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wilco737
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MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:19 am

Some members may not be aware of the fact that all members have an edit window of 60 minutes, from the time you first make a post in which to add or remove any additional comments or information into/from the post. Please make use of this feature made available to you, for your own convenience, instead of posting one post after another (doubles, triples or more).

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Due to length part 54 was locked for further contributions. Please feel free to continue your discussion in part 55:

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 1 (by Longhornmaniac Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 2 (by LipeGIG Mar 7 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 3 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 4 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 5 (by SA7700 Mar 8 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 6 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 7 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 8 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 9 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 10 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 12 (by SA7700 Mar 10 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 13 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 14 (by SA7700 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 15 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 16 (by SA7700 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 17 (by 777ER Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 18 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 19 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 20 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 21 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 22 (by SA7700 Mar 13 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 23 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 24 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 25 (by SA7700 Mar 14 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 26 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 27 (by SA7700 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 28 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 15 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 29 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 30 (by SA7700 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 31 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 16 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 32 (by ManuCH Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 33 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 17 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 34 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 35 (by SA7700 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 36 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 37 (by SA7700 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 38 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 39 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 40 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 41 (by SA7700 Mar 20 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 42 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 21 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 44 (by SA7700 Mar 23 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 46 (by SA7700 Mar 25 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 47 (by SA7700 Mar 27 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 48 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 49 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 31 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 50 (by wilco737 Apr 2 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 51 (by wilco737 Apr 6 2014 in Civil Aviation)

MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 53 (by SA7700 Apr 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)


**********************************************************************************************

**********************************************************************************************


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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:24 am

I was too slow in the last thread...

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 294):
If the price is right, WHOI will lend you some and even operate them for you.

They were used in the AF447 search.

Yeah, I just read this regarding AF447: "The main tools for the search were three Remus 6000 autonomous underwater vehicles".

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...missing-wreckage-was-found-5583302

I know one area where these beasts are needed badly, and three would be much better than the current one that can only go down to 4500... I wonder what this company are thinking regarding MH370 knowing that they have the right kind of tools? Would they be waiting for a phone call and a cheque? Perhaps they have already been contacted?

Or..........

Now that the Remus 6000 is being discussed on a.net and appears to be what is needed in the search for MH370 as they helped find AF447 - the media will be on to it once they check in this thread  Wink

[Edited 2014-04-14 22:33:36]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:25 am

Quote:
What are the reasons they go through the trouble with tinkering with gadgets like the Bluefin-21? Why can't they use ship mounted sonars to do this? By being further away from the sea floor the sonar would be able to see much wider area at once. Does that have to do with issues with range or resolution? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons they're doing it this way, I'm just curious as to what those reasons might be?

Same reason you can't hear ULBs from a great distance. The greater the distance, the more the signal is attenuated and spreads out. Sonar isn't great for precision work at those ranges. Don't really have details for you, but those are the physical limitations. There's a reason they build badass ROVs that can go deep for a long time. I mean, it'd be nice if we could do it from space too, from geostationary orbit, cover like a third of the planet at a time ... but undersea searches aren't so elegant.

edit: Also remember that unlike the ULB search, active sonar means sending out sound and listening for an echo, which requires ridiculous power compared to passive listening. You gotta get close.

[Edited 2014-04-14 22:26:39]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
decoder
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:25 am

What are the reasons they go through the trouble with tinkering with gadgets like the Bluefin-21? Why can't they use ship mounted sonars to do this? By being further away from the sea floor the sonar would be able to see much wider area at once. Does that have to do with issues with penetration range or resolution? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons they're doing it this way, I'm just curious as to what those reasons might be?
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:31 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 1):
Now that the Remus 6000 is being discussed on a.net and appears to be what is needed in the search for MH370 as they helped find AF447 - the media will be on to it once they check in this thread

That would be pretty humbling if a post of mine could influence things like that, but realistically the right phone calls have probably already been made.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:37 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 4):
That would be pretty humbling if a post of mine could influence things like that, but realistically the right phone calls have probably already been made.

I'd hope and think so, especially now since the Aussies (who have sound SAR experience) are kind of taking control. However, if Malaysia was in charge then I doubt that they would ever be contacted... Maybe it is still being worked out who will pay the bill?  
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Finn350
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:47 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 5):
I'd hope and think so, especially now since the Aussies (who have sound SAR experience) are kind of taking control. However, if Malaysia was in charge then I doubt that they would ever be contacted... Maybe it is still being worked out who will pay the bill?

