Max Q
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How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:37 am

I think this is a very real possibility with the current management. If UA cannot make money now, in this economy then what will happen when things go south.


This may very well be part of managements 'plan' anyway, go through another CH11 and shed billions in debt then bring in a new Ceo and management team.


On thing for sure is this cannot continue.
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Acey559
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:42 am

I think that would be a terrible idea, personally. I think they still have plenty of cash in the bank and I'd assume they would replace the current leadership team before they entertain the idea of yet another bankruptcy.
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phxa340
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:05 am

Just because they are lagging their peers in financial performance they should file BK ? This is a little dramatic. They have had profitable quarters too FYI.
 
burchfiel
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:11 am

Probably about the same time that the business world turns to ANet for impartial, reasoned advice on managing an airline.
 
stlgph
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):

I think this is a very real possibility with the current management.

The current management is sitting pretty right now.

With 7 buy, 5 outperform, and 3 holds versus 2 underperform and 0 sell ratings, coming off the quarter of an est. LPS of
-$1.35 vs. actual -$1.33, with an up coming est. EPS for $2.03 for the next quarter, est. EPS at $2.18 followed by est. EPS at $4.10 for the quarter after that, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be talking anything about bankruptcy.
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United1
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:20 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):

I think this is a very real possibility with the current management. If UA cannot make money now, in this economy then what will happen when things go south.

You do understand that UA is expected to be profitable every quarter this year except for the first and for the year overall?

The possibility of UA filing for BK is almost zero....there is no point and quite frankly there is nothing that a BK filling would fix. UAs issues are not with debt or with employee/vendor contracts which are primarily what BK fillings are used to re-negotiate.
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airportugal310
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting Burchfiel (Reply 3):

Probably about the same time that the business world turns to ANet for impartial, reasoned advice on managing an airline.

And this statement just about sums it up
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Max Q
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:32 am

Cash in the bank only lasts so long when you are making massive losses in the best possible economy.



No one thought Pan Am could fail either. Smisek needs to go in the worst possible way.
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EA CO AS
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:35 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 7):
Cash in the bank only lasts so long when you are making massive losses in the best possible economy.

  

In one quarter of three, with the other three predicted to be wildly profitable.

It's unbelievably premature to discuss Chapter 11 at this stage.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:05 am

It is so super early to discuss bankruptcy. They really are lacking and have major problems, but i don't think this is even a possibility right now. I think united needs an overall leadership change to improve employees attitudes more than anything. The biggest problem i think United has right now is loosing elites and heavy flyers due to so many delays and just cost cutting after cost cutting.

Quoting United1 (Reply 5):
You do understand that UA is expected to be profitable every quarter this year except for the first and for the year overall?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 8):
In one quarter of three, with the other three predicted to be wildly profitable.

Investors are demanding these results. They have had lots of time, things have to change. I could see united disappointing can't you? The leadership at United has horrible attitudes. Virgin America has even turned the corner., United is out of time, they have to deliver now.
 
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:35 am

Okay, you're all right, of course, but MAX Q makes a valid point. And you fanboys just sit on the sidelines for this one, unless you can behave, but United just had the most embarrassing quarterly conference call of all time. Delta? 400 million profit. American? AMERICAN even made hundreds of million$!!! Alaska? Set yet another new record.
And all United has to say for themselves is, "Gee, the weather sure got bad."

MAX Q is right- this cannot be allowed to continue. Both Southwest and AA are in the middle of their own mergers- UA can't use that as an excuse, either. And UA has a fantastic, fairly modern fleet, while DL and AA are both clinging to their MD-80s, domestically, and widebody-wise, it's all about even... 767s, 747s, 777s, with UA having the "game changing" 787.

So, while you're all correct in saying that talk of BK is a bit premature, the point that SOMETHING is very seriously askew in Chicago is well made.
 
strfyr51
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:17 pm

it all depends on the Books they're "cooking". To many inside the company they're crying poor mouth to keep down the possible Union settlements, were they to REALLY state how much they're making?? You can sure Betcha The Unions Dispatchers, Mechanics, Flight Attendants woulld all be demanding MORE. These guys (Management) are Lying through their TEETH !!
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asetiadi
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:23 pm

I never understand something, why US government can't make official airline for USA?

Like SQ, CX, BR, GA, etc...
 
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
The biggest problem i think United has right now is loosing elites and heavy flyers due to so many delays and just cost cutting after cost cutting.

And with a CEO who knows only LCCs it's not going to change.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
United just had the most embarrassing quarterly conference call of all time. Delta? 400 million profit. American? AMERICAN even made hundreds of million$!!! Alaska? Set yet another new record.

Southwest also had a big profit.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
UA has a fantastic, fairly modern fleet

Over-burdened with one-class RJs and a pilot scope clause that makes it hard to do anything about it, which leads to problems dealing with bad weather as well as grumpy elites with no F upgrades.
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etops1
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:33 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 12):

They have one ... It's called American  Wink ...And to add . This post is laughable at best . UA is no where near to filing BK. Yes,they have issues bit I believe they will overcome them and become a very strong competitor to AA and DL.

