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mariner
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 47):
As far as PGD and G4 goes, it's not going ever be successful. For these reasons: Its low frequency, and Long Islander's want to be able to go and come back when they want, otherwise they don't go, also, its Punta Gorda, FL, and some won't connect the dots with RSW area so that eliminates a lot. And finally, its not a "name brand", so it makes them more hesitant.

I've no idea if ISP-PGD will eventually work, but almost everything that Allegiant does goes against what you say.

Low frequency is a condition of the airline - 4 x weekly is a lot for Allegiant. I don't think it flies daily anywhere, or to very few places, and still people - generally - flock to 'em. Look at their load factors.

Yes, there have a few routes that have failed, but not many in the great scheme of things.

It's PGD? Allegiant is marketing it as Fort Myers area, and the savvy travelling public, the ones looking for low fares, are well used to "area."

If I recall correctly, Southwest used to market ISP as "New York area" - LOL.

Similarly, Frontier is starting TTN-UST this week - a relatively unknown airport to a completely unknown airport - and yet the first few flights are full. Frontier suggests it is "Jacksonville area" - but they could as well have said "Daytona Beach area."

And for the people who know what the brand is, Allegiant is a name brand, and, given the money Allegiant makes, there are a lot of them.

Now, Long Island - ISP - may be an exception to all this, ISP-PGD may well be a total turkey, but it will be an exception that proves the rule.

mariner

[Edited 2014-04-27 14:33:01]
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:01 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):

Low frequency is a condition of the airline - 4 x weekly is a lot for Allegiant. I don't think it flies daily anywhere, or to very few places, and still people - generally - flock to 'em. Look at their load factors.

Indeed, I think their only daily market is BLI-LAS.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
Similarly, Frontier is starting TTN-UST this week - a relatively unknown airport to a completely unknown airport - and yet the first few flights are full. Frontier suggests it is "Jacksonville area" - but they could as well have said "Daytona Beach area."

Or they could have simply said St. Augustine, that being a pretty well-known location.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 52):
Or they could have simply said St. Augustine, that being a pretty well-known location.

Sure, they sold St. Augustine, which is presumably why the planes are full.   

But few knew it has air service, or even an airport, because it hasn't had any for several years and it doesn't cost anything more to establish it in people's minds. It may even draw some people from/to Jacksonville, or environs.

Every little helps at an unknown or unused airport.

Same with TTN. They've had to sell the airport as much as the airline, because there hasn't been air service at TTN for some time and people didn't make the association.

And not everyone knows their geography as well as they should. Why did Southwest call Oakland "San Francisco area" before they flew to SFO?

mariner

[Edited 2014-04-27 21:55:05]
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
I've no idea if ISP-PGD will eventually work, but almost everything that Allegiant does goes against what you say.

I never said anything Allegiant was doing is wrong, I was just saying their whole mantra is a tough sell to Long Islanders... In fact, I like G4's idea, and they have proved it successful, however I was just stating this area really isn't Allegiant-country. We have too many options and are too used to driving to the big 3 to get basically anywhere that G4 can't get high yields with the product they're offering.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
And for the people who know what the brand is, Allegiant is a name brand, and, given the money Allegiant makes, there are a lot of them.

Again, never basing Allegiant, just that to the LI area, people (most) have never heard of them. You and I may be the exception, but not most of long island.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
ISP-PGD may well be a total turkey, but it will be an exception that proves the rule.

It would be an exception, and judging by their 58 dollar subpar loads, ISP-PGD is a turkey. If they did ISP-LAS, you may just have something, but with them being scared out of PGB-LAS it's hard to believe they will start such a route.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 49):
I don't see them loaded yet. Where did you see the upguages? (I don't doubt you, I'm just wondering where to look)

Google flights says Canadair RJ, and Air Wisconsin. Also on their site, if you do a fake booking, you'll see seat maps for the CRJ200. Interesting if you ask me....

Quoting mariner (Reply 53):
Quoting mariner (Reply 53):
Sure, they sold St. Augustine, which is presumably why the planes are full.

Not just St. Augustine, with a population of 15,000.... They said Jacksonville/St. Augustine area. I should mention the first few weeks are extremely low yields (even with the high load factors) because of their discount of fares earlier this year (with its' introduction) and I should add that lots of the fares are around 67 dollars one week into service. I bet it won't last at that frequency for long. I may be wrong but it seems weird. And with their new fees, the "low fares" can be even lower yielding if not producing enough ancillary revenue...
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 54):
Not just St. Augustine, with a population of 15,000.... They said Jacksonville/St. Augustine area.

Um - yes. I said that.

