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tyler81190
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Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:24 am

I know the airports in the USA have no "in-transit" abilities due to the layout. Many years ago, airports weren't even designed for security, and even those that were, have been having issues will all the changes post 9/11.

I am wondering why U.S. airport don't build in-transit facilities? One would think that IAH/DFW or even ORD would be the perfect transit points for S. America/Central America and Mexico to Europe/Asia/Australia/Africa.

JFK (not laid out well at all) is in a perfect location for such an option. EWR is a little better in terms of terminal layout. IAH would close off E, DFW could isolate one of it's terminals, ORD could move all international to T5, LAX could have some in-transit at TBIT but it would be very limited.

Is there a chance our airports will ever be upgraded to allow such a thing? Would it be worth the costs to have massive international to international connections here in the U.S.?

The other point would be to have better border control with passport checks on entry AND exit, would there be any worth to having this included?
 
tortugamon
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:34 am

I don't think Homeland Secutirty wants people boarding flights to the US that have not received a US visa. Also the need is not very large as the US is not a very logical spot for many routes and comparatively the costs would be dramatic. I think we will see more US customs abroad like AUH and DOH and many airports in Canada.

tortugamon
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:40 am

why would they? If you can't/don't want to get the right to travel to the US, take a flight that doesn't involve the US.

There is not one place on this planet you can't get to while avoiding the US. Sucks for US airlines, but the expense and security issues are large and the value to the US public is non-existant.
 
avek00
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
Is there a chance our airports will ever be upgraded to allow such a thing? Would it be worth the costs to have massive international to international connections here in the U.S.?

Several US airports DO have international-to-international transit facilities, but carriers effectively cannot use them due to Homeland Security regulations.

Going forward, it makes little sense for USA airports to consider ITI facilities even if the regulatory hurdles could be overcome. Latin America and Canada did not put their travel demand on hold after the USA suspended ITI -- flights from LatAm/Canada to Europe and Asia have expanded significantly over the past dozen years, providing all sorts of USA-bypass options. IMHO only Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Dallas and Houston would find the upkeep of ITI facilities worthwhile at this point.

[Edited 2014-04-21 22:15:52]
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jfidler
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:16 am

I was talking with a friend about this the other day. Leaving aside any CBP/DHS/TSA issues, it's probably not worth the expense to reconfigure airports for this. First, the majority of passengers at airports are traveling domestically, so this doesn't affect them. Then, of the international passengers, it must be a tiny fraction who are transiting the US. I'm guessing it's mostly Europe-Mexico/South America traffic, and that can't be that much. Canadians probably do a lot of transit in the US, but most of them start their journey from a Canadian airport with pre-clearance so it doesn't matter much to them anyway.

I imagine someone has the data on this, which would be interesting to see. My guess is it's fewer than 1% of all passengers at a US airport are international transit passengers.

[Edited 2014-04-21 22:17:38]
 
tortugamon
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:43 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 3):

I would add HNL to your list. It is an ideal location for a lot of Asia-Latin America/Canada routes.

tortugamon
 
HKG212
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:59 am

Quoting jfidler (Reply 4):
I'm guessing it's mostly Europe-Mexico/South America traffic

The biggest potential market is north and east Asia-Latin America. I fly regularly from HKG to Latin America via the US, which offers far more connectivity to Latin America than any European or Middle Eastern hub (MAD would be an exception, but for reasons unknown to me MAD has no direct service to Asia). As a US citizen it's pretty straightforward, but the visa thing can be a big hassle to others.

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
DFW could isolate one of it's terminals

DFW already has ITI facilities in Terminal D, which are not being used. At least it is the only airport in the US (to my knowledge) that allows direct ITI baggage transfer, which is a big advantage and why I prefer DFW over any other airport for my trips to Latin America.

In general though, for countries where there are no departures border controls and where airports mix international and domestic traffic (like the US and Canada) international in-transit service is inherently inconsistent with the way facilities and operations are organized. The unused facilities in DFW, for example, provide a small waiting lounge off the arrivals corridor, which would entail a fairly miserable experience for any extended transit period.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting jfidler (Reply 4):
My guess is it's fewer than 1% of all passengers at a US airport are international transit passengers.

