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TWA772LR
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UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:20 pm

Plain and simple, do you think they will order it? Which version(s)? Where will they fly them? Are they even cinsidering it? Etc...

If Bombardier delivers on the TATL range promise, will we see it on EWR to UK/Ireland?
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FriendlySkies
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:28 pm

It's been reported here that while UA was looking at the C-Series back before the merger, it's no longer on the table. Obviously there are no official sources so take that as you will.

Given the addition of the E175 to the fleet (albeit with regional operators), I would be inclined to expect a UA order for E190 or E195 once the flight attendant contract is sorted out. Perhaps UA could be an initial customer for the E2 in 2018/2019.
 
UA444
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:52 pm

Would've loved to see the C-series and pre-merger, Glenn Tilton was impressed and I believe even called it a potential game changer.

Instead, we got a botched merger and a bunch of uncomfortable 737s.
 
AA737-823
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
Plain and simple, do you think they will order it?

No, unfortunately. See below.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1):
Obviously there are no official sources so take that as you will.

Actually, there was. I can't remember which exec said it, but in one of the recent conversations about fleet, they said that the numbers on the C-Series don't work for UA.

The problem with the plane is that it's too big for regional ops, and too small to pay a mainline pilot.
That doesn't mean it's a bad plane, it just means that the labor situation in the US is..... non-conducive to success, lol.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:41 pm

Unfortunately I think UA will scimp and go for the E190. The CS will be superior in every regard, not least maintenance costs and dispatch reliability, both of which suck on the E90.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):

I'm sorry, but that is an interesting interpretation of history. What you got pre-merger was the parking of the entire 737 fleet to be completely replaced by regionals. Give that Tilton had just parked the aircraft in that category to farm out the flying to the lowest bidder, I sincerely doubt he was about to buy the CS, regardless of his public statements.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
The problem with the plane is that it's too big for regional ops, and too small to pay a mainline pilot.
That doesn't mean it's a bad plane, it just means that the labor situation in the US is..... non-conducive to success, lol.

That's interesting considering that the new pilot contact severely limits the number of 76-seaters that can be on property without a small mainline jet (I think it actually goes down in 2016, as does the total number of RJs allowed). Does that mean UA will perpetually have a seat gap between 76 and 130-ish?

Not saying you are wrong, just that it sounds kind of...short sighted on UA's part.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:11 pm

Yes UA indeed looked at them, but its not going to happen.

You cant get enough revenue on them to cover mainline cost. The A319/737-700 as is are handicapped.
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UA444
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
I'm sorry, but that is an interesting interpretation of history. What you got pre-merger was the parking of the entire 737 fleet to be completely replaced by regionals. Give that Tilton had just parked the aircraft in that category to farm out the flying to the lowest bidder, I sincerely doubt he was about to buy the CS, regardless of his public statements

They were putting out RFP for a narrowbody order to replace their 757s and those 737s. That is a fact. And those 737s were retired because oil reached 150$ a barrel and they were old gas guzzlers. They were originally going to do a winner takes all with the widebodies, but since they liked the 787 and A350, they ordered both and were going to do the narrowbody order by the end of 2010. The merger stopped that.

[Edited 2014-04-21 14:14:55]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:19 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):
Instead, we got a botched merger and a bunch of uncomfortable 737s.

Yes, 10-20 years as the worst legacy carrier and Tilton was gonna turn it all around with a C series order. Give me a break 
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
You cant get enough revenue on them to cover mainline cost

   Also why the 190 has such trouble selling, or staying in anyone's fleet
I don't take responsibility at all
 
Beatyair
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:27 pm

Republic needs to put somebodies paint on the planes they ordered, why not United?
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
he problem with the plane is that it's too big for regional ops, and too small to pay a mainline pilot

If this is in fact true, then UA will have a permanent gap between aircraft with 76 seats and however many seats the 737-700/A319s are configured with. (120-ish?)

I haven't seen the ALPA contract language but is the number of 76-seaters tied to a total mainline fleet count, a narrow body of any type count or specifically a 100-seat capable aircraft joining the fleet? It seems strange that UA would agree to contract language that makes the pilot pay for a 100-seater so high that it makes operating the aircraft unprofitable out the door. I wonder if there are other costs associated with the CSeries/E190 that make them unprofitable.

As the 50-seaters are retired, smaller cities will simply lose service if the right-sized planes cannot be substituted on these routes.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting beatyair (Reply 9):
Republic needs to put somebodies paint on the planes they ordered, why not United?

