United Posts Hefty Q1 Loss

Jamake1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:45 am

$489 mil net loss before special items.

$609 mil inclusive of special items.

PRASM declined 2 percent in Q1.

Consolidated CASM up 1 percent y-o-y.

This compares to Q1 earnings by AA of $402 mil and by DL of $213 mil (net).

"Houston, we have a problem."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united...-first-quarter-2014-113000961.html

[Edited 2014-04-24 04:53:52]

[Edited 2014-04-24 05:24:31]

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:25 pm

Wow.....I'm actually speechless after looking at the DL and AA results.

bwwt · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:29 pm

Looking at AAs results, I have a few questions.
Has UA ever made a profit since the merger?
Before they officially merged into the same airline did they have similarly high profits as seen at AA?

Triple7Lr · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:29 pm

Ok WTH? How is United still posting these awful numbers? And how does Jeff still have a job?

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:32 pm

The earnings call will be good listening, get your popcorn ready.

The tone of the press release is unbelivable in comparison to the others in the industry. That reads like something out of the industry in 2002-2003, not 2014.

Jamake1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:36 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The earnings call will be good listening, get your popcorn ready.

I expect that analyst downgrades of UAL are forthcoming.

washingtonflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:38 pm

Wow. Numbers like these. There will be very loud calls for Smisek's head.

RyanairGuru · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:41 pm

That's Shareholder_Friendly

(sorry, couldn't resist)

FlyPNS1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The earnings call will be good listening, get your popcorn ready.

Indeed. I can see it now:

Analyst 1: Your revenue performance is trailing the industry.
Smisek: We've got 787's.
Analyst 2: Your cost performance is trailing the industry.
Smisek: C'mon guys we've got 787's.
Analyst 3: Your merger doesn't seem to be producing any benefits.
Smisek: 7-8-7.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:52 pm

The impact of weather events was a real impact to Q1 - UA is stating $200 M and DL is stating $90 M, which would be expected with the differences in network and hubsite locations that were impacted over the winter. That still doesn't explain or excuse the rest of their Q1 results.

panamair · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:56 pm

Quoting bwwt (Reply 2):
Has UA ever made a profit since the merger?

Yes, but when they just combined results (where UA and CO were still essentially operating as separate carriers in most areas). For example, in 2011, UACO reported about $1.3 billion of Net Profits excluding specials (3.5% margin) compared to Delta's $1.2 billion (+3.4% margin). Things started going wrong around 2012, where they reported for the full year a $589m Net Profit (excl specials) when DL came in at $1.6 billion.

commavia · Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:58 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
The impact of weather events was a real impact to Q1 - UA is stating $200 M and DL is stating $90 M, which would be expected with the differences in network and hubsite locations that were impacted over the winter. That still doesn't explain or excuse the rest of their Q1 results.

I don't really see how that's a realistic or reasonable justification for such a wide disparity - sounds more like an excuse to me.

All of the "big four" now have sufficiently nationwide, and sufficiently dispersed, networks that it seems unlikely that such huge and severe weather events as occurred in Q1 would really impact one all that disproportionately more or less than the others (with the possible exception of Southwest).

In this case - United has hubs in the Upper Midwest and the Northeast that were hard hit by weather, but of course, so does Delta, and so does AA (and for that matter, so does Southwest).

OB1504 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:01 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I don't really see how that's a realistic or reasonable justification for such a wide disparity - sounds more like an excuse to me.

All of the "big four" now have sufficiently nationwide, and sufficiently dispersed, networks that it seems unlikely that such huge and severe weather events as occurred in Q1 would really impact one all that disproportionately more or less than the others (with the possible exception of Southwest).

In this case - United has hubs in the Upper Midwest and the Northeast that were hard hit by weather, but of course, so does Delta, and so does AA (and for that matter, so does Southwest).

If UA allowed its operations to be affected that strongly by the weather these past few months, heads need to roll.

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:03 pm

Quoting bwwt (Reply 2):
Has UA ever made a profit since the merger?

Yes....they posted a profit last year and are expected to post a profit this year.

