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doulasc
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Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:43 am

How many gates did the Pan Am worldport originally have when finished in 1963,not counting the back add on to accommodate
Boeing 747s. When the worldport opened they had Boeing 707s and DC-8s along with DC-6B and DC-7Cs.
 
alfa164
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:01 am

Originally, 9 gates

"There is a special place in hell for whoever decided to tear down T3"
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aajfksjubklyn
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 1):

I could not agree more. That building was unique, striking and full of great memories and history of commercial aviation. No reason a good architect could have saved the structure and integrated it into the new 'sterile concept' currently proposed.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 1):
a special place in hell

Kind of like the T3 immigration hall?  
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:59 pm

I agree with most everyone else, the building was a striking piece of architecture. I was terribly disappointed when the STW campaign failed. For my birthday I actually spent $200 to drive up to JFK, and fly back to Philly so I could fly through the Worldport. Many will go on and on about how it was obsolete and how Delta needed the building gone for expansion, and I too can go on and on counter arguing but this has been discussed before.

Fact is, building is gone and it will surely be missed. Future generations will look back and wonder why we took such marvels for granted, and disposed of them like trash.
RIP Worldport.
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william
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:45 pm

The last picture I saw was that the saucer section was gone. Does anyone have the latest pics?

And how did the road reach the new addition in the back when it was open? I have seached for pics and do not see how cars got behind the saucer.

[Edited 2014-04-14 11:47:09]
 
deltabobo
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:46 pm

This was taken on Saturday from the AirTrain approaching T4.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:50 pm

The 70s addition was kinda cool. If you appreciate the 70s architecture.

You drove under the saucer

The 3 jetways on each side went over the roadways with windows (last time I went thru there the windows were blacked out, not sure why. Until recently, they were not) The jetways then connected to actual jetways once past the roadways.

When you got past the saucer, you could go upstairs for departures or down for arrivals. Both roads did a loop. One underneath the building for arrivals. One in the middle of the building for departures.

As you came into the middle of the building, domestic departures were on the right. The road then made a sharp 90 left turn. Along this turn to the left was a ramp that took you up to rooftop parking.

Another 90 turn and on the right hand side was international departures. (Both doorways changed domestic/international/business elite very frequently)

You then went down the ramp and under the saucer on the other side where you merged with traffic from the arrivals area.

Then under the three jetways and out in front of the saucer.


People always talk about the Saucer. But as a kid that grew up in the micro machines era of the 1980s, the entire building was totally freakin awesome!

Most of it is gone now.
 
jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting deltabobo (Reply 6):

Heartbreaking photo... While I forgive Delta for-well- being a business, I do not forgive them for defacing such a historical structure in the years prior to it's demise.
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UA444
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:03 pm

It's a shame they didn't just build an all-new building that looked like the WorldPort, but more modern and spacious. Will there ever be new from the ground up terminals at JFK again?
 
L1011Lover
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:28 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
The 70s addition was kinda cool. If you appreciate the 70s architecture.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
People always talk about the Saucer. But as a kid that grew up in the micro machines era of the 1980s, the entire building was totally freakin awesome!

  

Couldn't agree more!

As much as I love the original 1960's structure with the saucer, it always seemed I was one of the very few people who appreciated the entire building! I think the entire WORLDPORT (which it only became after the 1970's expansion of the terminal) was a masterpiece of achitecture!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
allegiantflyer
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:54 pm

Delta knew what they were getting into when they purchased the Worldport, they could have done updates to the terminal, but they decided not to. I would of rather have had a different airline Purchase the port and do something with it rather than tear the entire thing down and start from starch. A little Virgin terminal with VX and VA combined would have been cute, something like that.
 
lpdal
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:08 am

Here are some pictures of the WorldPort intact in 2012, I was lucky enough to fly through it during its final months on FLL-JFK-FLL documented here: DL EconomyComfort-Better Than Economy? FLL-JFK-FLL (by LPDAL Oct 20 2012 in Trip Reports)