Of course, because of the visa hassle. Offering connections via US would provide many Europe-Caribbean, Europe-Mexico, Europe-South America, Asia-South America routes much needed competition. Nowadays not many bother because of the trouble that transiting via US brings. It doesn't mean that there would not be much more passengers doing it, if it was not such a pain.

Lost business for US airlines, IMHO, but of course the US is free to choose the way it wants to handle this. Even China offers visa-free transit these days.
 
StTim
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:46 am

Flying to Australasia from the UK I have been offered via LAX but always refuse it as there is no transfer. The process of entering the US only to immediately depart is not attractive.

I knew of some friends from Poland who struggled to get home from Mexico post a hurricane as all flights seemed to be via Miami and they did not have visas.

It is not a large problem but it is costing US airlines opportunities.

Recently travelling back from St Louis to London I was able to make use of the BA shuttle which did allow me to not have to do the O'Hare T3 to T5 trasnfer and back through security again.
 
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:32 am

NZ use a transit lounge for their NZ1/2 customers between AKL and LHR at LAX. The passengers clear some form of customs first before getting penned into a holding room. Once NZ moves to TBIT middle of this year that fully changes with the passengers free to roam the secure part of the terminal
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mozart
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:43 am

Interesting. Didn't know NZ was doing that. Wonder why AF and Air Tahiti Nui don't do the same thing for their Paris-LAX-Papeete service. That must be the only domestic flight in the world where a visa is required because of US paranoia and/or the airline's disorganisation.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
Would it be worth the costs to have massive international to international connections here in the U.S.?

No. Geography and modern aircraft range capabilities prevent the US from ever having significant international to international connection traffic.

There simply isn't a need to divert South America bound aircraft to an extra stop in the US for connection traffic. Mexico traffic also does not need a stop in the US either.

Asia to Central/ South America might be possible - but the routes are too thin to justify the expense.

Ranges are such that overflying the US is simple and cheaper for the airlines, so there is no need to invest in such an infrastructure in the US.
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yv773p
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 2):

The visa issue is not the problem, it is having to clear custom, rechecking your bag and go through security only to leave the US in an hour or so. I think the satellite E at MIA used to have ITI.
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FoxBravo
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:16 pm

As others have mentioned, it's tricky due to the lack of immigration formalities on departure. In many other countries, before you go into the international departure area of the airport, you go through passport control and enter a sterile zone. While facilities vary depending on the size of the airport, there are usually stores, restaurants, lounges, etc. within this zone. So it's easy to accommodate in-transit passengers by simply keeping them in this area. Some airports, like AMS, DXB and SIN, get a huge amount of revenue from, and are specifically designed to appeal to, passengers who never intend to enter the airports' respective countries.

In the US, however, there is no passport control when you leave the country. International and domestic departing passengers mingle freely. In fact, due to gate limitations international flights often leave from otherwise "domestic" (i.e., with no immigration facilities) terminals. And when arriving from an international flight, passengers are generally all funneled into immigration immediately after landing. There has, therefore, been no historical incentive for airports to build any meaningful facilities (other than a sterile room here and there, as noted) to accommodate passengers in transit.

There may be a handful of places--e.g., LAX and MIA--where it could theoretically make sense to have a sterile zone equipped with facilities specifically for connecting passengers, IF the visa situation could be simplified. However, unless the US suddenly changes its policies dramatically and implements passport control at departure, which seems unlikely if for no other reason than it would require a major redesign of all of our international airports, I don't see this happening on a large scale anytime soon.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:27 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):
As others have mentioned, it's tricky due to the lack of immigration formalities on departure. In many other countries, before you go into the international departure area of the airport, you go through passport control and enter a sterile zone.

Immigration exit formalities are not a prerequisite to having a sterile facility, though. ORD Terminal 5's sterile area, for instance, is already effectively isolated, and if my recollection of YUL is correct, you just go through a door where someone checks your boarding pass to access the international gates.
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richcandy
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:15 pm

Hi

A little bit of topic but what happens with passengers travelling from CDG to PPT (TN or AF) or LHR to AKL (NZ). Both routes operate with a stop at LAX. Do passengers traveling on the above journeys have to clear US customs or immigration at LAX?

