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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 94):
It makes sense, hence why WN needs to try it... Or another P2P like F9 could do a thrice-weekly service. They do tons of destinations from IND, and if IND can do it, ISP can at least do SJU.


Most of those flights, however, are Apple Vacations charters, not Frontier's own service. So if they could get those tour companies to do some business out of ISP like they do at IND, PHL, BWI, and various other places, perhaps then F9 might try it.
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runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 100):

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 94):
It makes sense, hence why WN needs to try it... Or another P2P like F9 could do a thrice-weekly service. They do tons of destinations from IND, and if IND can do it, ISP can at least do SJU.


Most of those flights, however, are Apple Vacations charters, not Frontier's own service. So if they could get those tour companies to do some business out of ISP like they do at IND, PHL, BWI, and various other places, perhaps then F9 might try it.

I can see apple taking a shot at it. They are doing it at SWF (with Allegiant A/C). Does anyone know how they are doing? Otherwise, an interesting thing to see is if NK could do a ISP-SJU routing. It would be great for them because lower airport fees, smaller, more convenient airport. They could undercut fares really well here at ISP.

Another question I had I hope someone could awnser is... What about FRG? I know there used to be Dorniers to ALB, BOS, and SYR (?), but what happened? I think it would be interesting to see. I think if anything, FRG is really similar to TTN. Just hasn't had it's F9. Because PHL is about 40 minutes from Trenton, and Farmingdale is about 40 minutes to JFK (30 to LGA). I think, however, the NIMBY's there are much more elite, and unlike at TTN, they won't let anything happen there. Even FRG says its a private airport, without need for commercial (it says its too small). It has a terminal and a pre-expansion TTN sized parking lot, why not fly a few Q400's to BOS and BUF and BWI. I mean, there is no airline with that sort OP with the Q400 (I thought turboprop to silence any NIMBY's), but heck, even an EMB or CRJ. US Express could definitely, definitely be successful with a run (once-a-day at least) to BOS. There is no doubt in my mind, but those darn NIMBY's.....  

EDIT:

Quoting daviation (Reply 95):
Do you mean the same way Port Authority took over SWF from private ownership and turned it into New York's 4th airport? Not! Sorry to be snarky but PANYNJ has presided over the worst period in SWF's commercial history. I can't imagine them doing any better at ISP.

Yeah, I know, but I think the Port Authority may know more that a town that can't even balance a town budget. PANY works with millions of dollars, and hey, say what you will, but they run 4 airports without a hitch most of the time.

[Edited 2014-05-02 15:37:59]
 
JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 101):
What about FRG?

FARs changed. FRG doesn't have full FAR 139 certification, plus the NIMBY issue.

I'd love to see some sort of service out of FRG, but that's a huge long shot.
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 102):
FARs changed. FRG doesn't have full FAR 139 certification, plus the NIMBY issue

As somebody who lives a mile off the end of runway 32, I would love to be able to fly ANYWHERE other than ACY from FRG.  
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Fri May 02, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 102):
FARs changed. FRG doesn't have full FAR 139 certification, plus the NIMBY issue.

I'd love to see some sort of service out of FRG, but that's a huge long shot.

Sorry, what is an FAR 139? Sorry, never heard of that term.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 103):
As somebody who lives a mile off the end of runway 32, I would love to be able to fly ANYWHERE other than ACY from FRG.  


Haha, not much of a gambler?   Good, then don't bet on air service 

BTW, ISP is getting its' first -800 from PBI-ISP-BWI from 5-31 to 6-07, and an -800 on saturdays from 6-14 onward, and a few other irregulars. Plus the daily BWI starting 6-14 (?). kinda odd for a one way, but still. Anyone spotters here?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 104):

I'm booked on the -800 going to and from BWI this summer. It does an overnight turn from BWI, arriving around 10pm and leaving at 0625.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
prosa
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 104):
Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 102):
FARs changed. FRG doesn't have full FAR 139 certification, plus the NIMBY issue.

I'd love to see some sort of service out of FRG, but that's a huge long shot.

Sorry, what is an FAR 139? Sorry, never heard of that term.

FAR 139 is the federal rule governing facilities and safety at commercial airports.
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SXDFC
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 7:33 pm

I work for WN at ISP, and now finally get a chance to post not only my two cents but the reality of whats going on here..

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
LAS gone (2007), MDW gone (2012),

LAS and MDW were both axed in 2011, I remember working the LAS flight every morning when I got hired, and it always left full. I do remember it was a b(ch to non-rev on that flight.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
WN decided to even serve ISP

When WN first started service in March 1999, WNs primary focus was smaller secondary cities, and ISP was perfect for that. However when you look at the destinations WN serves out of ISP, its mainly catering too leasure travel, and thats why Florida will always be the "bread and butter" for WN at ISP.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
First thing to do is vacate WN from A1-A4 to show the airlines that WN is not going to hog the airport any more.

Why would we vacate of gates we use? You do realize that we utilize those gates every day right? A1-A4 are always used on terminating and originating flights. Occasionally we will operate turns from those gates as well. Not only that but WN Owns those gates as well..

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
My personal list of capable air service (other than current) are: RDU, BUF, PHX, LAX, SFO, CHS, BOS (real service, not an alaskan subsidy....), MDW/ORD, DEN, LAS, RSW, JAX, DCA

Why would "real" service work to BOS? American Eagle tried it, and Penair often leaves with about 4-5 people a flight ( rarely leaves full ). Out of any of the other destinations maybe RSW and DEN would be ideal, but DCA is already being operated by US Airways Express..

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
Dont be surprised if WN leaves as their fleet shrinks

WN isn't leaving.. PERIOD!

ISP makes money for WN, which is why WN is still there..
 
Art at ISP
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 8:10 pm

I live in the town of Huntington, and can tell you for a fact that ISP is much more convenient for me than JFK or LGA. 45-50 minutes with NO traffic, which is almost never, vs 20 minutes to ISP, plus paying twice as much for parking at NYC airports.

The downside to ISP is almost no service where I need to go. I used to be willing to connect, using DL in the day between ISP and CVG or ATL, or later US to PHL. PHL is a hell hole, and the Piedmont schedule is just like the train schedule in Italy, just a suggestion. US DCA service is over July 1 unless AA wins the appeal to keep 2 daily flights. When the 50 seaters go away, who knows what will be on that route. I'd see AA doing CLT a couple of times a day in a perfect world.

