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DeltaXNA
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Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:49 am

If they ever got rid of the perimeter...what kind of added services would we see in terms of flights?
 
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STT757
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:45 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
If they ever got rid of the perimeter...what kind of added services would we see in terms of flights?

UA and AA would move their premium Trans-Con services from JFK to LGA, DL would probably follow.
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planeguy727
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:51 am

From what I've heard, and I'm not claiming these are reliable sources, the lack of beyond perimeter is political to protect service to smaller markets.

The prevailing wisdom is that the JFK-SFO/LAX services like UA PS, etc. would move to LGA quickly if the restrictions were lifted. I suspect more transcon flights would appear (SEA, SAN, PHX, SLC, etc).

A better consideration - would there be an increase in flights from Pre-Clearance international destinations (YVR, LCY, etc.)?
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ScottB
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 2):
From what I've heard, and I'm not claiming these are reliable sources, the lack of beyond perimeter is political to protect service to smaller markets.

Your sources aren't reliable. The LGA perimeter is a Port Authority policy, not a law. It was put into place mainly to protect JFK; once the 757 entered service, the airlines had equipment which could reach the West Coast even from LGA's 7,000-foot runways. Western had wanted to start SLC-LGA service just prior to its merger with DL but was denied; they sued and eventually lost.

Quoting DeltaXNA (Thread starter):
If they ever got rid of the perimeter...what kind of added services would we see in terms of flights?

Virtually all domestic flights over 1500 miles in distance would be shifted from JFK to LGA and we'd likely see reductions to AA & UA hubs as they would reallocate their LGA slots to the transcontinental markets. DL would probably reduce some of the smaller markets they serve from LGA to enter ten or so markets outside the perimeter.

Oh, and FWIW the perimeter does not apply on Saturday.
 
SouthernDC9
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:48 pm

Why doesn't LGA have a handful of outside-the-perimeter slots, like DCA (i.e. maybe 3 to LAX, 2 to SFO etc to allow for legacy and LCC competition)? Is the concern that even a small number of trans-cons could throw off the LGA/JFK dynamic?
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ScottB
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 4):
Why doesn't LGA have a handful of outside-the-perimeter slots, like DCA (i.e. maybe 3 to LAX, 2 to SFO etc to allow for legacy and LCC competition)?

A bit politics, a bit of unwillingness to meddle in local affairs. DCA got beyond-perimeter slots in part so that Congressmen from out West could get non-stops back home, and in part to help out the hometown carriers in PHX, DEN, & SEA. There would likely be significant opposition from the N.Y. & N.J. delegations to externally-imposed changes to the LGA perimeter.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:28 pm

These debates that occur in cities with multiple airports have intreagued me for a long time. Chicago and Houston take a very hands off approach. Both airports in those cities are thriving. Dallas/Ft. Worth, New York and Washington, DC regulate their situations. I see a whole lot of politics in those 3 situations. In my opinion the DAL vs. DFW issue should now be moot. DFW is a thriving airport and WN is a large, strong airline. Neither need protection any longer. Washington, DC is a mess. Any time some congressman needs his or her back scratched, some new perimiter exemption is granted. Additionally, IAD fights with one hand behind it's back because of a lack of decent public transportation to IAD. The smart soulutikn would have been to do what Denver did: build a single airport big enough to handle all of the area's traffic and close the old airport. However, as usual, politics prevailed over economics. As for New York. I don't know how things would shake out. LGA is preferred over JFK but since LGA can't handle intercontinental operations the airlines would have to decide whether they want a hub to connect domestic-international passengers (JFK) or if they simply wNt to serve the local O&D market (domestic/Canadian flights from LGA & intercontinental ops at JFK). It would be interesting to see what would play out if the free market were allowed d to function.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 4):
Why doesn't LGA have a handful of outside-the-perimeter slots, like DCA (i.e. maybe 3 to LAX, 2 to SFO etc to allow for legacy and LCC competition)? Is the concern that even a small number of trans-cons could throw off the LGA/JFK dynamic?