I suppose that in the AF447 search it was either Air France or Government of France that paid the bill. US Navy has an existing agreement regarding Bluefin-21 and for that reason it was quick to deploy. Most likely they are now discussing who will foot the bill for a more capable UAV.Edit: Bluefin-21 belongs to US Navy

[Edited 2014-04-14 23:00:29]
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:57 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 5):
the Aussies (who have sound SAR experience)

Hah ... sound SAR ... when talking about sonar search... I hope that was intentional. Sound sound SAR? Say THAT three times fast...

[Edited 2014-04-14 22:58:05]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
LandSweetLand
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:01 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 7):
Hah ... sound SAR ... when talking about sonar search... I hope that was intentional. Sound sound SAR? Say THAT three times fast...

When not breeding dangerous animals, Australians work on their own style of humour.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:01 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 6):
Either US Navy or Australian Navy probably has an existing agreement regarding Bluefin-21 and for that reason it was quick to deploy. Most likely they are now discussing who will foot the bill for a more capable UAV.

I would assume that if that is not happening now then that will eventually happen. I would hope that Malaysia would foot the bill, and I would want it paid in full in advance if I was the equipment operator and entering into an agreement with Malaysia...  

Whilst the SAR area is the responsibility of Australia. Whilst the plane was manufactured in the USA. Whilst the engines were RR. Whilst there were mostly Chinese citizens on board... It was MH that owned and lost the plane!
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Lizzie
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:07 am

Kaiarahi wrote in reply 272, thread 54



At about the point the transponder was disabled (neutral term), the programmed route required a right turn to 040 degrees. There are at least two possibilities (and probably more):
1. The A/P or the PF had commenced the turn, then all hell broke loose technically and by the time control was recovered the turn was 180 degrees plus.
2. The transponder was deliberately disabled after the programmed turn had commenced, leaving SSR under the impression that the plane was following the filed route, and the PF then simply continued the turn rather than rolling back into a left turn.

There are certainly other possibilities - Pihero / Zeke?


Thanks.

I
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:29 am

Malaysia must upgrade its defence system: Hisham (from NewStraitsTimes today)

Quote:
In light of the Malaysia Airlines MH370 tragedy, Defence Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein notes there is a need to upgrade the country's defence system to strengthen its security in the future.
He said such a move was needed in view of the necessity to disclose sensitive military radar information in the search for the Boeing 777-200ER aircraft which vanished on March 8.
"We've made a very courageous decision to put aside national security and interests by disclosing some of our sensitive military radar information in the early stages of the search and rescue mission.
...
He told reporters this after witnessing the signing of a memorandum of understanding (MoU) between Global Komited Sdn Bhd, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Weststar Group of Companies, and Thales UK here today.

That confirms the significant lack of radar coverage at low altitude, and that increases the likelihood of an a/c willfully piloted by some entity.
Anyway, not everybody loses.
 
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seat55a
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:13 am

Quoting Pihero, reply 177 of Part 54:

Question 1 : What's in a cockpit ?
Question 2 : Where is it in a cockpit ?
Question 3 : What is not in a cockpit ?
Question 4 : Where is it, if not in a cockpit ?

Socratic Method, ugh. I suppose it serves me right, I have inflicted it on others before.

Yes, I understand that data entry points in the cockpit, or the connections to the computers (that are not in the cockpit) could be compromised by fire or other incident.

I was rather hoping you had a serious suggestion as to what sort of incident can affect all the controls that would need to be affected - most of them are carefully designed with redundancy...while at the same time leaving the aircraft flightworthy.


To be very clear, I am not arguing for "foul play". I am looking for any coherent proposed chain of events and so far I have not heard one. The psychological and technical explanations are all equally unconvincing.

 
md11sdf
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:57 am

At some point, this "MH370 Missing Enroute" thread needs to die.

How about MH370 Search and Recovery?

Otherwise, in August, it's going to be part 166.

Does ANYONE want that?
LOUISVILLE KENTUCKY: Where your camera looks just like a stinger missile to the Airport Police!!
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:13 am

Quoting seat55a (Reply 12):
I am looking for any coherent proposed chain of events and so far I have not heard one.

Hi !
As I am tired of arguing against people who are set in their ways and know diddly s... on how an aircraft flies, I have decided that,were they intellectually honest, they would do some research on the elements I gave.
I hid nothing.
Everything is on the posts I made on the last thread.
And yes, there is a situation which explains, in a very coherent and logical way everything factual about the accident. There is just one aspect which has to be stretched just a little bit to fit all known events.

