• 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:14 pm

Quoting aftgaffe (Reply 100):

Ah yes, thanks. CNN reported yesterday that the turn and climb was in Vietnamese airspace... but now that you mention it that seems highly unlikely to have been possible.

The last FltRad - ADS-B - position was at 17:20 Z : N 06.93 E 103.59 (those are in degrees and tenths/hundredths of a degree).
Translated into degrees / minutes : these coordinates become : N 06.56 E 103.35, which are exactly those of IGARI which is still in the Singapore FIR SSR.

To be a bit pedantic, if a turnback is made at thay point, it will get just a wee bit into HCM FIR., by a few hundred meters.

[Edited 2014-04-20 11:19:41]
Contrail designer
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:43 pm

Quoting p51tang (Reply 57):
I'm also contemplating the concept of a 'permanent ornament' stranded on such an Island in
the name of safety.Who pays the bill for future loss of income?.

They would find a way to get it off, even if it has to be in pieces. The value of an operational 772 greatly exceeds the cost of the recovery operation.

There was recently a plane named 'Lidia', a DC-3T, that they rebuilt in Antarctica after it crashed on takeoff. Then flew it home to Calgary. Took over a month at *great* cost.

But, a tangent, since our MH370 didn't land anywhere.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
TreeHillRavens
Posts: 283
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:01 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 99):

I think the media is trigger happy right now, reporting anything to do with Malaysia airlines. MH 192 KUL-BLR seems to have turned back due to unknown reasons - http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/20/world/...sia-airlines-flight-192/index.html .It could be a minor technical issue or a medical emergency issue for all we know.

MAS "announced" this themselves on their twitter account. CNN just picked up the news. So this was all on MAS.

MH192 appeared to have been circling above Straits of Malacca for close to 4 hours before it made a successful emergency landing at KLIA.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:58 pm

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 101):
Would maritime salvage law trump annex 13?

No. It's not applicable.

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
I am sure that Boeing and the Malayian government would be happy to use the pilot as a scapegoat. It by far the cheapest solution to most parties involved. The pilot committed suicide. Save the money. Save the day.

AF447 redux, redux, redux .....
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
Certainly. Having the pilot doing suicide is the cheapest solution for many of the parties involved.

It is neither a certain conclusion nor exclusion at this point. I'm not clear on why race or culture or cost or anything else is being thrown up to dissuade it as a possibility. Not much different than the opposite camp, I'd say.

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
By the way - have you noticed that we have got quite a few new members? Strangely enough: all have joined A-net onthe very date or only shortly after the MH370 disappearance. Many of them has the very same style of writing. Some of them no doubt are lying about the professional background. All supporting the very same view.

I've noticed many new members since the accident happened. Have I tracked their writing habits? Across 56 threads? Hardly. I do that with more active posters of course.

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
Wonder what you get paid as a member of the Boeing damage control team which no doubt will be active on a forum like this and even being so with the consent of the Malaysian government.

I suggest you pick the people out who you are accusing of this and name them. Otherwise, spare me. There is no way to know who anyone is on here. Do you work for Airbus? I mean, I'm sure there are many competing interests on these forums. I've argued privately with one very prominent poster in these threads about just such a scenario. Oddly, I was demeaned for not agreeing with him but I digress. Bottom line: I assume that ANYBODY on here may have an agenda, regardless of employer, nationality, religion, political point of view, career, etc.

I do find it interesting that you are quick to condemn people for passing judgment on these pilots, yet you are more than happy to do the same to people who's posting style or content you disagree with.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 813
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 84):
Several days ago Malaysia's own experts were saying they did not have the expertise to do the investigation and were happy to have it done in Australia. So the decision by Malaysia to carry out the investigation themselves can only be seen as a politically motivated, with the aim of controlling the outcome to suit their own ends.

   The Malaysians have co-opted expertise from the BEA, AAIB, NTSB and FAA at the very least, some more discretely than others. Admitting they lack core competencies while leading the investigation is not contradictory, so long as they continue to make use of those resources.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 106):
AF447 redux, redux, redux .....

See this is an entirely different matter.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 107):
I do that with more active posters of course.

You could start by now... We have already over 100 post on this treat.

[Edited 2014-04-20 14:28:35]
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
He said that in his experience, the Satcom never ( stress never ) stops exchanging data with the satellite. the so-called "call every hour at fixed times" is a load of bull and these "handshakes" happen several times every minute.

