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G500
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How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:39 pm

I know there are hills on the approach end of runway 10L/R, and 1L/R..... So i assume it would be hard for a heavy to land on one of the 10s because of the step approach. And Landing on 1L/R would be out of the question for many jets

I've been flying for 15 years, i've only landed on the 28s
 
IAHflyer97
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:55 pm

Heavy jets on the 1's are not unheard of. I've only heard it a couple times and all of those were because of rain and cerosswinds. So it's rare, but it does happen
A man is only as big as the amount of strings on his guitar.
 
timz
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:13 pm

If you pick a 365-day period at random, I'd say it's a 50% chance they won't ever land on the 10s-- maybe a 30-40% chance they'll never land on the 1s?

Suspect the hills are no problem for any aircraft landing on the 10s. They circle to the 1s-- guess there are plenty of pics of 747s landing on 1R?
 
as739x
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Tue Apr 15, 2014 5:50 pm

They land on the 10's maybe 2-3 days per year. And from my observations this usually happens in January. The last 2 times were in the first week of January actually. It's usually not and issue with visibility, cause the weather systems that cause these approaches are high easterly winds with clear sky's. Our so called Santa Ana winds.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

Please see the latest pics here at SFO in the photo sections. Ben Wang took a beautiful pic of a UA 747 making the turn over Millbrae for runway 1R just a few weeks ago. This arrival is not difficult and knowing numerous AS pilots over the years and a UA 747 Captain, they find it quite exciting as it's out of the norm.

The circle to land is actually flown a little more common then the 10 arrival. That being said it flown maybe 7 times a year and not usually for the entire day. Not only does it dramatically slow things down, but the Nimby's in the area always complain.

To add to this. As a local controller told me. With the new technology of airplanes, they are much more equipped to handle cross winds and tailwinds then planes in the past.

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Reply 1):

I am 100% sure you have not scene circle-to-lands to the 1's due to poor weather other then rain. This is completely a visual approach and only done during our Santa Ana type winds which is dry air and clear sky's.

If you mean the 10's, there have a been a few times, but rare that 10's are used in weather as it also has high mins due to terrain. In 2 years as a Ramp Tower Supervisor the only 10 arrival I saw in bad weather was a windy night when a LH A346 couldn't handle the crosswinds for a 19L arrival and land on the 10's. Ceiling was still +800ft making the approach doable or they would have diverted. The new RNP approach for 10R can take you down to 400agl

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

As a pilot, this is what you'd expect for a 1 arrival. Approach will clear you in the pattern for a 28 arrival. You'll be switched to tower outside the San Mateo bridge and be told at, at 6 dme, left and turn approved, circle to land 01R/L, whichever they will give you.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
IAHflyer97
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:07 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 3):

It was the 10's! My bad!
A man is only as big as the amount of strings on his guitar.
 
G500
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 3):

Thanx that's what i thought SFO using the 10s its about 2-3 times a year no wonder why I've never seen a runway 10 landing



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Photo © Montague Smith-WorldWide Aviation Photos


the spotter's comments:

"A very rare day in San Francisco, runway 10 for the entire day allows for landing shots like this"
 
HAL
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:11 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 3):
To add to this. As a local controller told me. With the new technology of airplanes, they are much more equipped to handle cross winds and tailwinds then planes in the past.

From a pilot's point of view, that's not really accurate. There is nothing about new technology that allows us to handle higher crosswinds than earlier aircraft. The wind limits on the current generation aircraft aren't any different from that of earlier aircraft either.

When it comes to crosswinds and/or tailwinds, it's pretty much up to piloting skill, not the electronics aboard.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
From a pilot's point of view, that's not really accurate. There is nothing about new technology that allows us to handle higher crosswinds than earlier aircraft. The wind limits on the current generation aircraft aren't any different from that of earlier aircraft either.

When it comes to crosswinds and/or tailwinds, it's pretty much up to piloting skill, not the electronics aboard.

HAL

  

Over the years, I flew into SFO more times than I can really count. We landed on the 10s just a few times, the 19s a couple of times a year and the 28s the rest of the time. I'm fairly certain we never had the chance to land on the 1s.

One of the roughest - most turbulent - approaches I can remember was to 19R at SFO. The wind decreased 70 knots in the last 4,000 feet.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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aal151heavy
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:45 am

SFO used Runway 01s for landing as recently as a month ago, on March 12th. 25-30 knot winds gusting to 35. I know in the way past, once winds exceed 20 knots down the 01s, the airport would switch to 01 for landings. And it would not last long. Usually after about one hour, the winds would die down and landing traffic would move back to 28.