Carriers entrenched in NYC don't want to draw traffic away from JFK or LGA which is why majors wont expand and B6 doesn't want to be at ISP. Furthermore, when WN had no access to NYC they built ISP up to a nice little mini operation. Once LGA opened up, they didn't need ISP any more so they drew it down. I know many say they won't leave but I'm not so sure the current traffic levels are sustainable. ISP desperately needs a new anchor tenant....which I doubt will happen any time soon.

I'd love to see ISP grow, I just don't think it will happen any time soon.

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jfklganyc
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 8:53 pm

HPN vs ISP

They are two very different markets.

HPN is bordered on all sides by areas on Long Island like Muttontown. (If you're from LI, you know what I mean)

There is a TON of money right next to HPN, along with lots of corporate campuses and HQ (there are few on LI), Greenwich (home to NYCs uber rich that want to live in CT) and Stamford (the leading Hedge Fund location outside of Manhattan.

ISP is located in an industrial park with blue collar industries. The neighborhood surrounding it for miles in most directions is everyman working class.

You can talk about money areas on Long Island...but they are west and just as close to LGA or JFK
 
JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 103):
As somebody who lives a mile off the end of runway 32, I would love to be able to fly ANYWHERE other than ACY from FRG.

SUNY Farmingdale Class of 2012, and I was all over the news...let's see if you remember why  

If DL flew 2x CR7s to Atlanta and Detroit I would abandon the NYC airports until kingdom come! Such a far cry from possible that I won't even speak more of it. I've been in that terminal and they are completely incapable of handling any regular service on a 121 carrier these days. Plus, let's face it, the parking wouldn't be free anymore either   
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wnflyguy
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 8:59 pm

My future prediction is WN will add 2 ATL and 1 seasonal SJU N/S next year.
Flyguy
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JBAirwaysFan
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 111):
My future prediction is WN will add 2 ATL

If this happens then I have one thing to say...Welcome Back Delta.
In Loving Memory of Casey Edward Falconer; May 16, 1992-May 9, 2012
 
runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 107):
I work for WN at ISP, and now finally get a chance to post not only my two cents but the reality of whats going on here..

Wow, that in itself prompts me to want to ask millions of questions.... I'll narrow it down to a thousand.  
Quoting SXDFC (Reply 107):
LAS and MDW were both axed in 2011, I remember working the LAS flight every morning when I got hired, and it always left full. I do remember it was a b(ch to non-rev on that flight.

My bad, IIRC Las Vegas was an announced cut in 2010, ended in 2011. MDW flights were announced in 2011, axed June 3rd, 2012....

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 107):
Why would we vacate of gates we use? You do realize that we utilize those gates every day right? A1-A4 are always used on terminating and originating flights. Occasionally we will operate turns from those gates as well. Not only that but WN Owns those gates as well..

Well, you guys use them for overnight turns 99% of the time, and most often A1-A2 only during peak seasons. You can correct me if I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure the town has the right to use those gates should they be needed by another carrier. And to say WN isn't "abusing" the airport and essential stole the terminal is a bit of a stretch.... I mean about 14 flights a day (at most). The Town of Islip is incompetent, but should at least see what WN is trying to do, but they may be happy where they are right now, losing millions. If the Town can kick WN out of using at least A1, they have something to offer to other airlines. Without ONE gate, it's pretty tough try to get new air service.

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 107):
Why would "real" service work to BOS? American Eagle tried it, and Penair often leaves with about 4-5 people a flight ( rarely leaves full ). Out of any of the other destinations maybe RSW and DEN would be ideal, but DCA is already being operated by US Airways Express..

Eh, Penair's 4-5 people came from virtually no marketing, so I'd say that isn't too bad. If you could get real carrier to BOS, then you have something that can be marketed a lot, and voila, you get better loads. I mean, no airline wants to take risks like that, or just don't want to waste their time, but if they worked with it, you could really get things shaking. RSW was not doing great for much of its season, I have heard, but again if you offer a flight for 2 months, what do you really expect. DEN I agree would be something F9 might be able to exploit, especially with their new ULCC. And I said DCA because DCA is gone. I sincerely hope nothing happens with American's request. They don't deserve another two slots for what they call "essential service"....


Anyways, here come a few questions; How are the BWI loads, are some mid-day one's coming or leaving with Quoting ISP" class="quote" target="_blank">Art at ISP (Reply 108):
I'd see AA doing CLT a couple of times a day in a perfect world.

If anything a couple CRJ to replace DCA.

Quoting ISP" class="quote" target="_blank">Art at ISP (Reply 108):
I know many say they won't leave but I'm not so sure the current traffic levels are sustainable. ISP desperately needs a new anchor tenant....which I doubt will happen any time soon.

If WN leaves (sorry SXDFC), I think it may just work out for ISP. Who knows, it could prompt UA service to IAD, leading to possible IAH, DEN, I mean who knows. NK to FLL, AA to ORD, leading to DFW and CLT, DL to ATL, and B6   I mean this is all just guessing but, if WN leaves, it may not be the end of the world, as much as I love WN (see the love/hate relationship).

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 111):
My future prediction is WN will add 2 ATL and 1 seasonal SJU N/S next year.
Flyguy

WN has absolutely no interest at ISP, but if they did, I could see an ATL and an MDW before they even came close to SJU, however successful it could possibly be....

[Edited 2014-05-03 14:15:33]
 
runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 9:25 pm

One of my paragraphs got cut off, Oops, here it is:

Anyways, here come a few questions; How are the BWI loads, are some mid-day one's coming or leaving with > 50% loads? Is most of the traffic to BWI connecting? I'm not sure if you know the answers because I don't know what you do at ISP. What do you do (if you don't mind saying)? Anywho, were you there for their PVD or ORF or JAX flights? I found it interesting how you said there was crowded planes to LAS (even though non-revs too). Makes me wonder. One more question; Is the baggage returning at ISP archaic? From what google maps tells me  , It's another part of the terminal and someone just drives the bags up on the carts and they go right through the doors to the carousels. Or is that how it works everywhere? (I have much to learn). I may see you this summer at Aerocamp...
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 03, 2014 11:43 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 107):

Thank you for the actual first hard info!  
Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 110):
SUNY Farmingdale Class of 2012, and I was all over the news...let's see if you remember why  

Oh I definitely remember why, and I still sympathize with you.  
Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 111):

My future prediction is WN will add 2 ATL and 1 seasonal SJU N/S next year.
Flyguy

I like the way you think....I just hope you're right.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 113):
If the Town can kick WN out of using at least A1, they have something to offer to other airlines. Without ONE gate, it's pretty tough try to get new air service.