To him, it is disingenuous to say that we only have ten loci... It could be one hundred and probably more...
(I went back to downloaqd the BFO diagram made public) and he said :"You see ? In the space of two minutes, they acknowledge at least thee *pings* and as far as I know, no message was exchanged then !


To counter such rather strong comments, we need to know for sure the satcom configuration of 9M-MRO. Something the Malaysian Minister of Defense and/or MAS could have provided without breaching too much secrecy. But they never did.

Mandala499 discussed the configuration several times, starting in part 15, post 60:

Quote:
9M-MRO does not have the High Gain Antenna.
It may have the Low Gain Antenna... but I can't confirm it due to its size, but there is a 3rd 'blade' (the front most) between the wing's trailing edge and the tailfin along the top of the fuselage.

There are many snapshots of 9M-MRO on A.net. Some clearly show an Omni-directional Blade satcom antenna on top of the fuselage, for instance:
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Malay...d=7c8a8fea2596a160735589bf4e1818fe

What I believe is a low gain satcom antenna is on the picture above the word "Malaysia" in red. I could not identify for sure the make and model of that antenna although I really tried (if you do know, please share!). Some antennas by Cobham, Honeywell and EMS look similar. My guess is that 9M-MRO has an old ARINC 741 type antenna that is no longer sold. It was probably installed when 9M-MRO was manufactured around 1998,

With that antenna and operating on Inmarsat 3 satellites, I surmise that 9M-MRO was using a reliable but very low speed Aero L service (one of the Classic Aero possible services) , that offers packet data but nothing else.

Low speed means really low speed. The P channel continuously transmitted by the GES using the global beam to inform a/c and request actions by the a/c would operate at best at a speed of 1,200 bits/s. And since satellite transmissions can be affected by significant bit errors, I would guess that Inmarsat uses a strong coding rate (rate 1/2?) meaning that half of the bits transmitted are used to correct the other half that carries the actual message(s) from GES to a/c. 600 bits/s is indeed low speed.

Keep in mind that the P channel is not just for 9M-MRO, but for all a/c in the footprint (about 1/4 of the earth surface).

When the GES generates what is referred to as a "ping", it is IMO just to determine whether the resources allocated to the a/c should be maintained or released. How does 9M-MRO respond when it receives a message on the P channel with its own id. Within a set delay (essential for RTD measurements), the a/c must send a response on the R channel which is organized as a slotted Aloha channel. A slotted Aloha channel is like a roulette wheel. To send a response, the a/c must pick an empty slot and send its response in that slot. Easy enough you think except that the a/c has to pick a slot while being bind folded. The a/c cannot listen to the R channel (only the satellite at its position and with its large antenna can), therefore It cannot know which slots are empty or already filled or being filled by other a/c's somewhere, maybe many thousands of miles away. The a/c just has to chance it. Statistical analysis has shown that as long as the fill level is much lower than 30%, slotted Aloha channels work pretty well. Of course with unavoidable collisions and lost messages from time to time.

This rather long presentation is my attempt at convincing anyone who thinks that there might be 100's of hidden messages with 9M-MRO in the background that Inmarsat is unlikely to have done anything that would incredibly reduce their already minuscule capacity.

I must admit that their is one possibility where such messages could actually exist but only for 9M-MRO, not for other a/c's that were in the air at the same time. In my post #115, thread 48, I suggested the following:

Quote:
ATCs around the world would only need to know how to perform an https logon to a central site where they could designate the aircraft to be added to the emergency watch list, together with its last known location. Inmarsat could automatically pick up that emergency watch list and via the appropriate earth station for each aircraft in trouble request a "enhanced ping" response.

The enhanced ping would just require that Inmarsat's GES keep one timer increment per aircraft rather than the same timer increment for all a/c's.

I don't believe that this is implemented today (ICAO would have to know and organize it ). Besides someone would already have boasted that they implemented and actually used such a neat feature..
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
By the way - have you noticed that we have got quite a few new members? Strangely enough: all have joined A-net onthe very date or only shortly after the MH370 disappearance. Many of them has the very same style of writing. Some of them no doubt are lying about the professional background. All supporting the very same view.

Speaking as a member who joined shortly after the MH370 disappearance - there's nothing strange about that. I started reading here because there was so much good information about it, something in short supply elsewhere on the internet, and eventually paid a subscription. I'm sure that lots of others joined for the same reason. I don't see any reason why any of us should lie about our professional qualifications, and I expect few of us are aviators - it's a mystery that has disturbed people from very different backgrounds.