Would anyone like me to rewrite this report? It has formatting issues making the pictures way too large and as such has very little comments. If there is some interest please let me know and I will happily make a new report.  https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5185/13859904744_b1e808971f_c.jpg
Exterior of WorldPort in October 2012.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3797/13859904004_9bbf17892a_c.jpg
Interior of WorldPort in October 2012.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7397/13859531015_4d58fdda2b_b.jpg
WorldPort Delta Checkin desk in October 2012

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3705/13859558453_34afd6a227_c.jpg
WorldPort viewed from a Delta MD-88 in October 25.

Please let me know if there is any interest of a rewritten version of this report!  

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:08 am

Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
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william
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
The 70s addition was kinda cool. If you appreciate the 70s architecture.

You drove under the saucer

The 3 jetways on each side went over the roadways with windows (last time I went thru there the windows were blacked out, not sure why. Until recently, they were not) The jetways then connected to actual jetways once past the roadways.

When you got past the saucer, you could go upstairs for departures or down for arrivals. Both roads did a loop. One underneath the building for arrivals. One in the middle of the building for departures.

As you came into the middle of the building, domestic departures were on the right. The road then made a sharp 90 left turn. Along this turn to the left was a ramp that took you up to rooftop parking.

Another 90 turn and on the right hand side was international departures. (Both doorways changed domestic/international/business elite very frequently)

You then went down the ramp and under the saucer on the other side where you merged with traffic from the arrivals area.

Then under the three jetways and out in front of the saucer.


People always talk about the Saucer. But as a kid that grew up in the micro machines era of the 1980s, the entire building was totally freakin awesome!

Most of it is gone now.

Thank you JFKganyc, that's what I was looking for. You don't see many pics of cars going to the back.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:05 am

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t31.0-8/1267691_4775214156799_1576515420_o.jpg
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:11 am

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31.0-8/1149237_623361031020831_1184735639_o.jpg
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:44 am

World port served its glory days, but we can't go preserving every little building on JFK land. TWA terminal is nice to look at but serves no purpose today other than taking some valuable real estate.

Change is painful, but without it, we won't have progress
 
SXDFC
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:32 am

Does anyone have any pictures of the gate area ( Where the 747s are parked in the above picture ) during the 1980s and 1990s? Was always curious as to how Pan Am had it decorated..

To those who really appreciated the Worldport, knew it was time to put it out of its misery. Unfortunately the era in which the Worldport was designed around has been buried by terrorism, bankruptcy, and many more things. The last and final time that I was in T3 ( OCT 2012 ) she looked tired and rundown. The Worldport should be remembered as a beautiful icon that changed aviation during the jet age, rather than a rundown building clinging to life.
 
alfa164
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:42 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 17):
World port served its glory days, but we can't go preserving every little building on JFK land. TWA terminal is nice to look at but serves no purpose today other than taking some valuable real estate.

I realize that T5 was saved despite JetBlue's kicking and screaming, and may very well find a valuable use in the future. That fact that no one has had enough imagination (or money) to put it to use already is not a valid indictment for saving it.

T3 could have been put to excellent use - if that same imagination and money had been spent on it. Instead, Delta's imagination went as far as tacking en extension onto an already depressing, overlong concourse a T4...
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jfklganyc
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:34 am

Im pretty sure they are in final negotiations to make T5 a boutique hotel.

An operator from the standard hotel in the city was mentioned.

I posted an article a few months back.

Anyone have more news on this?

Long story short...the building will likely have good use in the not so distant future
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
Im pretty sure they are in final negotiations to make T5 a boutique hotel.