Yes, the drip by drip losing of DCA's perimeter restrictions is really hurting IAD. JFK would simarly be adveresly affected by LGA's losened perimeter rules.
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deltaguy767
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Yes, the drip by drip losing of DCA's perimeter restrictions is really hurting IAD. JFK would simarly be adveresly affected by LGA's losened perimeter rules

This topic came up in the BA LCY service discussion.For the incumbent carriers not named DL would they really have the requisite facilities to maintain their current hub and key cities schedules and add Transcon services in the event of a perimeter easing?

From DL's perspective I could see them canning some of their shakier RJ flights in exchange for more premium transcon services, however given the build-up with facilities at JFK I'm not sure you would see them fully commit to that approach. I could see a handful of SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA (maybe LAS).

This is a fool's errand to ponder much, principally because if there is one thing that is true above all else in NYC it is that politics trumps logic!
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):

UA and AA would move their premium Trans-Con services from JFK to LGA, DL would probably follow.

For UA it would make complete sense, since their JFK flying is virtually limited to the transcon flying. For DL and AA, it would be a stretch to see every single flight from LAX/SFO (SEA for DL) to end up over at LGA. Sure you may see the flights split down the middle, but with no European bound flights from LGA, it would be almost stupid for these two to place all transcon flying over to LGA.
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SouthernDC9
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
A bit politics, a bit of unwillingness to meddle in local affairs. DCA got beyond-perimeter slots in part so that Congressmen from out West could get non-stops back home, and in part to help out the hometown carriers in PHX, DEN, & SEA. There would likely be significant opposition from the N.Y. & N.J. delegations to externally-imposed changes to the LGA perimeter.

Interesting, that makes sense, thanks!
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 6):
Chicago and Houston take a very hands off approach. Both airports in those cities are thriving. Dallas/Ft. Worth, New York and Washington, DC regulate their situations.

It's a bit different between those cities.

Neither MDW nor HOU is significantly more convenient than ORD/IAH, but it's hard to argue IAD over DCA for most of the metro.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:13 pm

I doubt we will see this happen...........LGA is meant for more regional flights.

If they allowed it to be a free for all the smaller cities would suffer at the expense of the LAX, SFO, SLC, LAS, PHX, SEA flights that would be added. This does protect the smaller cities to keep the closer in LGA for business travellers who may not be staying overnight, or might be very frequent travellers.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:27 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 12):
If they allowed it to be a free for all the smaller cities would suffer at the expense of the LAX, SFO, SLC, LAS, PHX, SEA flights that would be added. This does protect the smaller cities to keep the closer in LGA for business travellers who may not be staying overnight, or might be very frequent travellers.

The perimeter rule punishes those of us on the West Coast in terms of ground transportation costs (getting from EWR or JFK to Manhattan is much more expensive than going to/from LGA).

LGA already has slot controls, why not let the airlines choose where to fly with those precious slots?

Maybe Joe Traveller from smalltown USA can fly to JFK for a while?

The perimeter rule is as dumb and outdated as the Wright Amendment was for Love Field.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:43 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 13):
The perimeter rule punishes those of us on the West Coast in terms of ground transportation costs (getting from EWR or JFK to Manhattan is much more expensive than going to/from LGA).

Can't speak for EWR but taxi fare from JFK into Manhattan vs LGA is not that much of a variance. Metered fares even on good days from LGA into Midtown will run you $35, only $17 more than the JFK flat fare of $52. Now from a traffic point of view, yes the Van Wyck is a disaster but the Grand Central/BQE can be just as bad sometimes.
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 13):

The perimeter rule punishes those of us on the West Coast in terms of ground transportation costs (getting from EWR or JFK to Manhattan is much more expensive than going to/from LGA).

It's by far cheaper to get to midtown from JFK than it is from LGA. With LGA, you are limited to cab or town car service. At least with JFK, I spend a fraction on those costs by taking the trains and (pending any track delays) can get there just as quickly as I would if I were in a vehicle.
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:47 pm

If the perimeter rule were to be removed, I can see BA moving their A318 flights to LGA.
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Viscount724
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 16):
If the perimeter rule were to be removed, I can see BA moving their A318 flights to LGA.