And - just for the record - while the city itself has a population of 15,000, the St Augustine Urban Area, which includes a bit of southern of Jacksonville and the very north of Daytona Beach, has a population of 69,173.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 54):
I should mention the first few weeks are extremely low yields (even with the high load factors) because of their discount of fares earlier this year (with its' introduction) and I should add that lots of the fares are around 67 dollars one week into service. I bet it won't last at that frequency for long. I may be wrong but it seems weird. And with their new fees, the "low fares" can be even lower yielding if not producing enough ancillary revenue...

First few weeks TTN-ATL and TTN-MDW had low fares, too, and some low loads. Not anymore and both are up to daily service. TTN-RDU also had low fares, and originally scheduled at 6 x weekly, they had to drop a midweek frequency until traffic built. Now it is up to daily.

I don't know what will happen at UST - the surprise is that the planes are full - but there are rumours that Frontier will be adding another route to UST shortly.

 

mariner

[Edited 2014-04-28 15:58:39]
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 47):
As far as PGD and G4 goes, it's not going ever be successful.

It seems too early to say that. But we'll know pretty soon (within a year, certainly) — G4 is not the sort of airline to give something a long time to start working.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
I've no idea if ISP-PGD will eventually work, but almost everything that Allegiant does goes against what you say.

This is true, but it's not like everything G4 touches turns to gold, either. One of the things that makes G4 different from a lot of other airlines (though other airlines are becoming more and more like this) is that it is very willing to try stuff and if it doesn't work, quit after a rather short time.

The thing about G4 is that it tends to try a lot of things other airlines would not try, and often it is successful, and when it isn't it's not a big deal because it leaves quickly. ISP-PGD twice a week is definitely something most other airlines would not try.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 48):
Most of the area around the airport is a commercial and industrial zone. It may not have been centrally planned, but for the most part it doesn't look bad and serves its purpose

I'm not talking about how it looks. I'm talking about things like the layout of the roadways, which is absurdly bad. This actually applies mostly to the train station, not the airport — other than that the airport is next to a train station that it's not really linked to, because the terminal is on the south side of the airport, not the north side.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:34 am

I am surprised B6 hasn't tried to get in there and wonder if anybody has any context for why they haven't. WN didn't scare them away from BDL and that seems to be working (just saw they are adding BDL-DCA), and they seem to be making other small airports (SWF, HPN) work on those routes despite being close to the their bigger NY operations.

Short of that, nobody is doing SJU or anywhere else in Puerto Rico. Didn't KW fly to SJU, PSE and BQN for quite a while? B6 already has facilities at the other end, maybe this could work at least in the winter.

[Edited 2014-04-28 17:47:42]
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 56):
I'm not talking about how it looks. I'm talking about things like the layout of the roadways, which is absurdly bad. This actually applies mostly to the train station, not the airport — other than that the airport is next to a train station that it's not really linked to, because the terminal is on the south side of the airport, not the north side.

That's true. Although given the history of the train station, it's not terribly surprising. Before the late 1980's Ronkonkoma station had been a relatively minor station as most Suffolk County commuters used the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines. Extending electrification to Ronkonkoma in 1987 changed absolutely everything. Huge numbers of riders began flocking to the station, turning it into the wildly overcrowded madhouse it's been ever since. Ridership on the Montauk and Port Jefferson lines, which remained diesel lines, dropped way off.
What all this means is that when the town of Islip was developing ISP for commercial service in the 1960's and 1970's, easy access to Ronkonkoma station was pretty much irrelevant.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
Similarly, Frontier is starting TTN-UST this week - a relatively unknown airport to a completely unknown airport - and yet the first few flights are full. Frontier suggests it is "Jacksonville area" - but they could as well have said "Daytona Beach area."

I remember SkyBus marketing it as Jacksonville/Daytona Beach. I really didn't see this coming, especially since Frontier used to fly DEN-JAX.

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
If I recall correctly, Southwest used to market ISP as "New York area" - LOL.

They still do. If you type in "New York" on the website, LGA, EWR and ISP come up.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:00 am

MesaFlyGuy, did you see the upguages for May? Any ideas? Some days it's once a day, others it's twice.

Quoting varsity (Reply 57):

I am surprised B6 hasn't tried to get in there and wonder if anybody has any context for why they haven't.

Yeah, I'm surprised and I'm not. B6 is typically lazy (post-Neeleman). They are sitting ducks (mostly) waiting for things to happen. If they don't have to expand or don't see a perfect opportunity (such as DCA, or PIT depending on how you see it), they won't get off their tush and send planes to a destination. And honestly, I can't disagree with them. However, now with ALB additions, it's possible, but, ehh, I'd give it a few years. And for my sake (and my ISP-dreams), let's keep them away...  
Quoting PROSA (Reply 58):
What all this means is that when the town of Islip was developing ISP for commercial service in the 1960's and 1970's, easy access to Ronkonkoma station was pretty much irrelevant.

