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JMGRIFFIN
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Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:54 pm

I've been researching Fifth Freedom routes and have complied a list of longest flights in the world. Please let me know if there are any I've missed so I can update the list. Hope someone finds it interesting!

---------------------------------------------------------------

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/alltop15fifthfreedomroutes.jpg

This installment joins the others I’ve compiled including:

- Top 7: Longest domestic US flights: http://weekendblitz.com/top-7-longest-domestic-us-flights/
- Top 10: Longest Domestic Flights in the World: http://weekendblitz.com/top-10-longest-domestic-flights-in-the-world/
- Top 10: World’s longest non-stop flights: http://weekendblitz.com/top-10-worlds-longest-non-stop-flights/
- Top 15 Longest Fifth Freedom Flights in the World: http://weekendblitz.com/top-12-longest-non-stop-delta-flights-world/

Some interesting things to watch out for:


- Boeing 777-300ER is a very popular choice for these long routes, making an appearance on the list 10 times.
- It’s interesting that some routes (#7 and #10) were tied. This means that 3 governments had to approve the route twice and were OK with even more competition to their national carriers.
- Singapore Airlines makes the list 5 times, proving just how difficult it is to reach Singapore from the Western Hemisphere.

1. The longest 5th Freedom flight currently operated in the world is New York-JFK to Osaka-KIX on China Airlines. The flight is scheduled to take 14 hrs 20 mins on a Boeing 747-400 flying westward over the Pacific and covers 6,946 miles (11,178 km). From Osaka, CI Flight #19 (CAL19) continues onward to Taipei, Taiwan-TPE. The total journey from JFK to Taipei-TPE takes 18 hr 40 mins.



2. Singapore Airlines‘ San Franciso-SFO to Hong Kong-HKG flight comes in at a close second with 6,927 miles (11,148 km) and is technically scheduled to take appx the exact same time as #1: 14 hr 20 mins. SQ #1 (SIA1) is flown on a Boeing 777-300ER and from HKG continues onward to Singapore-SIN for a total journey time of 19 hr 30 mins.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sfo-hkg-sin.jpg

3. This seems to be one of the more obscure or unusual routes: São Paulo-GRU to Los Angeles-LAX flown by Korean Air. Operated on a Boeing 777-300ER, KE Flight #62 (KAL62) makes the 6,156 mile (9,907 km) journey in 12 hr 30 mins. From Los Angeles-LAX, the flight continues onward to Korean Air’s hub in Seoul-ICN. Including the 2 hr 00 min stop at LAX, the entire journey from São Paulo-GRU to Seoul-ICN takes a crazy 27 hr 40 mins!

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/gru-lax-icn-korean-air-kal-62-ke-62.jpg

4. Thai Airways’ one-and-only U.S. destination is Los Angeles-LAX, with a flight going to Seoul-ICN. TG Flight #693 (THA693) covers a distance of 5,994 miles (9,646 km) in 12 hr 35 mins on Thai’s Boeing 777-200. Naturally, the flight continues onward to Bangkok-BKK with a total journey time of 19 hr 50 mins.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/lax-icn-bkk-tha693-tg693.jpg

5. Breaking up the streak of US cities is EVA Air‘s route from Bangkok-BKK to London-LHR, coming in at 5,958 miles (9,588 km). The 5th longest Fifth Freedom flight in the world takes 12 hr 25 mins on a Boeing 777-300ER. BR Flight #67 (EVA67) originates at the EVA Air hub in Taipei-TPE for a total flight time of 17 hr 15 mins from TPE to LHR, with the 1 hr 15 min stop in BKK.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tpe-bkk-lhr-eva67-br67.jpg

6. Singapore Airlines Flight# SQ 62 (SIA62) carries passengers from Moscow-DME to Houston-IAH in 12 hr 15 mins. The 5,936 mile (9,553 km) flight is operated on a Boeing 777-300ER. The flight originates in Singapore-SIN and total flying time from Singapore-SIN to Houston-IAH, including the 1 hr 30 min stop in Moscow, takes right at a full day of your life: 24 hr 25 mins.