The only facts I am aware of are :
- The loss of transponder signal at or near IGARI
- The last message received by KL control
- The unestablished VHF com link with Ho Chi Minh
- The com silence afterwards
- the received *pings* from the airplane SATCOM
- The Inmarsat lines of position ( LOPs or *loci*)
- The revised analysis of the tracks with Doippler shifts, further refined by taking the satellite movement characteristics into account.

I have dismissed :
- All claims of radar contacts, that are at the very least very suspect ( although one or two could be less suspect )
- All the claims about low altitude flight with multiple changes of course : they don't fit the facts above, nor do they fit the endurance of the airplane, and more importantly, they don't fit the last turn time and estimated position.

Sorry, I'm not going to say more here... I could, if asked, send PMs to the true searchers.

And the conspiracists can continue having their field day.
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PhilBy
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:47 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 6):
I suppose that in the AF447 search it was either Air France or Government of France that paid the bill.

IIRC Airbus paid at least 20 million towards the extended search
 
Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:42 pm

Pihero, as a pillar of this thread, it would be too bad if you gave up out of frustration caused by too many heated exchanges that should never have taken place.

It has also been frustrating for other members because level headed technical discussions seem to become difficult to engage in at this stage of the thread.

The issue of "foul play" raised by some has poisoned the atmosphere and angered many pilots who understandably loathe that idea. Maybe any discussions about "psychology/motivation/who done it" should move to another non-technical thread. BTW the fact that Malaysian investigators have opened a criminal investigation does not imply foul play. In the case of AF447 the same thing happened as in any air accident involving a loss of life.

If we concentrate on what happened, I think we have at least the following three possibilities:
1) one or more accidental events on-board that affected some of the comm/nav systems and probably incapacitated the pilots so that the a/c followed a path not or only partially under pilot control;
2) the take over of the a/c via on-board software modifications done before or during the flight and that precluded pilots from regaining full or even sufficient control of the a/c;
3) the take over of the a/c by a party of one or more who deliberately flew a path into oblivion, using evasive techniques not to be intercepted and discovered.

To be constructive, a foundation based on evidence should be provided for each scenario, followed by a technical argument showing how such a scenario fits the known observations. Critiques by others should also be based on evidence used as counter argument, avoiding non argumented posts that just say "it is stupid" or "I don't believe it". Outright dismissal of evidence just because it does not fit one's scenario should be avoided.

Of course I am not a moderator and have no right to force the thread in any particular direction. However, I strongly suggest that we should move to a higher level of discourse where the back and forth among members can again be both informative and intellectually challenging.
 
Summa767
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
- The com silence afterwards

This is radio communications and ACARS massages. The loss of ACARS is a significant factor and should at least be mentioned.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
And the conspiracists can continue having their field day.

I have not read very much in the way of conspiracy theories.
There is a theory about a deliberate action by the pilot for whom some people is the most likely, whereas for others -the majority- is simply one of the possibilities. In fact, as far as I can see, it is only you who has ruled out pilot suicide/mass murder as a possibility.

I don't see a reason to discard nefarious act by one of the pilots. After all, there have been several instances of suicidal pilots with jetliners in the last few years. Perhaps more palpable in our memories are the Egyptair 767 that killed 217 people, Silkair 737 that killed 104, but just months ago there was a LAM Mozambique E190 that killed 33 people.

There is not enough evidence to conclude that this is the cause of MH370, but some of the circumstances -such as the time of the disappearance, just after signing off from Malaysia ATC, the loss of the Transponder signal and ACARS and a trajectory that circunvented Indonesia and ended up in the Indian Ocean should not be assumed to be coincidental.

A minimum of 2 turns were executed, but more cannot be ruled out. Indeed, if the current search area proves to be where the plane impacted the ocean, it would point towards at least one turn to the East after passing the Coco islands.

There is a difference with previous instances of pilot suicide that caused the deaths of all the occupants, and is that those happened on the planned route. On the Silkair case there was an attempt at concealment of the suicidal act by the disconnection of the CVR and FDR.
The circumstances of MH370 could fit with a more careful attempt at concealment of a suicide/mass murder act. Only a step above previous occurrences.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):

I would only like to emphasize that this incident is uprecedented, and it's also combined with a near total lack of solid information.

Then we have, from left field, Inmarsat's miracle math to tell us roughly where 9M-MRO probably crashed.  