Historically, during years that UA makes money, they loose money during Q1 and make it Q2, Q3 with a slight profit to break-even during Q4.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
That's Shareholder_Friendly

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Actually UAL stock has been going up...if you invested in UA at the time of the merger you will have doubled your money as of today.....one of the reasons why Smisek and co are still at the helm.

Up until this point at least they have been very shareholder friendly....

OB1504 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:05 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 13):
Up until this point at least they have been very shareholder friendly....

So basically, invest in United and use the income to fly another carrier that's not such a mess.

washingtonflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:09 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
The impact of weather events was a real impact to Q1 - UA is stating $200 M and DL is stating $90 M, which would be expected with the differences in network and hubsite locations that were impacted over the winter. That still doesn't explain or excuse the rest of their Q1 results.

Polishing a turd....

AA/US have hubs at JFK, PHL, DCA, and ORD - more or less the same localities that UA/CO have their northeast hubs (sans CLE). So.......either there were snow bursts over Newark, Chantilly and Terminal 1 at ORD that weren't experienced in Jamaica Bay, Arlington, or Terminal 3 at ORD, or another carrier was simply better at dealing with it....

wedgetail737 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:12 pm

Maybe UA will get a Federal Bailout Package.

MaverickM11 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:18 pm

You can read all the same arguments over and over again here

United Financial Under Performance Continues (by LAXintl Apr 22 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
The impact of weather events was a real impact to Q1 - UA is stating $200 M and DL is stating $90 M, which would be expected with the differences in network and hubsite locations that were impacted over the winter.

...which should artificially constrict capacity in a weak quarter, hence an improvement in PRASM, which you saw at all other carriers. It magically had the opposite effect on UA.

phileet92 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:20 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 15):

While these results are quite upsetting, I think it's important to consider the size of hubs when talking about winter storm impacts across carriers. ORD is either te #1 or 2 largest hub in UA's network and EWR ops are much larger than AA and DL's respective hubs at JFK. So the way I see it, DL and AA would feel a greater impact of old man winter's hammer if ATL and DFW were located in the North...

It's unfortunate and frustrating; hopefully UA can get their act together soon.

washingtonflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:22 pm

True, but US has quite the operation right down the road at PHL......It too got tagged.

Triple7Lr · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:24 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 13):
Actually UAL stock has been going up...if you invested in UA at the time of the merger you will have doubled your money as of today.....one of the reasons why Smisek and co are still at the helm.

Up until this point at least they have been very shareholder friendly....

Let's be honest UAL's stocking is being carried by its industry peers.

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 14):
So basically, invest in United and use the income to fly another carrier that's not such a mess.

UA is no where near as much of a mess as is made out on here....way too much hysterics and hype.

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 20):
Let's be honest UAL's stocking is being carried by its industry peers.

To some extent that is true in any industry but at the end of the day the individual company (in this case UA) is ultimately responsible for their own stock performance.

IAHWorldflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting phileet92 (Reply 18):
ORD is either te #1 or 2 largest hub in UA's network and EWR ops are much larger than AA and DL's respective hubs at JFK.

Not to pick on you ( Smisek and co. are the ones with the burden), but DL's second largest hub is at DTW, which saw every snowstorm that passed over ORD. They also have a large operation at MSP, also in the same weather region. And the US portion of AA has significant operations up and down the Eastern Seaboard from BOS through LGA, PHL, DCA, all the way to CLT. Storms that affected EWR also affected US operations.
The burden the IRROPS due to weather caused was because UA is the world leader in RJ operations, and those jungle jets cancelled flights at the first snowflake. With a larger number of mainline jets plying northern routes, DL and AA/US were able to get more planes off the ground, and also take care of passengers whose flights were cancelled quicker by shifting them onto other flights quicker.
On a personal note, I had an RJ flight cancel in February 8 hours before scheduled departure ( through an email), but was unable to reschedule the trip because the first available seat was something like 52 hours later, and would put me at my destination about 6 hours before I was due to depart! Agents were unable or unwilling to let me move the trip forward a few days without incurring change fee penalties, so I just got the money back and flew another carrier.

PMUA787 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:46 pm

The over reliance on RJ lift domestically can't be helping the bottom line either.