Frankly I think that, if the town did that, US Airways would try and get in there.  
Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 113):
Eh, Penair's 4-5 people came from virtually no marketing, so I'd say that isn't too bad. If you could get real carrier to BOS, then you have something that can be marketed a lot, and voila, you get better loads.

I've actually been hearing PenAir adverts on the radio of all places lately.
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bjorn14
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun May 04, 2014 2:06 pm

If money were no object, what's rhe possibility of a 5-10 gate expansion?
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prosa
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun May 04, 2014 5:48 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 109):
There is a TON of money right next to HPN, along with lots of corporate campuses and HQ (there are few on LI), Greenwich (home to NYCs uber rich that want to live in CT) and Stamford (the leading Hedge Fund location outside of Manhattan.
ISP is located in an industrial park with blue collar industries. The neighborhood surrounding it for miles in most directions is everyman working class.

All that is true, but only to an extent. There are some very affluent areas reasonably close to ISP, and some non-affluent areas - ghettos even - not too far from HPN.

What might be a more significant factor in HPN's relative favor is that access to LGA and JFK is actually more problematic from that airport's region than from ISP's area. Driving to the bigger airports from Westchester or Fairfield counties means having to deal with Whitestone Bridge or (for JFK) the Throgs Neck Bridge. Traffic on either bridge can turn into an absolute shrieking nightmare at any time with no warning. While traffic from the ISP area to LGA or JFK can be gruesome, at least it's more predictable.
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varsity
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun May 04, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 93):
Quoting varsity (Reply 73):
Agreed and when I saw what WN was doing there it made sense that B6 is not in there doing Fla., but nobody is doing some of the other places they're enjoying success (SJU, SDQ, as pointed out)

It would just be competing with its own JFK flights though. Why bother?

I would think they might because they are running out of growing room at JFK, so if they want to continue to expand, it will have to be elsewhere. If some percentage of their client base for a particular focus city destination is closer to the smaller airport and will use it, they can use some of the capacity at the bigger airport to fly somewhere else.

in my uneducated view this is the same reason they are using SWF and HPN (and -- to some degree -- even EWR and LGA) for Florida. They can dominate or at least be a contender on a route in the market without having it take up as much capacity at their hub.
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jfklganyc
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 12:43 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 116):
If money were no object, what's rhe possibility of a 5-10 gate expansion?

They can't fill the gates they have now. They don't need more gates.

I think you got the impression from some posts that WN is hogging gates and keeping others out.

There is no one trying to come in. If WN gave all the gates (Which they built 10 years ago) to the town tomorrow, and stopped flying to ISP...you would have 4 empty gates.
 
runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 119):
I think you got the impression from some posts that WN is hogging gates and keeping others out.

There is no one trying to come in. If WN gave all the gates (Which they built 10 years ago) to the town tomorrow, and stopped flying to ISP...you would have 4 empty gates.

WN is hogging gates. If WN only had 2 or 3 gates, they could do the same volume as they do today. Most (All) daily turnarounds are A5-A6. All the others, for the most part are ROAs. While WN uses the gates, and possibly no one really wants to use the gates, but it's only another hoop to jump through to try to woo carriers that may have a slight interest. If another airline enters, they don't want to do too much work because it is already a risk they're taking. So, while you may not consider it hogging, don't you still think it's worthwhile for the town to have A1-A2 back, so they can at least remove some of the WN logos all over the place to make it less intimidating for another airline? And I don't understand your last comment, if they gave back the gates they built (A4-A8), and they left, there would be 8 empty gates, not 4?

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 116):

If money were no object, what's rhe possibility of a 5-10 gate expansion?

It's funny to say if money is no object, because money is always the object. I can't think of it otherwise. With Money as an object, I'd say its unlikely. I still think the best way to expand if they decide to is out towards rwy 10/24. They could make a nice terminal if they remove that saucer and build outwards. With money as no object, then the town would definitely want to expand. Here are some of their master plans. Interesting.... http://www.townofislip-ny.gov/~airpo.../images/files/MasterPlanSlides.pdf
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 119):


There is no one trying to come in. If WN gave all the gates (Which they built 10 years ago) to the town tomorrow, and stopped flying to ISP...you would have 4 empty gates.

Or you would have F9's newest focus city.  
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 116):
If money were no object, what's rhe possibility of a 5-10 gate expansion?
Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 120):
WN is hogging gates. If WN only had 2 or 3 gates, they could do the same volume as they do today. Most (All) daily turnarounds are A5-A6.

They own the gates. You keep mentioning that the city can use them if needed; can you find that document for me because I'd be interested in learning the exact provisions to do with that agreement.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 121):
Or you would have F9's newest focus city.

    Big grin

[Edited 2014-05-05 14:13:13]
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SXDFC
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 9:20 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 120):
WN is hogging gates.

Once again, how are they hogging gates that they OWN! Not only that, no one else is coming into ISP... The only "new" carrier that will be coming in will be American Eagle either before or during the transition during the merger..
 
runningonempty
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting SXDFC (Reply 123):

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 120):
WN is hogging gates.

Once again, how are they hogging gates that they OWN! Not only that, no one else is coming into ISP... The only "new" carrier that will be coming in will be American Eagle either before or during the transition during the merger..

Maybe "hogging" is the wrong term. Islip never asked for the gates back, but A1-A4 are town-owned, leased to WN? Now whether the lease is under a long contract with the A4-A8 gates, don't know, but they are using gates they could go without. Of course, if Islip lets them use the gates, sure, but IMHO I think its better 2 gates are empty to make Islip seem opportunistic rather than 8 gates WN holds to do occasional ROAs. SXDFC, got any time for a few Q's?



Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 114):

One of my paragraphs got cut off, Oops, here it is:

Anyways, here come a few questions; How are the BWI loads, are some mid-day one's coming or leaving with > 50% loads? Is most of the traffic to BWI connecting? I'm not sure if you know the answers because I don't know what you do at ISP. What do you do (if you don't mind saying)? Anywho, were you there for their PVD or ORF or JAX flights? I found it interesting how you said there was crowded planes to LAS (even though non-revs too). Makes me wonder. One more question; Is the baggage returning at ISP archaic? From what google maps tells me  , It's another part of the terminal and someone just drives the bags up on the carts and they go right through the doors to the carousels. Or is that how it works everywhere? (I have much to learn). I may see you this summer at Aerocamp...
 
SXDFC
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 05, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 124):
A1-A4 are town-owned, leased to WN? Now whether the lease is under a long contract with the A4-A8 gates, don't know, but they are using gates they could go without. Of course, if Islip lets them use the gates, sure, but IMHO I think its better 2 gates are empty to make Islip seem opportunistic rather than 8 gates WN holds to do occasional ROAs.

Southwest owns all of the gates at ISP.. They use those gates everyday..

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 124):
SXDFC, got any time for a few Q's?

Go right ahead..  
 
beeweel15
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue May 06, 2014 5:24 am

Now to be honest what routes can be really be supported from ISP. with at least one or two round trips a day. Cause nearly all the destinations mentioned need a connection. Will the also improve the lirr connections from the airport like have hourly express services directly from the city and brooklyn similar to LGW and LHR for example.
 
mark787
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Tue May 06, 2014 8:14 am

Actually, If NK restarts ISP, it would be it’s third try. My first time using ISP was in early 2000. My wife and I were traveling to Miami, and because I HAD to take a trip on a 747-100 before if would disappear from service, I opted to use the infamous TowerAir from JFK-MIA. The flight was canceled due to technical problems with TWO of their 747’s. The cheapest flight I could find in under 24 hrs was on NK from ISP to FLL. I remember that the ISP terminal was still in the orginal layout, (Before the new SWA terminals were built). The experience was a very good one for me, and an even greater plus was the walk across the ramp in open air to our NK MD82!! In 2008, my wife had to travel to Miami for the death of a family member and used NK again from ISP to FLL. From what I recall, these flights were relatively new that year but only lasted a short time after that. NK used A319’s on these flights.
ISP’s future from this New Yorker’s point of view is quite shaky.

As a resident of western Nassau county, JFK is only a 10 min drive while LGA is only a 15 min drive. For me to trek an hour east to ISP, ticket prices have to be considerably cheaper. I once booked a one way flight on WN from ISP to FLL for $49.00!!!! But WN has been quite pricy lately out of ISP. B6 almost always comes out cheaper out of JFK, and astonishingly, sometimes even cheaper out of LGA. Even DL and AA have had better prices lately, making ISP unattractive, even if it is less congested and more user friendly than JFK or LGA. Even worse, WN cut back on the frequency from ISP to FLL, with now only the early morning flight at 7am and with a later flight in the afternoon. The rest must connect at BWI.
The problem with ISP is location. Consider that ISP is located in Suffolk County which is borderline eastern / central long island. For folks in Nassau county and points west, that’s a far ride. ISP’s catchment area is really dependent on the local population with few businesses in the area to attract business travelers. While in theory you can include NYC in that group, NYC folks have three major airports with endless destinations available in shorter distances and at affordable prices. So if you deduct NYC and even majority of Nassau county, and you have a catchment area of Suffolk county which is much more sparsely populated the further east you go. Then if you factor in the large upper class residents of Long Island, you see an even more diminished use of WN and ISP as im quite sure that these folks do not travel in anything less than business class. It is then not surprising that aside from BWI and PVD, most of the destinations that keep WN making money in ISP are to destinations in Florida.
Accessibility to ISP is also limited, and unless the LIRR finally double tracks the entire mainline east from Farmingdale to Ronkonkoma, hourly service will still be the norm. Talk about double tracking the mainline has been around for many years, and while I believe that it will eventually get built out of sheer necessity due to the overcrowding conditions on this branch, politics will make the project considerably delayed and as the MTA usually does… over budget. Had the town of Islip built the terminals on the north side of ISP, an very efficient intermodal facility could have been built at the present LIRR Ronkonkoma station, and would have placed the facility in closer proximities to the LIE.

Sad thing for me to say considering that I very much like ISP and it’s “small airport” feel that it gives to people who usually fly out of hectic JFK and LGA. When you travel out of ISP, you quickly go into shock that there is an airport in the NY area that doesn’t look like you were at a football game. In order for the airport to even remain competitive, it must lure people with low ticket prices, more destinations, and more choices of carriers. WN alone won’t cut it, and having to transit through other hubs to get to my destination when I can do it nonstop from JFK or LGA, the choice becomes obvious to many. The future also depends highly on the future of Long Island’s economy which as many who live here will tell you, is not in good shape. Majority of the youngest of the population will most likely either move west to the city or leave the state all together. Jobs are paying considerably less yet taxes, utilities, etc… are among the highest in the nation. Folks in my age group with a family are finding it to be extremely hard to make it by with our income combined with our high expenses. As folks begin to leave, that catchment area that WN saw when they started in ISP some years back will become even smaller, so it’s no surprise to see WN’s decline in services out of ISP with a growing presence at LGA.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed May 07, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):

Actually, If NK restarts ISP, it would be it’s third try. My first time using ISP was in early 2000. My wife and I were traveling to Miami, and because I HAD to take a trip on a 747-100 before if would disappear from service, I opted to use the infamous TowerAir from JFK-MIA. The flight was canceled due to technical problems with TWO of their 747’s. The cheapest flight I could find in under 24 hrs was on NK from ISP to FLL. I remember that the ISP terminal was still in the orginal layout, (Before the new SWA terminals were built). The experience was a very good one for me, and an even greater plus was the walk across the ramp in open air to our NK MD82!! In 2008, my wife had to travel to Miami for the death of a family member and used NK again from ISP to FLL. From what I recall, these flights were relatively new that year but only lasted a short time after that. NK used A319’s on these flights.
ISP’s future from this New Yorker’s point of view is quite shaky.