You have to expect rampant speculation. I'm certainly guilty of some.

We would have very little to discuss about the disappearance of 9M-MRO without speculation.   

At any rate, I appreciate the patience of the experienced members of the forum and the moderators.   
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 17):

This is radio communications and ACARS massages.

I've heard of Turkish, Thai, Swedish, spa, therapeutic massages, but never of ACARS.   
ACARS is not a communication set / box...etc... but just a protocol using VHF or satellite communication systems.

[Edited 2014-04-15 06:36:47]
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egph
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:41 pm

Hey guys,

Hope I can just ask a quick question regarding the search for MH370 that will not detract from the more advanced discussion taking place. For quite some time now I have noted that many nations have taken part in this multinational search for the missing B777. A nation that however has not been involved is Indonesia, despite having nationals missing on the plane. Can people confirm that Indonesia was not involved in the search at any point, even the earlier stages closer to their territorial waters? If so do you think this is because of tension between Indonesia and Malaysia or because the search required equipment that the Indonesian navy/air force simply do not have? I would be grateful for any pointers on this as I'm curious.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 16):
To be constructive, a foundation based on evidence should be provided for each scenario, followed by a technical argument showing how such a scenario fits the known observations. Critiques by others should also be based on evidence used as counter argument, avoiding non argumented posts that just say "it is stupid" or "I don't believe it".

I couldn't agree more with you.
Do I think it could happen ?
Suffice to read the post # 17 to realise that after close to 16,000 posts ( no doubt this site's record ) some haven't evolve a single millimeter from the simplistic unknowledgeable discourses that have been uttered, written or shouted ad nauseam.

Until your respectable and well thought suggestion is implemented...

[Edited 2014-04-15 06:48:19]

[Edited 2014-04-15 06:51:35]

[Edited 2014-04-15 06:53:31]
Contrail designer
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:11 pm

I wonder if REMUS 6000 is a cool enough dude to help stop people fighting in this thread. We know he is quite capable.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:21 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 17):
. In fact, as far as I can see, it is only you who has ruled out pilot suicide/mass murder as a possibility.

That sentence proves beyond doubt that you don't even bother to read quite a few posters' contributions that find that scenario unlikely.
Even if you were right, that doesn't prove that my hypothsese are flawed and yours correct as there are more of you, does it ?
Since I joined A.net, years ago, it has participated in discussions on several accidents :
Gulf Air A320 off the coast of Bahrain
The A320 off the coast of Sotchi
The Habsheim crash
The Concorde crash
The Sioux City crash
The AA 300 crash
The TAM 320 crash
AF447
The 747 in Afghanistan
The ET 737 off the coast of Beirut.
On ALL these events, the contributors have managed to narrow down the most likely chain of events which led to the crash... even with diagrams, spreadsheets, drawings that are quite amazingly close to the final reports.
IMHO, that's something no other aviation site could claim.

Where are these contributors, now ?

Maybe they are in retaliation trolling some psychiatric / conspiracist sites... and good for them if that's the case !
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Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 22):
I wonder if REMUS 6000 is a cool enough dude to help stop people fighting in this thread. We know he is quite capable.

... by telling one of the Brare Rabbit stories ?   
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glideslope
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 24):
... by telling one of the Brare Rabbit stories ?   

No, "The Red Baloon."
"To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting EGPH (Reply 20):
A nation that however has not been involved is Indonesia, despite having nationals missing on the plane. Can people confirm that Indonesia was not involved in the search at any point, even the earlier stages closer to their territorial waters? If so do you think this is because of tension between Indonesia and Malaysia or because the search required equipment that the Indonesian navy/air force simply do not have?

Indonesia immediately responded to the request to assist and take part in the search and rescue at the very beginning.
1 737-200MRA and 3 Nomads participated in the search on Strait of Malacca.

Those assets then moved to look at the west coast of Sumatra once the Malaysian government revealed they knew the aircraft went off from the strait of Malacca and our part of the search has been completed. We however, I am told, continued to search down the coast of Sumatra and later on, the south coast of Java, in a very low intensity search.

Since we do not have. air SAR assets that can go beyond our EEZ, we have not taken part in the search out of Perth.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
As I am tired of arguing against people who are set in their ways and know diddly s... on how an aircraft flies, I have decided that,were they intellectually honest, they would do some research on the elements I gave.