Alex
 
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
I know the airports in the USA have no "in-transit" abilities due to the layout. Many years ago, airports weren't even designed for security, and even those that were, have been having issues will all the changes post 9/11.

I am wondering why U.S. airport don't build in-transit facilities? One would think that IAH/DFW or even ORD would be the perfect transit points for S. America/Central America and Mexico to Europe/Asia/Australia/Africa.

JFK (not laid out well at all) is in a perfect location for such an option. EWR is a little better in terms of terminal layout. IAH would close off E, DFW could isolate one of it's terminals, ORD could move all international to T5, LAX could have some in-transit at TBIT but it would be very limited.

I'll answer you questions with a question.

How would you distinguish a domestic passenger from a passenger "in-transit"? While I understand what you are proposing here in the U.S. there is no way to cut off all international arrivals and departures from the domestic operations like you can in other countries.

Also there are a lot more domestic passengers who make connections to international flights than there are in-transit passengers here in the U.S. and most domestic passengers are probably happy that they only have to go thru security once most times when they are making a connection to an international flight. It is very convent for passengers to disembark their domestic flight and connect to their international flight with out having to deal with the hassles of waiting to go thru another security checkpoint.
However there a few exceptions at every airport like here at ORD if you are departing out of T5 you must pass thru security again if you arrive at any of the domestic terminals. So I just don't think it will ever work on a large scale here in the U.S.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:29 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
Immigration exit formalities are not a prerequisite to having a sterile facility, though.

No, they're not, but they help in building enough demand to create a dedicated sterile area with facilities like stores and restaurants (as opposed to simply a guarded room). Unlike airports in other countries where that demand results from all departing international passengers, in the US it would be limited to the few people in transit between two other countries--which at most airports is close to z
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StTim
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:29 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 16):
However there a few exceptions at every airport like here at ORD if you are departing out of T5 you must pass thru security again if you arrive at any of the domestic terminals. So I just don't think it will ever work on a large scale here in the U.S.

This is not always true. Arrive on a one world flight and depart on BA and you can catch a shuttle that connects directly from the domestic terminal over to the secure side of the Terminal 5. I have used this a few times and it is a great facility.
 
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:36 pm

If a US airport were to build a terminal that was strictly for international flights (no domestic flights, period) and once you entered the airside area there was no way to get back to landside, I could see DHS allowing TWOV or INI on a case by case basis. Maybe if the US also had departure border control, too.
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boeing773er
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:40 pm

Personally, I just don't see much reason that the US needs extra traffic from other countries. To have all of these remodels that would need to be done to make these airports capable of performing in-transit connections is high. The United States isn't placed in the worlds best location to do these transits either, not that we can't it's just other countries such as the UAE do it a lot better.

The only place where the US is set up well for these types of connections would be Asia - South America, and there are only a couple of true South American gateways in the US, such as IAH, and MIA. These places are already so far from Asia that it makes a very long trip for anyone willing to do so. With the next generation of airplanes, these routes will be easier to serve, but the question is; is the market there?
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LAXintl
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:48 pm

Lets put this in perspective.

In 2013, the US had 826 million air travelers.

Of this 97.5mil (11.8%) were international.

The top 30 commercial airports in the US handled about 85% of these 97.5mil passengers.


How many in-transit passengers do you think the US could possibly generate? For this post how about a very generous 10% of 97.5? So that is 9.8million -- mere 1.2% of US enplanements.


Does is make sense to spend BILLIONS redesigning several dozen airports which have multiple terminals to potentially serve 1% more of potential clients? No way.
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ORDTLV2414
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
ORD could move all international to T5,

ORD does not have that capability, T5 is already packed, no room for AA and UA to do INTL departures from there.
 
aw70
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:20 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):

NZ use a transit lounge for their NZ1/2 customers between AKL and LHR at LAX. The passengers clear some form of customs first before getting penned into a holding room.