True, but remember, Islip and Long Island are notorious for bad planning. However, I see that it wasn't much of a big deal. And I heard that they did that to keep from getting city-folk, heresy, but would probably make sense.

Quoting varsity (Reply 57):
Short of that, nobody is doing SJU or anywhere else in Puerto Rico. Didn't KW fly to SJU, PSE and BQN for quite a while? B6 already has facilities at the other end, maybe this could work at least in the winter.

If they had a customs facility, SJU would be my first flight idea. With the heavy amount spanish in the suffolk county area, plus if the price is right they could leak passengers-in from the metro area. That is the end goal where an airline would make the most money. An new airline like if SX or NK started now and had barely any access to NYC, they could go low-cost crazy and pull in a lot of NYC traffic.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:32 am

Quoting PROSA (Reply 58):
What all this means is that when the town of Islip was developing ISP for commercial service in the 1960's and 1970's, easy access to Ronkonkoma station was pretty much irrelevant.

Great Post! Nice history thrown in there!

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 60):

If they had a customs facility, SJU would be my first flight idea. With the heavy amount spanish in the suffolk county area, plus if the price is right they could leak passengers-in from the metro area.

SJU is America! No need for a customs facility. I also don't think the Latin population in Suffolk is Puerto Rican exclusively or even in a majority
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:39 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
I also don't think the Latin population in Suffolk is Puerto Rican exclusively or even in a majority

No customs needed, and there was service to BQN, PSE and SJU in the past. But to your point, maybe SDQ would sell more seats. I was pretty surprised when B6 cut back EWR-FLL and added a place in the D.R. that I never heard of, but then I wasn't.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):
SJU is America! No need for a customs facility. I also don't think the Latin population in Suffolk is Puerto Rican exclusively or even in a majority

Oh yea! I forgot about that! So they need no customs facility? It's like a domestic flight? And maybe that is so, but I still think there is a good percentage of Puerto Ricans. And if not, a lot of rich folks who want to vacation there.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 61):

Quoting PROSA (Reply 58):
What all this means is that when the town of Islip was developing ISP for commercial service in the 1960's and 1970's, easy access to Ronkonkoma station was pretty much irrelevant.

Great Post! Nice history thrown in there!

I agree, that was a nice touch of history.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting varsity (Reply 62):
I was pretty surprised when B6 cut back EWR-FLL and added a place in the D.R. that I never heard of, but then I wasn't.

Some of JetBlue's work to the Caribbean and Mexico is done in association with Apple Vacations, meaning that Apple buys quite large blocks of seats. In some cases, Apple buys the majority of the flight, leaving a minority percentage for JetBlue to sell.

It takes a deal of risk out of the routes. Here is the JetBlue/Apple schedule for JFK:

http://www.applevacations.com/flight-schedule/jfk-new_york/

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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting varsity (Reply 62):

SDQ would DEFINITELY sell more seats. In my area (Lindenhurst, Babylon--the South shore), there is an overwhelming Dominican population. This is also evidenced by the nearly 20 daily flights to the D.R. from JFK every day.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 60):

Now I see them, but only a few non-consecutive days throughout May, so I don't think it's a long-term thing.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:53 am

I don't see why UA can't run an express to IAD or ORD 2 times a day, sort of what they do in HPN. *A used to fly out of ISP with US, so adding a couple of RJs to return *A to ISP wouldn't be asking much...Only other thing besides B6 is possibly WS or AC running a RJ from YYZ for Hamptons traffic once a day, since you can preclear there...but thats unlikely.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:16 pm

Just wondering if a 319 could make it ISP-LAS from a 7000' rwy without penalty?
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 67):

Most definitely. US Airways ran a319s on LGA-PHX on a319s with no issues.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 65):
SDQ would DEFINITELY sell more seats. In my area (Lindenhurst, Babylon--the South shore), there is an overwhelming Dominican population. This is also evidenced by the nearly 20 daily flights to the D.R. from JFK every day.

Further out in Suffolk the Spanish-speaking population is heavily Mexican and Salvadoran. I doubt that flights from ISP to either country (and where in Mexico?) would be practical.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 69):
Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 65):SDQ would DEFINITELY sell more seats. In my area (Lindenhurst, Babylon--the South shore), there is an overwhelming Dominican population. This is also evidenced by the nearly 20 daily flights to the D.R. from JFK every day.
Further out in Suffolk the Spanish-speaking population is heavily Mexican and Salvadoran. I doubt that flights from ISP to either country (and where in Mexico?) would be practical.