I have also taken a step back due to work commitments, etc. I've asked the media who usually quote me to refrain from contacting me on MH370 on things that is not technical or flight operations related, or unless there are some significant developments in the search. I haven't browsed the forums lately let alone keep up with the discussions here as there has been very little development.

Almost on a daily basis at work I have discussions with a member of our national accident investigation agency, and the sad story behind MH370 is that now the Malaysian accident investigation inspectorate seems to have disappeared into a black hole, since about a week before MH370. This is probably why the government is directly "taking charge", and seems to be running around in circles regarding fact release and media handling.

I spent the last 2 days meeting our regulators regarding aviation health, safety and security... one interesting revelation from the airport authority (not the airport operator) is that now almost 75% of all the 'bad stuff' we catch on international arrivals involvw flights coming in from KUL.... Once you hear the all sorts of weird stuff caught.... you can't help but wonder how much of the 'black holes' were exploited (if any) by the perpetrators to make MH370 the biggest aviation mystery to date.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting seat55a (Reply 12):

Quoting Pihero, reply 177 of Part 54:

Question 1 : What's in a cockpit ?
Question 2 : Where is it in a cockpit ?
Question 3 : What is not in a cockpit ?
Question 4 : Where is it, if not in a cockpit ?
Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
I have decided that,were they intellectually honest, they would do some research on the elements I gave.
I hid nothing.

I took your challenge from the last thread and, although aided by WingedMigrator's insight, I still couldn't come up one way or the other with an answer to the question whether it is possible for a fire or similar event to disable ACARS but not cause a/p to disconnect.

It still seems to me that asking what is and is not in the cockpit is too simplistic. ACARS was disabled (neutral word) but the satcom antennae was not. Which is to say, something, it seems, severed the link between the satcom antennae and the equipment providing positional data (and possibly engine data). That would further suggest, although I'm not sure, that the event did not merely disable the interface between the pilots and ACARS (which is in the cockpit), but significantly affected the data bus (outside the cockpit).

So the question becomes, could an event affecting the data bus in such a a way as to disable ACARS nonetheless not disable autopilot or, alternatively, permit a/p to operate in a different mode.

I have not been able to answer that question but I don't think the answer is self-evidently yes. Yet it would have to be yes, I think (??), for this to be true:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 14):
And yes, there is a situation which explains, in a very coherent and logical way everything factual about the accident.



Would love to see responses / critiques from Pihero and others.
 
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 27):

Hint - look specifically at what's on the pedestal, what's on the glareshield, and what's on the overhead.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
747megatop
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 22):
I wonder if REMUS 6000 is a cool enough dude to help stop people fighting in this thread. We know he is quite capable

I had asked a question and could not get a reply in the previous thread. Let me ask again; if the CVR/FDR are buried in silt, do the unmanned submersibles have technology to detect those? What kind of technology would that be? Or else, would it be the traditional - prod with a (robotic) arm and then look with camera & lights?
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):
Hint - look specifically at what's on the pedestal, what's on the glareshield, and what's on the overhead.

If you're saying a single small cockpit fire could knock out ACARS, comms, and possibly, nav, I get that. Not disagreeing.

What I'm asking is how does that fire not knock out a/p as well, which is important because in the non-nefarious scenarii   , the plane flew the southbound leg on a/p.
 
nupogodi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 29):
I had asked a question and could not get a reply in the previous thread. Let me ask again; if the CVR/FDR are buried in silt, do the unmanned submersibles have technology to detect those? What kind of technology would that be? Or else, would it be the traditional - prod with a (robotic) arm and then look with camera & lights?

Yup, our good friend REMUS 6000 (god I just love that name) has sub-bottom profiling sonar which does just that, but the range must be absolutely terrible so don't expect that to be used in a wide area search!

It can also take (visual) pictures yeah, from 10m. Don't think it has an arm! Recovery would need to be done by some other certified badass, hopefully with an equally cool name.

But so far we haven't seen any indication REMUS 6000 is on this mission, just that it would be the appropriate ROV to use since Bluefin maxed out it's depth on day 1.

edit: Worry not! Bluefin-21 comes standard with sub-bottom sonar too.

edit2: Here's the marketing on the DW-216 the Bluefin-21 is equipped with No real mention of the range (really, I am assuming it's terrible by our standards), but 6-10cm resolution - should be able to pick out an FDR/CVR under some muck. But only once they find the debris field definitively! Might take some time. A lot of time.