7. The Fifth Freedom flight between Bangkok-BKK and Amsterdam-AMS is a tie between China Airlines and EVA Air, both headquartered in Taiwan. At 12 hr 25 mins, technically the China Airlines route is “longer” but only because they’re slower, so not really a win there. EVA Air flies the 5,727 mile (9,217 km) route in 11 hr 55 mins on a Boeing 777-300ER (Flight# BR 75 or EVA75). China Airlines Flight # CI 65 (CAL65) uses a A340-300, which adds about half an hour. Both flights originate in Taipei-TPE.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tpe-bkk-ams-br75-eva75-ci65-cal65.jpg

8. Next up is a flight from Paris-CDG to Los Angeles-LAX, covering a distance of 5,670 miles (9,125 km) in 12 hr 00 mins. The flight, TN Flight #7 or THT7, is operated by Air Tahiti Nui and flown on an Airbus A340-300. After a brief 1 hr 49 min stop at LAX, the Airbus continues onward to Papeete-PPT for a total travel time of 22 hr 25 mins. I’m sure it’s well worth the trip!

Cool fact: I’ve added the orange route on the map to show what a non-stop flight from Paris-CDG to Papeete-PPT would look like. Direct distance = 9,765 miles, distance with a stop at LAX = 9,765–it doesn’t get more perfectly on the way than that!

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/cdg-lax-ppt-tht7-tn7.jpg

9. Up for a 3rd time, Singapore Airlines‘ flight from San Francisco-SFO to Seoul-ICN has a scheduled flying time of 12 hr 25 mins and a distance of 5,658 miles (9,106 km). A Boeing 777-300ER is used for flight SQ #15 (SIA15) and takes a total of 19 hr 40 mins from SFO to Singapore-SIN.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sfo-icn-sin-sia15-sq15.jpg

10. Tied for 10th place, we have Malaysian Airlines and Singapore Airlines from Los Angeles-LAX to Tokyo-NRT. Interestingly, both flights have identical scheduled flight times of 11 hr 30 mins and cover a distanced of 5,451 miles (8,773 km). Singapore’s flight SQ #11 (SIA11) is flown on an Airbus A380 whereas Malaysian’s flight MH #93 (MAS93) uses a Boeing 777-200. MH #93 continues onward to Kuala Lumpur-KUL for a total travel time of 20 hr 45 mins. SQ #11 makes it from LAX to Singapore-SIN in a total of 20 hr 15 mins.

Cool fact: This is another route with a stop that is perfectly on the main flight path. Total distance LAX-KUL direct = 8,808 miles vs 8,808 miles with a stop at NRT.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/lax-nrt-kul-mh93-mas93-malaysiaairlines.jpg

11. Making it’s 5th (and final) appearance in this top list is Singapore Airline’s 5,432 miles (8,742 km) flight from Barcelona-BCN to São Paulo-GRU. SQ #68 (SIA68) uses a Boeing 777-300ER on the 11 hr 10 min flight. This is a painfully long flight time as well: Singapore-SIN to São Paulo-GRU with a 1 hr 20 min stop in Barcelona takes a whopping 26 hours!

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sin-bcn-gru-sq68-sia68.jpg

12. EVA Air flies a route from Bangkok-BKK to Vienna-VIE on an Airbus A330-200. The trip takes 11 hr 10 min, covering a distance of 5,256 miles (8,459 km). To fly the entire Taipei-TPE–>Bangkok-BKK–>Vienna-VIE flight takes 16 hr 00 mins– not too bad. Interestingly, this is far from the quickest option if going from Taipei to Vienna: China Airlines has a 12 hr 30 min non-stop flight; Air China and Korean Air can also get you there in under 16 hrs.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/tpe-bkk-vie.jpg

13. This is another that seems more exotic to me: Air China’s 5,192 miles (8,356 km) flight from Madrid-MAD to São Paulo-GRU. The 11 hr 10 min route (CA #907 or CCA907) is aboard an Airbus A330. Originating in Beijing-PEK, the total flight time to São Paulo-GRU via a 2 hr 10 min stop in Madrid-MAD is 25 hr 40 mins.

Interesting fact: This is a highly competitive route. There are already 4 non-stop flights, making the Air China route the 5th to join the party.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/gru-mad-pek-ca907-cca907.jpg

14. Despite once being a large US World War II base in the Pacific, the only carrier with direct flights from the Cook Islands to the US is New Zealand-based Air New Zealand. The route from Los Angeles-LAX to Rarotonga-RAR takes 10 hr 00 min, covering a distance of 4,670 miles (7,516 km) on a Boeing 767-300. This route isn’t just an operational stop though, Air New Zealand has 2x non-stop flights daily from LAX to Auckland-AKL that take 13 hr 00 mins total, whereas the LAX to Rarotonga-RAR to Auckland-AKL flight takes 15 hr 45 mins.