What you are describing is at least not done every time. I was on NZ 2 two months ago, and on NZ 1 5 ago. In both cases, no such arrangement was in place.
 
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):

NZ use a transit lounge for their NZ1/2 customers between AKL and LHR at LAX. The passengers clear some form of customs first before getting penned into a holding room. Once NZ moves to TBIT middle of this year that fully changes with the passengers free to roam the secure part of the terminal

How does KE do it on their Brazil to ICN service via LAX ?
 
spud757
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 13):

Here in the UK domestic and international departure pax mingle, along with those in transit. The UK Border Agency doesn't check passports leaving the UK either. Domestic arrivals are kept separate though.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 2):
the value to the US public is non-existant.

That may be a tough one to quantify ... but ...

What do you suppose the value of Singapore Airlines is to Singapore? Or KLM to the Netherlands? Or Etihad, Emirates, Qatar Airways, Turkish Airlines, etc etc etc to their respective countries/kingdoms?

They are all largely "connection" airlines that bring in an enormous amount of revenue to their home lands. The air carriers of the United States too could make a lot of money connecting through the United States. While it would be no where near the majority of their traffic, any additional revenue is good, no?
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:39 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
They are all largely "connection" airlines that bring in an enormous amount of revenue to their home lands. The air carriers of the United States too could make a lot of money connecting through the United States. While it would be no where near the majority of their traffic, any additional revenue is good, no?

Pre- 9/11 we had some passengers making a connection in the US for non-US travel.

security measures have removed almost all of that from the market post 9/11

So *TODAY* the value is nil as the market has moved on and found ways to avoid needing to transit in the US. US airlines also make no money doing this and plan their routes accordingly.
 
akelley728
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:48 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
the perfect transit points for S. America/Central America and Mexico to Europe/Asia/Australia/Africa

Isn't this the point of the 787? Boeing designed it as a long-range 'point-to-point' to bypass hubs and 'transit points'. Why go 3000 miles out of your way to connect in the U.S. when a 787 can take you direct from say EZE - CDG?
 
EL-AL
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 12):
The visa issue is not the problem, it is having to clear custom, rechecking your bag and go through security only to leave the US in an hour or so. I think the satellite E at MIA used to have ITI.

Why do you say that? Do you have an idea what a mess is it to issue a US visa? Here is Israel you need to apply and fill an english-only 4 pages long document, then getting from anywhere in the country to the embassy in Tel Aviv at the day and time they tell you (-> and loosing day at work) just to stand 2-4 hours ON YOUR FEET not matter your age or how many times you have been to the US before then when interviewed you are immediately suspected for illegal immigration attempt even before you said one word. Oh, and it cost $180.

Many of my friends do not even consider visiting the United States just because of that, and it is common to find Israelis in the 20s or 30s who been many times in many counties in Europe, Asia, South America and even Canada or Australia but never in the US just because of the visa issues. Issuing visa to PRC or Australia for example is way easier, cheaper, and done my mail.

So regarding the matter, the visa is indeed issue on this discussion. The country that has the largest airlines in the world is loosing a lot of passenger traffic in order to avoid issuing US visa and the unpleasant transit in US airports. Many young Israelis go every year to south america after the military service, all of them connecting in MAD, CDG, FCO or FRA - none in MIA or any other US airport, as the visa rejection rate for 21-25 years old Israeli citizens is no less then 36%. and no, you do not get the money back. I only know one person ever connected in US airport while not travelling to the USA, and that was only because he has also British citizenship.

[Edited 2014-04-22 16:53:31]
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DDR
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting mozart (Reply 10):
That must be the only domestic flight in the world where a visa is required because of US paranoia and/or the airline's disorganisation.

Sorry you feel that way but you are wrong. The USA is a constant target for terrorists and too bad if you have to be inconvenienced. People like to bash the USA and their security issues but lets not forget over 3,000 people were killed in a terrorist attack in the US because the government wanted to make it easy to travel and fly in the country. That has changed and it will not go back. By all means, skip the US and transit in another country. Like others have said, the US doesn't even make sense for a logical transit point to most places. We can fly nonstop from Europe to South America.

