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Trin
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 240):
But they would not cache map data somewhere you haven't been, or somewhere you haven't been lately, and a data connection oversea (to download the maps to cache them) is unlikely anyway.

I can't speak for other devices, but my Google Maps app on my iPhone allows you to navigate to any map location in the world, and cache data for it offline. It does not require you to have been/be in the area you are looking at.
 
hivue
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 247):
I would like to hear what would be the corresponding scenario in a mechanical failure scenario (that the FO's phone gets switched on).

FO forgets to switch his phone off (or accidentally turns it on), then the mechanical failure occurs.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
bond007
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:18 pm

Quoting Trin (Reply 250):
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 240):
But they would not cache map data somewhere you haven't been, or somewhere you haven't been lately, and a data connection oversea (to download the maps to cache them) is unlikely anyway.

I can't speak for other devices, but my Google Maps app on my iPhone allows you to navigate to any map location in the world, and cache data for it offline. It does not require you to have been/be in the area you are looking at.

Yes, actually on my Android I just switched off the data connection and I easily have enough cached maps at a resolution high enough to steer me in the right direction from anywhere in North or South America, all the way to India, and much more detailed resolution within a few thousand miles of my last position.


Jimbo
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Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:33 pm

IMO, this discussion about the size of the cache on handheld, GPS equipped mobiles is trying to solve a non problem.
If the a/c is flyable with no comms, no high tech nav systems, and at least one non-incapacitated pilot in control, there is no problem bringing the a/c home if that is the pilot's wish.
That was discussed earlier.
For instance, just stay high enough to be seen by one of the Malaysian or Thai military radars, fly counter clockwise triangular patterns and wait for the cavalry to arrive and show you the way home.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 227):
At this time all these info seems like a desperate attempt to fit something to current data.

I'd be amazed if the amount of unusable fuel in a 777 wasn't considerably more than the oil used/stored in the engines. Since it was seen by a ship in the area I'd guess it more likely came from the bilge water of one of the ships in the area now.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:43 pm

Due to more surface area of glass in the cockpit and the shape of it, wouldn't it be more likely for a cell phone to connect to a ground tower from the cockpit rather than the cabin?

I think the investigators will eventally determine that more devices attempted to connect to a ground tower at some point during the flight. As it stands now if the current "breaking news" is correct that the FOs phone 1) was disconnected from the cellular network before takeoff 2) the FOs phone tried to connect to a tower during the cross over malaysia and 3) that the FOs phone was the only device onboard to attempt to connect to a ground tower, lends me to the belief that the FO and his phone were in the cockpit at the time of the attempted phone handshake. That he probably was alive and not locked out of the cockpit.

Which brings up a question, did the plane descended to 5000 ft to avoid radar or was it an attempt to make a cell call due to a loss of all communication? The plane didn't actually avoid radar so that might no be te reason for flying low. Satcom was apparently working, so if the FO was trying to reach someone due to whatever befelled the plane, why didn't he use that? I feel sad for the families. This mystery has so many plausble theories and each one has so many holes that i keep thinking in circles. Only one sequence of events will actually fit in the end.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 246):
The actual EVIDENCE is the wreckage.

That is what you call hard evidence.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 246):
satellite pings, doppler data and radar data

These are circumstantial evidence.

In some circles, you can be convicted using circumstantial evidence.  

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 246):
The actual EVIDENCE is the wreckage

I would agree that actual wreckage would be (probably) the most persuasive evidence.

That doesn't mean that other stuff isn't evidence. If no wreckage is ever found, which is possible, the best evidence for what happened may remain radar and other data.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 252):
Yes, actually on my Android I just switched off the data connection and I easily have enough cached maps at a resolution high enough to steer me in the right direction from anywhere in North or South America, all the way to India, and much more detailed resolution within a few thousand miles of my last position.

That's not how Google Maps works for me at all. In airplane mode I get a blank map only a few km from my position. Some of the map around where I frequent is in detail, but out of the city you only see major roads, and then further out it's just blank.