Thanks for the story! Shame you didn't get to take the 747, but ISP must have been interesting 14 years ago. I've seen it in google earth "history" and it seems as though it was only the saucer and two concourses, one like concourse B, and the other is concourse B. Pretty cool how it evolved. NK was never really interested in ISP, they were really too interested in LGA. It would be interesting to see a LBE situation with NK at ISP, although I think spirit kinda cut a lot out of Latrobe (Houston, less freq- MYR). But nonetheless, LBE is an interesting success story. Do you know if NK used air stairs in concourse B for their FLL service in 2008? Another interesting thing I recognized was that NK had horrible load factors for the first 2 of the 3 months they were there. In the 3rd month, they had 80% loads. And it was summer, so maybe they were just uninterested.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):
As a resident of western Nassau county, JFK is only a 10 min drive while LGA is only a 15 min drive. For me to trek an hour east to ISP, ticket prices have to be considerably cheaper. I once booked a one way flight on WN from ISP to FLL for $49.00!!!! But WN has been quite pricy lately out of ISP. B6 almost always comes out cheaper out of JFK, and astonishingly, sometimes even cheaper out of LGA. Even DL and AA have had better prices lately, making ISP unattractive, even if it is less congested and more user friendly than JFK or LGA. Even worse, WN cut back on the frequency from ISP to FLL, with now only the early morning flight at 7am and with a later flight in the afternoon. The rest must connect at BWI.

JFK ten minutes away in Nassau! You must live on the border! And I totally get the whole price thing. It's a lot more expensive to go to ISP on WN rather than JFK on B6. B6 offers a better product for less then why bother using ISP for a low quality air service for much more? Get it.    And you're right about the whole WN makes money off of florida. They should have taken Airtran's code, FL   Although WN has more flights in the midwest than Florida, it's the FL flights that produce the highest yields.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):
Sad thing for me to say considering that I very much like ISP and it’s “small airport” feel that it gives to people who usually fly out of hectic JFK and LGA. When you travel out of ISP, you quickly go into shock that there is an airport in the NY area that doesn’t look like you were at a football game.

That seems to be the general consensus on it's main benefit.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):
As folks begin to leave, that catchment area that WN saw when they started in ISP some years back will become even smaller, so it’s no surprise to see WN’s decline in services out of ISP with a growing presence at LGA.

Long Island is not doing great, that's a fact. And with Southwest's high fares, I agree 100%. I think that if WN gets any more slots, say for a dozen non stops, or gets space at JFK, and enough space for florida flights, they may drop out of ISP, but I seriously don't think they will get as high yields in LGA or JFK as they get in ISP. I mean, some people are buying the tickets (seriously doubt there are that many non-revs), because January 2014 for them had 90 percent average loads. ZW (Air Wisconsin) had a low 76 percent load factor in January. AY (Allegiant) had 90% in December, while 77% load factor in January. We see why they only do seasonal now....

On another note, I was at MacArthur yesterday. I was late to the party, got there at 8:30, but had a snack at the new restaurant. Seems nice. Now I can't tell the future, but I wish them the best of luck. SXDFC, were you there, how was it? Any WN or US spokespeople for the 70th anniversary of the airport and 15 years of WN?
How are the BWI loads, are some mid-day one's coming or leaving with > 50% loads? Is most of the traffic to BWI connecting? I'm not sure if you know the answers because I don't know what you do at ISP. What do you do (if you don't mind saying)? Anywho, were you there for their PVD or ORF or JAX flights? I found it interesting how you said there was crowded planes to LAS (even though non-revs too). Makes me wonder. One more question; Is the baggage returning at ISP archaic? From what google maps tells me , It's another part of the terminal and someone just drives the bags up on the carts and they go right through the doors to the carousels. Or is that how it works everywhere? (I have much to learn). I may see you this summer at Aerocamp...
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Wed May 07, 2014 12:35 pm

They say nobody's ever beaten the Van Wyck!

Quoting PROSA (Reply 117):
Traffic on either bridge can turn into an absolute shrieking nightmare at any time with no warning. While traffic from the ISP area to LGA or JFK can be gruesome, at least it's more predictable.

"They say nobody's ever beaten the Van Wyck!"

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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):

Actually, If NK restarts ISP, it would be it’s third try. My first time using ISP was in early 2000. My wife and I were traveling to Miami, and because I HAD to take a trip on a 747-100 before if would disappear from service, I opted to use the infamous TowerAir from JFK-MIA. The flight was canceled due to technical problems with TWO of their 747’s.

I read down this thread waiting for someone to bring that up. It makes it even better that you mentioned FF! What a complete sham TowerAir was. I had such a terrible experience when I was 6 that I can still recall waiting at JFK for a "gate" in the upper deck of a hot 747-100 during a downpour, only to be put into a People Mover after two hours.

I too, flew NK from ISP in 2000; ISP-TPA on the DC-9-30. We ended up making an unscheduled stop in MYR to refuel. I also recall flying Carnival Air Lines on either the 737-400 or 722. My parents loved those budget airlines on our yearly trips down to Florida.

My question: why would anyone pick NK over WN? I flew NK in August LAX-LAS and had to pay for my carry-on (granted the flight was something like $35). I would pick WN over the Super LLC model of F9 and NK any day. Plus, with two free checked bags and no need to pay to select a seat - unless Long Island has changed since I left 7 years ago - that's a sell to Florida!
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 2:45 am

I'm rather intrigued by this whole discussion, which seems to be largely Long Island-centric. But surely some of what is paying WN's way in ISP is inbound traffic. Yes, as hard as it might be to imagine, there is industry in LI, and (it seems to me) especially around ISP. I have to fly into Islandia a few times a year, and my choices are US to LGA and an hour+ on the LIE, or whatever to JFK and 90 minutes+ on the Southern State, or WN thru BWI to ISP and 10 minutes to my destination. Granted, the BWI connection is no joyride, but it beats LGA!