The US aviation market is so big that it does not need people to transit in the country. There is plenty of o&d traffic to support several airlines. Compared to a country like Finland, one small to medium size US airport sees more traffic in one day than Helsinki sees in one week. I just do not understand why people always feel the need to bash the U.S., this isn't a political forum.
 
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 5):
I would add HNL to your list. It is an ideal location for a lot of Asia-Latin America/Canada routes.

HNL is far from an ideal connecting point for Asia-Canada. It's much further and means several hours additional travel compared to the many other much more direct routes. The days of HNL as a major connecting point between mainland North America and Asia ended once aircraft had the range for nonstop service to/from Japan and later points beyond.
 
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Polot
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:47 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 26):
What do you suppose the value of Singapore Airlines is to Singapore? Or KLM to the Netherlands? Or Etihad, Emirates, Qatar Airways, Turkish Airlines, etc etc etc to their respective countries/kingdoms?

They are all largely "connection" airlines that bring in an enormous amount of revenue to their home lands. The air carriers of the United States too could make a lot of money connecting through the United States. While it would be no where near the majority of their traffic, any additional revenue is good, no?

Those airports (with the possible exception of Istanbul) were built from the ground up to be intl-intl connecting points though as Singapore, the Netherlands, and the UAE have none to virtually no domestic flights. Would the additional revenue from the little connecting traffic that US carriers would get be worth all the money they will have to spend to reconfigure all their terminals for sterile intl-intl connections? Probably not, and would actually probably serve to inconvenience their far larger domestic-intl connection traveler group.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 30):
People like to bash the USA and their security issues but lets not forget over 3,000 people were killed in a terrorist attack

Not to be rude or demean the deaths of 3000 innocent people, but nearly 6 times that many people died from drunk driving crashes that year.

Just some perspective.
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bogota
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:52 am

Everytime this subject comes around there is massive defense of the current status quo with all kind of excuses. So it is clear that US Americans do not want the business. And in all fareness with most US airports being older and not exactly pretty, with most US airlines having many old planes, old cranky crews and aphauling service, with the hazzle it is to go through inmigration, customs and TSA why would anybody in the right mind buy a ticket to transit through the US. It is a hazzle enough when you travel to that country, and do not get me wrong I like the US and travel there frequently, but airports in the US are all but a pleasure to go through, not even for airplane freaks like us.



[Edited 2014-04-22 18:54:41]
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:24 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 11):
Asia to Central/ South America might be possible - but the routes are too thin to justify the expense.

And those flights to Central and northern South America might likely be routed via ANC, as ANC is the only U.S. airport right now which allows foreigners who need them to transit without a U.S. Visa.
ANC does have an in-transit area outside U.S. immigration/customs control.
If it's being used now, that's another question.
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ikramerica
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
Not to be rude or demean the deaths of 3000 innocent people, but nearly 6 times that many people died from drunk driving crashes that year.

Just some perspective.

And we spend a lot of money and effort trying to stop those too.

But the response was related to the comment about "paranoia" being responsible for the lack of sterile international terminals. That's far from the reason.

Rebuilding the airports to accommodate the very small demand for transit would inconvenience the US and public and those who are visiting the US. It would make connections domestically to international much longer, REQUIRING terminal changes or segregation.

How exactly would one redesign LAX? Force AA, UA, DL to operate international flights from TBIT? Force all passengers connecting in from domestic flights to then transfer to TBIT? All so a few transit passengers that day don't have to clear immigration/secure a visa?

That's not a tradeoff I would advocate. Our system works for us and for those actually visiting the US. If the USA were well located like England or Japan, Dubai or Hong Kong, a waypoint between massive populations trying to get from one part of the world to the other, it might make sense. But most people who transit through a USA airport are doing so to get to/from somewhere else in the USA.