Apparently there is a way to cache specific maps in Google Maps on Android: https://support.google.com/gmm/answer/2650218?hl=en

But yeah, doubt anyone in a 777 would rely on smartphone GPS for navigation.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
65mustang
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:16 pm

So apparently Malaysian authorities simply pulled the phone records from the phone providers and saw that there was no calls or messages sent. With a disaster of this magnitude i would have figured the investigators would have been more technically thorough and search for data showing tower/ cell handshakes and contact other companies about their towers and what data they might have. They should looking at all towers along the path during the time mh370 was low and passing by. Some pax may have had burners or a borrowed cell phone. The Malaysian investigators need a different mindset and they need it now. The need one that digs deeper and finds clues that are right under their nose.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 248):
What right turns?

The offsets show aircraft moving away from the satellite on the pings marked "possible turn". As the satellite is to the west of the plane, that suggests it turned away from the satellite, not towards it. Same with the known earlier turn. And one of the Chinese press conference slides also shows a looped turn westwards - a right turn through more than 180 degrees, rather than a left turn westwards.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 248):
The one chart of published Doppler data consists of 10 discrete measurements at 10 instants in time over an 8 hour flight.
Sometimes the Doppler is not what the Inmarsat model expected. So, what is their model?. Does it contain 2, 3, 10 or 77 turns? I have no idea. You are a scientist. Welcome to the world of commercial data secrecy!

In my humble opinion, the Doppler data remains a mystery until fully described because they should not have seen the variations they saw if the a/c nav systems and AES worked right. So I admit I must be missing something but I don't know what.

Well, Inmarsat seem to have assumed that they were seeing aircraft speed + satellite speed, and if it led them to the recent ocean pings, they were pretty good. If those ocean pings really are from the plane, and the fact they seem to have stopped raises my priors on that.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 248):
Sorry I can't be more helpful.

No problem! I appreciate your response.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting Trin (Reply 250):
I can't speak for other devices, but my Google Maps app on my iPhone allows you to navigate to any map location in the world, and cache data for it offline. It does not require you to have been/be in the area you are looking at.

Only devices with iOS6 and later with standalone Google Maps have this feature. Android devices had this feature even before. You could always buy TomTom app which stores all maps on device, it takes about 1.5Gb.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 258):
That's not how Google Maps works for me at all. In airplane mode I get a blank map only a few km from my position. Some of the map around where I frequent is in detail, but out of the city you only see major roads, and then further out it's just blank.

I don't know how relevant this line of enquiry is to the case of MH370, but I can confirm that Google Maps (on an iPhone) does cache maps of places you have never visited to allow navigation.

In January this year, I did extensive travelling in remote parts of sub-Saharan West Africa. I had no phone access because I had no global roaming (in any case there were no phone towers in many of these areas), and I only had internet access on some evenings where I was staying. Each evening where possible, using wifi, I would load the base maps of the areas I would travel for the next day or two.

Then, with no phone access (but NOT on airplane mode), I was able to navigate very precisely everywhere I went.

It is entirely conceivable that someone could cache the base maps of a flight beforehand and use it to follow the flight path. What I don't know, because I have never tried, is whether it could be done in airplane mode. But it can certainly be done without access to any mobile phone towers.
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 256):
That is what you call hard evidence.

And even "hard" evidence sometimes isn't as hard as it looks. I don't think there's a categorical distinction myself - or, at any rate, I don't make one. There's plenty of stuff we regard as "fact" because the evidence is so good, yet none of it is "hard". That's why I keep banging on about Bayesian probabilities, though probably (heh) nobody cares but me  
 
Desh
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 234):

Thanks !

Does seem like we are well beyond specs on the water immersion front. Not sure how 5000 psi static translates to sea water at that depth (long time out of engineering school I am afraid). But at the same time we did recover the AF447 blank box , so I guess there help and I bet there are significant margins built into something like that.
"History is merely a list of surprises. It can only prepare us to be surprised yet again." - Kurt Vonnegut
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:40 pm

OK so the caching strategy varies and in some cases the cache could be quite extensive, if the tiles were loaded. Actually tiles is an antiquated term, Google Maps used to load raster tiles but now it's all vector graphics I believe. Anyhow to be fair, there's not much that the map would tell you over the sea. How did we get to this topic, do we really think someone in a 777 would try navigating with a smartphone? If you've got a 777 and zero navigation, something has gone terribly wrong, you're not going to whip out your smartphone....