I'm not saying that they'd be practical, just that SDQ would sell more seats than SJU.  
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:48 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 68):
Most definitely. US Airways ran a319s on LGA-PHX on a319s with no issues.

It begs the question, what about a transcon?   I think it would do well to LAX, or SFO, or SEA....

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 70):

Quoting PROSA (Reply 69):
Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 65):SDQ would DEFINITELY sell more seats. In my area (Lindenhurst, Babylon--the South shore), there is an overwhelming Dominican population. This is also evidenced by the nearly 20 daily flights to the D.R. from JFK every day.
Further out in Suffolk the Spanish-speaking population is heavily Mexican and Salvadoran. I doubt that flights from ISP to either country (and where in Mexico?) would be practical.

I'm not saying that they'd be practical, just that SDQ would sell more seats than SJU.  

I don't know if a few towns with a large "base" there would account for most traffic. It would mostly be tourism, and with tourism SJU would sell wayyy more seats. Just my thought. Plus, their are a lot of Puerto Ricans too on long island.

I forgot whether the EMB's are ETOPS capable? Maybe send a one E190 to SDQ, and one to SJU :P . Oh, the imagination works wonders....
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:14 am

Quoting varsity (Reply 57):
I am surprised B6 hasn't tried to get in there and wonder if anybody has any context for why they haven't.

It may seem odd that B6, which otherwise seems to want to play in just about every NYC-Florida market, is willing to cede ISP to WN. But note that B6 has no competition on the routes it flies from HPN and SWF. From ISP, most of the routes it would want to fly (FLL/PBI/MCO/TPA) have WN already there. ISP is not exactly a very large market and I'm not sure if B6 would want to be competing for that. Nor am I sure that it would be taking more customers from WN than it would be from its own flights at other airports.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 58):
Before the late 1980's Ronkonkoma station had been a relatively minor station as most Suffolk County commuters used the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines. Extending electrification to Ronkonkoma in 1987 changed absolutely everything. Huge numbers of riders began flocking to the station, turning it into the wildly overcrowded madhouse it's been ever since.

All that is certainly true, but still, it's not like it's not like it isn't something that could have been predicted and planned for. But it wasn't, so the place has been a mess for the last 26 years, and probably will remain so for a very long time to come.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 58):
What all this means is that when the town of Islip was developing ISP for commercial service in the 1960's and 1970's, easy access to Ronkonkoma station was pretty much irrelevant.

Sure. There's no reason it would have been connected to the station then. But again, it's not like these things can't ever change. It's been next to a relatively busy rail station for 26 years and no one has really done much to take advantage of that and again probably won't for a very long time, if ever.

Quoting joelfreak (Reply 66):
I don't see why UA can't run an express to IAD or ORD 2 times a day, sort of what they do in HPN.

Why would it?

HPN is a different market.

Quoting joelfreak (Reply 66):
a RJ from YYZ for Hamptons traffic once a day

Hamptons traffic?!?!
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:28 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 72):
ISP is not exactly a very large market and I'm not sure if B6 would want to be competing for that. Nor am I sure that it would be taking more customers from WN than it would be from its own flights at other airports.

Agreed and when I saw what WN was doing there it made sense that B6 is not in there doing Fla., but nobody is doing some of the other places they're enjoying success (SJU, SDQ, as pointed out) and if they looked at the home zip codes of customers for some of the other routes they run at the somewhat maxed-out JFK, they might see other opportunities. Of course, right now they're not exactly trying to figure out what to do with all these extra aircraft (maybe that's not true with E190? I don't know) but as/if they continue to grow it will be interesting to see if they tap this market.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:23 pm

Why is HPN SO different? They are both suburbs of NYC, and they both have people with money who would like to avoid LGA/JFK, and ESPECIALLY EWR. If you think UA is gaining marketshare on LI by hubbing EWR, let me introduce you to most ALL of Long Island who considers Newark to be in another country! A couple feeder flights to IAD/ORD would allow *A to continue to service the market. It wouldn't grab NY-FLA traffic, but it can grab the LI businessman who needs to go to places like MSP and MCI, as they most likely would have connected anyhow.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 72):
Why would it?

HPN is a different market.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:27 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
Hamptons traffic?!?!

The east end of Long Island DOES have a reputation. There are people who want to go there, and there is no reason why one flight a day from YYZ may not do well.
 
prosa
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 72):
Quoting PROSA (Reply 58):
Before the late 1980's Ronkonkoma station had been a relatively minor station as most Suffolk County commuters used the Port Jefferson and Montauk lines. Extending electrification to Ronkonkoma in 1987 changed absolutely everything. Huge numbers of riders began flocking to the station, turning it into the wildly overcrowded madhouse it's been ever since.