[Edited 2014-04-15 08:59:03]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 30):
What I'm asking is how does that fire not knock out a/p as well

A/P mode selection is on the glareshield.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
airtechy
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:30 pm

Interesting about the first officer's cellphone. I'm not sure about the side cockpit windows, but all the forward facing windows are composed of multiple layers of glass with a thin metallic coating. The metal in the coating forms a sheet resistance that....when current is passed through...progressively heats the glass layers. This is to prevent shattering of the glass by birds, hail, etc.

The metal also acts as a RF shield which would block a cellphone signal. There are other paths for a signal to "escape" a cockpit involving wire bundles and the like, but it would seem that if his cellphone was really picked up it is far more likely that he was in the cabin....possibly near a window.

When the handheld GPS's first came out in the 90"s, I was using one held next to the window. One of the rotating cockpit pilots sat next to me and was fascinated by the gadget and wanted to take it "up front" to show the "on duty" crew. He came back and said it wouldn't work in the cockpit and we reasoned it was the metal in the windows. This was on a Delta MD11 flight to NRT.....to date myself!

Interesting.....   
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 13):
At some point, this "MH370 Missing Enroute" thread needs to die.
How about MH370 Search and Recovery?
Otherwise, in August, it's going to be part 166.
Does ANYONE want that?

I would kill this very convoluted thread, and start on a new with Rcair Sanity check, with only the FACTS we know and POSSiBILITIES, only posting allowed when there is new info or new data, and discuss or extrapolate on data we have. Any speculation, theories, weird alien factors or simply rehashed data, to be deleted by the mods....

if we continue by thread 80 we will be discussing if the FO used the forward lav or the tail lav to make the mobile phone... handshake

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 16):
Pihero, as a pillar of this thread, it would be too bad if you gave up out of frustration caused by too many heated exchanges that should never have taken place.

I really admire his patience and relentless pursuit of clarity ...

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 18):
I would only like to emphasize that this incident is uprecedented, and it's also combined with a near total lack of solid information.
Then we have, from left field, Inmarsat's miracle math to tell us roughly where 9M-MRO probably crashed.  
You have to expect rampant speculation. I'm certainly guilty of some.
We would have very little to discuss about the disappearance of 9M-MRO without speculation.   
At any rate, I appreciate the patience of the experienced members of the forum and the moderators.   

100% agree.

In the mean time the Conspiracist crow is having a field day because the authorities have been spotty (to say the least) on bringing hard data to the public) (BTW the CT crowd has been quite absent in A net thank God !!)

Back to lurking (this thread)

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 27):
r it is possible for a fire or similar event to disable ACARS but not cause a/p to disconnect.

There is basically no hardware called ACARS;
It is just a communications protocol
Saying "ACARS" is disconnected " is exactly like saying " He can't talk, his vocabulary doesn't work any more"
The *controls* for ACARS communications are on the MCDUs.
If *ACARS was disconnected*, how do you explain the Inmarsat pings ?
These pings are from the airplane SATCOM answering an ACARS-protocoled call from the satellite. (simply as not to get into complexities that some are prone of ).

[Edited 2014-04-15 09:46:19]
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Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:49 pm

If a very vexing technical problem is the root cause of the MH370 problem, it is not likely to come from I would call first level faults.

From what I can gather, the T7 architecture was new in that it was designed around a highly integrated but also highly redundant Aircraft Information Management System that provides most of the services that pilots rely on in the cockpit. Clearly the AIMS must be very robust to deal with possible CPU failures, I/O module failures, bus failures and as much as possible software issues. On paper, a full logical diagram would no doubt show a well thought out, robust partitioning that prevents the existence of any Single Point of Failure.

If I were looking for possible level 2 SPFs, I would look at the way all that robust and well partitioned gear and cabling is packed into tight quarters. I was once in an EE bay and don't remember it to be very spacious. Space is always at a premium.

Is there any possibility that the (partial) proximity of two otherwise independent subsystems that provide each other mutual redundancy could under extraordinary circumstances (e.g. fire) create a SPF?
 
Heinkel
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 31):
But so far we haven't seen any indication REMUS 6000 is on this mission, just that it would be the appropriate ROV to use since Bluefin maxed out it's depth on day 1.

German newspapers wrote, that the GEOMAR Helmholtz Centre for Ocean Research at Kiel is on standby with their REMUS 6000 AUV, named "Abyss". They are waiting for a call from the Aussies.

Despription of the vehicle (english language):

http://www.geomar.de/en/centre/central-facilities/tlz/auv-abyss/

Best regards
Andreas
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:53 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 32):
A/P mode selection is on the glareshield.