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:17 pm

Quoting PMUA787 (Reply 23):
The over reliance on RJ lift domestically can't be helping the bottom line either.

No I don't think it's helping either...but there will be large numbers of RJs leaving the fleet over the next few years (some that are replaced by the E175s and some that are simply retired.) Will see if that will help....

FlyingSicilian · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:22 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Thread starter):
"Houston, we have a problem."

Chicago, you have a problem.... it is called Smisek

PMUA787 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:29 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 24):
.but there will be large numbers of RJs leaving the fleet over the next few years

The sooner the better especially the 145's. I hear that some of the 145's may end up going overseas to place like Russia to replace older birds like the YAK-40.

777ord · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 5):
I expect that analyst downgrades of UAL are forthcoming.

Have you looked at the internal job postings? yeesh!!

Quoting United1 (Reply 13):
Actually UAL stock has been going up...if you invested in UA at the time of the merger you will have doubled your money as of today.....one of the reasons why Smisek and co are still at the helm.

Yea, and that's why pre-merger UAL had 1 out of 8 profitable years vs. CO's 2 of 8. While still not amazing, it's certainly better... People either need to get over themselves and what "was" and now work and live in the what "is"... If corporate wants me to do ABC.. I'll do it. I do do it. If I had a nickle for every time I heard, "how we used to do xxxxx...." I'd be retired by now.

FriendlySkies · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 24):
No I don't think it's helping either...but there will be large numbers of RJs leaving the fleet over the next few years (some that are replaced by the E175s and some that are simply retired.) Will see if that will help....

I'm one of the bigger UA supporters on this board, but lets be honest here. It's 3+ years since the merger, and this airline has no direction to speak of. Stagnation and new seat covers does not represent a coherent business strategy, and they have made next to no progress in unifying the remaining labor groups. You can point fingers at the unions all you want, but a strong corporate leadership MAKES THINGS HAPPEN.

History doesn't matter, this airline is NOT the old United or Continental. If their peers, who as others have said have nearly equally diversified and geographically centered networks, are posting huge gains, and UA cannot even break even, there is something fundamentally broken in the c-suite, plain and simple. There is really no reason an airline of this size and with these assets should not be printing money in this market, except for poor leadership and planning.

Stock is already down 6.5%, lets hope it drops more to finally push the BoD to do something about this mess.

Rdh3e · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 5):
I expect that analyst downgrades of UAL are forthcoming.

Consensus estimates from the analysts were ($488M), actual was ($489M) I think analyst seems to be spot on in knowing what UAL is worth. There won't be a downgrade.

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:42 pm

Listing to the conference call now sounds like UA is planning on re-banking DEN and IAH....

AVENSAB727 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 30):

What does re-banking mean?

tlecam · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:48 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 31):
What does re-banking mean?

Instead of a "rolling hub" where flights take off through out the day, banks are consolidated groupings of flights - e.g. - the morning bank (ex: 5:30AM - 8AM) and the early evening bank (4:00PM -7:00PM).

jetblastdubai · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:48 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 31):
What does re-banking mean?

It means rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

IAHWorldflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 31):
What does re-banking mean?

It means instead of having a "rolling" hub, you schedule incoming and outgoing flights in waves, such that, say, many flights from the east arrive at 10am, and feed into a large number of flights going west bound at 11am. Then you might have another wave just like that a couple hours later.

catiii · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting phileet92 (Reply 18):
ORD is either te #1 or 2 largest hub in UA's network

'

Ok, but AA is in ORD too, and DL is in MSP and DTW, in the same region.

Quoting phileet92 (Reply 18):
EWR ops are much larger than AA and DL's respective hubs at JFK

But don 't forget DL's ops at LGA too. Combined with JFK it's on par with UA.

Quoting phileet92 (Reply 18):
So the way I see it, DL and AA would feel a greater impact of old man winter's hammer if ATL and DFW were located in the North...

ATL had the worst winter weather in a generation this year.

Quoting United1 (Reply 21):
UA is no where near as much of a mess as is made out on here....way too much hysterics and hype.