For what it's worth, my seat-mates on my last 3 or 4 flights to ISP have been doing the same thing; non-LI'ers flying to LI on business and accepting a WN connection so as to avoid an extended guided tour of the nether regions of the LIE...
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 5:31 am

I'm going to say this once because people in this thread don't seem to know this. WN does NOT have exclusive rights to all of the gates in A (Source: Former ISP Commissioner Teresa Rizzuto). 4 out of the 8 A gates (as of 2011) can be shared by other carriers if need be. What I don't know is if WN has a preferential agreement for those gates. I just know that they don't have exclusive rights. There is definitely room for new entrants (or returning carriers).
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 8:14 am

Quoting PITingres (Reply 131):

indeed, there are a good number of businesses located in the immediate area of ISP, as well as places such as Deer Park and Melville located in western Suffolk county, but the vast majority of folks residing in these areas trek as far as NYC for their jobs. It's an unfortunate fact that the city is where the jobs pay the money that you need to live on Long Island. That said, if your destination places you within 10 to 30 mins from ISP, hands down, a flight on WN regardless of connections will make more sense than flying into LGA or JFK. Traffic can be just as bad in Nassau county as it is on the Van Wyck. I just don't see ISP being able to support more carriers as long as WN remains the majority tenant, and I don't think that the market holds too much in the way of business travellers to lure in more carriers. Although I do think that Allegiant might have a good shot at success here.

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 130):

I think for many, it's all about price. would I fly NK over WN? if the price is right, yes. And if the price is really nice, I will drive out to ISP any day just to get a good deal. I rather it be non stop but as they say, it's all about the $$!!

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 128):

Yep!! right on the border!!

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 128):

According to what my wife described, that yes they did use jet bridges for NK. But her description on what part of the terminal was used was vague. She did exit from the right side of the central entrance which would lead me to think that NK used gates that were used normally by WN. But im sure there is somebody out there who might be able to answer this more specifically.

I should also point out that every WN flight that I have been on from ISP to FLL and back, and once to PBI, were all fully loaded with NO empty seats. So there is demand that can keep WN at ISP even with their growing presence at LGA.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 8:18 am

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):
Actually, If NK restarts ISP, it would be it%u2019s third try. My first time using ISP was in early 2000. My wife and I were traveling to Miami, and because I HAD to take a trip on a 747-100 before if would disappear from service, I opted to use the infamous TowerAir from JFK-MIA. The flight was canceled due to technical problems with TWO of their 747%u2019s.

Did you ever get your 747-100 flight in?

I don't really remember much of my one Tower Air experience, about a month before my 5th birthday in 1993... But it was the only time I ever used the original Terminal 1/Eastern Terminal at JFK. One thing I do remember is that the seat belt buckles had Pan Am logos on them!

But yeah, I remember, vaguely (since my family never used ISP, NK's first go at ISP. Of course, NK was a very different airline then, having not yet hit on its current ULCC formula. In general it was pretty nondescript.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):
It is then not surprising that aside from BWI and PVD, most of the destinations that keep WN making money in ISP are to destinations in Florida.

PVD is long gone. It's just BWI and Florida. And BWI has lots of connections.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 127):
Accessibility to ISP is also limited ... Had the town of Islip built the terminals on the north side of ISP, an very efficient intermodal facility could have been built at the present LIRR Ronkonkoma station, and would have placed the facility in closer proximities to the LIE.

Yeah, terminals on the south side of the airport make little sense from a rail or road standpoint. The airport is right next to the LIE and the LIRR but not particularly easily accessible from either. Now, I understand that when it was developed in the 1960s the Ronkonkoma LIRR station was insignificant, but the (then-new) LIE was there...

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 128):
ISP must have been interesting 14 years ago.

As someone who grew up around JFK and thought even LGA was kind of small, it just always seemed like a sleepy little airport to me. (I didn't use it until the late 2000s, but had been there a few times before to pick up/drop off relatives etc.) I'll grant you that it was more interesting than it is now... It could hardly get any more boring unless it closes entirely.  
Quoting varsity (Reply 129):
"They say nobody's ever beaten the Van Wyck!"

Exactly. It's predictable; you know you won't beat it.  
Quoting Delta717 (Reply 130):
I read down this thread waiting for someone to bring that up. It makes it even better that you mentioned FF! What a complete sham TowerAir was. I had such a terrible experience when I was 6 that I can still recall waiting at JFK for a "gate" in the upper deck of a hot 747-100 during a downpour, only to be put into a People Mover after two hours.

We should start the Childhood Memories of Tower Air Club/Support Group.  
Quoting Delta717 (Reply 130):
I also recall flying Carnival Air Lines on either the 737-400 or 722.

As a guess I'd say it was probably the 734; at least, that's what I remember Carnival/Pan Am operating to ISP.

Quoting Delta717 (Reply 130):
My question: why would anyone pick NK over WN?

Because it's cheap, or at least it looks cheap until you start adding all those fees in.

That said, NK's track record at ISP suggests that it is not a heavily price-conscious market. It's a convenience-driven market that's willing to pay a premium.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 8:43 am

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 134):

Nope. never did get to fly in one that day but I have before on TWA and Pan AM. and the story goes that the first 747 that we were suppose to fly on which WAS a -100 had a problem with the heater on the windshield in the cockpit. This was an ex-Pan Am -100 from the registration back then. So they brought out a "New" -200 ex-KLM bird that was newely acquired by FF and had yet to be put in service!!! In fact , I believe it was in an all white color. Once brought to the gate (remember that FF had it's own terminal outside of the terminal area at JFK), a huge puddle of water began to pour out of the under carriage. By now it was almost 8 hrs delayed, with what was now in the presence of the PA and NYPD swat team. At this point, realizing that 747's are not hydro powered, and with the swat team now in full gear, I decided to call it a day and went back home. And this is how I ended up in ISP the next day on NK. Our luggage however made it to MIA on the 747.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 1:09 pm

My parents flew FF to TLV once (unplanned return to SNN after fuel stop on the return, can't recall the reason now) and a friend of mine was on FF041 that W/O at JFK in 1995. I think he, like you, was in it for the equipment, but that experience cured him of any desire to give them further custom.