ALPA would have a stroke if that were to happen.
When wasn't America great?


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ua900
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:32 pm

UA seems to prefer CR7 and E70 if they can't fill 120 seats on a mainliner. They seem comfortable with the gap between 76 and 120, and IMO the union contracts are also a key reason behind the lack of something smaller. Their 733s had 108ish seat iirc and if that wasn't profitable mainline, I doubt they'd do a C series or a E90 mainline due to the union agreement, even with better fuel economy. Let's see how the regional pilot shortage plays into this, perhaps the only way to make E90s or c series happen at mainline is to hire regional pilots and slot them at the bottom of the UA pilots to pay them less than the current minimum on grounds that it's a smaller aircraft than a 319.
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boilerla
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 10):
I haven't seen the ALPA contract language but is the number of 76-seaters tied to a total mainline fleet count, a narrow body of any type count or specifically a 100-seat capable aircraft joining the fleet? It seems strange that UA would agree to contract language that makes the pilot pay for a 100-seater so high that it makes operating the aircraft unprofitable out the door. I wonder if there are other costs associated with the CSeries/E190 that make them unprofitable.

I believe the number of 76 seaters can go from 153 to 223 in 2016 if UA adds a 90 to 140 seat plane to mainline flying by 2016. For 1.25 mainline planes added in 2016, regardless of size, UA may add an additional 70-76 seater. The number of 50 seaters must be reduced at the same time, or the number of 76 seaters allowed drops.

Also IIRC, UA did add a pay scale for a CS100 sized aircraft based on DL's pay scales for the 717--at least I think I saw that.

Given UA's recent statements regarding fleet size and desire to return capital to shareholders, I am guessing UA will not place an order for the CSeries until post 2017, when the oldest A319s begin retirement and UA has reduced their debut following their three recent huge orders for the A350, 787 and 737.

[Edited 2014-04-21 18:25:12]
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:41 am

Allow me to add onto the subject.

Republic has an order for 40 Bombardier CS300s
Skywest has an order for 100 Embraer ERJ-175 E2s and 100 Mitsubishi MRJ90s
Trans State Holdings also has an order for the MRJ90. 50 copies.

All of these companies contract as UAEX in some way.
So, following up with TWA772LRs question, what chances do these planes have wearing the UA colors?
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
sldispatcher
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:50 am

I'm not buying the idea that mainline pilots make so much money that 30 or 40 extra seats can't make up that difference. I certainly realize that there are other costs associated with operating the frame, BUT the CS100/300 are supposed to have such great economics that the cost of pilot salary shouldn't be much of a blip on the radar scope. As I recall, the 733's were retired as well as 735's from CO because of fuel and growing maintenance costs.

It is also important for me to put in perspective where some of us were premerger on the Continental side as a consumer. SAAB 340's and a 50 seat restriction on regional flying.

Depending on where one sits, we've come a long way! I personally think that the comments about the C Series not fitting in with United (and that was from an interview on cranky flyer) could just as easily been for bargaining purposes. I also disagree with how management has had a lack of vision in so many different aspects of capacity vs. frequency vs. growth. Will be interesting to watch.

I am personally rooting for a C Series sized aircraft order.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:04 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 14):
Republic has an order for 40 Bombardier CS300s
Skywest has an order for 100 Embraer ERJ-175 E2s and 100 Mitsubishi MRJ90s
Trans State Holdings also has an order for the MRJ90. 50 copies.

All of these companies contract as UAEX in some way.
So, following up with TWA772LRs question, what chances do these planes have wearing the UA colors?

As long as it fits in the contract, they may be added. Its also possible the regional pilot shortage over the next five years becomes so acute that we'll see a sea change in the airlines basic operational structure. The unions will work the numbers to see how acute the shortage is and how they can get wages back up to the levels seen around/after 9/11 before the bankruptcies and the great recession hit the industry.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:01 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
As long as it fits in the contract, they may be added.

IIRC, there's not only a seat limit in the UA pilot contract, there's also a weight limit - I think it's 86,000 pounds. IOW, some of these planes will be too heavy to flown by the regional airlines; they'd have to be mainline.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:13 am

Quoting boilerla (Reply 13):
I believe the number of 76 seaters can go from 153 to 223 in 2016 if UA adds a 90 to 140 seat plane to mainline flying by 2016.