However, in recent years, 01 landings seemed to be rarely done even with winds at 20 knots. 25 knots appears to be the new threshold. What was cool back on March 12 was the winds were strong enough that they were on the 01s for about 4 hours. It was amazing! None of us spotters remember 01 landings lasting that long in recent memory.


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Photo © Ben Wang
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Ben Wang


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ben Wang
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ben Wang



And the best one (got rejected for distance)  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/13120345455/
My airliners.net photos
 
as739x
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:05 am

Quoting aal151heavy (Reply 8):

Tremendous shots Ben

I forwarded the links to the UA 747's to a friend of mine who is a 47 Captain. He loved them!!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
modesto2
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:58 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
From a pilot's point of view, that's not really accurate. There is nothing about new technology that allows us to handle higher crosswinds than earlier aircraft. The wind limits on the current generation aircraft aren't any different from that of earlier aircraft either.

When it comes to crosswinds and/or tailwinds, it's pretty much up to piloting skill, not the electronics aboard.

My thoughts exactly. Technology is an extremely powerful tool, but it does have some limitations and crosswinds is one of them. In these situations, one must rely upon stick and rudder to get it done.
 
strfyr51
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:00 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
I know there are hills on the approach end of runway 10L/R, and 1L/R..... So i assume it would be hard for a heavy to land on one of the 10s because of the step approach. And Landing on 1L/R would be out of the question for many jets

I work for United and I once lived in Millbrae CA. It was unusual but not unheard of when stormy weather hit the Bay area for the winds to shift and have all kinds of airplanes landing on the 1's before shifting to coming out of the south, when we ALL then knew
a storm was imminent. I was at SFO for 25 Years and saw it about 8 times I can remember. I'm now out of Chicago and I can LOOK up and tell a storm is coming No wind shift needed.
 
JoePatroni
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:22 pm

I lived in San Francisco and worked at SFO for 6 years while traveling quite extensively for work. I never, in my whole time there, saw a landing on the 1s. I've experienced first-hand landing on the 19s and taking off on the 10s a number of times but never did I get to experience or witness the evasive landing on the 1s. Heck, I always got excited when I saw heavies taking off on the 1s. I experienced it a few times on UA777s. For some reason I used to see KLM using the 1s quite regularly for take-off. I always wondered if KLM particularly liked the 1s or if it was just coincidence that I kept seeing it.

I miss SFO.
Oh Stewardess, I speak Jive.
 
SJCMSP
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:46 pm

I always found the weather patterin in the Bay Area interesting when I was growing up in that there is such a "usual" direction to the air traffic, especially in the summer. I grew up near SJC and people would say that planes were landing "backwards" when they would land on 12. At SFO, I only once took off from the 10s and never landed on anything but the 28s.

I now work in downtown Minneapolis and can see the planes coming and going from MSP while I work (from a distance) and have flown extensively in and out of MSP for work. I definitely wouldn't say there is a "usual" direction one might expect to take off/land here or in many places in the country/world.
 
as739x
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting JoePatroni (Reply 12):
For some reason I used to see KLM using the 1s quite regularly for take-off. I always wondered if KLM particularly liked the 1s or if it was just coincidence that I kept seeing it.

I was told by a 777 crew I flew with to SEA (they were picking up a new 77W) that it's in their SOP to operate from the 1's for fuel savings. They are rarely at a weight that forces them into 28 use.

Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
From a pilot's point of view, that's not really accurate. There is nothing about new technology that allows us to handle higher crosswinds than earlier aircraft. The wind limits on the current generation aircraft aren't any different from that of earlier aircraft either.

When it comes to crosswinds and/or tailwinds, it's pretty much up to piloting skill, not the electronics aboard.

HAL

In many ways I agree. But fact, figures and observations from the controller do indicate that the 1's are used a lot less then they have been before. Working with AS for 10 years I remember the MD80's appeared to have a lot less allowable tailwind component. Purely non-professional pilot observation.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
LH707330
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 14):
I was told by a 777 crew I flew with to SEA (they were picking up a new 77W) that it's in their SOP to operate from the 1's for fuel savings. They are rarely at a weight that forces them into 28 use.

This makes sense. When I was at the in-n-out across 101 I would see the KL 77Ws taking off on 1R, helps avoid the long taxi and puts you on a better course for AMS. Every time I've flown BA/LH/UA/LX to Europe on a 744/777/A343, we always left off the 28s, do those carriers have different SOPs that call for greater derates? My last KL SFO-AMS trip was in 1995 on a 743, but I don't remember which runway we left from.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:21 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 15):
do those carriers have different SOPs that call for greater derates? My last KL SFO-AMS trip was in 1995 on a 743, but I don't remember which runway we left from.