They could only move one of the two daily LCY-JFK flights to LGA. Only pre-cleared international flights can use LGA and the second BA LCY-JFK flight can't pre-clear during the SNN fuel stop as the pre-clearance facility is closed then. That flight has to clear on arrival at JFK.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:20 pm

Even though it is the port authority it is still a government agency, subject to elected oversight and funding, so there will always be politics. If the BS perimiter rule were removed (I do not believe in such regulations) I would agree with others a lot more flagship routes would be shift to there such as the transcons, the BA 318, and possibly some of the other EU bound 757 (if that runway is long enough for a heavy 757).
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 13):
The perimeter rule punishes those of us on the West Coast in terms of ground transportation costs (getting from EWR or JFK to Manhattan is much more expensive than going to/from LGA).

LGA-midtown...$2.50 on the Q70 bus/EFR7 train. JFK-midtown...$5.00 on the AirTrain plus $2.50 on the E train. A whopping $5.00 more.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 13):
The perimeter rule is as dumb and outdated as the Wright Amendment was for Love Field.

It wasn't dumb when first instituted, but now is outdated.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 15):
With LGA, you are limited to cab or town car service. At least with JFK, I spend a fraction on those costs by taking the trains and (pending any track delays) can get there just as quickly as I would if I were in a vehicle.

LGA is served by numerous city buses that all connect to the NYC subway and regional trains. The Q70 (limited stops) connects with the EFR7 trains at 74th St/Roosevelt (Jackson Heights) and with the LIRR at 61st Street (Woodside). The Q48 connects with the 7 train, LIRR, and a plethora of buses at Main Street (Flushing). The M60 crosses the Triboro/Ed Koch bridge into Manhattan and continues crosstown on 125th Street (Harlem), connecting to the 123456ABCD trains, the Metro North RR, and a crapload of NYC buses. The Q47 and Q72 also serve LGA with redundant service.

So no, you're not limited to taxis and limos to get to/from LGA.

BTW/FYI/FWIW.....it's only $2.50 point-to-point. With an unlimited MetroCard, it's virtually free.

That said...when I arrive at LGA from ATL/LAX, I take a cab home. I live close by and it's only $10 with tip.
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Yes, the drip by drip losing of DCA's perimeter restrictions is really hurting IAD. JFK would simarly be adveresly affected by LGA's losened perimeter rules.

Simplest post on the forum and SPOT ON!

Perimeter was put in place to protect JFK and make people use the bigger, farther-away-from-city-center airport.

It is a solid rule and has worked well for both airports for 40 years.

The only time it didn't work so well was in the late 90s/early 2000s when LGA became a 50 seat RJ heaven.

That problem has fixed itself due to divestitures to LCCs with mainline equipment AND 50 seaters being retired at Legacies for market dynamics.

The PANYNJ doesn't need the mess created in IAD/DCA (you can now hold picnics on IADs runways without threat of seeing an airplane) in NYC.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
LGA is served by numerous city buses that all connect to the NYC subway and regional trains. The Q70 (limited stops) connects with the EFR7 trains at 74th St/Roosevelt (Jackson Heights) and with the LIRR at 61st Street (Woodside). The Q48 connects with the 7 train, LIRR, and a plethora of buses at Main Street (Flushing). The M60 crosses the Triboro/Ed Koch bridge into Manhattan and continues crosstown on 125th Street (Harlem), connecting to the 123456ABCD trains, the Metro North RR, and a crapload of NYC buses. The Q47 and Q72 also serve LGA with redundant service.

So no, you're not limited to taxis and limos to get to/from LGA.

BTW/FYI/FWIW.....it's only $2.50 point-to-point. With an unlimited MetroCard, it's virtually free.

That said...when I arrive at LGA from ATL/LAX, I take a cab home. I live close by and it's only $10 with tip.

You're not, but as someone that's done the buses quite a bit, it can be a major pain in the behind.

First, those buses can get pretty crowded, especially with a few suitcases. I tend to have much more room on the LIRR AirTrain. Then dealing with the transfers to/from the subway normally mean lugging my bag up and down stairs a few times at least.

Heck, even last month I decided to bus it to the Marine Terminal. Took the 7 out to Queens, transferred somewhere where a bus to the Marine Terminal was supposed to come every 20 minutes. After waiting 10 minutes, I ended up just hailing a cab to get me there since my flight was leaving in 35 minutes at that point (thankfully Delta Shuttle is a 15 minute check in time).