So an additional order for 737-700s would meet that requirement? Might be much most cost effective than adding a whole new fleet type to the mix. WN seems to do pretty well with a 737-700 as their smallest plane so it' s not the end of the world if UA can't acquire the perfect plane for every possible market. The cost savings with simply having more 737s when considering training, parts, crew scheduling might easily outweigh the disadvantage of flying with a slightly lower load factor sometimes. That excess capacity could really pay off during irregular ops and we all know how many irr-ops days the industry had this year.

Many of the markets that UA is now flying 50 or 70-seat planes in once sustained mainline service years ago when flying was comparably much more expensive. It's not like they couldn't fill them again. Cities like LNK, TUS, ABQ, ICT, CID etc. used to have 727 service from both ORD and DEN.
 
mcdu
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
Unfortunately I think UA will scimp and go for the E190. The CS will be superior in every regard, not least maintenance costs and dispatch reliability, both of which suck on the E90.

How do you know the C series will be superior? It's severely delayed out of the starting blocks. Bombardier says its due to "overall system maturity". That sounds like reliability issues.
 
slider
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
Unfortunately I think UA will scimp and go for the E190. The CS will be superior in every regard, not least maintenance costs and dispatch reliability, both of which suck on the E90.

Really...do you have facts to support that assertion? Just curious.

New aircraft, when inducted, typically struggle with DR for a host of reasons. Time will tell. But to make a blanket statement that the CS will be superior in every regard is simply inflammatory.
 
lhcvg
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
Really...do you have facts to support that assertion? Just curious.

New aircraft, when inducted, typically struggle with DR for a host of reasons. Time will tell. But to make a blanket statement that the CS will be superior in every regard is simply inflammatory.

And it *may* turn out that the mx folks have begun to iron out the kinks in the E90 mx and DR by the time C-Series frames arrive on property. Factor in the teething for any new type as Slider notes, and the E90s may be better than the C-Series initially. In any event, we'll have no idea until CS's start showing up.
 
Alias1024
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:23 pm

If DL can make the 717 work with similar crew costs, I think UA can make it work at the right acquisition cost. I believe UA's statements are an attempt to get a good price from Bombardier. The 717 works because it was a current generation aircraft available at low price. The CSeries is a generation newer, but not so significantly more efficient to offset a high purchase price. UAs statements may be nothing more than posturing.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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par13del
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 22):
If DL can make the 717 work with similar crew costs, I think UA can make it work at the right acquisition cost.

Well it should be noted that DL went into Chpt.11 after UA, so the DL pilots contracts inclusive of scope is different assuming tey took lessons from UA, and since these small a/c purchases are based on scope, just because DL can do it does not mean that UA can, totally different contract.
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):
Would've loved to see the C-series and pre-merger, Glenn Tilton was impressed and I believe even called it a potential game changer.

Instead, we got a botched merger and a bunch of uncomfortable 737s.

*************************************************************************************************************************************************
The C series is a LOT of speculation, Tilton didn'y have a CLUE as to WHAT he was talking about,
Heck! He probably got a GOOD chunk of Change in his pocket for us to order the A350. being the Crook he was !
If you trust HIM as any expert on airplanes? Then you're a FOOL!!
The 737 is a Tried and TRUE airplane Made for what it's doing. Who ELSE in US mainline service has ordered the
C series if it's so damn good??
You A*nutters would be the FIRST to criticize UA were we to buy that airplane and it turned out to be a FLOP!
Maybe Bombardier could offer them like Airbus offered the A320/A319's to United.
OFFER them on a 5 yr "Walkaway" lease. If in the first 5 years we don't like them?? We park 'Em and Bombardier picks them up, NO Questions ASKED .
If the airplane is any good?? We'll keep them like we did the Airbus A320/ A319's because they're a "workhorse" airplane.
I'vw worked BOTH airplanes and I'd Stack the A320 / A319 up side by side with the 737 Series even though I think the A321 is an airplane that's an underperformer with too litle wing and a weak design. Airbus could have done a FAR better Job with that airplane.
And another thing!! The Merger is going where it's supposed to go because things are being LEARNED by the SCO managment they DIDN'T know at the beginning of the merger.
Delta has had some hiccups as well and American WILL have some Hiccups if Parker and his boys go in there thinking they have all the answers.
Because Just like SCO Managemnt? They DON'T!!
Pre-Merger United and American didn't get to be who they are by accident .. And?? Just like SCO managment is finding out?? SUA DID have some excellent proceedures, So they're NOW coming around to listen to a few of them .
We're getting this "show" on the ROAD in Good fashion!!
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):