15. Finally, at #15, we have our first Emirates Fifth Freedom flight from Sydney-SYD to Bangkok-BKK on an Boeing 777-300ER. The flight duration is 9 hr 25 mins over 4,662 miles (7,503 km). Emirates Flight EK #419 (UAE419) is actually a series of Fifth Freedom Flights: Christchurch-CHC –> Sydney-SYD, Sydney-SYD –> Bangkok-BKK and then Bangkok-BKK –> Dubai-DXB. If you ever flew this full, lengthy route, you’d be looking at a total travel time of 21 hr 50 mins.

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/chc-syd-bkk-dxb-ek149-uae419.jpg
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:02 pm

Interesting post

What about ANZ LAX / LHR ?

Would have thought it was up near the top 10?
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
Direct distance = 9,765 miles, distance with a stop at LAX = 9,765–it doesn’t get more perfectly on the way than that!

NRT-JFK-GRU is only 1 mile off and it's 11,489 miles. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=nrt-jfk-gru-nrt

PHL instead of JFK, and it would be right on the money. Alas, that route doesn't exist. http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=nrt-phl-gru-nrt
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jetblue1965
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:26 pm

I think MH's NRT-LAX tag is going away soon ?

Very curious that, by FAR, these 5th-freedom tags come from *A members.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 1):
What about ANZ LAX / LHR ?

That one clocks in at 5456mi, so that should've been #10.

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
5. Breaking up the streak of US cities is EVA Air‘s route from Bangkok-BKK to London-LHR, coming in at 5,958 miles (9,588 km). The 5th longest Fifth Freedom flight in the world takes 12 hr 25 mins on a Boeing 777-300ER. BR Flight #67 (EVA67) originates at the EVA Air hub in Taipei-TPE for a total flight time of 17 hr 15 mins from TPE to LHR, with the 1 hr 15 min stop in BKK.

BR also does TPE-BKK-AMS (5878mi tag) and TPE-BKK-VIE (5583mi tag).
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:36 pm

I wonder how much they lose collectively annually on a segment basis? I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to $100MM.
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Laxjaydub
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:53 pm

Is the Air Tahiti Nui flight from LAX-CDG really a 5th Freedom flight? Tahiti is a French Territory, so this flight is technically just a France - US - France flight. You can look at the Air France flight that goes the opposite way the same way.
 
olympic472
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:04 pm

Graphics and narratives are superb. Very nice post.
Thank you.
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travelin man
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting laxjaydub (Reply 5):

Is the Air Tahiti Nui flight from LAX-CDG really a 5th Freedom flight? Tahiti is a French Territory, so this flight is technically just a France - US - France flight. You can look at the Air France flight that goes the opposite way the same way.

Yeah I was going to say this as well. Since French Polynesia is part of "France", I don't think TN's LAX-CDG route falls under 5th freedom (nor does AF's LAX-PPT route).

But I could be wrong.

Cool info and maps nonetheless!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The W

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:15 pm

Fantastic! Thank you so much. I love a bit of fifth freedom! Bring back the old days of Qantas LHR-BAH, Pan Am BKK-SYD, MEA ORY-JFK, Biman BRU-JFK, Air-India LHR-JFK and many more.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):

I wonder how much they lose collectively annually on a segment basis? I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to $100MM.

I am sure all of these make big money. None of these airlines are in the business of losing money. Well I don't know about Air Tahiti Nui. But Singapore, Koreanair, Eva Air are NOT in the business of running loss-making routes. Just the local traffic on the fifth freedom sector would be worth a mint. San Fran to Seoul, Sydney to Bangkok, New York to Osaka, hello $$$$. Add in the pax flying all the way through from beginning to end and you're making big money.

Quoting laxjaydub (Reply 5):
Is the Air Tahiti Nui flight from LAX-CDG really a 5th Freedom flight? Tahiti is a French Territory,

Good catch! I'm glad this route is on the list, a Tahitian airline flying from Paris to LA is an exotic route and it's appearance here is a nice reminder to go and fly it, but technically I suppose the full Paris-to-Tahiti run is a domestic flight.