Now when I come into LaGuardia, I don't even think about it - hop in a cab to Midtown and avoid the rush hour bus/subway mess. At JFK, at least the LIRR is in good shape.
 
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ADent
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:46 pm

There is an exception to the perimeter rule: Denver.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Neither MDW nor HOU is significantly more convenient than ORD/IAH, but it's hard to argue IAD over DCA for most of the metro

I find MDW to be significantly more convenient from the Loop, both in terms of getting there and once at the airport.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
LGA-midtown...$2.50 on the Q70 bus/EFR7 train. JFK-midtown...$5.00 on the AirTrain plus $2.50 on the E train. A whopping $5.00 more.

Or the LIRR, of course, and it's not difficult at all anymore. The AirTrain is a really good thing.

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 6):
The smart soulutikn would have been to do what Denver did: build a single airport big enough to handle all of the area's traffic and close the old airport.

Denver was replacing one airport with one bigger, more distant airport. In the case of DC, IAD has enough runways and space to be that airport, but it's just a non-starter with no viable mass transit (even the Silver Line will be long, delay-prone, and several years away) and horrendous traffic until you get off 66. Other than that, there's nowhere in the entire area that you could put any such airport. And in the case of NYC, where would you put the airport?
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:52 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 22):
There is an exception to the perimeter rule: Denver.

Yeah, sweet deal for UA. How about SLC for Delta, PANYNJ?
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
lhcvg
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:19 am

Quoting xjramper (Reply 9):
Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
UA and AA would move their premium Trans-Con services from JFK to LGA, DL would probably follow.
For UA it would make complete sense, since their JFK flying is virtually limited to the transcon flying. For DL and AA, it would be a stretch to see every single flight from LAX/SFO (SEA for DL) to end up over at LGA. Sure you may see the flights split down the middle, but with no European bound flights from LGA, it would be almost stupid for these two to place all transcon flying over to LGA.

Very good point -- for all but the hub tenants, it would make sense to all but close up shop @ JFK and shift everything to LGA (assuming they had enough total slots to offer what they considered to be the optimum economical level of service).

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 24):
Quoting ADent (Reply 22):There is an exception to the perimeter rule: Denver.
Yeah, sweet deal for UA. How about SLC for Delta, PANYNJ?

IIRC DEN is only there because it was grandfathered in since UA was already flying to Stapleton when the perimeter was implemented. Don't quote me on that, but that's what I thought the deal was, no particular politics here except for why the other carriers didn't get equal treatment ex post facto just to be nice (not saying they should or shouldn't).
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 25):
IIRC DEN is only there because it was grandfathered in since UA was already flying to Stapleton when the perimeter was implemented. Don't quote me on that, but that's what I thought the deal was, no particular politics here except for why the other carriers didn't get equal treatment ex post facto just to be nice (not saying they should or shouldn't).

Correct.
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):

Would be no fallowing. The day, unlikely as it is, LGA allows non-stop flying to the west daily Delta will be adding as many flights as they can.

Quoting xjramper (Reply 9):

I am sure some flying would stay at JFK to feed the international hub, but SFO/PHX/PDX/LAX/LAS/SEA/SLC would all get LGA flights.

Quoting deltaguy767 (Reply 8):

While the feed flights for the JFK Hub would stay, LGA would see flights to all of the current JFK tcons.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 25):
Don't quote me on that, but that's what I thought the deal was, no particular politics here except for why the other carriers didn't get equal treatment ex post facto just to be nice (not saying they should or shouldn't).

UA isn't even getting special treatment, anyone can fly DEN-LGA (and of course DL and F9 both do) as it is treated as if DEN falls within the perimeter. Just so happens that UA can capitalize the most from it.
 
lhcvg
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 28):
UA isn't even getting special treatment, anyone can fly DEN-LGA (and of course DL and F9 both do) as it is treated as if DEN falls within the perimeter. Just so happens that UA can capitalize the most from it.

Thanks for clarifying that -- very true that it's airport-specific and not airline-specific.
 