And I certainly haven't noticed any remarkable convergence of views among those who joined about the same time as I did.
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
When asked how accurate the *loci* could be, he said : their width could be determined to a precision of ten meters, but the problem is assuming an altitude, that would introduce an error of up to 500 meters, maybe a bit more, but I'd be surprised if the lines are determined with a margin of more than a kilometer.

I think you should have bet with your "avionics engineer" friend another very good dinner say at "Le bistrot du Sommelier" that he would pay for if he turns out to be wrong! Not a big risk for you!   
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 51):
The three pings at 1825 Z - 1830 Z are because the aircraft is believed to have made a sharp turn south then and the satellite antenna re-orienting itself due to the new heading. This should not be coming as a new information to you as we have been discussing the last two parts of this thread about it.

I do not believe that a turn per se would cause more messages to flow out of the a/c. If the a/c climbed for a few minutes while heading for the satellite, may be the monitoring of the P channel was lost because the antenna performance is not guaranteed below a certain angle, maybe 15 degrees. That might have caused a new login.

At any rate, Aero L is a store and forward packet protocol. Messages are queued (i believe by priority) for transmission to the GES. Those messages can be useful in that they will have some BFO offset. But they may not be useful for RTD measurements because of the uncertainly re. when they were actually transmitted.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 112):

I think you should have bet with your "avionics engineer"

Sorry, I only bet on subjects I know...

... or on people I've known and respected for a long time...
... and both are of that kind.
... and they don't have any agenda.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
What I believe
Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
I could not identify for sure the make and model of that antenna
Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
I surmise that 9M-MRO was using a reliable but very low speed Aero L service
Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
, it is IMO just to determine whether the resources allocated to the a/c should be maintained or released
Quoting BackSeater (Reply 110):
I must admit that their is one possibility

I have to congratulate you for your honesty, but with so many "caveats" in your post, what you really mean is you're not sure of anything.

I accept that.
Contrail designer
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 114):
I have to congratulate you for your honesty, but with so many "caveats" in your post, what you really mean is you're not sure of anything.

Yes, I admit I am not sure of anything because so little has been put forward by those who could.
When I say "I think", "I surmise", ... I just hope that someone will come forward with some pieces of information that can buttress any theory I am proposing (or actually demonstrate that I am traveling down a blind alley).
Either one is fine with me as I shall go wherever the facts lead. I have no vested interested in any specific outcome.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:07 pm

I think it's best to tread lightly and say you're not 100% sure, even when you are fairly sure, because without knowing the exact equipment onboard 9M-MRO and knowing the exact behaviour of the Inmarsat terminal to an obsessive degree of precision, we can't really be too sure. And even engineers working on their own product make mistakes sometimes about what their equipment "should" do.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:13 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 91):
What an unnecessary, inflammatory thing to say. Do you actually think this type of statement makes you sound impressive?

Let me put it in this way: we are never seeing train drivers smashing their trains full speed into stations in order to commit suicide and killing as many of their passengers as possible. We do not see bus drivers driving their buses out over cliffs or bridges in order to commit suicide and take as many passengers with them as possible. This simply does not happen on a regular basis even if there are many more drivers than pilots. Have you ever heard about it? It seems only to happen among pilots who must indeed be a strange lot. And strangely enough it seems only to happen among non-western pilots flying in non-western airlines - where I doubt there will be resources ready to fond an investigation a la the TWA800.

Murderous suicides outside aviation that do not include people very close to - or otherwise related to - the person concerned (e.g. a farther who kills his children and then kills himself as as consequence of a divorce or a religious group who collectively kills themselves) - is extremely rare. It is only known to occur (outside aviation!) in contexts where certain religious believes are combined with political radicalism. I believe that not all religious beliefs will do in this context. Only such that will allow the act not to be considered as final (there must be a positive reincarnation or a Paradise in waiting). At least that has been the case in all examples I know of (and according to all researchers I know of who have been studying this subject). There has - to my knowledge - only been examples in India and among Muslims with relations to the Middle East. The first case of a murderous suicide was actually the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi 1991. No Muslim murderous suicide has - to my knowledge - been reported before that.

How come that aviation is so strange? How come that drives do not commit suicide by crashing their trains or buses but pilots do so by crashing their planes? I highly suspect that there are good reasons for suspecting that the conclusion: the pilot committed suicide by crashing his (no examples of female pilots as far as I know) plane actually has very little to do with the pilot.....