I recall that KW/PA flew from ISP to BQN, PSE and SJU for years. KW had one or two AB3's prior to the merger but otherwise this would have been a 722 or 734 as stated. My one experience with that version of Pan Am was an AB3 flight JFK-MIA and we somehow ended up on a KW 722 (which I was told was known as the "roach coach") coming back. The in-flight experience on PA-II was pretty nice but the latter was in very sorry shape. I don't know that they ever got the chance to get their act together before they folded.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting mark787 (Reply 133):
Although I do think that Allegiant might have a good shot at success here.

Tried and failed... Seasonal December-Janurary now.



Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 132):
I'm going to say this once because people in this thread don't seem to know this. WN does NOT have exclusive rights to all of the gates in A (Source: Former ISP Commissioner Teresa Rizzuto). 4 out of the 8 A gates (as of 2011) can be shared by other carriers if need be. What I don't know is if WN has a preferential agreement for those gates. I just know that they don't have exclusive rights. There is definitely room for new entrants (or returning carriers).

Do you know Ms. Rizzuto too? And shared sounds nice, and I guess its what we will live with to try to get new carriers. I would go insane (happy insane) to see a JetBlue plane leave ISP from one of the A gates.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 134):
Because it's cheap, or at least it looks cheap until you start adding all those fees in.

That said, NK's track record at ISP suggests that it is not a heavily price-conscious market. It's a convenience-driven market that's willing to pay a premium.

Hence why WN is making such high yields. People will pay a premium to use the airport. That's why B6 could do some damage should it get to ISP.

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 134):
But yeah, I remember, vaguely (since my family never used ISP, NK's first go at ISP. Of course, NK was a very different airline then, having not yet hit on its current ULCC formula. In general it was pretty nondescript.

Yeah, they never really stood out. Just a little guy flying MD-80's in a basic livery. The ULCC idea was smart because it really gave them a name.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Thu May 08, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 137):
Do you know Ms. Rizzuto too? And shared sounds nice, and I guess its what we will live with to try to get new carriers. I would go insane (happy insane) to see a JetBlue plane leave ISP from one of the A gates.

I met her once and asked her about the gate situation. She is a good friend of one of my college professors. From what I heard they've been trying to get Delta back too.

Quoting mark787 (Reply 133):
According to what my wife described, that yes they did use jet bridges for NK. But her description on what part of the terminal was used was vague

They used the jetway gate in concourse B, formerly Delta's and currently Allegiant's.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 10, 2014 12:46 am

Quoting JBAirwaysFan (Reply 138):

I met her once and asked her about the gate situation. She is a good friend of one of my college professors. From what I heard they've been trying to get Delta back too.

Thats awesome! But was the news about trying get Delta back from before her exit (in 2012)? Because I would figure Delta least likely of the legacies to want to return because of all the money they're spending fixing up the major airports.
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 10, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 137):

Are you sure it's only running for two months? Their schedules aren't evem loaded that far out yet and it seems like Allegiant wouldn't just fly the route 16 times the entire year.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 10, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 134):
It's just BWI and Florida. And BWI has lots of connections.

Your point about BWI is well-taken. Even though fewer cities have direct service than in the past, it's still possible to get to most places on the WN network from ISP via BWI. I've found connecting at BWI to be generally easy.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 10, 2014 10:01 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 140):

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 137):

Are you sure it's only running for two months? Their schedules aren't evem loaded that far out yet and it seems like Allegiant wouldn't just fly the route 16 times the entire year.

Hyperbolizing to prove a point. But I mean really, have you seen the loads? It drops a lot in January, and February. I was doing some fake bookings for seats on flights less then 5 hours in advance (so people who don't choose seats would have assigned one's already), and they look about 40-50 at the lowest and 60-77 at most. Allegiant won't be back for long. Plus, there have been horrible stories about 4 hour delays, subbing with unmarked planes (Falcon Air), rude stewardesses, and just a week or two ago they used an SY 737 How confusing that was.... I think there haven't been too many "great" stories about AAY at ISP. I personally can handle a lot when flying, but LIer's of all people (a little stereotype) don't put up with anything.

I wanted to call to mind this article: http://www.newsday.com/long-island/s...plans-to-leave-macarthur-1.6659186

I was shocked that Islip signed a 25-year lease with WN, I mean it's not a home mortgage, it's a public airport. And I was more surprised that they had essentially a "get out of jail free pass". I really wish I could see the contract WN and the airport signed on July 30, 2004. I wonder whats to be paid for by the town, the airline, etc., and if there are any other spots where they could jump out. Just a question, if this is a town airport, would a citizen of the town of Islip be allowed to see the contract, or is it private?

Would a ISP-BNA flight work? I think they could get at least half O&D traffic, and the rest connecting. If ISP-BWI is a lot O&D, then BNA should work similarly. I mean, they used to run the flight, until around 2005-2006?
 
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sat May 10, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 142):

You'll learn that hyperbolizing is not well recieved on this site.  

This next part isn't directed to you in any way, but if the stories about people being upset about the equipment subs are true, then I'm actually a bit ahocked (and notuch shocks me on this site anymore    ). If people are going to make a big deal out of an equipment sub and if they can't handle the "confusion" of boarding a plane with different markings, then they have to get their priorities straight. I can see it getting confusing somewhere that you have to walk out to your plane but ISP has a jetbridge for Allegiant. And yes, flights are going to get delayed. It's a fact of life. I've been on flights that were 4-6 hours delayed and sometimes, the airline even had the nerve to cancel it!   Rant over  

And I've heard millions of stories about Allegiant, I always take those kinds of things withh a grain of salt until I try it myself.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun May 11, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 139):
Thats awesome! But was the news about trying get Delta back from before her exit (in 2012)?