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 5):
A bit politics, a bit of unwillingness to meddle in local affairs. DCA got beyond-perimeter slots in part so that Congressmen from out West could get non-stops back home, and in part to help out the hometown carriers in PHX, DEN, & SEA.

Yes the better question is why DCA got beyond the perimeter slots. It was because of lobbying by congressmen. DCA is their local airport and they wanted to get home quicker. Also congressmen were heavily lobbied by airlines in their home states to make it happen. LGA doesn't have a political climate where congressmen can interfere as easily.
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:41 am

Quoting xjramper (Reply 15):
It's by far cheaper to get to midtown from JFK than it is from LGA. With LGA, you are limited to cab or town car service. At least with JFK, I spend a fraction on those costs by taking the trains and (pending any track delays) can get there just as quickly as I would if I were in a vehicle.

  

I actually prefer JFK because I can take the LIRR from Penn Station and then switch to the AirTrain at Jamaica. Even though I take issue with paying the ridiculous $5 AirTrain fare, all said and done it ends up being $12 off-peak.

My cab ride from LaGuardia to Grand Central last week was $55 due to traffic in the area, and it took roughly the same amount of time as public transportation ex-JFK.

I would suggest that LGA get some better public transportation links, but seeing how long the MTA takes to accomplish any capital project, I'm not sure it's wise to even bring that up.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:23 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 3):
The LGA perimeter is a Port Authority policy, not a law. It was put into place mainly to protect JFK

One more reason why the PANYNJ should be investigated by the DOJ and broken up like Standard Oil (pretty sure it wouldn't be difficult to find some criminal violations of anti-trust law). Allow them to keep one airport and two Hudson river crossings, tops (not both tunnels) and force them to merge the PATH system with the NYC subway.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
LGA-midtown...$2.50 on the Q70 bus/EFR7 train.

A bus very few people know about is not a proper mode of public transportation for someone arriving in the largest city in the U.S.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 23):
And in the case of NYC, where would you put the airport?

Two words: Staten Island. I am sure Long Island and Jersey would be able to take the hair-gel overflow if some people need relocating.  
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catiii
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:30 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 3):
Your sources aren't reliable. The LGA perimeter is a Port Authority policy, not a law. It was put into place mainly to protect JFK; once the 757 entered service, the airlines had equipment which could reach the West Coast even from LGA's 7,000-foot runways. Western had wanted to start SLC-LGA service just prior to its merger with DL but was denied; they sued and eventually lost.

One point of clarification, pre-757/767, airlines serving LGA had the equipment to reach the west coast from LGA. DL, EA, and TW regularly had L10 service, and UA and AA had D10 service. Western was going to fly SLC with the 727, not the 757.
 
point2point
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:45 am

With 1617 miles between them, it's a good thing that DEN managed to get grandfathered here, since commercial airplanes at the time of the invoking of the perimeter were able to fly DEN-LGA-DEN nonstop, and DEN is and remains the only station beyond the 1500 mile perimeter that can operate without any restrictions to/from LGA (of course a carrier needs slots, but that goes for all stations).

Quoting Polot (Reply 28):
anyone can fly DEN-LGA (and of course DL and F9 both do)

And now with UA, F9, DL and of course now let's not forget WN are all serving the route with some dozen daily nonstops, probably a good portion of those pax in areas west of DEN that have no nonstops probably use DEN as a convenient (more or less) xfer point. Of course, there is a lot of O&D there as well, and good thing because I found that LGA-DEN-LGA (and at least a dozen times on F9) was the most convenient when I traveled between the two cities.

 
 
catiii
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:03 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 32):

Huh? Under what grounds would the DOJ be able to do so? the Supreme Court has held that, in keeping with principles of federalism, federal antitrust laws do not reach actions of states. When the government of a state acts, either through its legislature, judiciary, or executive, its actions are automatically exempted from antitrust liability. PANYNJ is a bi-state agency under the auspices of two state governments.

Additionally, you want NY and NJ to have fewer Hudson River crossings? Obviously spoken as someone whose never lived in the region...
 
ScottB
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 6):
IAD fights with one hand behind it's back because of a lack of decent public transportation to IAD.