Quoting olympic472 (Reply 6):
Graphics and narratives are superb. Very nice post.

Agreed. Thanks again!

[Edited 2014-04-21 09:43:09]
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timpdx
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:33 pm

Cool thanks for posting.

on this list:
I have done LA-Rarotonga on New Zealand and the Malaysian LAX, the stop then was TPE now it NRT.

The MH flights to LAX stop April 30th. MH has served LAX since the mid-80's.
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qf2220
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:36 pm

Great work, thanks for the efforts!

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
5. Breaking up the streak of US cities is EVA Air‘s route from Bangkok-BKK to London-LHR
Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
7. The Fifth Freedom flight between Bangkok-BKK and Amsterdam-AMS is a tie between China Airlines and EVA Air
Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
12. EVA Air flies a route from Bangkok-BKK to Vienna-VIE on an Airbus A330-200.

What strikes me about these is - Why? - EVA could quite easily fly to LHR, AMS and VIE from TPE itself no? Perhaps it is the $$ as per the below, but is there anything else that comes into play?

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):

I wonder how much they lose collectively annually on a segment basis? I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to $100MM.

I am sure all of these make big money. None of these airlines are in the business of losing money. Well I don't know about Air Tahiti Nui. But Singapore, Koreanair, Eva Air are in the business of running loss-making routes. Just the local traffic on the fifth freedom sector would be worth a mint. San Fran to Seoul, Sydney to Bangkok, New York to Osaka, hello $$$$. Add in the pax flying all the way through from beginning to end and you're making big money.

Im not sure how much we can and cant say for certain about profitability, though, given most of these cannot be done as a non stop, id say they would be making something out of it (though prestige is probably a factor in some routes).
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 10):
What strikes me about these is - Why? - EVA could quite easily fly to LHR, AMS and VIE from TPE itself no? Perhaps it is the $$ as per the below, but is there anything else that comes into play?

Legacy geography. Had to avoid Mainland Chinese airspace only until very recently. But as of today, there's no reason not to do them nonstop.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I wonder how much they lose collectively annually on a segment basis? I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to $100MM.

Some of these are unserved or under-served, so it's not like it's a huge loss leader. KE had LAX-GRU for the longest time until AA joined them recently. SQ still owns BCN-GRU. RAR-LAX and KIX-JFK are monopolies.

If I have to guess which of the above isn't doing so hot, I'd venture to say TG's ICN-LAX (owing to the loyalty commanded by KE+OZ).
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting laxjaydub (Reply 5):
Is the Air Tahiti Nui flight from LAX-CDG really a 5th Freedom flight? Tahiti is a French Territory, so this flight is technically just a France - US - France flight. You can look at the Air France flight that goes the opposite way the same way.

I agree. LAX-CDG for TN is not 5th freedom.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:23 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
I agree. LAX-CDG for TN is not 5th freedom.

I treat it as 5th freedom because AA is allowed is sell you CDG-JFK-LAX-PPT on a mixture of AA and TN metal. If LAX-PPT is not 5th, then CDG-PPT would be domestic, then AA selling the ticket would be considered cabotage ?
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 13):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
I agree. LAX-CDG for TN is not 5th freedom.

I treat it as 5th freedom because AA is allowed is sell you CDG-JFK-LAX-PPT on a mixture of AA and TN metal. If LAX-PPT is not 5th, then CDG-PPT would be domestic, then AA selling the ticket would be considered cabotage ?

LAX-CDG still isn't 5th freedom for TN. If AA operated their own metal all the way CDG-LAX-PPT I doubt they'd be permitted to sell it except as two separate tickets.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
LAX-CDG still isn't 5th freedom for TN. If AA operated their own metal all the way CDG-LAX-PPT I doubt they'd be permitted to sell it except as two separate tickets.

Even including code-share, I didn't know / don't think cabotage is allowed.

Because here it is essentially saying a France-AA-USA-TN-France ticket can be sold. Even if ticketing comes out to be multiple tickets, they're still selling you a flight connection from a single transaction.
 
ubeema
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:58 pm

Great job JMGRIFFIN.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8):
I am sure all of these make big money. None of these airlines are in the business of losing money. Well I don't know about Air Tahiti Nui. But Singapore, Koreanair, Eva Air are NOT in the business of running loss-making routes.