I tend to agree flying them as much as I do, but I fly DL on an equal basis (both out of NYC) and DL's operation is just head and shoulders above UA's, from mainline through to the regionals. And the DL earnings reflect that.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 27):
Have you looked at the internal job postings? yeesh!!

What's going on? A lot of people leaving?

777ord · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 35):
Quoting 777ord (Reply 27):
Have you looked at the internal job postings? yeesh!!

What's going on? A lot of people leaving?

If not leaving, then moving within the company. But the majority of postings are IT and $$$.

Quoting United1 (Reply 30):
Listing to the conference call now sounds like UA is planning on re-banking DEN and IAH....

Will the recorded one be posted soon? I couldn't get the dial-in info

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 28):
I'm one of the bigger UA supporters on this board, but lets be honest here. It's 3+ years since the merger, and this airline has no direction to speak of. Stagnation and new seat covers does not represent a coherent business strategy, and they have made next to no progress in unifying the remaining labor groups. You can point fingers at the unions all you want, but a strong corporate leadership MAKES THINGS HAPPEN.

Stock is already down 6.5%, lets hope it drops more to finally push the BoD to do something about this mess.

Agreed. We need change, and we need a leader who can say no in the face of a Union, or NO to an absurd idea etc....

ScottB · Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting phileet92 (Reply 18):
So the way I see it, DL and AA would feel a greater impact of old man winter's hammer if ATL and DFW were located in the North...

ATL actually saw a significant impact from this winter's storms as well; operations there were virtually halted at least twice due to winter weather conditions.

Quoting phileet92 (Reply 18):
ORD is either te #1 or 2 largest hub in UA's network and EWR ops are much larger than AA and DL's respective hubs at JFK.

But DL's operations at JFK & LGA together are roughly the same size as UA's at EWR. And when it was 10 below at ORD, it was 30 below at MSP.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
which should artificially constrict capacity in a weak quarter, hence an improvement in PRASM, which you saw at all other carriers. It magically had the opposite effect on UA.

...and the numbers the company reported by geography actually tell a different story. Domestic PRASM was actually up 1.4% year-over-year. The international business dragged the company down in 1Q. Pacific PRASM was down 6.3%, Atlantic PRASM was down 3.4%, and Latin America PRASM was down 1.7%. On the whole, international system PRASM was down 4.1%.

Atlantic and Pacific seats were up and load factors were down in both. The Pacific was the worst performer of the bunch and the least likely to be affected by the winter weather as the SFO gateway did not experience the "Polar Vortex."

Quoting Jamake1 (Thread starter):
"Houston, we have a problem."

More like, "Chicago, we have a problem...

avi8 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:03 pm

The airline has so much potential and it is sad to see it slowly going down. I fly UA a lot, and I do agree with what someone said earlier about people bringing UA's flaws out of proportion. Yes, the numbers are red, but I do believe that things will get better at UA. All the mistakes have been made, and hopefully the UA management has learned from them and can now start climbing uphill.

This isn't game over.

Avi8

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 34):
Quoting AVENSAB727 (Reply 31):
What does re-banking mean?

It means instead of having a "rolling" hub, you schedule incoming and outgoing flights in waves, such that, say, many flights from the east arrive at 10am, and feed into a large number of flights going west bound at 11am. Then you might have another wave just like that a couple hours later.

Which is a mroe traditional way to operate a hub it helps with revenue but does cut down on fleet efficiency.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 36):
Quoting United1 (Reply 30):
Listing to the conference call now sounds like UA is planning on re-banking DEN and IAH....

Will the recorded one be posted soon? I couldn't get the dial-in info

Webcast...ual.com....they are doing Q/A now.

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 36):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 28):
I'm one of the bigger UA supporters on this board, but lets be honest here. It's 3+ years since the merger, and this airline has no direction to speak of. Stagnation and new seat covers does not represent a coherent business strategy, and they have made next to no progress in unifying the remaining labor groups. You can point fingers at the unions all you want, but a strong corporate leadership MAKES THINGS HAPPEN.

Stock is already down 6.5%, lets hope it drops more to finally push the BoD to do something about this mess.

Agreed. We need change, and we need a leader who can say no in the face of a Union, or NO to an absurd idea etc....