All that is certainly true, but still, it's not like it's not like it isn't something that could have been predicted and planned for. But it wasn't, so the place has been a mess for the last 26 years, and probably will remain so for a very long time to come.

Actually, not. While LIRR officials knew that electrification would increase ridership on the Ronkonkoma line, and especially at Ronkonkoma station, they were taken very much by surprise at just how enormous a change came about. In particular, they did not realize just how much Montauk Line ridership would plummet.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 12:02 am

Will ISP be allowed to go to a 24hour operation.

Quoting JFKL1011 (Reply 10):
God I love ISP. For the convenience its worth the connection to get you essentially anywhere in the continental 48. But for countless reasons, its a tough sell. Most of Nassau county leans towards JFK and LGA so the market is slim. The transit options to ISP are terrible. Its just too far from the major market of NYC.

Most folks I have spoken to do not want to drive out to ISP for a flight they much rather use JFK, EWR, or LGA cause of the convenience even if the price is better in ISP.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 38):

Quoting daviation (Reply 32):
It's incredible when you think of the public transport options at CDG and LHR, just two examples of airports I've been to in the last few years. It's disgraceful for a major city, in fact, THE major city of the United States.

If JFK compares unfavorably to CDG and LHR then we are really in trouble. Although both have improved (especially LHR), I wouldn't necessarily call either of those airports worthy of their cities either.

Then again, at least in the west, the greatest cities do not tend to have the best airports. JFK, LAX, CDG, LHR...

I have flown out of these airports and while they are not the best I will say that they have better connectivity with public transport than JFK and LAX.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 77):
Most folks I have spoken to do not want to drive out to ISP for a flight they much rather use JFK, EWR, or LGA cause of the convenience even if the price is better in ISP.

I guess if they're going somewhere with a nonstop out of the big three I can see their logic, but are they closer to ISP than they are to the big three? If so, then I don't see what makes ISP less convenient.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 78):
I guess if they're going somewhere with a nonstop out of the big three I can see their logic, but are they closer to ISP than they are to the big three? If so, then I don't see what makes ISP less convenient.

Before I moved to CLT a couple of years ago, I lived in northern Nassau County - based on GPS routing, it was the same distance - within one mile - from my house to JFK, LGA, or ISP. I would fly from ISP whenever I could, including a couple of years when I was making semi-regular business trips to Chicago. By far, ISP was more convenient than JFK or LGA, and as mentioned up thread, EWR might as well be in a different country, I would never have considered flying from there.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 3:52 am

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 79):
Before I moved to CLT a couple of years ago, I lived in northern Nassau County - based on GPS routing, it was the same distance - within one mile - from my house to JFK, LGA, or ISP. I would fly from ISP whenever I could, including a couple of years when I was making semi-regular business trips to Chicago. By far, ISP was more convenient than JFK or LGA, and as mentioned up thread, EWR might as well be in a different country, I would never have considered flying from there.

Exactly, and that is the feeling of most of Long Islanders, and the idea would be to put the idea in one's head that ISP was a more "humane" airport, then an airline may have a winning combination. I only broke down to go to EWR because it was 600 dollars cheaper than ANYTHING in New York (LGA, JFK, HPN, SWF, ISP, I checked them all!).

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 77):
Most folks I have spoken to do not want to drive out to ISP for a flight they much rather use JFK, EWR, or LGA cause of the convenience even if the price is better in ISP.

I think you mean about making connections? Yeah, I too prefer NYC if the flight is nonstop. I can't do ISP-BWI-PWM, I just can't.  
Quoting joelfreak (Reply 75):
The east end of Long Island DOES have a reputation. There are people who want to go there, and there is no reason why one flight a day from YYZ may not do well.

I do think AC could make ISP work, but I don't think with specifically Hampton's traffic. There's a lot more to LI than Hamptons, even if you think they would use AC the most.


Just checking the flight traffic on ISP, it's crazy! So much crosswind and bumpiness (I heard from ATC). One pilot did a go around, but I missed hearing it.    WN's gotta get their act together, WN2661 is scheduled to leave 4 hours late! Getting in at quarter past 3am. Same thing last night! Must be a tough routing. Tonight, I think it's the rain thing causing the delays. PenAir and USAirways (Piedmont) cancelled service tonight.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 80):
WN's gotta get their act together, WN2661 is scheduled to leave 4 hours late! Getting in at quarter past 3am.