We know Singapore tried for a long time to operate SIN-EWR and SIN-LAX non-stop for a while until they cancelled it last year! Profitability was most likely they issue they keep a blind eye on for too long.
 
dmsolovyev
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:30 pm

What a superb post, thank you   

I'm curious about crew rotation on long-haul routes such as GRU - LAX - ICN or SIN - DME - IAH. After stopover, does the arriving crew stay at hotel in Los-Angeles and Moscow respectively, or they fly to the final destination as passengers?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting dmsolovyev (Reply 17):
I'm curious about crew rotation on long-haul routes such as GRU - LAX - ICN or SIN - DME - IAH. After stopover, does the arriving crew stay at hotel in Los-Angeles and Moscow respectively, or they fly to the final destination as passengers?

Can't speak for others, but for CI's TPE-KIX-JFK, they layover at KIX at least 90% of the time and dead-head to the final destination less than 10% of the time.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:47 pm

If you are using statute miles , I would have thought NZ's daily LHR-LAX flight at 5456 should be number ten on the list. Thanks for posting, there are some interesting ones there.
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Quoting QF2220 (Reply 10):
What strikes me about these is - Why? - EVA could quite easily fly to LHR, AMS and VIE from TPE itself no? Perhaps it is the $$ as per the below, but is there anything else that comes into play?

Legacy geography. Had to avoid Mainland Chinese airspace only until very recently. But as of today, there's no reason not to do them nonstop.

Thanks!
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:29 pm

As others have said, and worth repeating, a very good post indeed. Interesting information.  
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ghajdufi
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:53 pm

Excellent post, well done. Can't wait to check out the rest of your articles.
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trex8
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 10):
What strikes me about these is - Why? - EVA could quite easily fly to LHR, AMS and VIE from TPE itself no? Perhaps it is the $$ as per the below, but is there anything else that comes into play?

The Taiwan-UK/France/Netherlands etc ASA require stops for certain carriers and not others eg BR TPE-BKK--LHR can be one stop but not CIs (which is why CI stopped as it wasn't economical, BKK stops make money for both carriers but few other places do).
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
Some of these are unserved or under-served, so it's not like it's a huge loss leader

Almost all for a reason...

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
KE had LAX-GRU for the longest time until AA joined them recently. SQ still owns BCN-GRU. RAR-LAX and KIX-JFK are monopolies.

I have no doubt that LAXGRU, LAXICN (TG), JFKKIX, BR BKK anywhere westbound, EK's BKKSYD, and NRTLAX (MH) are all pretty terrible. LAXRAR and LAXCDG I think are government supported, and SQ might be able to squeak out a decent return as it tends to command a high fare premium, although I bet they've seen a lot of erosion on their Transpacific tags. BCN/MADGRU on SQ/CA seem to have gotten off to a slow start but I haven't seen much data.
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UALWN
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):
BCN/MADGRU on SQ/CA seem to have gotten off to a slow start but I haven't seen much data.

Well, BCN-GRU on SQ started over 3 years ago.
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Viscount724
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
KE had LAX-GRU for the longest time until AA joined them recently.

KE started the LAX-GRU tag-on in June 2008.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 24):

I have no doubt that LAXGRU, LAXICN (TG), JFKKIX, BR BKK anywhere westbound, EK's BKKSYD, and NRTLAX (MH) are all pretty terrible.

So why is EK staying on the route? Between EK and QF there's sufficient nonstop capacity between DXB and SYD.

MH is already stopping there's. TG is definitely running it as a loss leader (they've tried BKK-ICN-LAX for a while but probably bled even more)

KE's LAX-GRU has been upgraded from 77E to 77W. That doesn't look "pretty terrible" to me ?

CI's JFK-KIX is a wild card because it's flown by 744 but only 3x weekly (there's your "capacity discipline"). Once their 77W and 359 come online, it should improve a lot. It's a lot better than the previous TPE-ANC-JFK arrangement where there's no traffic rights on the tag.
 
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Miami
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:52 pm

FYI: Malaysia doesn't fly the A380 to LAX..
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 25):
Well, BCN-GRU on SQ started over 3 years ago.