Maybe I'm not making sense or maybe my question just doesn't make any sense. But I'm not disputing the physical separation of the a/p controls from, say, the ACARS interface. I'm asking whether (1) it is possible for a fire or some other event / malfunction to knock out ACARS (and sever the link between positional data and the satcom antennae, which I think is different than merely knocking out the ACARS interface) and still not cause a/p to automatically disconnect. And, then, (2) if disconnection occurs, what other a/p mode could be used. Bear in mind also that under non-nefarious scenarii being discussed, the fire or event was not an isolated electrical short but something with a significant enough physical manifestation to lead to the incapacitation of the pilots.

Again, I am not trying to show that a non-nefarious scenario is impossible. I'm simply saying that--unless I'm crazy to think that most cockpits fires or other events that knock out ACARS, comms, the transponder, and the pilots will also cause or correlate with a failure that causes a/p to disconnect--that we would need a fire or other event that leaves a/p operable, at least in some modes.

So feel free to crush the above with criticism--I'm all for constructive criticism--but if someone wants to put forth a theory about a fire or event that causes the losses we know were suffered but allows the plane to fly on a/p for 5-6 hours afterwards, I doubt I am the only one who would be interested and stand to learn something.
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 11

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
There is basically no hardware called ACARS;
It is just a communications protocol
Saying "ACARS" is disconnected " is exactly like saying " He can't talk, his vocabulary doesn't work any more"
The *controls* for ACARS communications are on the MCDUs.
If *ACARS was disconnected*, how do you explain the Inmarsat pings ?
These pings are from the airplane SATCOM answering an ACARS-protocoled call from the satellite. (simply as not to get into complexities that some are prone of ).

Maybe I have stated it poorly, but this is the point I was trying to make. Satcom continued to work (hence, the pings). But satcom did not have any ACARS data to provide. The systems that provided the data were, for lack of a better way to put it, not providing the data. And yet that same data (positional data, engine data) was presumably being provided to the FMS as without it, most if not all a/p modes would not be operable, right? So the question becomes, what sort of failure blocks the provision of that data to satcom but not to the FMS?

[Edited 2014-04-15 10:02:31]

[Edited 2014-04-15 10:04:38]
 
pilotalex14
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:07 pm

I just have one quick question. With all the media coming out etc its hard to keep track on what is right what is wrong. My question is.

IF the pilot hijacked his own plane "to commit suicide" what was that soul purpose of flying it for 7 hours and ditching it in the ocean? That makes no logical sense to me.

If i was to commit suicide I would have done it like the other cases and nose dived it?

Correct me If I am wrong , open to opinions but in my mind I cant justify why I would fly for 7 hours trying to avoid radar, run out of fuel, and then ditch in the ocean. That sounds like a Hollywood stunt more then suicide.

Actually reminds me of that movies cant remember the name of it about the cruise ship that was hijacked and then programed into the dock...

Second. 7 hours is along time and out of 281 People on board ( supporting the theory that co pilot was kicked out) no body in the 7 hours tried to break into the cockpit, The door is not bulletproof and 7 hours would be more then enough time to break into it. I know me for one would be all over that door attempting to break into it. No harm done your dead anyways?

Just a thought I had in my head. No need to go crazy and argue.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 39):
Satcom continued to work (hence, the pings). But satcom did not have any ACARS data to provide. The systems that provided the data were, for lack of a better way to put it, not providing the data. And yet that same data (positional data, engine data) was presumably being provided to the FMS as without it, most if not all a/p modes would not be operable, right?

Why do you think the autopilot needs the FMS at all times ?
Doesn't it have other independent modes ? ( as a matter of fact modes that don't specifically need pilot input )
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Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 36):
. On paper, a full logical diagram would no doubt show a well thought out, robust partitioning that prevents the existence of any Single Point of Failure.

This is a Honeywell AIMS presentation paper and two block diagrams. (someone can post them )
There are a few possible SPF sources that are missing in the diagram, aren't there ?
" Where.. ? " is the question. (I've asked myself the same question, btw).

[Edited 2014-04-15 10:22:10]

[Edited 2014-04-15 10:27:12]
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Backseater
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:27 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 39):
Satcom continued to work (hence, the pings). But satcom did not have any ACARS data to provide.

I would suggest looking at the a/c satcom (Aircraft Earth Station or AES for Inmarsat) as a fairly independent transport mechanism that interfaces with and serves possibly many client applications, one of which is ACARS, another would be Swift64 phone service.