Is ISP open 24hours I tought that the latest you can arrive is 10pm if not you have to divert to some where else.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 3:59 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 81):

I mean arriving from ISP to MCO at 3:10am

It is leaving at 12:15am. And it's not 24hrs normally, just when there are delays. Control tower closes up at 12am.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 4:27 am

For those interested in the wx at ISP, here is a bit of a taste

WN 1104 N610WN TPA-ISP

Landing RWY 06

http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc368/737-8H4/new/73BF450E-8D10-492F-BDC3-A38D985BE7B4_zpsxvmmhy8c.jpg
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 4:36 am

Much of the discussion here has focused on the undeniable fact that JFK and LGA are more convenient than ISP for many parts of Long Island. So for the sake of argument, let's define ISP's service area as just Suffolk County, minus its westernmost towns of Babylon and Huntington. Even under this very restrictive definition ISP still serves a population in excess of one million. That's larger than the entire metropolitan areas of, to name a few, Tuscon, Omaha and Albuquerque. And by all rights that should be enough to support more service than there actually is.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 83):

Wow, nice catch! That was this night(?), how were the delays? And the load factors? decent?
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting PROSA (Reply 84):
That's larger than the entire metropolitan areas of, to name a few, Tuscon, Omaha and Albuquerque. And by all rights that should be enough to support more service than there actually is.

Right, but Tuscon et al does not have two major hub airports within reasonable driving distance siphoning away traffic from them.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 80):
WN's gotta get their act together, WN2661 is scheduled to leave 4 hours late! Getting in at quarter past 3am. Same thing last night! Must be a tough routing. Tonight, I think it's the rain thing causing the delays. PenAir and USAirways (Piedmont) cancelled service tonight.

So, if US Airways and PenAir (unsurprisingly, based on the weather here) cancelled, yet Southwest's flight actually operated, how is this a Southwest-problem?
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting joelfreak (Reply 74):
If you think UA is gaining marketshare on LI by hubbing EWR, let me introduce you to most ALL of Long Island who considers Newark to be in another country!

Agreed. Unless it is THE ONLY OPTION, most Long Islanders try avoid EWR at all costs. I live on the South Shore of Nassau County (west of the Meadowbrook too). My first pick is JFK, second is LGA. Newark is too far away. Have I done it? Yes, twice, when CO flew EWR-DAB, but even then we opted for LGA or JFK with a connection. If anyone on this thread said that UA was gaining market share on Long Island, you're living in some fantasy world.

As for ISP, I'd use it if the service was decent, but half the time I travel I'm going somewhere that is more convenient from JFK or LGA (ISP-DAB means a double connection; JFK/LGA-DAB means one). I don't think UA coming back to serve IAD is a bad idea. I still think that Delta should try again with ATL and DTW.

I also maintain that there is an overlap area of people who could just as easily use ISP or JFK/LGA. Anyone east of the Seaford-Oyster Bay to Babylon/Huntington is probably somewhat equidistant from both.

As for HPN, no it's not a different market. Those who live in Westchester, especially if you're close to 684 can make it to LGA in an hour or less. 684, Hutch, Whitestone Bridge, Whitestone Expwy, and hit the Grand Central for literally a minute or two and you're there. I've made it from Northwestern Nassau/Eastern Queens to Putnam County in an hour.

[Edited 2014-05-01 15:16:44]
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runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 01, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 87):

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 80):
WN's gotta get their act together, WN2661 is scheduled to leave 4 hours late! Getting in at quarter past 3am. Same thing last night! Must be a tough routing. Tonight, I think it's the rain thing causing the delays. PenAir and USAirways (Piedmont) cancelled service tonight.

So, if US Airways and PenAir (unsurprisingly, based on the weather here) cancelled, yet Southwest's flight actually operated, how is this a Southwest-problem?

Let us not take things out of context. I did justify WN a little with the weather for the delays:

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 80):
Just checking the flight traffic on ISP, it's crazy! So much crosswind and bumpiness (I heard from ATC). One pilot did a go around, but I missed hearing it.    WN's gotta get their act together, WN2661 is scheduled to leave 4 hours late! Getting in at quarter past 3am. Same thing last night! Must be a tough routing. Tonight, I tuoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 80):
WN's gotta get their act together, WN2661 is scheduled to leave 4 hours late! Getting in at quarter past 3am. Same thing last night! Must be a tough routing. Tonight, I think it's the rain thing causing the delays. PenAir and USAirways (Piedmont) cancelled service tonight.

So, if US Airways and PenAir (unsurprisingly, based on the weather here) cancelled, yet Southwest's flight actually operated, how is this a Southwest-problem?