They've changed around the departure time and days of operation at least once or twice, plus IB skidaddled out of there pretty quickly which makes me doubt the strength of the local market. But I haven't seen any LF or fare data either so maybe it does fine.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):
So why is EK staying on the route? Between EK and QF there's sufficient nonstop capacity between DXB and SYD.

l
I think it stays in those tags plus the trans Tasman tags primarily because it has the plane time; the aircraft would otherwise sit in BKK/SYD/MEL/etc. But I don't see how if TG/QF are having trouble on the route with all their respective flow, how is EK doing any better when it's essentially 100% local.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):
KE's LAX-GRU has been upgraded from 77E to 77W. That doesn't look "pretty terrible" to me ?

It's 60% full with terrible times, and the fares in the market at prime times are pretty bad. There's just no way it's making money on a segment basis.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):
CI's JFK-KIX is a wild card because it's flown by 744 but only 3x weekly (there's your "capacity discipline"). Once their 77W and 359 come online, it should improve a lot. It's a lot better than the previous TPE-ANC-JFK arrangement where there's no traffic rights on the tag.

KIX is really low yield, and JL/NH are almost always more expensive to OSA than the nonstop from JFK on CI, by a good 50%. I have a hard time believing anyone is taking CI other than VFR and only if it's the cheapest, but it is running about 81% full so that's better than LAXGRU for sure.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:14 pm

Go back a couple of years and QF would have been on there with SIN-LHR, BKK-LHR (with BR) and HKG-LHR (as would have been NZ). Heck, where would SIN-FRA, SIN-CDG and BKK-FCO and AKL-LAX all have ranked?

[Edited 2014-04-21 15:15:07]

[Edited 2014-04-21 15:16:46]
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
But I haven't seen any LF or fare data either so maybe it does fine.

I have no information either, other than that I took it once and it was 100% full. My point was that you said that "it was off to a slow start," but it's not like it just started. It has been going on for over 3 years now. But it's true that SQ has played around repeatedly with the days and times of both BCN-GRU and BCN-SIN, so who knows.
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:40 pm

Thanks for that awesome post! Good to see the mighty 747-400 (ER) currently operating the longest non-stop flight in terms of distance...
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting dmsolovyev (Reply 17):
I'm curious about crew rotation on long-haul routes such as GRU - LAX - ICN or SIN - DME - IAH. After stopover, does the arriving crew stay at hotel in Los-Angeles and Moscow respectively, or they fly to the final destination as passengers?

If they flew to the final destination as passengers, you would have two crews at the destination and no-one to pick up the flight from the intermediate stop back to base. So no, in every case, the crew get off at the stop and the previous day's crew take their place and continue the flight. One exception would be where the fifth-freedom tag is a short sector, e.g. Ethiopian ADD-BKK-SIN-BKK-ADD, where the crew will operate ADD to BKK, nightstop, then the next day (assuming a daily flight, or a few days later if not) operate BKK-SIN-BKK, nightstop, BKK to ADD. This is commonly referred to as a "shuttle" by crew. BA do it on their tags, like the LHR-AUH-MCT route, the crew nightstop in AUH twice and not in MCT at all. There are a few in the Caribbean too, literally leaving their drinks on the bar in Nassau and taking a 767 or 777 to Grand Cayman and getting back three hours later. Nice!

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 30):
QF would have been on there with SIN-LHR...SIN-CDG

Qantas, as far as I know, only ever operated to Paris as a tag-on to Frankfurt, so SYD-SIN-FRA-CDG (oh and this illustrates the above point - the Qantas crew would have never seen Paris, cos FRA-CDG is so short, both legs would easily fall inside a duty day, so SYD-SIN nightstop, SIN-FRA nightstop, FRA-CDG-FRA nightstop, FRA-SIN nightstop, SIN-SYD home).
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JFKL1011
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:32 am

What about AC 092/093 YYZ-SCL-EZE? Approx 6,100 miles and 11.5 hours on a 763.
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
the only carrier with direct flights from the Cook Islands to the US is New Zealand-based Air New Zealand

The Cook Islands are a part of New Zealand, so that RAR-LAX isn't really a 5th freedom flight.

Quoting JFKL1011 (Reply 34):
What about AC 092/093 YYZ-SCL-EZE? Approx 6,100 miles and 11.5 hours on a 763.

The 5th freedom flight there is the SCL-EZE..
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:09 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 35):
The 5th freedom flight there is the SCL-EZE..

Ahhh....I was figuring for all segments. I shouldve realized.   
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:39 am

First off, thanks for all of the positive feedback and encouraging words! I'm glad everyone has enjoyed the post as much as they have!