It was in 2011. So yes, it was before that. I think ISP will be in Delta's cards again at some point. Even in 2011 their counters were still in existence. The only thing missing was the kiosks.
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RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun May 11, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 143):
This next part isn't directed to you in any way, but if the stories about people being upset about the equipment subs are true, then I'm actually a bit ahocked (and notuch shocks me on this site anymore    ). If people are going to make a big deal out of an equipment sub and if they can't handle the "confusion" of boarding a plane with different markings, then they have to get their priorities straight. I can see it getting confusing somewhere that you have to walk out to your plane but ISP has a jetbridge for Allegiant. And yes, flights are going to get delayed. It's a fact of life. I've been on flights that were 4-6 hours delayed and sometimes, the airline even had the nerve to cancel it!   Rant over  

I don't mean to try and argue because that's not my intention, and I do understand when airlines have problems, because sometimes it out of their control, but seriously, if you're paying 5 dollars, 15 dollars, 1500 dollars, any amount for a flight departing at __:____ and arriving at __:___ in seat __A,B,C... then that's is what you deserve. The airline should exhaust every resource possible to achieve what has been requested by the customer. I know this is technically a "service" business and I understand that sometimes things are out of their control, but 4 hour delays are certainly preventable, mainly by cancellations, but also, by keeping up with maintenance, making sure employees are properly trained, etc (I can go on and on). If an airline knows they are going to serve a customer 4 hours late, then they (the customers) deserve: to be known their flight is going to be cancelled, a full refund, and a booked on the next flight (maintaining a full refund) because the customer couldn't receive the "product" requested. (I'm not saying if I ran I airline I would do that   )When would you go to a hospital for knee surgery at 2:00pm and wait for 4 hours because the hospital used shoddy tools? I know, I know there are a lot of things out of their control, but a lot of times, its cost-cutting. It's a fact that airline could never stay in business if they gave the customers a free flight for a four hour delay, but hey, it's the way a true business would want to work. Rant Over  

And BTW, I always take complaints with a grain of salt. I never flew allegiant, and remain skeptical, but if I was presented with a reason to go to Punta Gorda, you know I'd try out allegiant if I could. And I figured that whole hyperbolizing thing out by above rant.  
 
mark787
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Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Sun May 11, 2014 5:54 am

I wasn't aware that Allegiant was already experiencing issues at ISP. I had heard from a few friends who work at ISP that flights were full from their point of view, although they did mention the substitute aircrafts on a few occasions. I was kind of surprised that they selected Punta Gorda over say Sanford or any other more popular secondary Florida airport. LI has a very huge connection with Florida as everyone knows, so a weekly flight to Sanford would have made sense. It would be somewhat competition to WN to MCO but Sanford is not MCO so im sure a market exists for them without getting into a turf war with WN.My guess has always been that other carriers such as B6 have not wanted to start service into ISP because they feel that maybe the market does not sustain 2 LCC's. I personally was hoping that B6 was going to start flights out of ISP like it was once rumoured, but unless WN dramatically cuts service out of ISP, any new entrants will be in the form of feeder flights such as Delta Connection or United Express to and from hubs.
 
BOACCunard
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:59 am

RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 12, 2014 7:52 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 137):
Tried and failed... Seasonal December-Janurary now.

No way, it doesn't end until May 26. G4 hasn't announced schedules for winter-spring 2014-15 yet, but I'm guessing it will be something like December-May again. Certainly not just December-January.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 137):
People will pay a premium to use the airport. That's why B6 could do some damage should it get to ISP.

If B6 came in to compete with WN to e.g. FLL and MCO, it would probably just end up splitting the market in two and losing both airlines a lot of money.

Now, if for some reason WN ever decided to leave, then B6 could probably do very nicely flying from ISP to at least some of FLL/PBI/MCO/TPA, just as WN does now. But I don't know why that would happen. And I don't see room for both of them. This is why you see B6 at HPN but not ISP. WN is already doing what B6 would do at ISP.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 142):
have you seen the loads? It drops a lot in January, and February.

Where are you getting loads for February from? I'm not seeing February numbers posted yet on TranStats. Do you have another source?

It does drop a lot from December to January, but a total of two months' data (the first one being only half a month, and the second half of December at that, with holidays there) is not exactly much to go on. I assume G4 knows what its load factors have been since then, and according to it they're sufficient for it to return next year. Only the airline knows what the load factor needs to be on this particular route for it to be profitable.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 142):
Just a question, if this is a town airport, would a citizen of the town of Islip be allowed to see the contract, or is it private?

You should be able to see it under FOIL, I would think. It doesn't matter whether or not you're a resident of the town.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 142):
Would a ISP-BNA flight work? I think they could get at least half O&D traffic, and the rest connecting. If ISP-BWI is a lot O&D, then BNA should work similarly.

Anecdotally, ISP-BWI seems to rely a lot on connections. And BNA is a totally different market from BWI, a much, much smaller one.

Not that I expect WN to start (or restart) any new cities from ISP, but if it were to I'd certainly expect ATL and/or MDW before BNA. Those are much larger markets.

That said, I think the current operation is probably about the right size for WN. Florida + BWI seems about right, bearing in mind that it is not WN's primary NYC-area airport any more. (If it were, that would be completely different!)

Quoting mark787 (Reply 146):
I was kind of surprised that they selected Punta Gorda over say Sanford or any other more popular secondary Florida airport.

I'm sure it's about competition with WN. Yes, SFB is not MCO, but still, look at the destinations G4 serves from SFB: very, very few have nonstops from MCO. G4, in general, operates very few routes that have nonstop competition, even when taking into account other airports in the same area (e.g. MCO and SFB).
Getting There is Half the Fun!
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6183
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 12, 2014 12:52 pm

Quoting BOACCunard (Reply 147):
That said, I think the current operation is probably about the right size for WN. Florida + BWI seems about right, bearing in mind that it is not WN's primary NYC-area airport any more. (If it were, that would be completely different!)

Bingo. It was their primary NYC airport. They had close to 40 flights. It didn't work. Why would they bring it back?
 
runningonempty
Topic Author
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:04 am

RE: Islip MacArthur (KISP)- What's The Future?

Mon May 12, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 148):
Bingo. It was their primary NYC airport. They had close to 40 flights. It didn't work. Why would they bring it back?

See that's where we disagree. I don't think it didn't work because it couldn't. I think it didn't work because it wasn't Herb Kelleher running the company really anymore. ISP-PVD 4x is only something Herb would do. And honestly, they had enough O&D to do 1x frequency full! He tried JAX, which wasn't really a flop, but they needed utilization elsewhere. BNA, which IIRC was ended after Herb's departure. ORF, which I have no clue about. MDW, only began decline in frequency and ended after Herb left. LAS, which also was ended after Herb. I think that low-fares are powerful, and WN proved that in their early service at ISP. ISP was not and is not a loss for WN, it's just a dormant airport at the moment that can be unleashed with the right formula.

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