But If your executives say there is a problem with flight delays and cancellations, then there is a problem. So yes, last night weather was a good reason, but to have hour and half delays today is a bit ridiculous. And it's not just today....

Quoting Revelation (Reply 86):

Quoting PROSA (Reply 84):
That's larger than the entire metropolitan areas of, to name a few, Tuscon, Omaha and Albuquerque. And by all rights that should be enough to support more service than there actually is.

Right, but Tuscon et al does not have two major hub airports within reasonable driving distance siphoning away traffic from them.

   Sort of. But, even siphoning traffic away, NYC is a major city (the largest) so to say you can't draw passengers from the majors would just be ludicrous. I would think of ISP to LGA/JFK as TTN/ACY are to PHL, but NYC a lot bigger area to "catch" with the right product.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):

This Article I wrote is about KISP, in Islip, NY; it is an airport serving the LI Area, with LIRR service to NYC.

Well, sort of LIRR service.
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daviation
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:04 am

The New York City area really has a lot of separate markets.

As pointed out, most people east of Manhattan wouldn't dream of going to Newark. It's not on their radar. But the population in New Jersey likewise wouldn't dream of going to another airport if they can get a good flight out of Newark.

I live in the Hudson Valley. Stewart is my first choice, but the options are so limited that they barely exist. Westchester is a good alternative if I can catch a good fare. Newark isn't too bad from my area; that's where most of the Hudson Valley residents go anyway. There are no bridges to cross, and the airport is served by a few highways.

That leaves LaGuardia and JFK. From my area west of the Hudson, they're poor choices because it involves two bridges and some piss-poor highways.

Having said that, however, my last two long-distance flights (to Honolulu and Tel Aviv) were from JFK. It's a hike, but they had the best choice of schedule and fares.

I wouldn't dream of using Islip. I might as well drive to my destination if it's within a day's driving. Suffolk County is pretty much on the other side of the earth as far as I'm concerned.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:20 am

Folks who visit the hamptons are not flying to McArthur. They rather fly to West or East Hampton on private jets or helicopters from Manhattan. Most get in their car and simply deal with the LIE. The Islip situation was great in the late 90s and early 2000s when there were many folks visiting Friends and relatives in Florida and beyond. Most of those left behind on LI have simply relocated and have no need to fly back and forth. The demographic of eastern Long Island has changed dramatically.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting varsity (Reply 73):
Agreed and when I saw what WN was doing there it made sense that B6 is not in there doing Fla., but nobody is doing some of the other places they're enjoying success (SJU, SDQ, as pointed out)

It would just be competing with its own JFK flights though. Why bother?

Quoting joelfreak (Reply 74):
Why is HPN SO different? They are both suburbs of NYC, and they both have people with money who would like to avoid LGA/JFK, and ESPECIALLY EWR.

It's not necessarily dramatically different, but it is somewhat different. For example, many of the most affluent suburbs in Westchester and Connecticut are farther from the city than HPN, whereas on Long Island they're mostly closer to the city than ISP is. Westchester and Connecticut have lots of corporate headquarters, Long Island doesn't. And so on.

In both cases the vast majority of people are using the major NYC airports, but I can see why HPN might be a slightly better market than ISP for legacy carrier hub service in particular. And that really is the only difference of substance — AA, DL and UA (or rather, their regional partners) offer ATL/CLT/ORD/DTW service from HPN, and don't from ISP. They both have similar amounts of traffic, and HPN actually had a bigger drop in traffic in 2013 than ISP did.

Quoting joelfreak (Reply 74):
If you think UA is gaining marketshare on LI by hubbing EWR, let me introduce you to most ALL of Long Island who considers Newark to be in another country!

EWR is obviously not a factor for most people on Long Island. I'm not sure why UA would care so much what its market share on Long Island would be, though. Whether it serves ISP or not, people in the NYC area for whom EWR is not convenient are relatively unlikely to choose UA (just as people for whom EWR is the most convenient airport are overwhelmingly likely to choose UA).

Quoting joelfreak (Reply 75):
The east end of Long Island DOES have a reputation.

Yes, if we're talking about people from NYC and its environs going to the Hamptons on summer weekends. The idea of the Hamptons sustaining traffic to ISP, which is not even that close to the Hamptons, from Canada of all places, is bizarre.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 76):
Actually, not. While LIRR officials knew that electrification would increase ridership on the Ronkonkoma line, and especially at Ronkonkoma station, they were taken very much by surprise at just how enormous a change came about. In particular, they did not realize just how much Montauk Line ridership would plummet.

That's not a great endorsement of their planning skills.   Anyway, that's no excuse for it still being a disaster 27 years later.