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 1):

Thanks! Don't know why I didn't include that one, I had it on my list but just skipped over for some reason? LHR-LAX(-AKL) is now #9 on the list:

http://weekendblitz.com/top-15-longest-fifth-freedom-flights-world/

http://weekendblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/lhr-lax-akl.jpg

Quoting laxjaydub (Reply 5):

Good catch, I have downgraded this one to 7½ so as to keep it on the list but show that it doesn't really count. Thanks for pointing that out!
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:49 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 35):

Good point, but are the Cook Islands still a sovereign state, an independent country? Or are they entirely aligned with New Zealand? I'm not very familiar....
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
3. This seems to be one of the more obscure or unusual routes: São Paulo-GRU to Los Angeles-LAX flown by Korean Air. Operated on a Boeing 777-300ER, KE Flight #62 (KAL62) makes the 6,156 mile (9,907 km) journey in 12 hr 30 mins. From Los Angeles-LAX, the flight continues onward to Korean Air’s hub in Seoul-ICN. Including the 2 hr 00 min stop at LAX, the entire journey from São Paulo-GRU to Seoul-ICN takes a crazy 27 hr 40 mins!
Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Thread starter):
13. This is another that seems more exotic to me: Air China’s 5,192 miles (8,356 km) flight from Madrid-MAD to São Paulo-GRU. The 11 hr 10 min route (CA #907 or CCA907) is aboard an Airbus A330. Originating in Beijing-PEK, the total flight time to São Paulo-GRU via a 2 hr 10 min stop in Madrid-MAD is 25 hr 40 mins.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):


Obscure, why? All cities involved are major world cities. Have you ever heard of São Paulo?

It's 60% full with terrible times, and the fares in the market at prime times are pretty bad. There's just no way it's making money on a segment basis.


J is quite expensive any time of the year.
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:12 am

I'm curious what fares are on these fifth freedom routes. Cheaper than their competitors? Or more expensive? The local populations might have a preference against a foreign airline based half way around the world. But, These are generally some of the most deluxe airlines in the world, perhaps they can charge a premium over say a Brazilian or American competitor.
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:16 am

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Reply 38):
Good point, but are the Cook Islands still a sovereign state, an independent country? Or are they entirely aligned with New Zealand? I'm not very familiar....

The Cooks are an independent state in free association with New Zealand.

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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting texan (Reply 41):
Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Reply 38):
Good point, but are the Cook Islands still a sovereign state, an independent country? Or are they entirely aligned with New Zealand? I'm not very familiar....

The Cooks are an independent state in free association with New Zealand.

Regardless of the technicalities, let's let the mights 767-300 have its moment of glory!  
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Reply 37):

I was looking for this one and was worried they cancelled it! Glad you added it!
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 18):
Can't speak for others, but for CI's TPE-KIX-JFK, they layover at KIX at least 90% of the time and dead-head to the final destination less than 10% of the time.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 33):
If they flew to the final destination as passengers, you would have two crews at the destination and no-one to pick up the flight from the intermediate stop back to base. So no, in every case, the crew get off at the stop and the previous day's crew take their place and continue the flight. One exception would be where the fifth-freedom tag is a short sector, e.g. Ethiopian ADD-BKK-SIN-BKK-ADD, where the crew will operate ADD to BKK, nightstop, then the next day (assuming a daily flight, or a few days later if not) operate BKK-SIN-BKK, nightstop, BKK to ADD. This is commonly referred to as a "shuttle" by crew. BA do it on their tags, like the LHR-AUH-MCT route, the crew nightstop in AUH twice and not in MCT at all. There are a few in the Caribbean too, literally leaving their drinks on the bar in Nassau and taking a 767 or 777 to Grand Cayman and getting back three hours later. Nice!

Thanks for your detailed explanation  
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 33):
Quoting dmsolovyev (Reply 17):
I'm curious about crew rotation on long-haul routes such as GRU - LAX - ICN or SIN - DME - IAH. After stopover, does the arriving crew stay at hotel in Los-Angeles and Moscow respectively, or they fly to the final destination as passengers?