I heard for whatever reason the idea was scrapped. It does seem like a good use for the terminal. It would be nice to have it open to the public on a daily basis.
 
oneskyjet
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:49 am

That building was truly awful. Good riddance.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:03 am

There were logistical problems with the areas in between T3 and the other terminals next to it... it wasn't just the building falling apart. They could not have planes going in and out of the alleys at the same time, with the new terminal, they should be able to
 
alfa164
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:58 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
There were logistical problems with the areas in between T3 and the other terminals next to it... it wasn't just the building falling apart. They could not have planes going in and out of the alleys at the same time, with the new terminal, they should be able to

There was no problem between T3 and T4 - there should be plenty of space there. There was a definite problem between T2 and T3.

There is also a problem between T2 and T1... and T2 is a disaster. Restoring T3 and getting rid of T2 would have made ultimate sense, in my humble opinion.
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jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting Reply 22):
Good riddance

While I respect your opinion, structurally, that building was nowhere nearly as awful as others put it. I saw it first hand and the flying saucer part was not entirely flawed. It had it's problems like every terminal does- but given it's 50 year history, battered by storms (Sandy), suffered through years of neglect by Delta, it did amazingly well, while remaining aesthetically pleasing (for the most part). The building was architecturally striking compared to the other terminals at JFK, but unfortunately, Delta thought a parking lot would look better.

All good things must come to an end- and this was a very good thing. RIP Worldport....
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jetblue1965
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:23 pm

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 25):
while remaining aesthetically pleasing (for the most part).

Externally, perhaps. Internally, it looked worse than the PABT. The lighting used was ghastly, and pigeons treat it as their habitat.

The underground arrivals area looks even more dilapidated.

The clean-up of T2 can't come soon enough.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting deltabobo (Reply 6):

That my friends is a thing of beauty.

I just wish I could have swung the wrecking ball myself.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 27):
I just wish I could have swung the wrecking ball myself.

Yes Ms. Cyrus
 
alfa164
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 27):
That my friends is a thing of beauty.

I guess some people just love the looks of a parking lot...
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Viscount724
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting Reply 22):
That building was truly awful. Good riddance.

Agree. The customs/immigration area was horrible, cramped, dark and low ceilings. Many 3rd world airports are better. For it's first few years, the Pan Am terminal didn't even have customs/immigration facilities. Arriving flights used the International Arrivals Building next door and the aircraft then had to be towed to the PA terminal for departures.
 
jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 27):
That my friends is a thing of beauty

How can you even say that? Even as a casual aviation enthusiast, that parking lot was home to the birth of the 747 and saw the rise of aviation, and was the Ellis Island of air travel. If the building itself was of shoddy condition, for the love of god can you at least respect the history it kept through it's doors?
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Type-Rated
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:34 pm

If it were left up to our younger a.netters, we'd have all terminals at JFK torn down and built with shiny brand new hi-tech terminals that would last maybe 10 years and then those would be torn down for even newer shiny brand new hi-tech terminals, over and over again! And BTW, Apple would be the architect of the new buildings.
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csavel
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 17):
World port served its glory days, but we can't go preserving every little building on JFK land. TWA terminal is nice to look at but serves no purpose today other than taking some valuable real estate.
Quoting SXDFC (Reply 18):
To those who really appreciated the Worldport, knew it was time to put it out of its misery. Unfortunately the era in which the Worldport was designed around has been buried by terrorism, bankruptcy, and many more things. The last and final time that I was in T3 ( OCT 2012 ) she looked tired and rundown. The Worldport should be remembered as a beautiful icon that changed aviation during the jet age, rather than a rundown building clinging to life.

Couldn't agree more. For people who talk of trying to save it, I think retrofitting it to modern standards (Think modern sprinklers, asbestos abatement, who the *** knows what else) would be a Sisyphus like task, and the nature of the building meant that Customs, security and the like would be a zoo *no matter what*. For those who say a little money and a little imagination..., perhaps you are right, but then again, how many pax would've voted with their feet and gone to airlines serving T1 or T4? How many already did so? Did Delta really have the time or luxury to think of 'creative' solutions?