I'm sorry, but that is an interesting interpretation of history. What you got pre-merger was the parking of the entire 737 fleet to be completely replaced by regionals. Give that Tilton had just parked the aircraft in that category to farm out the flying to the lowest bidder, I sincerely doubt he was about to buy the CS, regardless of his public statements

Not to dispute youe summation but United parked the 737's for an OBJECT lesson To ALPA,!! They were playing GAMES Refusing and Downing airplanes LEFT Right and Center in 2005 with Bogus Gripes and complaints because they couldn't get the Company to re-open their contract early. The reason Managment GAVE was bogus as well.
That deal was a proverbial PUNCH IN the MOUTH to ALPA !! But it DID have one effect. That Game plaing?? Came to a SCREECHING Halt because of the monitorability of the Airbus vs the 737. I can sit at my worksation and see problems BEFORE the pilots know they EXIST. Whatever they complain about? 98% of the time I can see it..
As a controller? I don't HAVE to take their word for much of anything and I DON'T.
Now maybe they'll have learned the lesson and NOT do that again or they Won't. Because if they Do?
There might be a LOT of Pilots Missing a LOT of money for flights they didn't get paid for. I don't think that old Plan will work ever again.
Involving airplanes in a contract dispute? Was a BAD move by BOTH sides!!
 
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par13del
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 25):
That Game plaing?? Came to a SCREECHING Halt because of the monitorability of the Airbus vs the 737. I can sit at my worksation and see problems BEFORE the pilots know they EXIST. Whatever they complain about? 98% of the time I can see it..

So when we read all the stories about UA going Airbus over Boeing we should not that the ability to monitor the activity taking place in the a/c was just as importnant on the FBW and fule burn etc.
Interesting, it may have been general knowledge at the time to those actively involved, but to others its news.
 
Alias1024
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 23):
Well it should be noted that DL went into Chpt.11 after UA, so the DL pilots contracts inclusive of scope is different assuming tey took lessons from UA, and since these small a/c purchases are based on scope, just because DL can do it does not mean that UA can, totally different contract.

The current UA pilot contract was ratified after the most recent DL contract. DL ratifying their contract is what really put the fire to UA management's feet to get a deal done. Neither contract would have any objection to CSeries being flown by mainline pilots. Neither would allow regionals to fly CSeries in UA or DL colors.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 26):
So when we read all the stories about UA going Airbus over Boeing we should not that the ability to monitor the activity taking place in the a/c was just as importnant on the FBW and fule burn etc.Interesting, it may have been general knowledge at the time to those actively involved, but to others its news.

There's NO reason you SHOULD have known that. I only knew about it because I was living Through it.!
It was starting to look like the summer of 2000 all over again. Just that this time?? The company was more Treacherous than the Pilots knew them to be.
It didn't seem to bother them at ALL that they put 1400+ pilots on the Streets for 10 years on Average.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
So an additional order for 737-700s would meet that requirement

I'd expect UA to convert and/or order additional 737 MAX aircraft, like the MAX 7 and 8, but I think the CS300 for UA mainline wouldn't be a bad option either.
Another great option would be the ERJ-190/-195 E2.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 24):
Tilton didn'y have a CLUE as to WHAT he was talking about

Tilton was named one of the worst airline CEOs.
He's now happily retired, however.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 16):
As long as it fits in the contract, they may be added. Its also possible the regional pilot shortage over the next five years becomes so acute that we'll see a sea change in the airlines basic operational structure. The unions will work the numbers to see how acute the shortage is and how they can get wages back up to the levels seen around/after 9/11 before the bankruptcies and the great recession hit the industry

I'll buy that.
Just curious, thanks for the input  

I'm actually excited to see the MRJ in person! Glad some carriers here ordered some!
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
LouieP2186
Posts: 82
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RE: UA And The CSeries

Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:49 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 2):
Instead, we got a botched merger and a bunch of uncomfortable 737s.

Which have a better dispatch rate then the Airbus fleet....at least you can CNTL-ALT-DEL the bus to reset the computer which is the issue mostly.....  

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 18):
WN seems to do pretty well with a 737-700 as their smallest plane so it' s not the end of the world if UA can't acquire the perfect plane for every possible market.

The 737-500 for WN is actually smaller........

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