And while it might be an option to use a US city as a gateway, it's often just an alternative to another route, or a non-stop route. High yield pax wouldn't choose that routing over a non-stop. So why change everything to chase low-yield?
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bogota
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 36):
If the USA were well located like England or Japan, Dubai or Hong Kong, a waypoint between massive populations trying to get from one part of the world to the other, it might make sense

The US is right in the middle of the 600 million Latin Americans and the 1,4 billion Chinese, which are two of the fastest middle class growing áreas in the world, which basically means where you find the greatest potential growth in the near future for passengers. Just look at the growth of airports of airports in both áreas and you will see how wrong your appreciation is.
 
zkncj
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting aw70 (Reply 23):

What you are describing is at least not done every time. I was on NZ 2 two months ago, and on NZ 1 5 ago. In both cases, no such arrangement was in place.

There was a period recently where is wasn't done and all passengers had to clear customs, this has now been stopped and the transit holding lounge is pack in service.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting Hkg212 (Reply 6):

DFW already has ITI facilities in Terminal D, which are not being used. At least it is the only airport in the US (to my knowledge) that allows direct ITI baggage transfer, which is a big advantage and why I prefer DFW over any other airport for my trips to Latin America.

Houston has had international-to-international direct bag transfers for a long time now, and for a few years has had a customs "one stop" for people with that ITI, or with carry on bags only allowing them to skip the customs part of CBP.

IIRC Chicago is working something similar.

One still must clear TSA but it does remove one step of the two step CBP process and it is nice to not have to lug bags and recheck. A good friend just used it again two weeks ago LHR-IAH-BZE on UA and loved it.
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D L X
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting BOGOTA (Reply 37):
The US is right in the middle of the 600 million Latin Americans and the 1,4 billion Chinese, which are two of the fastest middle class growing áreas in the world, which basically means where you find the greatest potential growth in the near future for passengers. Just look at the growth of airports of airports in both áreas and you will see how wrong your appreciation is.

How many passengers per day transit between South America and Asia via the United States? Is it enough to build facilities to specially accommodate them? How about MEX? Do they have transit facilities?

[Edited 2014-04-22 20:03:57]
 
opethfan
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 30):

I hate to break this to you, but Canada, France, the UK, Russia, China, Mexico, Turkey, Brazil, New Zealand, et al. have experienced acts of air terrorism, many of them fatal. And many of those countries still have the same airside transiting that we're discussing in this thread. And the events of 9/11 were not "because" the US wanted air travel to be easy - it was the result of decades of foreign policy and other political aspects that aren't appropriate for discussion here. The terrorists didn't say "geewizz, we should totally punish America for making it easy to get around."

The US government then said some stuff about not changing because then the terrorists would win, then in the next breath put up a big ol' white flag and bent over.
 
tyler81190
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 36):
How exactly would one redesign LAX? Force AA, UA, DL to operate international flights from TBIT? Force all passengers connecting in from domestic flights to then transfer to TBIT? All so a few transit passengers that day don't have to clear immigration/secure a visa?

LAX would require much more work than some airports. I would also like to mention YYZ, only SOME airlines are able to use the in-transit facilities there. In YYZ if you are connecting AC/AA or BA etc you have to clear Canada customs. If you are connecting Star Alliance to Star alliance, you don't.

For example, DFW could seal one terminal for ITI, and only OneWorld airlines could use it... Or ORD T5 for star connections or oneworld. ATL could seal Terminal F for Skyteam and have a border crossing in the train tunnel. EWR could seal C-3 for ITI, or use B-3 like they currently do for some international arrivals (could include all Star).

For LAX, you technically COULD create 2 or 3 ITI areas, in T6 or 7 for Star, T5 (very unlikely given connections available for DL) or part of T4 (with a sealed connection to TBIT).

While I agree the costs would be huge, I would think it would open more possibilities for airlines to either offer more service because they can take more advantage of connections, or the airlines could use current routes are generate more revenue from connections previously handed over to other carriers.
 
mozart
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 30):
Sorry you feel that way but you are wrong. The USA is a constant target for terrorists and too bad if you have to be inconvenienced. People like to bash the USA and their security issues but lets not forget over 3,000 people were killed in a terrorist attack in the US because the government wanted to make it easy to travel and fly in the country. That has changed and it will not go back.

See, that's what I mean by paranoia. Mindlessly bellowing something about the US being a terrorist target justifying all kinds of things without even understanding what has been said or written or reflecting whether these measures make sense.