I do actually agree that its time for a management shakeup....simply put I think that the current management team has brought UA as far as they can with the merger.

Quoting catiii (Reply 35):
Quoting United1 (Reply 21):
UA is no where near as much of a mess as is made out on here....way too much hysterics and hype.

I tend to agree flying them as much as I do, but I fly DL on an equal basis (both out of NYC) and DL's operation is just head and shoulders above UA's, from mainline through to the regionals. And the DL earnings reflect that.

UA is a gigantic construction zone right now...DL is not...its not much fun to fly on an airline under construction but they do have to go through it.

LAXintl · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:10 pm

Best quote I have seen so far about these earnings.

From Holly Hegeman of Plane Business.

United says they "lagged on revenue...."?? That's like saying the Titanic lagged on buoyancy. Even more damning given AA and DL 1Q performance.

=

hiflyeras · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 30):
Listing to the conference call now sounds like UA is planning on re-banking DEN and IAH....

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 33):
It means rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

That's their solution? DEN? UA management seems to have their heads up each other's arses. Time's running out to get this ship in order...DL and AA are coming with guns blazing for UA's business and all they can do is re-time their DEN and IAH flights? Pitiful.

washingtonflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:12 pm

Gawd, is Holly still around?

catiii · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 40):
UA is a gigantic construction zone right now...DL is not...its not much fun to fly on an airline under construction but they do have to go through it.

Fair point, but where was DL at this point in their merger? They had it much more together.

MaverickM11 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 37):
...and the numbers the company reported by geography actually tell a different story. Domestic PRASM was actually up 1.4% year-over-year.

AA's was up by 6%, DL's by 7+%, and they both increased domestic capacity, against UA's 1+% decrease.

[Edited 2014-04-24 08:18:47]

eastern747 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:19 pm

This means that at certain times during the day, the concourses are full of passengers going in many different directions. At other times you shoot off a gun, Please, an old saying, and not hit anyone. Of course the problem is during the busy hours, it's all hands on deck, everybody to their stations, and this is not a drill. Lots of activity on the ramp, fueling, catering, loading passenger, off loading passengers, etc. It's almost like a battle.

United1 · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 42):
That's their solution? DEN? UA management seems to have their heads up each other's arses. Time's running out to get this ship in order...DL and AA are coming with guns blazing for UA's business and all they can do is re-time their DEN and IAH flights? Pitiful.

Not all they are doing at all...and extremely overdramatic comment by you.

Quoting catiii (Reply 44):
Fair point, but where was DL at this point in their merger? They had it much more together.

In some ways ahead and in some ways not so much...DL slapped a lot of lipstick onto a pig and made it look good they have only in the past year or so actually started turning their on board product structurally into a good one. UA is skipping the lipstick part...ooops.

washingtonflyer · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:22 pm

There have been a lot of studies at the MBA and beyond level into the operations at hubs. Drives business types nuts. Banked hubs maximize connections but require great amounts of resources and results in massive amounts of down time (gates go empty, staff is not stretched, etc). Rolling hubs obviously seek to flatten out the demand spikes somewhat but the result is some bad connection opportunities for passengers.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting IAHWorldflyer (Reply 22):
Not to pick on you ( Smisek and co. are the ones with the burden), but DL's second largest hub is at DTW, which saw every snowstorm that passed over ORD. They also have a large operation at MSP, also in the same weather region. And the US portion of AA has significant operations up and down the Eastern Seaboard from BOS through LGA, PHL, DCA, all the way to CLT. Storms that affected EWR also affected US operations.

Very true, and in DL's case DTW & MSP are more able to handle weather because of ample airfield and airspace capacity. Yes, they too cancel RJs ops but still managed on many poor weather days to keep core mainline and international operations running and not grind to a halt at either hub.

Quoting United1 (Reply 47):
In some ways ahead and in some ways not so much...DL slapped a lot of lipstick onto a pig and made it look good they have only in the past year or so actually started turning their on board product structurally into a good one. UA is skipping the lipstick part...ooops.

There is far greater concerns that onboard product that drive revenue. Operational disipline, pricing/revenue management, and capacity deployment are far greater drivers that on-board product differentiators.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net