Now here is just my personal opinion, but of the three old "landmark" terminals the only one not torn down is the only one truly deserving of landmark status. Shame that the Sundome was torn down, but basically it was a sunny international style suburban bank branch. Sure the worldport looked kinda cool in a googie way, but seriously, all the people who talk about what a craphole JFK is, well they have to do something don't they?
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alfa164
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting csavel (Reply 33):
how many pax would've voted with their feet and gone to airlines serving T1 or T4?

How many people choose their airline based on the terminal? If they do, T3 must have been a big attraction; millions of passengers flew through it...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
The customs/immigration area was horrible, cramped, dark and low ceilings.

There was no need for customs/immigration to have stayed at T3; international arrivals at T4 solved that. T2 should be gone, and T3 could have become a superb transcontinental terminal.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:23 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 28):

ha so......not funny.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 29):

compared to a huge waste of money just for kicks and giggles?
this is the US, we have a government that loves being stupid and wasteful, lets not ask the businesses to fallow in the same stupid and wasteful foot steps.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 34):

There was no need for customs/immigration to have stayed at T3; international arrivals at T4 solved that. T2 should be gone, and T3 could have become a superb transcontinental terminal.

a billion dollar plus terminal for less than 20 flights a day?

You don't like money do you? honestly....I have never seen a person who wants to see it wasted so badly.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 34):
How many people choose their airline based on the terminal?

EXACTLY. You answered your own argument. As a public company, why should Delta spend more money to basically rebuild T3 when no data points to a terminal providing a revenue premium?

In other words, take all the "history" and crap out of it, don't make it personal, why is it s solid business decision?

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 31):
How can you even say that?

It was easy, the building was a complete and total crap hole. It was, by far, the worst terminal in the Delta network and one of the worst terminals in the world.

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 31):
If the building itself was of shoddy condition, for the love of god can you at least respect the history it kept through it's doors?

Its an airport terminal.
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting csavel (Reply 33):

Now here is just my personal opinion, but of the three old "landmark" terminals the only one not torn down is the only one truly deserving of landmark status.

Couldn't agree more! The TWA Flight Center is a stunning building. The Worldport reminded me of a subway station, especially in the '70's addition. It was no longer practical for modern air travel. I think the building itself was hideous.
 
jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 35):
It was an airport terminal

Quite, and this is an aviation forum. Now that we have the basics established, it's little kids like you that are going to be the demise of aviation as a unique concept. With all these modern, bland looking buildings, where is the creativity?

As a passenger terminal, I completely agree the building was obsolete. But if they tore down the 70's expansion and saved the saucer, they could've turned it into a museum or a connecting point between T2 and T4, while still getting their prestigious parking spaces. I, like other preservationists who campaigned to save it, agree that it would've been acceptable to replace it with a new building, but expanding T4 and turning it into a parking lot?
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jfklganyc
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting csavel (Reply 33):
how many pax would've voted with their feet and gone to airlines serving T1 or T4?

None. The most popular airport in NYC is LaGuardia. Go to the Central Terminal and find ANY terminal ANYwhere in the first or second world that is more disgusting. You will not

And the now #3 airline at JFK (A*A) has a palace. Yet, they were considerable larger (actually #1 at JFK) and held more market share when they had two crappy terminals connected by a band aid.

Sorry to burst the a.net bubble, but John Q Public (especially New Yorkers) will not make an airline purchase based on terminal, aircraft or, gasp, paint scheme unless it directly effects the amenities they will receive ie: someone may select B6 based on TVs; a premium passenger may choose a lie flat J class over a non-life flat J class.

T3, for all the woe expressed here, had a lounge for premium pax as does T2 and T4. It didn't stop them from grabbing most passengers. Lack of LHR flights did. Lack of a shuttle to ORD did. Lack of F class on RJs did. Lack of slots to add flights did.

They fixed those things and positioned themselves for #1. The new T4 is just the icing on the cake
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:33 am

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 37):
t's little kids like you that are going to be the demise of aviation as a unique concept. With all these modern, bland looking buildings, where is the creativity?