1) You say that I am "wrong". I am wrong about what? About AF routing the flights from Paris to Tahiti through the LAX? Check the timetable's, they do
2) Of course the US is a constant target for terrorists, I do not deny that. But so is the UK (you surely heard about all the terrorist attacks that have happened there, for instance London Underground), and so is France (you may know that France is in a war deploying its ground troops in Africa to fight Islamist terrorists; that makes them quite unliked in those circles). Nevertheless neither LHR nor CDG require intl-intl transfer pax to go through UK or French immigration. So what is different in the US?
3) How does security improve by making people that want to fly from Paris to Papeete on one flight number (possibly even one and the same plane) go through US immigration? US immigration checks whether someone can enter the US. But these transfer passengers do not want to enter the US, so why check whether they are allowed to immigrate? It doesn't make any sense. If the goal is to filter out people who could hijack an airliner or explode their socks on board: that is done on the ground in Paris, where people with explosives or weapons or knives are filtered out by security. If the goal is to prevent people from committing a terrorist attack on the ground in the US then this is paranoid, because passengers would be confined to the sterile area in the airport (so that's the only place where they *could* in theory commit their attack - not very interesting to blow up a waiting room in an airport) and they would need to do it with tools/material/explosives smuggled through security in Paris. Checking whether people have a visa or a valid ESTA as they reach the US with the intention to fly out two hours later will not change anything to that. It is illogical.

So it's not my opinion, but it's sheer logic of how passenger flows work: checking passports and visas of people on an international-international transfer is pointless, it does not increase security.

Ironic that even other countries with otherwise much stricter visa requirements allow passengers to connect intl-intl. without visa. Heck, you can even connect international in Saudi-Arabia!

Quoting DDR (Reply 30):
By all means, skip the US and transit in another country.

For Air France flight AF 76 CDG-PPT, what other intermediate stop would you suggest for that flight? LAX is spot-on on the direct route. So why/ how skip the US?

Quoting DDR (Reply 30):
Like others have said, the US doesn't even make sense for a logical transit point to most places. We can fly nonstop from Europe to South America.

Nobody said that it's technically impossible to fly nonstop to South America. The point is that to go from Europe to many places in the Caribbean, Central America and also South America a transfer in Miami opens many more possibilities in terms of coverage and schedules. It is enough to have planes capable of flying a route, it is also a matter of number of frequencies and schedules. As an example, I had to travel frequently to Grand Cayman from Europe. Technically no problem. But there is only one flight from London to GCM, which operates only four times a week. From MIA there are five flights a day, and there are plenty of flights from Europe to MIA, thus opening up many more connection possibilities.

Quoting DDR (Reply 30):

The US aviation market is so big that it does not need people to transit in the country. There is plenty of o&d traffic to support several airlines. Compared to a country like Finland, one small to medium size US airport sees more traffic in one day than Helsinki sees in one week. I just do not understand why people always feel the need to bash the U.S., this isn't a political forum.

Your line of argument doesn't work, because it's reverse. "There are no intl-intl passengers transiting the US, so why have the facilities" - the point is how many passengers there would be if the facilities existed.

There is no bashing of the US. It is a purely economic and business question. And you may have noticed that I did not call for all US international gateways to build sterile areas. I do agree that there isn't a compelling business case. But MIA and LAX could make sense.
 
OB1504
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:19 am

Quoting Hkg212 (Reply 6):
DFW already has ITI facilities in Terminal D, which are not being used. At least it is the only airport in the US (to my knowledge) that allows direct ITI baggage transfer, which is a big advantage and why I prefer DFW over any other airport for my trips to Latin America.

MIA also offers ITI baggage transfer for participating carriers.

Quoting yv773p (Reply 12):
The visa issue is not the problem, it is having to clear custom, rechecking your bag and go through security only to leave the US in an hour or so. I think the satellite E at MIA used to have ITI.

The former Concourse A, Concourse E, Concourse E satellite, and Concourse F all have ITI lounges now gathering dust.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 43):
There is no bashing of the US. It is a purely economic and business question. And you may have noticed that I did not call for all US international gateways to build sterile areas. I do agree that there isn't a compelling business case. But MIA and LAX could make sense.