Lack of public transit links is not IAD's key problem. Even with the eventual completion of the WMATA Silver Line to Dulles, lengthy travel time and high fares on the airport's dominant carrier will continue to suppress traffic when alternatives are available from DCA. Given the choice of a 15-minute ride from downtown to a station which is steps from the terminal versus an hour-long ride to a station a quarter-mile from the terminal and another train ride to the departure gate, DCA is going to win unless a passenger is extraordinarily loyal to UA or the fare is considerably cheaper from IAD. And low fares are not United's business model.
 
global2
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
LGA is served by numerous city buses that all connect to the NYC subway and regional trains. The Q70 (limited stops) connects with the EFR7 trains at 74th St/Roosevelt (Jackson Heights) and with the LIRR at 61st Street (Woodside). The Q48 connects with the 7 train, LIRR, and a plethora of buses at Main Street (Flushing). The M60 crosses the Triboro/Ed Koch bridge into Manhattan and continues crosstown on 125th Street (Harlem), connecting to the 123456ABCD trains, the Metro North RR, and a crapload of NYC buses. The Q47 and Q72 also serve LGA with redundant service.


OMG--and you could have taken Amtrak to New York from anywhere in less time it takes for those Queens buses to show up.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:11 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 35):
Additionally, you want NY and NJ to have fewer Hudson River crossings? Obviously spoken as someone whose never lived in the region...

I live in Hoboken and work in NYC. I cross the Hudson River every day...

Where did I say there should be less Hudson River crossings? I said the PANYNJ should have less, which would mean they would be forced to divest of some of them (like BAA was forced to sell airports in London). They should also be forced to divest of the PATH, due to the obvious conflict of interest. As it stands, since on weekends the Lincoln and Holland tunnels have some spare capacity the PANYNJ makes PATH weekend service deliberately crappy and frustrating to get more people to drive to the city instead so they can charge you $13 in tolls instead of $2.00 in a PATH ticket.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
opethfan
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 2):
A better consideration - would there be an increase in flights from Pre-Clearance international destinations (YVR, LCY, etc.)?

Curiously, the only pre-cleared flight into NYC from YVR is AC's into EWR. DL's summer seasonal to JFK is a red eye and isn't pre-cleared (had a hell of a time explaining that to DL) nor is CX's onward connection from HKG.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:10 am

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 18):
Even though it is the port authority it is still a government agency, subject to elected oversight and funding, so there will always be politics. If the BS perimiter rule were removed (I do not believe in such regulations) I would agree with others a lot more flagship routes would be shift to there such as the transcons, the BA 318, and possibly some of the other EU bound 757 (if that runway is long enough for a heavy 757).

You'd REALLY bring an international flight into LGA with the condition of that Terminal and call it a USA Gateway?? Seriously??
 
JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
LGA-midtown...$2.50 on the Q70 bus/EFR7 train. JFK-midtown...$5.00 on the AirTrain plus $2.50 on the E train. A whopping $5.00 more.

Do you know how big of a pain in the butt that is to take the bus and subway to/from LGA with luggage? It's a nightmare. Yes, the buses are very crowded, and the 7 line is probably the closest subway access. It's elevated until Hunterspoint Avenue. Trust me, you don't want to lug suitcases on this trip. JFK is much easier with public transit and luggage. AirTrain to the LIRR is the easiest way to go. Don't kid yourself.
In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
 
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mariner
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:27 am

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 41):
Do you know how big of a pain in the butt that is to take the bus and subway to/from LGA with luggage? It's a nightmare

There used to be a ferry, from Wall Street/Pier 11 and East 34th Street, to LGA. I dunno if it is still operating (I guess not) but I always enjoyed that,  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:39 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 33):
One point of clarification, pre-757/767, airlines serving LGA had the equipment to reach the west coast from LGA. DL, EA, and TW regularly had L10 service, and UA and AA had D10 service. Western was going to fly SLC with the 727, not the 757.

The issue is the short runways with full loads. The 757 has the power to do it.

Quoting Global2 (Reply 37):
OMG--and you could have taken Amtrak to New York from anywhere in less time it takes for those Queens buses to show up.