[Edited 2014-04-14 15:40:35]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:49 pm

Quoting desh (Reply 264):
Does seem like we are well beyond specs on the water immersion front. Not sure how 5000 psi static translates to sea water at that depth (long time out of engineering school I am afraid). But at the same time we did recover the AF447 blank box , so I guess there help and I bet there are significant margins built into something like that.

Take the water immersion specs with a grain of salt (or litre of salt water?), AF447 recovered recorder was readable after years. We're not really near the depth limit (assuming it is where they think it is). As long as it wasn't punctured or physically destroyed, I think they could recover the data after many many many years. Even if all the supporting hardware is destroyed, as long as the flash chips are intact, they could remove them carefully. If they're unpowered they wouldn't care about sea water, they're sealed. As long as they're intact - withstood the impact, withstood the pressure, good to go. If they're physically broken and water got in, that's not good, so let's hope for the best, eh?
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:49 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 260):
Well, Inmarsat seem to have assumed that they were seeing aircraft speed + satellite speed, and if it led them to the recent ocean pings, they were pretty good. If those ocean pings really are from the plane, and the fact they seem to have stopped raises my priors on that.

I learned a long time ago to question anything I don't understand (even If I might as a result look stupid) and not just agree with assumptions or results that people are not willing to explain rationally and convincingly.

RTDs have clearly worked although I remain curious as to where and by whom they were actually measured, particularly if the pings are exactly on the final RTD ring (I have not checked). Very precise RTD measurements are done in other systems designed for tracking but usually not very precisely in systems just designed for communication. As for Doppler, I remain on the side line as explained before.

By what method, the current search area was actually arrived at, I am not really sure. Remember SAR first searched in several other areas. How important were updated computations of fuel burn due to what may have happened in the early part of the flight?

Yes, pings detected by Ocean Shields look very promising (assuming there is absolutely no doubt that all SAR partners are really sharing the same and unique goal of successful recovery).
 
11Bravo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 256):
These are circumstantial evidence.

Um, no. Those things would be physical evidence. Circumstantial evidence would be evidence based on circumstance.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 267):

I learned a long time ago to question anything I don't understand (even If I might as a result look stupid) and not just agree with assumptions or results that people are not willing to explain rationally and convincingly.

Well, me too  

But I'm also happy to deal with provisional data and/or inferences, as long as I remember to keep tabs on the degree of uncertainty they come with  

So let me rephrase: given that at least one possible interpretation of the BFO data is two right turns (which at least that Chinese slide seems to agree with as well) - is there any technical reason why a pilot might choose a 180 degree + turn to change direction?
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 269):
is there any technical reason why a pilot might choose a 180 degree + turn to change direction?

In single-engine aircraft, especially old ones where a lot of weight is rotated, the torque on the aircraft from the propellor makes it easy to roll in one direction and difficult to roll in the other.

Completely irrelevant here though. I can't think of a good reason. Perhaps buying time while you figure things out.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
WarrenPlatts
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 226):
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 220): This would seem to falsify the getting lost hypothesis....

What getting lost hypothesis ?
Quoting nupogodi (Reply 224):
Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 220):Actually, I've been informed by a reliable source (my daughter) that the GPSs on smart phones still work, even if you're in an out of service area, so even if they lost all navigation on the 777, they would be able to use their smart phones to find their way back. This would seem to falsify the getting lost hypothesis....

Technically she is correct (the best kind of correct!), GPS would have no trouble. Map graphics are streamed over a data connection though. You would need a specific map application that *stores* map data on the device. None of the default ones on Android, iOS, Windows Phone etc do. Totally possible that you'd get a nice GPS fix and even place it on a map. Nothing weird about that. But unless you were specifically using an application that used up gigabytes of your valuable flash storage for the unlikely "GPS fix but no data connection" scenario... Neither here nor there, really.

r

Quoting Trin:
You will not find the cockpit of a commercial airliner WITHOUT paper charts and maps always to hand in it.