[Edited 2014-04-20 15:19:40]

[Edited 2014-04-20 15:21:01]

[Edited 2014-04-20 15:22:13]

[Edited 2014-04-20 15:24:22]
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:23 pm

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but depression and anxiety are correlated with high intelligence. The training necessary to fly an airliner requires greater-than-average intelligence. Statistically speaking, you'd expect to see a higher rate of depressed pilots than depressed bus drivers.

Of course that's greatly simplifying the problem, but us mathies like to do that.

And the rate of regular automotive driver suicides is impossible to know, since you don't know if the driver fell asleep/swerved accidentally/etc and hit oncoming traffic/bridge/etc or did it intentionally. I'd surmise that there are a lot more than you'd think.

[Edited 2014-04-20 15:28:29]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 118):
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but depression and anxiety are correlated with high intelligence. The training necessary to fly an airliner requires greater-than-average intelligence. Statistically speaking, you'd expect to see a higher rate of depressed pilots than depressed bus drivers.

Even if there are more depression among pilots than among drivers - and even if there are more suicides among pilots than among drivers (and I expect there to be suicides among pilots on a regular basis taking the number of pilots in the world into consideration) it does not explain why this pilot - or any other pilot - should commit his/her suicide in a way that takes 250 other peoples lives.

I am afraid that the conclusion "the plane crashed because the pilot wanted to commit suicide" can be translated to "we can't afford to find a better explanation".
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 119):
I am afraid that the conclusion "the plane crashed because the pilot wanted to commit suicide" can be translated to "we can't afford to find a better explanation".

Well hey hey I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I think it fits what we know about the flight, and it has happened in the past, although not quite like this. There are other plausible scenarios, none of them just fit as well as 'deliberate action'. This thread has been a constant cycle of people poking holes in theories but deliberate action stands strong, all people can say is "well it's possible but it's not likely since he doesn't seem like the type". Ok. That's fine. A competent investigation will find the true cause when the wreckage is located.
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 118):
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but depression and anxiety are correlated with high intelligence. The training necessary to fly an airliner requires greater-than-average intelligence. Statistically speaking, you'd expect to see a higher rate of depressed pilots than depressed bus drivers.

I don't know of any study that shows that depression and anxiety are correlated with high intelligence, and thus no reason to expect a higher rate of depressed pilots than depressed bus drivers.

So yeah, I'm "correcting you" - or at least asking you to support your assertion with some evidence  

Us psychiatric researchers like to do that....
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:50 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 82):
Would yuou believe, someone has posted on Wiki the known facts

Yes. People are very quick to update Wiki nowadays, however, the finer details available on Wiki are not always accurate. It is good to see when Wiki is correct but it is not surprising when Wiki is incorrect.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 84):
Several days ago Malaysia's own experts were saying they did not have the expertise to do the investigation and were happy to have it done in Australia. So the decision by Malaysia to carry out the investigation themselves can only be seen as a politically motivated, with the aim of controlling the outcome to suit their own ends.

That would seem to be a possibility if that is what they indeed decide to do when something useful is found.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 90):
Problem with a ban on MH flights into protesting countries is that Malaysia would like ban the airlines of protesting countries from flying into Malaysia. That would likely financially cripple MH and some other airlines, with lost jobs, business and trade disruptions and damaged tourism.

MH and possibly other Malaysia based airlines (like Air Asia) would have a lot more to lose.

Quoting abba (Reply 109):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 106):
AF447 redux, redux, redux .....

See this is an entirely different matter.

Agreed.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 121):
So yeah, I'm "correcting you" - or at least asking you to support your assertion with some evidence  

Us psychiatric researchers like to do that....

Well, it's at least correlated with higher alcohol intake: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...elligent-people-drink-more-alcohol

which itself is linked to depression in both directions: http://www.webmd.com/depression/alcohol-and-depresssion

There is a link to bipolar disorder: http://psychcentral.com/lib/intellig...linked-to-bipolar-disorder/0005518

I am struggling to find a study that directly links intelligence metrics to depression, perhaps it's just some pop-sci nonsense I heard, but I'll keep looking.

Emotional intelligence seems to be negatively correlated with depression though. I suppose the truth is that we don't know for sure.