For ACARS, the AES must be ready to receive ACARS formatted messages but also to send some from the a/c to the ground. To do so, some resources in the Ground Earth Station and on the satellite link must be reserved in case the a/c wants to transmit. So the GES periodically checks that any a/c for which resources are blocked is indeed still logged on. Otherwise (after possibly some retries for confirmation), the a/c is deleted from the GES data base and its reserved resources are released.

That is the purpose of the pings as I understand them today.
 
11Bravo
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:28 pm

Over the last several days the Chinese Haixun-class cutter has made its way from the search area around the southwestern tip of Australia and is currently anchored in Albany, Australia. I haven't seen any mention of this in the press. Does anyone know what its up to?

Also USNS Cesar Chavez is now in route from the search area to Perth after a rendezvous at sea with the two main search groups over the last week.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 43):

That is the purpose of the pings as I understand them today.

      I agree.
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CO953
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:50 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 16):
If we concentrate on what happened, I think we have at least the following three possibilities:
1) one or more accidental events on-board that affected some of the comm/nav systems and probably incapacitated the pilots so that the a/c followed a path not or only partially under pilot control;
2) the take over of the a/c via on-board software modifications done before or during the flight and that precluded pilots from regaining full or even sufficient control of the a/c;
3) the take over of the a/c by a party of one or more who deliberately flew a path into oblivion, using evasive techniques not to be intercepted and discovered.

In my humble opinion, I might add:

4) The takeover of the aircraft by a party of one or more who started programming in waypoints, didn't fully know what they were doing, and thought they were headed in the right direction....until they ran out of gas.
 
mandala499
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting airtechy (Reply 33):
but all the forward facing windows are composed of multiple layers of glass with a thin metallic coating. The metal in the coating forms a sheet resistance that....when current is passed through...progressively heats the glass layers.

The cockpit side windows are not heated.
Anyway, you can get cellphone signal into the cockpit of a 777. I know a case of one FO that lost his job after he left his cellphone on during a flight and it received am SMS on final approach... unfortunately his sms ringer was a GPWS call, caused the captain who was the PF, to initiate a go-around hearing that GPWS sound....

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
These pings are from the airplane SATCOM answering an ACARS-protocoled call from the satellite. (simply as not to get into complexities that some are prone of ).

I'll add a bit to what BackSeater wrote...
An Inmarsat 3 & 4 satellite terminal will continue to respond to session pings from satellite and/or ground earth station even if no data is being sent through. The satellite and/or ground earth station also sends session pings to terminals known to be switched on even if there is no data to send through (and customer does not get billed for this). That is an Inmarsat thing and not an ACARS thing. Inmarsat simply sees ACARS data exchange/transmissions from or to the aircraft as data payload through its pipeline... nothing more, nothing less... except for the data gateway channelling at the ground earth stations.

If the pings are still continuing, then the satcom session was still on and that the antenna and modem was still functioning ... thats all it means... nothing more, nothing less... apart from the ARINC429 data feed from the aircraft system to the satcom was still functioning. The feed includes position heading, pitch and roll. So AHRS and Position function of the IRS function of the ADIRU, was still functioning, otherwise the beam cannot be aimed at the satellite correctly and we won't hear about these pings at all.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
aftgaffe
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 41):
Why do you think the autopilot needs the FMS at all times ?
Doesn't it have other independent modes ? ( as a matter of fact modes that don't specifically need pilot input )


True. But there had to be pilot input during at least part of the westbound leg.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 43):
I would suggest looking at the a/c satcom (Aircraft Earth Station or AES for Inmarsat) as a fairly independent transport mechanism that interfaces with and serves possibly many client applications, one of which is ACARS, another would be Swift64 phone service.


Agreed. All I'm saying--or meant to be saying--is that the application (i.e. ACARS) I believe uses much the same data (e.g. positional data) that the FMS and a/p ultimately use. Maybe they are sourced differently (would be good to know), but if not, unless that hardware on which ACARS is run is physically in the cockpit, why would a cockpit fire prevent ACARS transmissions but not affect the use of similar data by the FMS? Again, I'm beyond the limits of my knowledge here, so I'm not asking rhetorically. I'm genuinely trying to understand.
 
Pihero
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RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 55

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 48):
But there had to be pilot input during at least part of the westbound leg.

True, at least initially... and that could be the beginning of one of the cascade effects.
Contrail designer
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