The hypothesis is that a software glitch destroyed all of the B777's navigational aids, except for the magnetic compass, which is situated in an old fashioned glass centered in the upper cockpit. So it would be a scenario with pilots fully in control, but without malicious intent. They would be trying to make it home, but failed because they got lost, a la Amelia Earhart. But if you've got a combination of paper charts, plus smart phone GPS lat/long data, even if all the electronic navigation equipment on the 777 was down for some very weird reason, you would still be able to gauge your ground speed, and find a way home. That they did not find their way home entails that the "lost" hypothesis must be false....

[Edited 2014-04-14 17:03:16]
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 269):
is there any technical reason why a pilot might choose a 180 degree + turn to change direction?

At about the point the transponder was disabled (neutral term), the programmed route required a right turn to 040 degrees. There are at least two possibilities (and probably more):
1. The A/P or the PF had commenced the turn, then all hell broke loose technically and by the time control was recovered the turn was 180 degrees plus.
2. The transponder was deliberately disabled after the programmed turn had commenced, leaving SSR under the impression that the plane was following the filed route, and the PF then simply continued the turn rather than rolling back into a left turn.

There are certainly other possibilities - Pihero / Zeke?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 271):
That they did not find their way home entails that the "getting lost" hypothesis must be false....

It was your hypothesis ....
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 269):
is there any technical reason why a pilot might choose a 180 degree + turn to change direction?

In the rather famous Sioux City accident, the pilots learned that they could more easily turn into one direction than into the other, and accordingly did >180 degrees turns.

But I can't see any connection between UA232 and MH370 at this moment.

----
By the way, tomnod.com is still updated with newer satellite imagery. The green arrow shows the place I've just searched on Tomnod. Below, Google Maps have been updated with rather cloudy satellite pics.


----

David

[Edited 2014-04-14 16:56:31]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
747megatop
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:41 am

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 257):
That doesn't mean that other stuff isn't evidence.

I am not saying that the other stuff isn't evidence. The other stuff is evidence of the fact that MH 370 flew back over the Malay peninsula and then flew on for 5+ hours EITHER in a northerly track OR southerly track; that is all my point was. The evidence that the aircraft went down in the Indian Oceean off Perth and why it went down are the actual wreckage and FDR/CVR.

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 257):
If no wreckage is ever found, which is possible, the best evidence for what happened may remain radar and other data

Agreed. For this sake i hope the wreckage is found.
 
panampaul
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:04 am

The Joint Agency Coordination Centre reported that the Bluefin 21 returned to the surface 10 hours early after hitting its maximum depth.

It will resume the search Tuesday.

Hunt for Flight 370 Hits Hurdle As Underwater Vehicle Resurfaces - Searchers to Study Data from Submarine, Will Redeploy Tuesdayp

Quote:
The search for the missing Malaysia Airlines entered a new phase on Monday as the quest for pings was abandoned and an underwater vehicle was deployed to examine the floor of the southern Indian Ocean.

Australian authorities reported Tuesday that the autonomous underwater vehicle tasked the search of the sea floor hit a hurdle on its first mission and returned to the surface....

..
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:58 am

NYT story on how not everyone is thrilled with China's search efforts. When Malaysia is criticizing you....

"In the first week of the search, China released satellite photographs purportedly showing wreckage in the South China Sea. The objects, however, turned out to be unrelated debris. The claim eventually elicited a rebuke from Malaysian officials that China had wasted the time of other nations looking for the missing Boeing 777-200."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/15/wo...urting-more-than-helping.html?_r=0

[Edited 2014-04-14 19:01:08]
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:21 am

I have been following Duncan Steel's very informative and well informed analysis of satellite pings for some time now.

In his latest article, he says the following (and I quote selectively from a very long and reasoned discussion):

"Up until now I have had no reason, in terms of physics and aircraft performance, to favour a southern path over a northern one, or vice-versa. Now I do. Noting that the southern route shown above is longer (of course) than the northern route – they last for the same length of time, but the northern one is at 421 knots, the southern at 481 knots, so that it’s about 14 per cent longer – I thought that the southern route might be excludable by dint of there being insufficient fuel to complete it.

... (However,) my present working position must be that – subject to the various assumptions that have perforce been necessary – MH370 most likely took the indicated northern route, and therefore would have crashed in the vicinity of Almaty."