Quoting PROSA (Reply 84):
Much of the discussion here has focused on the undeniable fact that JFK and LGA are more convenient than ISP for many parts of Long Island. So for the sake of argument, let's define ISP's service area as just Suffolk County, minus its westernmost towns of Babylon and Huntington. Even under this very restrictive definition ISP still serves a population in excess of one million.

True, but still, that population, while obviously much closer to ISP, is still close enough to JFK/LGA that it will mostly go to those airports for a better schedule or fare. (And most of it is still in the areas that are least inconvenient to JFK and LGA.)

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 88):
I also maintain that there is an overlap area of people who could just as easily use ISP or JFK/LGA.

Sure. But the big airlines all would rather them use JFK/LGA, and by and large, they do (as do most of the people for whom ISP is legitimately more convenient).

Quoting daviation (Reply 91):
The New York City area really has a lot of separate markets.

Yes. Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of people from the whole area use JFK, LGA or EWR. Which of those three they use is dependent on where they're located, however. In the case of the area that ISP also (potentially) serves, it's JFK or LGA.

ISP and HPN clearly do not get most of the traffic from their potential catchment areas, because one or more of the major airports are relatively too close. And SWF gets almost no traffic at all from anywhere.  
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 93):

Quoting varsity (Reply 73):
Agreed and when I saw what WN was doing there it made sense that B6 is not in there doing Fla., but nobody is doing some of the other places they're enjoying success (SJU, SDQ, as pointed out)

It would just be competing with its own JFK flights though. Why bother?

It makes sense, hence why WN needs to try it... Or another P2P like F9 could do a thrice-weekly service. They do tons of destinations from IND, and if IND can do it, ISP can at least do SJU.



Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 93):
Sure. But the big airlines all would rather them use JFK/LGA, and by and large, they do (as do most of the people for whom ISP is legitimately more convenient).

I think that the Port Authority could take over ISP and get at least some of the majors to try service there. But, the Town would never want to do that, and I don't think the Port Authority really wants to deal with ISP either.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 93):
Westchester and Connecticut have lots of corporate headquarters, Long Island doesn't. And so on.

Maybe a little more, but Long Island is a big area, but there are a lot of businesses there too. Microsoft, CA, NBTY, just to name a few one's close to Islip. Canon just opened a huge HQ out in Melville. That's closer to ISP. So it's not much less business than in CT and WestChester.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 94):

Do you mean the same way Port Authority took over SWF from private ownership and turned it into New York's 4th airport? Not! Sorry to be snarky but PANYNJ has presided over the worst period in SWF's commercial history. I can't imagine them doing any better at ISP.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 95):
Do you mean the same way Port Authority took over SWF from private ownership and turned it into New York's 4th airport? Not! Sorry to be snarky but PANYNJ has presided over the worst period in SWF's commercial history. I can't imagine them doing any better at ISP.

The port authority has done a great job at wrecking SWF......i have no faith in that corrupt organization to do anything
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 93):
Sure. But the big airlines all would rather them use JFK/LGA, and by and large, they do (as do most of the people for whom ISP is legitimately more convenient).

You misunderstood the point of my saying this. Someone mentioned earlier about the Western Suffolk towns of Babylon and Huntington being conveniently close to JFK/LGA. I was adding to this. I do agree with you, but you didn't get the point of my statement.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 93):
For example, many of the most affluent suburbs in Westchester and Connecticut are farther from the city than HPN

Yes and no. You can make it to LGA at the least in about an hour or less, especially if you're close to 684. LGA is roughly 5 mins from the Whitestone Bridge when traffic is good. I've made it from Putnam County (Patterson) to the Bridge in about 45 mins.
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daviation
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 96):
The port authority has done a great job at wrecking SWF......i have no faith in that corrupt organization to do anything

If you need the George Washington Bridge closed they're the guys to call.

[Edited 2014-05-02 10:18:29]

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 97):
You can make it to LGA at the least in about an hour or less, especially if you're close to 684. LGA is roughly 5 mins from the Whitestone Bridge when traffic is good. I've made it from Putnam County (Patterson) to the Bridge in about 45 mins.

It's a big gamble. I've made it from the Hudson Valley to JFK in about an hour. But there have been many other times where it has taken several hours to make the same trip. Traffic is very unpredictable.


[Edited 2014-05-02 10:19:49]
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 98):
It's a big gamble. I've made it from the Hudson Valley to JFK in about an hour. But there have been many other times where it has taken several hours to make the same trip. Traffic is very unpredictable.

But the trip is plausible which basically helps the argument in favor of ISP. It can take 40 mins to get to JFK or it could take 2 hours. All depends.
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