Yes, we are stupid. Shame on anyone for running a company profitably and keeping a handle on CAPEX. shame shame shame.

Losses and massive debt is for the cool kids like you.  
Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 37):

As a passenger terminal, I completely agree the building was obsolete. But if they tore down the 70's expansion and saved the saucer, they could've turned it into a museum or a connecting point between T2 and T4, while still getting their prestigious parking spaces. I, like other preservationists who campaigned to save it, agree that it would've been acceptable to replace it with a new building, but expanding T4 and turning it into a parking lot?

who cares about money. We should encourage companies to be as wasteful as the government in spending.

no you know what we should have done, used tax dollars to pay for it! I mean its just money. You know what, in the winter we should just burn cash to create heat too. Business logic, economics, finance, accounting, heck simple math is for losers.  


Sometimes seeing post like this really make me thankful for Delta's leaders. Not being complete and total idiots is very valuable to investors and employees. thankfully T3 is what is should, gone.
 
global2
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:35 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 17):
Change is painful, but without it, we won't have progress

Yes, I believe that was the very same argument used to tear down Penn Station. Is the rat-warren that replaced it your idea of progress? After all, it allowed the company that owned it to boost its bottom line--too bad they went bankrupt a few years later anyway.

Delta intentionally allowed T3 to fall into disrepair so they could claim they had no choice but to tear it down due to financial reasons. I know a former Pan Am employee that continued after Delta took over. As she puts it: "I went from white gloves to rubber gloves".
 
alfa164
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:13 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 35):
As a public company, why should Delta spend more money to basically rebuild T3 when no data points to a terminal providing a revenue premium?

Maybe because Delta claims to have a different culture, a respect for history, and a desire to differentiate itself from the "typical" US-based airlines. Maybe because they need - and claim they want - to distinguish their transcontinental product from the competition. But that is just advertising hype and PR fluff, isn't it? People like you - showing those claims of being "different" from the other airlines are just lip service - are the true voice of Delta. Richard Anderson = Robert Crandall. Right?

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 37):
Quite, and this is an aviation forum. Now that we have the basics established, it's little kids like you that are going to be the demise of aviation as a unique concept. With all these modern, bland looking buildings, where is the creativity?

        
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deltal1011man
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 41):
Maybe because Delta claims to have a different culture, a respect for history, and a desire to differentiate itself from the "typical" US-based airlines

its interesting that you say that, "you can't cling to the past if you want to create the future"

A line from one of Delta's commercials.

A respect for history doesn't mean they have to save every single thing from the past. If Delta thought they could have commanded a premium for a Tcon terminal, and have enough of that premium to cover the massive costs to basically re-build T3 then they would have done so.

but you yourself admit that airlines don't get a premium for terminals.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 41):
Maybe because they need - and claim they want - to distinguish their transcontinental product from the competition.

And they have been taking steps to do so. Changes in both the hard product and soft product, changes rolling out in the SkyClubs, and upgraded terminals in Seattle, New York-JFK and Los Angeles.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 41):
People like you - showing those claims of being "different" from the other airlines are just lip service - are the true voice of Delta

So the only way for this to be true is have a very costly terminal at JFK for tcons? How is it lip service? your saying that, compared to 5 years ago Delta hasn't improved its Tcon product? That they aren't continuing to do so? (along with AA, UA and B6)

you still didn't answer my question. I have yet to see a single reason why it would have been a good business decision.
 
jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 42):
Why it would've been a good business decision

Why? Because as I have previously stated, the building could've been used for other things aside from an airport while Delta still got their precious fancy parking lot. Nobody here is disagreeing Delta has stepped up their TCon product, it's incredible. But I only question Delta's imagination- or lack thereof- when it came to T3. They could've turned it into a connecting point between T2 and T4, filled it up with duty free shops, restaurants, and leased the building out to vendors. They could've turned it into one huge skyclub if they tweaked the roofing and the walls. The potential was there, I mean I, an 18 year old high school senior could see it, but how the businessmen and chief officers with all the resources they had, saw the only potential the structure had was a parking lot, is beyond me.
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anonms
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 43):
The potential was there, I mean I, an 18 year old high school senior could see it, but how the businessmen and chief officers with all the resources they had, saw the only potential the structure had was a parking lot, is beyond me.

Have you attempted to crunch the numbers? If not, then that would be why Delta's decision is beyond you.
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jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:02 pm

Just a few of the 96 photos I took in the two hours I was there for my flight...

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jeffh747
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting anonms (Reply 44):
Crunch the numbers

As a matter of fact I have. I have personally, and I've corroborated with fellow campaigners in the months leading towards the closure to determine the total cost of demolition, cutting off underground resources (fuel oil, electricity etc...) and the cost to remove the debris and implementation of required facilities (lighting, parking spaces, certifications etc) and determined it would've cost about three times as much than to demolish the 1970's addition and renovate the flying saucer into some sort of duty free/resturant/transfer sort of thing.
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DocLightning
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 1):
"There is a special place in hell for whoever decided to tear down T3"

I have to disagree. And I'm fully aware that this makes me a pariah.

T3 was an example of mid-century modern public architecture from the 1960's. At the time it was revolutionary and avant-garde, but it was not the truly unique piece of art that the TWA Saarinen terminal was. Now, a half century later, the building was delapidated, obsolete, and frankly ugly by modern standards. It wasn't up to the capacity or efficiency demands of the modern era of air travel, which is very different from the upscale market of air travel at the dawn of the jet and widebody age.

There are other, better examples of 1960's mid-century modern architecture that are in better repair and still better equipped to handle their current role as a public building. Rockefeller Center is one example.

There are new terminals (DXB, BKK, etc.) that are stunning examples of more recent architectural and structural advances. Massive tunnels of glass, sweeping vistas, stunning lighting effects... I'm a fan of the main hall at DEN, for example. Very artistic and iconic.

T3 was getting outdated in many ways. Onward and upward.
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TSS
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 46):
Quoting anonms (Reply 44):
Crunch the numbers

As a matter of fact I have. I have personally, and I've corroborated with fellow campaigners in the months leading towards the closure to determine the total cost of demolition, cutting off underground resources (fuel oil, electricity etc...) and the cost to remove the debris and implementation of required facilities (lighting, parking spaces, certifications etc) and determined it would've cost about three times as much than to demolish the 1970's addition and renovate the flying saucer into some sort of duty free/resturant/transfer sort of thing.

What was the cost of repair and/or replacement of the unique roof structure? Did that include repair and/or replacement of the rusted structural steel members and associated support cables in the roof?
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Revelation
Posts: 23905
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RE: Pan Am Terminal 3 Worldport JFK

Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 32):
If it were left up to our younger a.netters, we'd have all terminals at JFK torn down and built with shiny brand new hi-tech terminals that would last maybe 10 years and then those would be torn down for even newer shiny brand new hi-tech terminals, over and over again!

We have a big example of what we get when we let the current generation of managers build a terminal at JFK, and that's B6's T5. You end up with "big box store meets airport". Indeed it's something that will NOT stand the test of time, yet there's no reason to say this has anything to do with young people.

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 43):
But I only question Delta's imagination- or lack thereof- when it came to T3. They could've turned it into a connecting point between T2 and T4, filled it up with duty free shops, restaurants, and leased the building out to vendors. They could've turned it into one huge skyclub if they tweaked the roofing and the walls. The potential was there, I mean I, an 18 year old high school senior could see it, but how the businessmen and chief officers with all the resources they had, saw the only potential the structure had was a parking lot, is beyond me.

It wouldn't work even if the restore was done for free, and there's no way that would happen. Travelers aren't going to detour themselves to go to the mega mall/club you propose, certainly not in enough numbers to make it viable. NYC taxes and other costs of doing business guarantee that it'd be an albatross. Given the problems the building had, just getting the liability off the books is a big step forward.
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