I recommend reading his article and the (huge number of) comments that can be accessed with a click.

http://www.duncansteel.com/archives/date/2014/04/12
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 277):
NYT story on how not everyone is thrilled with China's search efforts. When Malaysia is criticizing you....

Granted China is not meeting everyone's expectations.

But let's see whats going on with Malaysia's aviation sector and MAS.

No structure to investigate an aviation accident.
Flight crew invites strangers in cockpit.
Crew smoke in cockpit, apparently allowed over 10k feet.
Lone pilot allowed in cockpit, most countries require to have a cabin crew present when one pilot is out.
ULBs/Batteries are not stored properly.
Critical evidence was not secured immediately (Flight SIM)
Cannot identify who was in contact with ATC.
Cannot tell what were the last words.
Cannot tell how much fuel it has.

I am sure we will learn more as this investigation progresses.

These are standards and simple investigative steps any country should be able to follow.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Desh
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 266):
so let's hope for the best, eh?

Yep
"History is merely a list of surprises. It can only prepare us to be surprised yet again." - Kurt Vonnegut
 
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Dalavia
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:36 am

One of the linked articles in the comments section of Duncan Steel's page surprised me in that I had not come across this information previously (and I am one of the hardy souls who has read every post in every part of this long thread).

The link below (which is in Chinese, which might explain why it has not been picked up by any mainstream media) reveals the following information in the words of the person who posted it:

"Dr. Yuang has identified what appears to be a 30 km long by 2000 m wide plume of smoke in a remote, mountainous, snowy and forested area of Central Asia (near the Beshtash Valley in Kyrgyzstan) from a satellite image taken at about the time MH370 would have run out of fuel and in the vicinity of the Inmarsat 00:11 northern ping arc. The suspected plume is not visible in an image of the same area taken by a second satellite about six hours later. There is also satellite detection of an elevated thermal level at the suspected plume source and subsequent higher water levels in the river draining the adjacent valley. This seems to me consistent with a short-lived, snow-extinguished forest fire caused by the crash of a huge plane, albeit one without fuel."

I am not trying to give credence to this article, because all I know about it is what the article itself claims, but I am including it here (a) because it is consistent with Duncan Steel's mathematical analysis of the most likely track, and (b) in the absence of confirmed physical evidence of MH370 in the Indian Ocean, it is probably still premature to exclude any possibility that MH370 took the northern track.

This is the link: http://blog.sciencenet.cn/blog-612468-777530.html

I should also note that Dr Yuang quotes the source of his information as Dr Yaoqiu Kuang, a professor at the State Key Laboratory of Isotope Geochemistry of the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

[Edited 2014-04-14 19:42:03]
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 279):
Flight crew invites strangers in cockpit.

I wonder, if anything, what will be the consequences of the photos being released of the cockpit visit? Moreover, I wonder what MH will do, if anything, to the Captain of that flight assuming he is still flying for MH? I would think the Captain would at least be asked "what were you thinking?" at the very least...
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bond007
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 265):
OK so the caching strategy varies and in some cases the cache could be quite extensive, if the tiles were loaded. Actually tiles is an antiquated term, Google Maps used to load raster tiles but now it's all vector graphics I believe. Anyhow to be fair, there's not much that the map would tell you over the sea. How did we get to this topic, .....

We got to this topic because you said....

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 224):
You would need a specific map application that *stores* map data on the device. None of the default ones on Android, iOS, Windows Phone etc do.

They do ...raster/vector/tiles, who cares, so let's move on...


Jimbo
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YVRLTN
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 281):
I am not trying to give credence to this article, because all I know about it is what the article itself claims, but I am including it here (a) because it is consistent with Duncan Steel's mathematical analysis of the most likely track, and (b) in the absence of confirmed physical evidence of MH370 in the Indian Ocean, it is probably still premature to exclude any possibility that MH370 took the northern track.

But in so doing he is totally discounting all the work Inmarsat have done, peer reviewed by the NTSB, AAIB and whoever else. Then there is the small matter of pings detected by the Ocean Shied in an area consistent with the southern route, so if its in Kyrgyzstan, what were those?

I know which one I buy the most.