[Edited 2014-04-20 16:02:26]
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 117):
How come that aviation is so strange? How come that drives do not commit suicide by crashing their trains or buses but pilots do so by crashing their planes? I highly suspect that there are good reasons for suspecting that the conclusion: the pilot committed suicide by crashing his (no examples of female pilots as far as I know) plane actually has very little to do with the pilot.....

I really have no idea as to what you are rambling on about...one is only left to conclude that you are of the opinion that previous a/c accidents via suicide were in fact something else, and that the 'incriminating' evidence was trumped up and falsified. Or do expound (cringe)?

I stand corrected about Denmark, my apologies.

And if EVERYTHING in life had a precedent, well, predictability would be assured. I'm sorry, but this is just not the case (perhaps shocking to you). So please stop with the 'challenge' that you continue to put forward. It is strikingly naive, and speaks clearly to the myopia and distortion you suffer from.

And please stop assailing my professionalism (or lack of, either way). I'm an aviation fan, a curious human being (particularly in regard to MH370), a psychiatrist, a father etc...one thing I am not is anything Boeing. So now those of who believe in the 'foul play' scenari are all Boeing cronies...really??

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 118):
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but depression and anxiety are correlated with high intelligence. The training necessary to fly an airliner requires greater-than-average intelligence. Statistically speaking, you'd expect to see a higher rate of depressed pilots than depressed bus drivers.

Lizzie says no, but there have been several large sample studies that have found a 'statistically significant' correlation between Intelligent Quotient scores and Major Depressive Disorder (specifically). Don't know about episodic depression and acute anxiety disorder.
 
markak
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:14 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:11 pm

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 116):

And here is a list of specific info that would be nice to verify about the SATCOM equipment on MH370

*was it a high gainor low gain system

*which manufacterer was the HPA , SDU and RFU

This is needed to determine the method of Doppler correction..

Was it...

* the signals method... Using the measured Doppler offset on the signal Rx by the AES to offset it's Tx signal

Or

* the NAV data method....using the ARINC 429 data re location and speed to calculate the required Doppler compensation.

These are some basic "facts" that need verify in order to understand the BFO data.


Mark
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting MarkAK (Reply 125):
And here is a list of specific info that would be nice to verify about the SATCOM equipment on MH370

I cannot agree more!
I have been after that info for weeks, just as you have and for good reasons.
 
dvautier
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:28 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:49 pm

Boeing knows everything about that plane. The onboard SATCOM system is totally documented, what it was, how it works, frequencies, gain, specs, manufacturer. I’m not sure if Boeing can release the information to just anybody but it would be a good place to start of we really want to analyze those last three pings.
 
nupogodi
Posts: 933
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:58 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:19 am

Well not Boeing but most likely Honeywell in this case, who would share everything with Boeing, but yeah. That's sort of the problem, they have all the deets and we don't. Which is frustrating when trying to armchair-investigate.  
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
User avatar
fotoflyer71
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 6:22 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:56 am

Does anyone know whether we can expect to see preliminary investigation reports any time soon (like the BEA produced for AF447)?
Try to learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting fotoflyer71 (Reply 129):
Does anyone know whether we can expect to see preliminary investigation reports any time soon (like the BEA produced for AF447)?

They haven't even found the plane yet! At least with AF447 they pretty much spotted wreckage / debris the next day and had ships on site within days collecting debris.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:48 am

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 20):

In early discussions, I recall reading that 9M-MRO had no SATPHONE capability.
 
CO953
Posts: 515
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:05 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:56 am

Well after 56 threads, it looks like if the submersible comes up empty in the second half of the search pattern, the longest-running topic in a-net history (correct me if mistaken) is finally slowing to a halt.

Prayers for the 239 souls and their families, and hopes that sooner, rather than later, they will have an answer, and an end to their painful limbo.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:57 am

I always thought that the extra pings meant that the satellite had to be re-acquired, but it doesn't tell you why.

A turn is just the most likely reason.

A power reset would also cause it?
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting abba (Reply 109):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 106):
AF447 redux, redux, redux .....

See this is an entirely different matter.

Of course it's a different accident. But you're missing the point. Just as you assert that

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
I am sure that Boeing and the Malayian government would be happy to use the pilot as a scapegoat. It by far the cheapest solution to most parties involved. The pilot committed suicide. Save the money. Save the day.

posters on the AF447 threads asserted that Airbus and AF did not want AF447 to be "solved", because it would be cheaper for them. Didn't happen.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
User avatar
7BOEING7
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:28 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 133):
In early discussions, I recall reading that 9M-MRO had no SATPHONE capability.