The economic question to which I don't think we have a good answer is how many transit passengers sterile transit would gain the States, especially if--as is likely--it came along with a requirement for a "light" visa or that the passenger be admissible to the States. We know, I think, that some passengers already transit the States and that those passengers, like a lot of passengers who might transit if it were easier, likely are either from visa waiver countries or hold multi-entry US visas. I'm not convinced that adding sterile transit would result in a rush of passengers. Even today, I'd rather connect in an appropriately-staffed US airport (i.e. not MIA) than make some connections in London or Paris.

One other issue that I don't think has been addressed here is that many of the international connections that exist are to and from Canada and run more smoothly than a typical "in-transit" connection when leaving Canada, with no formalities required at all in the States.
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747megatop
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:11 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 43):
LAX could make sense.

LAX wouldn't make sense. Some reasons i can think of
1) It is not a major hub for any one single airline.
2) Very few connecting opportunities NZ, maybe QF connecting to BA flights, KE.
3) Geographically out of the way for Central America to Europe connections.

I think DFW/IAH/ATL make more sense than LAX for this simply because

1) Each of these are fortress hubs for their respective airlines (AA/UA/DL). Each airline has good international flights to Europe as well as Central America.
2) More geographically suited for Europe Connections from Central America. Asia connections are also not that out of the way from these hubs.

But like others have stated, is there a business case? Not sure about this.
 
777ER
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:21 am

Quoting aw70 (Reply 23):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):
NZ use a transit lounge for their NZ1/2 customers between AKL and LHR at LAX. The passengers clear some form of customs first before getting penned into a holding room.
What you are describing is at least not done every time. I was on NZ 2 two months ago, and on NZ 1 5 ago. In both cases, no such arrangement was in place.

I've never used the connection lounge at LAX with NZ1/2 services but I do know its ALWAYS used for passengers going to either LHR or AKL

Here is what NZ says on its web-site

Customers on these flights continuing on the same aircraft are no longer required to complete immigration processing in the arrivals hall. Instead, if baggage has been through-checked, customers will be separately processed by US Customs and Border Protection into a dedicated transit lounge where they will remain until re-boarding the aircraft.

Access to the Air New Zealand Lounge is only available to Business Premier customers who will need to complete fast tracked immigration processing and will then be processed through security to the Lounge. Other customers normally entitled to Lounge access including Star Alliance Gold members will remain in a premium transit area, however they are not able to gain access to the Air New Zealand Lounge when transiting in Los Angeles between Auckland and London Heathrow on NZ1 & NZ2.

Elite and Gold customers not flying in Business Premier will be able to access a premium transit area only.

Customers are still required to meet all entry requirements including having a current visa or ESTA where applicable.

Air New Zealand is committed to making travel through Los Angeles a seamless experience for its customers. Later this year the airline will relocate its Los Angeles airport operations to the newly refurbished Tom Bradley International Terminal which features 180,000 square feet of retail space and faster boarding and disembarking systems.

http://www.airnewzealand.co.nz/connecting-at-los-angeles

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 24):
How does KE do it on their Brazil to ICN service via LAX ?

I haven't a clue how KE would do it. Isn't there any information on the KE web-site?
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PHX Flyer
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:42 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Thread starter):
The other point would be to have better border control with passport checks on entry AND exit, would there be any worth to having this included?

At a true international transit terminal there is no need for either entry or exit control. Passengers arrive and connect without ever passing through the immigration checkpoint of the transit country.

As others have pointed out, there is very limited demand for international connections via the US. The only niche would be Europe-Caribbean, and even there are innumerable nonstop flights bypassing the US. Besides, the vast majority of affluent Europeans, who can afford travel to the Caribbean, would have no visa issues, if they chose to connect via a US hub.
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StTim
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RE: Will Our Airports Ever Be "in-transit" Capable?

Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:27 am

It is not so much the visa issues - it is the time and hassle of going through immigration and customs to never actually really enter the USA. I have waited in line at Miami for over two hours in the past and waits of about an hour are quite common place.

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