If they flew to the final destination as passengers, you would have two crews at the destination and no-one to pick up the flight from the intermediate stop back to base. So no, in every case, the crew get off at the stop and the previous day's crew take their place and continue the flight. One exception would be where the fifth-freedom tag is a short sector, e.g. Ethiopian ADD-BKK-SIN-BKK-ADD, where the crew will operate ADD to BKK, nightstop, then the next day (assuming a daily flight, or a few days later if not) operate BKK-SIN-BKK, nightstop, BKK to ADD. This is commonly referred to as a "shuttle" by crew. BA do it on their tags, like the LHR-AUH-MCT route, the crew nightstop in AUH twice and not in MCT at all. There are a few in the Caribbean too, literally leaving their drinks on the bar in Nassau and taking a 767 or 777 to Grand Cayman and getting back three hours later. Nice!

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 30):
QF would have been on there with SIN-LHR...SIN-CDG

Qantas, as far as I know, only ever operated to Paris as a tag-on to Frankfurt, so SYD-SIN-FRA-CDG (oh and this illustrates the above point - the Qantas crew would have never seen Paris, cos FRA-CDG is so short, both legs would easily fall inside a duty day, so SYD-SIN nightstop, SIN-FRA nightstop, FRA-CDG-FRA nightstop, FRA-SIN nightstop, SIN-SYD home).

Does anybody know how the UA crew operates the SYD-MEL-SYD tag on? I know the jet usually flew something like SFO-SYD-LAX-SYD-MEL-SYD-SFO and the tag on flight was the LAX flight but I have no idea how the crew operate the MEL sector. A UA FA once told me the pilots rest in SYD for 1 night after arriving from LAX or SFO and then fly SYD-MEL-SYD-LAX or SFO (in one duty which I don't believe). The FA also told me the cabin crew have 2 days more rest time than the pilots. The FA was right about the aircraft rotation patterns he mentioned but I find it very hard to believe what he said about crew usage...

[Edited 2014-04-21 22:42:26]
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I wonder how much they lose collectively annually on a segment basis? I wouldn't be surprised if it was close to $100MM.

At least in Air NZs case, the opposite. Yield on the LAX LHR route is much higher proportionally than AKL-LHR. In fact AKL-LHR used to be the lowest yield route in the network. For them it is much more profitable to sell a seat AKL-LAX and then resell it LAX-LHR. I imagine that that is the case for a lot of these 5th freedom routes.

Quoting dmsolovyev (Reply 17):
I'm curious about crew rotation on long-haul routes such as GRU - LAX - ICN or SIN - DME - IAH. After stopover, does the arriving crew stay at hotel in Los-Angeles and Moscow respectively, or they fly to the final destination as passengers?

Yes. In crewing parlance its called a 'slip'. Dead-heading is very rare, given crew rest requirements and the loss of revenue for the seats the crew take.
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:31 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 33):
Qantas, as far as I know, only ever operated to Paris as a tag-on to Frankfurt, so SYD-SIN-FRA-CDG (oh and this illustrates the above point - the Qantas crew would have never seen Paris, cos FRA-CDG is so short, both legs would easily fall inside a duty day, so SYD-SIN nightstop, SIN-FRA nightstop, FRA-CDG-FRA nightstop, FRA-SIN nightstop, SIN-SYD home).

QF certainly flew SIN-CDG non stop! Between 1999?-2004, the last time QF gave CDG a go it was SIN-CDG on a 744, i'm guessing before then they had done it as a tag from FRA. They also flew SIN-FCO briefly after dropping BKK-FCO then dropping FCO altogether.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 45):
A UA FA once told me the pilots rest in SYD for 1 night after arriving from LAX or SFO and then fly SYD-MEL-SYD-LAX or SFO (in one duty which I don't believe). The FA also told me the cabin crew have 2 days more rest time than the pilots.

Probably the other way round re the FA and Pilots. Both would do SYD-MEL-SYD one day then probably SYD-SFO the following but Cockpit crew would have 2-3 days in SYD after arriving LAX/SFO surely?
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting JMGRIFFIN (Reply 37):

So what's the updated ranking ? I believe BR's BKK-AMS and BKK-VIE should displace some on the list.
 
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RE: Top 15: Longest Fifth Freedom Flights In The World

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting pa747sp (Reply 46):
At least in Air NZs case, the opposite. Yield on the LAX LHR route is much higher proportionally than AKL-LHR. In fact AKL-LHR used to be the lowest yield route in the network. For them it is much more profitable to sell a seat AKL-LAX and then resell it LAX-LHR. I imagine that that is the case for a lot of these 5th freedom routes.

That's probably true for almost all of these, with the exception of some of SQ's routes.
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