We may be talking apples and oranges. Before SAT phone calls were available in the passenger cabin earlier model airplanes had SAT phone capability in the cockpit. So when it is said MH370 had no SAT phone capability are we talking about the cabin or the cockpit. If there was no cabin SAT there may have been cockpit SAT.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:52 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 137):

Where is this located in the cockpit? Or where is the panel for it located in the cockpit? Or would be if it were installed?
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:53 am

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 137):
If there was no cabin SAT there may have been cockpit SAT.

Did 777 come off the assembly line with a default low gain satcom antenna in the late 90's?
 
65mustang
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:54 am

Quoting LTC8K6,reply:


In early discussions, I recall reading that 9M-MRO had no SATPHONE capability.


I am not certain, but i think that discussion was about the capability of passengers using cell phones through Satcom with a service such as OnAir. I was referring to what is described on page 19 of the Communications systems summay

"The SATCOM system provides both data and voice communications. The system is managed by the satellite data unit. Flight deck voice calls are controlled using the CDUs and audio control panels.
The SATCOM control pages are displayed by selecting SAT on the CDU menu page. Directories of airline-defined numbers are line-selectable or numbers may be manually entered if function is enabled by the operator.
Incoming SATCOM calls are annunciated by a SELCAL chime and illumination of a CALL light on the audio control panel. Pressing the respective transmitter select switch connects the call to the pilot headset/hand mic.
SATCOM calls are terminated when the CALL light extinguishes (ground party hang-up or pilot ends call)."

With each hourly Satcom ping, would there be a message appearing on the multifunction display saying "SATCOM LINK ESTABLISHED" thereby notifying anyone in the flight deck that a link was active?
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1534
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 140):

Perhaps they did try to make a SATCOM call and this is why they think the disappearance is deliberate?

They just haven't released the info.

The pings indicate the antenna system was working fine.

Or perhaps voice SATCOM calls are an expensive option, and MH didn't pay for the service?

[Edited 2014-04-20 22:03:57]
 
EricR
Posts: 1226
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:15 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:08 am

Unconfirmed reports show a possible sighting of MH370.


http://mobile.twitter.com/flyingwith...?idx=19&tid=445399815342419968
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 124):
I really have no idea as to what you are rambling on about...one is only left to conclude that you are of the opinion that previous a/c accidents via suicide were in fact something else, and that the 'incriminating' evidence was trumped up and falsified. Or do expound (cringe)?

How many cases explained by pilot suicide do we have - they have been listed above somewhere. I believe it was 5 - 6. That is certainly a surprisingly high percentage of all crashes. In particular as we can find nothing similar in other lines of business. Add to this that there seems to be this systematic pattern about most of them - if not all - that they involve pilots of a cultural background different from the investigators and pilots from airlines and countries that do not have the resources to pay for a huge and expensive investigation. In particular if the crash took place in such a way that the wreckage has to be picked up from the deep ocean.

Now, if there were a crash, an explanation must be given. And I believe that it is not - politically - possible to say that we cannot find the reason - or we cannot afford to do so. So therefore: the pilot did it.

Take a look at this and ask yourself the question: how many countries have the resources and the funds to do this?

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 136):
posters on the AF447 threads asserted that Airbus and AF did not want AF447 to be "solved", because it would be cheaper for them. Didn't happen

Right as there were someone able and willing to carry such an investigation through and fund it. This seems not to be the case in a number of the cases where pilot suicide was claimed as the reason. In these cases an AF447 - not to mention a TWA800 - investigation seems very much out of question.

http://ainonline.com/aviation-news/a...r-putting-conspiracy-theories-rest

[Edited 2014-04-20 23:17:37]
 
FlyboyOz
Posts: 1762
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2000 10:05 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:38 am

I have just got a forwarded email about missing flight in Chinese language. Not sure any chinese users talked about it here.

I have looked at the map and where the plane disappeared. That email mentioned that it actually flew "around" Indonesia and/or malaysia airspace for five hours and then fly to Indian Ocean (? -not sure it's confirmed or not).
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
FLY744
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:36 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:25 am

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 140):
With each hourly Satcom ping, would there be a message appearing on the multifunction display saying "SATCOM LINK ESTABLISHED" thereby notifying anyone in the flight deck that a link was active?