Couple of musings...

First, there were stories in the beginning, maybe propagated by the fishy twitter guy, about the cargo scanner being broken in KUL and all flights departing without cargo as a result, except one flight - MH370 and also CCTV footage of the pilots setting of the metal detectors. Was either of these ever confirmed or denied?

Second, would this be possible in a 777 or are their redundancies since this incident so it cant happen? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390
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coolian2
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:43 am

Quoting Dalavia (Reply 281):

So has he told anyone who can spare an hour to have a nosey by plane?
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 284):
Second, would this be possible in a 777 or are their redundancies since this incident so it cant happen?

Shouldn't have been possible on the 111 either. Shitty maintenance makes anything possible. But explosive decompression is survivable and doesn't explain the accident flight path as we know it. Couldn't tell you about 777 windows specifically, but once you start considering what shoddy maintenance could have done to the plane, the possibilities are endless and it's better to look at the effects. If explosive decompression is what you're talking about, it doesn't quite fit because it wouldn't cause the transponder and ACARS to stop sending and it wouldn't cause the aircraft to fly an unusual route to nowhere.
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:49 am

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 276):
The Joint Agency Coordination Centre reported that the Bluefin 21 returned to the surface 10 hours early after hitting its maximum depth.

It will resume the search Tuesday.

Similar to what I read:

"The Bluefin-21 was launched from Australian Defence Vessel Ocean Shield off the Western Australian coast last night but turned back six hours into its first 16 hour mission, the Sydney Morning Herald reports.

The drone had reportedly reached its maximum depth of 4.5km, the Joint Agency Coordination Centre said in a statement on Tuesday.

"After completing around six hours of its mission, Bluefin-21 exceeded its operating depth limit of 4500 metres and its built-in safety feature returned it to the surface,” JACC stated.

"The six hours of data gathered by the Autonomous Underwater Vehicle is currently being extracted and analysed."

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...ta-being-probed-for-malaysia-plane




The longer this search goes on the more difficult it appears to be becoming... What other equipment out there exists that could be used and is more capable than the Bluefin-21? Maybe the Chinese could use their initiative and deep pockets and build a vehicle capable of such missions? If the wreckage is at the deeper parts of the search area something will have to give. Also, I assume the side scan sonar could detect the wreckage if it was under silt? How deep is the silt and could it cover all of the debris? How would the wreckage be identified if it is under silt? Is something on the Bluefin-21 able to stir up silt on the sea floor to see what is there or under it? And, if so, there would be a massive area that would need to be checked... So many questions and limitations to this SAR  

[Edited 2014-04-14 21:51:09]
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nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:55 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 287):
What other equipment out there exists that could be used and is more capable than the Bluefin-21?

The REMUS 6000 is a certified badass. It can go to 6000m, it's got 3 types of sonar, it's even got freakin' WiFi. Can go up to 5kts, and last up to 22 hours. It's a beast.

Who has them? Dunno. People. You and I could probably buy one, probably couldn't afford it though.
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NAV30
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 287):
What other equipment out there exists that could be used and is more capable than the Bluefin-21?

A British nuclear submarine is on its way to help. But I doubt that it will be able to go down to anything like 4,500m., my guess is that less than 1,000m. would be it's limit. However, we can rely on it having very good sonar etc.

What I can't understand is why the smaller sub is being sent out so far from the likely search area? I recall that, not long ago, the search team published five or six 'fixes' (obtained by pings) within about 10km. of each other - I wonder what happened to them?
 
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:07 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 290):
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=38144

Indeed. People should let me write marketing copy, I think a few people briefly entertained the idea of buying an ROV for a second there.
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:10 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 288):
The REMUS 6000 s a certified badass. It can go to 6000m, it's got 3 types of sonar, it's even got freakin' WiFi. Can go up to 5kts, and last up to 22 hours. It's a beast.

Goodbye Bluefin-21, welcome REMUS 6000!
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:12 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 288):
The REMUS 6000 is a certified badass. It can go to 6000m, it's got 3 types of sonar, it's even got freakin' WiFi. Can go up to 5kts, and last up to 22 hours. It's a beast.

Who has them? Dunno. People. You and I could probably buy one, probably couldn't afford it though.