Lived in Queens forever. Never take a bus. Worst really. Walking is quicker. I will say the M60 from LGA to the city is not bad as it is a) frequent b) runs on the highway or highway service road for most of the stretch in Queens. It is what it is and it works if you really want to use it.

I have heard good things about the new Limited bus from LGA to Roosevelt Ave on the 7. Only makes 2 stops. Pilots I fly with (who are from the midwest and south to give perspective) say it is good, quick, and cheap.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 40):
You'd REALLY bring an international flight into LGA with the condition of that Terminal and call it a USA Gateway?? Seriously??

That terminal should be documented in a book. Short of the old DTW terminal, I have never seen anything that bad anywhere
 
HPRamper
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Yes, the drip by drip losing of DCA's perimeter restrictions is really hurting IAD. JFK would simarly be adveresly affected by LGA's losened perimeter rules.

Perhaps similarly, but not to the same extent. NYC will always have much more of an international and intercontinental demand as one of the world's most important business markets on top of being simply one of the biggest cities in the world. The DC travel market is much more heavily domestic, for obvious reasons. As such, DCA has the potential to hurt IAD more than LGA could possibly do to JFK.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 25):
IIRC AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN is only there because it was grandfathered in since UA was already flying to Stapleton when the perimeter was implemented.

YRC

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 32):
A bus very few people know about

The crowds imply otherwise.

Quoting Global2 (Reply 37):
OMG--and you could have taken Amtrak to New York from anywhere in less time it takes for those Queens buses to show up.

ha ha, not true, not funny at all

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 39):
Curiously, the only pre-cleared flight into NYC from YVR is AC's into EWR

Curiously, EWR is NOT in NYC.

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 41):
Do you know how big of a pain in the butt that is to take the bus and subway to/from LGA with luggage? It's a nightmare. Yes, the buses are very crowded, and the 7 line is probably the closest subway access. It's elevated until Hunterspoint Avenue. Trust me, you don't want to lug suitcases on this trip. JFK is much easier with public transit and luggage. AirTrain to the LIRR is the easiest way to go. Don't kid yourself.

I'm the first one on the Q70 at 61st St. I don't EVER check/lug/schlep luggage. At 74th St the bus gets filled, but never so filled as to leave people behind. ~10/15 minutes and we're there. What's the big deal even WITH luggage? There are elevators at every level at 61st St/74th St/Junction Blvd(Q72). It might not work for princesses/divas/Big Mama Jamas, but it works for most. AND AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT'S ONLY $2.50 (or 'free' with an unlimited MetroCard) FROM ANYWHERE IN THE CITY!!!

Don't kid YOURself!


Where did THIS come from??? --->AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">

[Edited 2014-04-18 07:30:25]
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
catiii
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):

And again, antitrust laws do not apply to actions of states. So under what anticompetitive grounds can you force a state agency to divest for lack of "competition?"
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:47 pm

He's not saying they CAN force them, he's saying they SHOULD force them. Just wishful thinking.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
travelin man
Posts: 3248
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 19):
LGA-midtown...$2.50 on the Q70 bus/EFR7 train. JFK-midtown...$5.00 on the AirTrain plus $2.50 on the E train. A whopping $5.00 more.

Right, because when people go to NYC on business, they are interested in shlepping their luggage onto the Air Train and then a subway and taking an hour or an hour and a half to get to Manhattan.

The Perimeter rule punishes Western travelers (aside from Denver) in either $$ or time. There is no way you can convince me it is easier or cheaper to get to JFK than it is to LGA (at least via taxi or car). I've been to both.

There is a reason LGA is the preferred airport from Manhattan (or else it wouldn't be subject to the Perimeter Rule in the first place).
 
NYC-air
Posts: 164
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RE: Why Doesn't LGA Have Beyond Perimeter Slots?

Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:18 pm

I think, rather than getting rid of the perimeter, it would be great to white list certain cities that currently have limited service from JFK/EWR.

Take YYC for example, doesn't NYC have an interest in increasing trade with this new economic powerhouse? AC currently flies once per day from EWR, but I'm sure they'd up that if they could use LGA.

The perimeter rule may be worthwhile to some degree, but I'd love to see it used to encourage new service from NYC. Might take some creativity.

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