Boeing's quiet dark flight philosophy means that only changes of state are annunciated. In the case of the hourly satcom ping there is no change of state, so no annunciation. Should the satcom link fail, then either or both SATVOICE LOST, DATALINK LOST messages would be displayed on the upper MFD as EICAS advisory messages. When the satcom link is reestablished, the EICAS messages SATVOICE AVAIL and/or DATALINK AVAIL would be displayed. In normal operations many hours can go by with no messags being displayed at all.

Satellite voice will only be available if a high gain satcom system is installed. Datalink can use, but does not requiire a high gain system. Datalink only will be available if only a low gain satcom system is installed. FYI for Inmarsat Classic Aero low gain datalink operates at 600 bps and the high gain data.link operates at up tp 10.5 Kbps.

9M-MRO appears to have a high gain system installed with a conformal high gain antenna. This antenna is still electronically steered phased array but consists of 2 flat plate antennae mounted on the fuselage above the number 3 doors. See the picture at (it shows up better on the large picture format):
https://www.airliners.net/photo/Malay...d=6b85ad51cf681aeba60d9cdf7797b80c
The low gain satcom antenna is mounted above on the fuselage centreline. It is the stubby blade with a black leading edge.

What I don't know of course is whether the satcom High Power Amplifier, LNA diplexer and the Beam Steering Units were installed to make the high gain system operative.
Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9526
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:02 am

Quoting abba (Reply 109):
You could start by now... We have already over 100 post on this treat.

1. I have a life.
2. I am simply not that concerned about it here.
3. I think you are being a bit gratuitous in your assessments of these new posters.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30050
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:08 am

Whats the update on the underwater search....no news nowadays......very mysterious.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:13 am

Quoting abba (Reply 143):
posters on the AF447 threads asserted that Airbus and AF did not want AF447 to be "solved", because it would be cheaper for them. Didn't happen
Right as there were someone able and willing to carry such an investigation through and fund it.

You're still missing Kaiarahi's point. For two years there were many on this site saying the search for AF447 was all smoke and mirrors because the French did not want to find the aircraft. The same people continued to assure us that the aircraft was brought down by a "seriously flawed" control system or a failed vertical stabiliser and that Airbus and the French government didn't want the world to know. Even after the final report was released there were many who still insisted it was a cover-up. There are people who seem to be blessed with the ability to determine the cause of an aircraft accident without being hindered by technical details.

As far as the ability of Malaysia to retain overall responsibility for the investigation, why is it so difficult to understand that there would be involvement of the NTSB, AAIB, Boeing, RR and others (BEA?)? If the Malaysians were to attempt a cover-up the US FAA and UK CAA, among others, would know about it. Until an official report is released it's a bit premature to make any such accusations.
 
User avatar
Finn350
Posts: 1595
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting hawk21m (Reply 147):
Whats the update on the underwater search....no news nowadays......very mysterious.
Quote:
Media Release
21 April 2014—am

Up to 10 military aircraft and 11 ships will assist in today's search for missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370.

Today the Australian Maritime Safety Authority has planned a visual search area totaling approximately 49,491 square kilometres. The centre of the search area lies approximately 1741 kilometres north west of Perth.

This morning, Bluefin-21 AUV completed mission eight in the underwater search area. Bluefin-21 has searched approximately two thirds of the focused underwater search area to date. No contacts of interest have been found to date.

The focused underwater search area is defined as a circle of 10km radius around the second Towed Pinger Locator detection which occurred on 8 April.

Bluefin-21 AUV's ninth mission will commence later this morning.

The weather forecast for today has conditions deteriorating, particularly in the north of the search area, as Tropical Cyclone Jack continues its track southwards. Wide spread showers are developing with isolated thunderstorms to the north and east south-easterly winds.

Source: http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/releases/2014/april/mr030.aspx

As I understand it, they are searching 10 km radius of the acoustic detection #2.

http://www.jacc.gov.au/media/releases/2014/april/mr_014-2.jpg

I don't know how far the pinger could be heard, but if it is not found in the 10 km circle, it doesn't sound too good. On the other hand, what could the acoustic sounds they recorded be other than the MH370 black boxes?
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:28 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 142):

This guy was completely discredited in about thread #5. He just makes stuff up.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting abba (Reply 102):
By the way - have you noticed that we have got quite a few new members? Strangely enough: all have joined A-net onthe very date or only shortly after the MH370 disappearance. Many of them has the very same style of writing. Some of them no doubt are lying about the professional background. All supporting the very same view.