The owner of this / these bad-boys needs to come on-board... I wonder if this is being looked into? Could this SAR ever depend on being handled privately, by the likes of those who found the Titanic?
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 293):
I wonder if this is being looked into?

If the price is right, WHOI will lend you some and even operate them for you.

They were used in the AF447 search.
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:19 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 293):
The owner of this / these bad-boys needs to come on-board... I wonder if this is being looked into? Could this SAR ever depend on being handled privately, by the likes of those who found the Titanic?

I think they are looking at it:

Quote:
Question: Could we find that the answer [inaudible] go down as deep as the ocean floor and is there anything else that can go deeper if it turns out that the ocean floor is deeper than 4000 kilometres?

Angus Houston: Well, the area we're searching we know that it's probably around 4,500 metres. In fact from the imagery I've seen, most of the search area is on the right side of 4,500 for the operation of the vehicle. But I must stress it is at the limit of its capability as soon as it gets to 4,500 metres. It can't go any deeper than that.

Question: But is there another vehicle [indistinct]?

Angus Houston: Yep. Yeah, and essentially there are vehicles that can go a lot deeper than that. They are usually much larger vehicles; they do recovery as well and obviously those sorts of possibilities will be looked at—well, they have be. They are being looked at as we speak. But a lot will depend on the outcome of what we find when we go down and take a look.
http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/interviews/2014/april/tr009.aspx
 
wilco737
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:20 am

Part 55 now available:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55 (by wilco737 Apr 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks.

wilco737
  
 
decoder
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:21 am

Edit: moved to next thread.

[Edited 2014-04-14 22:27:38]
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:22 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 294):
If the price is right, WHOI will lend you some and even operate them for you.

They were used in the AF447 search.

Yeah, I just read this regarding AF447: "The main tools for the search were three Remus 6000 autonomous underwater vehicles".

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...missing-wreckage-was-found-5583302

I know one area where these beasts are needed badly, and three would be much better than the current one that can only go down to 4500... I wonder what this company are thinking regarding MH370 knowing that they have the right kind of tools? Would they be waiting for a phone call and a cheque? Perhaps they have already been contacted?

Or..........

Now that the Remus 6000 is being discussed on a.net and appears to be what is needed in the search for MH370 as they helped find AF447 - the media will be on to it once they check in this thread  
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YVRLTN
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 54

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 286):
If explosive decompression is what you're talking about, it doesn't quite fit because it wouldn't cause the transponder and ACARS to stop sending and it wouldn't cause the aircraft to fly an unusual route to nowhere.

I agree, but just trying to go along the path Pihero and Kaiarahi are trying to guide us down away from suicidal crew, if a similar thing happened, I suppose it could be possible to punch in some waypoints to keep the aircraft flying so all hands are on deck to deal with the situation and they did descend in view of landing. But then something happened and they went right up to cruise again. I really did not intend to add to the speculation, but the point is shoddy mx is not unheard off at respected airlines, my example was BA and this aircraft had been in for recent mx IIRC.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 186):
And a shout out to rcair1 for his summaries in the first 30 threads.

Yes, we need another one of these to start the next thread please.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 68):
Not one of the posters who had qualified the flight crew as grossly negligent / incompetent showed up on the thread. In the meantime, until the final report was published, the families of the flight crew continued to have to live with a public perception, fanned by a.net, that their husbands/fathers had killed themselves and others by sheer incompetence

In fairness, while I agree with all your posts, in this case it should be mentioned that the F/O knew things were wrong and told the captain more than once and advised to go around. He did not until it was far too late and could not. While that is not grossly negligent / incompetent, it was bad CRM best case and AFAIK any call to go around automatically means go around regardless if the PF agrees or not.

However, your point stands and while I have also been guilty of it, we should not accuse dead people who can not defend themselves until confirmed otherwise.

Moving forward in these threads, I'm wondering if we should now just have a news thread solely for fresh news updates pertaining to the search and any other technical releases and a discussion on an NEW developments pertaining to them and a separate thread for speculation, conspiracy theories and discussions on atheism, mental illness, psychology, politics, fictional data based on fictional hypothesis, the corealis effect etc?
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