In years of flying into and out of SFO, I can't remember ever taking the 28s when the 1s would have worked. Or put another way, when we needed the 28s, it was for (relatively) heavy loads.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
as739x
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 15):

To be honest, I don't know. Just picked up the info from the KL guys since I was on a flight with them.

I've scene VS and BA both use 01R before as well. LH/LX I have not scene them depart the 1's before, but they do use G gates and the taxi is the same for them to either runway.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
chrisair
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 16):
In years of flying into and out of SFO, I can't remember ever taking the 28s when the 1s would have worked. Or put another way, when we needed the 28s, it was for (relatively) heavy loads.

I've done departures off the 28s when winds are too strong for the 1s. It usually happens in late afternoon in the summer. In fact a few years ago I was on a WN flight that got caught up in an extended ground delay on the taxiway out in the bay. We had to wait for the Blue Angels to finish their practice run before we could depart (or so the pilots told us).
 
FlyHossD
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 18):
I've done departures off the 28s when winds are too strong for the 1s. It usually happens in late afternoon in the summer. In fact a few years ago I was on a WN flight that got caught up in an extended ground delay on the taxiway out in the bay. We had to wait for the Blue Angels to finish their practice run before we could depart (or so the pilots told us).

Perhpas I should have been more clear - the only reason to take the 28s for departure - when the 1s would have worked including wind considerations was due to loads too heavy to permit a departure off the 1s. IIRC, every 767 flight I flew out of SFO was off the 28s and that was due to weight, not the winds.

I don't remember ever needing the 28s for a 737 or 757 departure because of a heavy load.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
chrisair
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:37 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 19):
I don't remember ever needing the 28s for a 737 or 757 departure because of a heavy load.

Ah! Makes sense. I hear the departure off the 19s is fun. Haven't experienced that one yet.
 
Star784
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:03 pm

Hello everyone I'm new to the forums...

Anyways landing on runway 10l/10r and 1l /1r are rare.. But this happened twice this year for both. I listened on live atc when it happened.

The second time the 10's were used for landing was on a very windy and rainy day on February I believe. Winds were from 120 at around 20kts. But the configuration used was takeoff 10l and 10r landing 19r and ILS 19L. It seemed like they were trying to avoid using the 10's for landing but then the winds picked up to above 30kts. They switched to the 10's for landing for about 30 minutes then switched back to the 19's after the strong winds died down a little bit. I actually took screenshots of the flight paths to the 10's on flightaware.

I was listening on liveatc during a very strong windy day a few weeks ago which drove all aircraft to land on 1l/1r. They were done as circle to land approaches. ILs Approach 28l or 28r circle to 1l or 1r. Atc told aircraft to circle at SFO 4 or 5 DME.

Anyways what probably a lot of people didn't know that there is another way of approaching to the 1's. there is a published instrument approach called VOR-B. It's only has circling minima and circling is only allowed on runways 1l/1r during the daytime. It's basically an approach to the 10's then breaking off to circle to the 1's. I never heard this being used though and it's probably even rarer than the regular circle to land approach to the 1's.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1404/00375VB.PDF

[Edited 2014-04-18 10:07:19]
 
as739x
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting Star784 (Reply 21):

I have observed a circle to land to 1L ONE time from the west!! But it was not off this approach. It was a KingAir just doing a visual. And it was over 10 years ago   This would not be an easy approach for most plane due to the curvature of the terrain.

Great find on the chart Star!!
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:54 pm

When I was a kid in Millbrae in the 1970s they did straight in approaches to Runway 1s when the winds dictated. The didn't do the circle to land approaches like they do now. Straight in over the hill. It was really spectacular being up in the hills and looking at the underside of a 747. I recall airplanes such as Air California 737s going straight into 1L.

For takeoffs on the 19s, the did turn immediately to the south after lift off so didn't go up over Millbrae.

I was told that the airport had an agreement with the neighborhoods to only land on the 1s when really necessary. It seemed like only a few times a year.

On a different note, I recall the PSA L-1011s used to take off from 1L regularly, so there was an example of a heavy using that runway.
 
Passedv1
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RE: How Often Does SFO Land On Rwys 10L/R & 1L/R?

Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 3):
To add to this. As a local controller told me. With the new technology of airplanes, they are much more equipped to handle cross winds and tailwinds then planes in the past.
Quoting HAL (Reply 6):
From a pilot's point of view, that's not really accurate. There is nothing about new technology that allows us to handle higher crosswinds than earlier aircraft. The wind limits on the current generation aircraft aren't any different from that of earlier aircraft either.

When it comes to crosswinds and/or tailwinds, it's pretty much up to piloting skill, not the electronics aboard.

HAL

If anything it has gone the other way on average. Bigger engines and the new Schimatar winglets are making crosswind landings interesting on the 737 fleet at least.

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