Wonder what you get paid as a member of the Boeing damage control team which no doubt will be active on a forum like this and even being so with the consent of the Malaysian government.

Okay, okay, you caught me out... I updated my occupation accordingly!         

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 137):
So when it is said MH370 had no SAT phone capability are we talking about the cabin or the cockpit. If there was no cabin SAT there may have been cockpit SAT.
Quoting 65mustang (Reply 140):

I am not certain, but i think that discussion was about the capability of passengers using cell phones through Satcom with a service such as OnAir.
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 141):
Or perhaps voice SATCOM calls are an expensive option, and MH didn't pay for the service?

I flew on 9M-MRG a few years ago. It had 'AeroMobile' technology installed which allows any pax with a mobile phone to use their own phone to make calls etc. I made a call between KUL & HKG at FLT350 and was charged a fair bit from memory. Apparently, based on what we learned in earlier threads, MRG was the trial aircraft and the AeroMobile service was not installed on other MH 772s as it was not worth it (this is what others said but all I know is that MRG had it for a while). Again, others have said MRO did not have AeroMobile. All I'm saying is that MH experimented with AeroMobile technology so who knows how far they really took it or what MRO was really capable of in regards to pax trying to use their mobile phones. There is a pic in my profile that I took whilst on 9M-MRG - it is the info card about the service that was in every seat pocket.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 146):
3. I think you are being a bit gratuitous in your assessments of these new posters.

I agree. The MH370 incident is what finally got me to join after lurking for many years - I could just sense that this was going to be big... However, it made me laugh to read the comment about all the 'Damage Control' employees of Boeing and MAS that are apparently in here...  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:17 am

Quoting David L (Reply 148):
As far as the ability of Malaysia to retain overall responsibility for the investigation, why is it so difficult to understand that there would be involvement of the NTSB, AAIB, Boeing, RR and others (BEA?)?

Oh - no doubt NTSB, AAIB, RR and many others can no doubt be involved. But do you believe that all that help and involvement will be free? And who do you think will foot the bill for all this expensive investigation?

I am not saying that the mystery of MH370 will never be solved. If they do find the black boxes and if they will provide a full answer then I even believe that the mystery will be solved eventually. However, if it proves no be necessary to get all the bits and pieces up from the deep ocean and put most of the plane together in order to find what on MH370 might be the equivalent of the wire igniting the explosion on the TWA800 center fuel tank I start to doubt because:

- Looking back into past history of suggested pilot suicides I find a rather obvious pattern that MH370 could potentially fall into. I doubt that it will be an major priority for the Malaysian government or MAS to spend the funds needed to make such an effort. Then it will be up to the partners you mention if they will work for free or for highly reduced fees. Will they find this investigation (the 772 is now out of production) so important that they will do that?

- Even the Malaysian government has been hinting at a pilot suicide or some other criminal act for a while. I good guess is that the are preparing the public for such a conclusion in relation to a strict economic priority.

Quoting David L (Reply 148):
If the Malaysians were to attempt a cover-up the US FAA and UK CAA, among others, would know about it. Until an official report is released it's a bit premature to make any such accusations.


I do not believe that governments are attempting to cover known facts up in this context. Rather I believe that some governments in this world are in a position where they cannot - or don't want to prioritize (remember that the alternative use for the funds might be spend on education and health care) - bringing the facts to the table. It might well be very, very, very expensive!
 
CBRboy
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:03 pm

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:35 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 149):
I don't know how far the pinger could be heard, but if it is not found in the 10 km circle, it doesn't sound too good

Presumably the second ping detection was chosen as a starting point because it was in the middle. If nothing is found within a 10 km radius, it would be logical to move on to a search around the other points/lines of detection. Perhaps detection no. 1, the most sustained, might be next?
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: MH370 Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 56

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 124):
Lizzie says no, but there have been several large sample studies that have found a 'statistically significant' correlation between Intelligent Quotient scores and Major Depressive Disorder (specifically). Don't know about episodic depression and acute anxiety disorder.

I didn't say "no" - I said I didn't know of any study that found this. If you do, I'd be interested to see what it was. Diagnostic rates often correlate with access to medical care, but diagnostic rate is not the same as prevalence.

In any case, these sorts of correlations, where found, are usually extremely small effect sizes, and therefore only found in extremely large samples. It makes no sense to predict an individual's behaviour on the basis of surmised IQ. Suicidal depression, sadly, is found in most groups of people.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos