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4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:52 am
by mrcomet
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/3-fren...-guys-made-titanium-211500451.html

A new seat of titanium and carbon would save airlines $400K per airplane and Ryanair $120K million. It surprises me this hasn't been done before.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:13 pm
by Unflug
Quoting mrcomet (Thread starter):
A new seat of titanium and carbon would save airlines $400K per airplane and Ryanair $120K million. It surprises me this hasn't been done before.

Maybe titanium is too expensive. $400 k savings per airplane and year sounds great, but they don't say how much more that new seat costs.

And then, unfortunately they have designed benches, not seats:

http://globalfinance.zenfs.com/en_us...A-56ddfd9bbde31acba9ab4289c82f6bd0

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:26 pm
by LU9092
Quoting Unflug (Reply 1):

It would appear they're incredibly uncomfortable benches, at that. They look sort of like higher-backed versions of the seats often found in gate waiting areas, but these appear to have worse than no lumbar support.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:10 pm
by dc9northwest
Quoting mrcomet (Thread starter):
A new seat of titanium and carbon would save airlines $400K per airplane and Ryanair $120K million. It surprises me this hasn't been done before.

This means having no seats would save them $600k/airframe/yr and Ryanair $180,000,000 per year.

Standing room only reconsidered?

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:53 pm
by frmrCapCadet
A hard seat which is well designed can be comfortable for a few hours. Fine Woodworking had an extensive article on the subject several years ago. Think about the really fine seats in a really fine restaurant. You may be in it for three or four hours. A week after I read the article I was eating in a restaurant noted for not liking its customers. The seats broke every rule for a good seat. Accident. Not at all.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:05 pm
by vv701
Next month BA will start to retrofit its Airbus fleet with the BE Aerospace Pinnale seat:

http://www.beaerospace.com/products/seating_main_cabin.htm

So far it has only been fitted to newly delivered BA A320s. The five new aircraft fitted with it are G-EUYP TO 'YU. When it is retrofitted to all its fleet BA's short-haul capacity will be 6 per cent greater.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:21 pm
by ssteve
Here is the company's website:
http://www.expliseat.com/

At first the phrasing of the article made it sound like a university project, "three french guys..." But they have a product, certification, and customer.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 6:09 pm
by JAAlbert
a bench seat isn't such a bad concept, provide it has individual support and contouring for the three rear ends that will be sitting on it. It might be more a maintenance hassle, however - if the fabric or pleather or whatever that seat is made out of rips or is torn or soiled, the entire bench cover must be replaced. This bench will now allow one person to recline with the seat sliding forward as in the new models either. It doesn't look like the seats in the advertisement recline.

How much do the Pinnacle seats weigh? The advertisement says they weigh 15% less but don't state what that weight is.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:14 pm
by lightsaber
Each seat save 7kg. Each kg should save ~$50 per year. So 188 seats*7kg/seat=1,281 kg or $65,800 per year in fuel and wear and tear savings.

The claimed fuel/cost savings are not adding up... I've *never* heard of that high of a savings for removing one ton of weight from an airframe...


Quoting Unflug (Reply 1):
And then, unfortunately they have designed benches, not seats:

That is not a comfy looking seat...

Lightsaber

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:54 pm
by MD80Nut
Titanium is not cheap. It's also relatively rare. I wonder what their cost is compared to current seats? They look quite uncomfortable.

Cheers,

Ralph

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:58 pm
by aklrno
Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 9):
Titanium is not cheap. It's also relatively rare. I wonder what their cost is compared to current seats? They look quite uncomfortable.

Not so much rare as expensive to refine. Same problem with aluminum.

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 4):
A hard seat which is well designed can be comfortable for a few hours. Fine Woodworking had an extensive article on the subject several years ago. Think about the really fine seats in a really fine restaurant. You may be in it for three or four hours. A week after I read the article I was eating in a restaurant noted for not liking its customers. The seats broke every rule for a good seat. Accident. Not at all.

Some restaurants (fast food, ice cream shops, some low end restaurants) really don't want you to hang around. The surroundings are designed (both in comfort and appearance) to make you want to move on in 50 minutes. Those ugly Dunkin Donuts colors are no accident.

Airlines are dong a cost/benefit titration to see how many customers they can pack in before they decide to pay a bit more elsewhere to be comfortable. Judging by revenues and passenger count they can probably squeeze a bit more juice from that lemon.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:25 am
by mrcomet
Seats are one of those things that you have to actually sit in to figure out how comfortable it really is and body shape will change that comfort level. The whole key is contouring which is not always done effectively in airline seats because of space restrictions. That said, if you can realize 1500 kg of weight savings, that seems significant and the cost of exotic materials would start to become worth it. I don't think there is probably much titanium in them - they describe the seat as composite so I suspect if they are bothering to do that, they'd minimize the titanium to just fasteners and maybe a few crossbars.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Each seat save 7kg. Each kg should save ~$50 per year. So 188 seats*7kg/seat=1,281 kg or $65,800 per year in fuel and wear and tear savings.

The claimed fuel/cost savings are not adding up... I've *never* heard of that high of a savings for removing one ton of weight from an airframe...

Here is their calculation - http://www.expliseat.com/save-fuel/

They assume they are competing with a 13 kg seat and not the new, modern 11 kg seat. They assume 189 seats in a 737 utilized 10 hours a day with an 800 nm average flight. They claim a savings of $1033 per month per seat. Probably like B and A they are presenting a best care scenario.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:42 am
by roseflyer
I don't think that I have ever seen titanium used in a seat before. Aluminum is the standard that almost every seat uses. There is a business case for titanium on airplanes, but a seat is a bit challenging. The certification requirements are rather strict with the various G loads. I'm curious how much weight using titanium is going to save over aluminum with the bench seat concept. How much did they save by going to a bench design and how much by switching to titanium? Getting rid of magazine pockets and having a simple hinged piece of titanium as a tray seems like good weight savings but rather expensive. Outside of the engine environment, titanium usually doesn't make good business sense on an airplane unless there are benefits other than weight such as corrosion resistance, electrical conductivity requirements, temperature requirements, etc. A seat doesn't have these additional requirement so the weight vs cost equation usually favors aluminum. I'd like to see how good their bench design is if they used aluminum.

Weight is extremely important for airplanes. I actually think the fuel savings numbers are somewhat realistic although probably double or triple reality. The manufacturers fight for every pound that they can save, although the seats are one area where more weight is ok if it is offset by comfort.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:45 am
by Vasu
They look very uncomfortable to me, but I'll reserve judgement for if/when I try it for myself. I remember thinking the slimline recaro seats looked hard and uncomfortable at first, but when when I tried them on TOM and AY I was pleasantly surprised!

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:42 am
by AOMlover
I've had the chance to sit in those seats at the Singapore airshow two months ago, and comfort is good. I'm not sure this impression would remain after a few hours in the air, but don't be fooled by the "cheap" look of those seats. It was no worse than the slimline Recaro seats that AF fitted on its domestic A320s.

At least you have better privacy with those seats as the guy behind you can't see your computer screen for example. I wish those guys a lot of success.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:16 am
by PhilBy
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 8):
Each seat save 7kg. Each kg should save ~$50 per year. So 188 seats*7kg/seat=1,281 kg or $65,800 per year in fuel and wear and tear savings.

The claimed fuel/cost savings are not adding up... I've *never* heard of that high of a savings for removing one ton of weight from an airframe...

Airframe weight cost is sometimes estimated at ~$3000 /kg over a 30 year life ($100/kg/year) for long range and about half that for regional.

If we take an A380 say 500 seats - 7kg * 500 * $100 = $350,000 we start to get close to the figure.

Anyone fancy sitting in an unpadded, non-reclining bench seat for a 14h flight?

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:01 pm
by AOMlover
Quoting PhilBy (Reply 15):
Anyone fancy sitting in an unpadded, non-reclining bench seat for a 14h flight?

Those seats are not intended to be used for long haul flights. They seem to target low cost / charter airlines with flight times that rarely exceed 3 hours and no need for an in-seat IFE (Air Méditerranée for instance).

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:25 pm
by offloaded
Quoting VV701 (Reply 5):

I flew 'YP out (FAO LHR) in Y and 'YS back in J last weekend. Not the most comfortable seat I have sat in, and even worse that BA uses this seat in the J cabin but blocks out the middle seat. Other travellers in J were similarly unimpressed.

RE: 4 Kg Seat Saves $400,000 Year

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:32 pm
by lightsaber
Quoting mrcomet (Reply 11):
They claim a savings of $1033 per month per seat. Probably like B and A they are presenting a best care scenario.

High fuel savings for the weight savings. The empty weight is about 40t for the 738! So the math still doesn't add up.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 15):
Airframe weight cost is sometimes estimated at ~$3000 /kg over a 30 year life ($100/kg/year) for long range and about half that for regional.

Since we're talking regional, we'll use the 'about half that' number or the $50/year per kg.

As you noted, this isn't for long haul....

Lightsaber