[Edited 2014-04-26 06:35:55]

[Edited 2014-04-26 06:37:05]
 
commavia
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:56 pm

While I personally do think United appears to be in a pretty bad financial, operational and arguably strategic position today (at least relative to their peer group), I agree that it is way premature to be discussing bankruptcy. Not that having a large cash balance is necessarily mutually exclusive of chapter 11 restructuring (see: AMR, November 2012), but I don't think United is anywhere near the point of seeking bankruptcy yet.

Not to mention - at least from what I have seen and heard here and elsewhere, I'm really not sure what benefit, exactly, bankruptcy would actually provide for the problems United faces. Perhaps giving the company greater leverage to force unified contracts on the unions? Even there, though, bankruptcy seems of questionable usefulness at this point.
 
daviation
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:02 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 11):

Now honestly! That's the silliest thing I've read in a while. Before my retirement, I was the Treasury Director of a famous billion dollar company. You can't 'cook the books' at a publicly held corporation. Heard of Sarbanes Oxley? It's the law passed by Congress after the Enron debacle. The law that changed the lives of every CPA and MBA working at a public company. Besides the countless new regulations that had us working seven days a week, you are now individually liable for prison time if you misstate a financial document. I'm always amazed that people think 'bean counters' sit around thinking of ways to screw the company and the public. Some do, of course, on Wall Street, but they are the exception and many are making license plates now.
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DualQual
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:26 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Over-burdened with one-class RJs and a pilot scope clause that makes it hard to do anything about it, which leads to problems dealing with bad weather as well as grumpy elites with no F upgrades.

A scope clause the company agreed to. A scope clause that if not exactly, very closely mirrors DL. A scope clause that could have been implemented way earlier if management had come to the table ready to bargain and was serious about merging beyond slapping United on everything and calling it complete. The only real limit is self imposed if there is no small mainline jet put in place. I think everyone agrees that more mainline is one of the answers. A C-series order would challenge the DL 717s. Again, the E175s that are just starting to show up could have been arriving a year to 18 months ago if UA had followed DLs lead and gotten things done quickly instead of slow rolling and getting the NMB involved.
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting DualQual (Reply 17):
Again, the E175s that are just starting to show up could have been arriving a year to 18 months ago if UA had followed DLs lead and gotten things done quickly instead of slow rolling and getting the NMB involved.

I agree with where (I think) you are going with this. UA had the longest period in BK and did the least with it. After, management just treaded water till the CO merger was forced on them by Wall Street. Ideally they would have found bolder leadership that would have made some of the bolder moves being made by DL. It's hard now for UA to do such things because they still aren't generating much cash (and thus not generating much confidence in the financial markets) and because they'll have to spend lots to spool up the 'small mainline jet' fleet from scratch.
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eastern747
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:27 pm

The problem with UA is those folks in the Willis Tower will not admit they even have a problem. I'd like to walk out my front door, (yes I live in Chicago), and take a 151 bus south for 15 minutes and have a heart to heart with some of those people. I would be willing to bet the first thing I would find would be lots of bodies sitting around sending e-mails to each other or sitting in "meeting rooms" talking "blue skys". I mean seriously....don't these people take flights, either personal or for business and see just how bad things are?
 
Mitico12
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:10 pm

6B in unrestricted cash can last a year or so. If the company continues to bleed cash through 2014 there will need to be some "line changes" so to speak in order to right the ship.

The conspiracy theorist in me believes that bankruptcy would be a fantastic strategy to dismiss all CBAs with the various work groups and start over from scratch.

However, doing that would put UA at a significant capital/lending disadvantage with creditors that could take years to correct.

I would like to see a "coaching change" for UA.

Allan Mullaly anyone?
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:40 pm

Even though I think Jeff Smisek is teflon, "if" there was going to be a change at the top, Meg Whitman would be a stellar choice.

No matter who is in charge, the employees aren't going to be even remotely happy unless there is a change...for better or worse.
 
IADLHR
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:50 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 19):
The problem with UA is those folks in the Willis Tower will not admit they even have a problem. I'd like to walk out my front door, (yes I live in Chicago), and take a 151 bus south for 15 minutes and have a heart to heart with some of those people. I would be willing to bet the first thing I would find would be lots of bodies sitting around sending e-mails to each other or sitting in "meeting rooms" talking "blue skys". I mean seriously....don't these people take flights, either personal or for business and see just how bad things are?

My brother works one block from Willis Tower and at lunch time, walking to and from work has had some conversations with a few UA employees at various levels in the WT. Apparently, Jeff S and a few others, including board members do indeed take private jets some of the time. My brother doesnt know that many details about the arrangement but many employees in the mid and lower levels do vaguely admit there are several problems with UA or at least dont dispute the growing pax frustration with UA.

[Edited 2014-04-26 09:51:49]
 
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 15):

While I personally do think United appears to be in a pretty bad financial, operational and arguably strategic position today (at least relative to their peer group), I agree that it is way premature to be discussing bankruptcy.

Well said and worth repeating. UA will do ok in 2014. What they won't do is be in a position for growth or long term health.

I'm going to agree with others that it is time for UA to have a coaching change. It might not be a real difference, but their needs to be a reason employee morale shifts and that takes a new 'spokes-model' at the top.   

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 2):
EPS at $2.18 followed by est. EPS at $4.10 for the quarter after that, it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early to be talking anything about bankruptcy.

Concur it is too early. But in this economy, UA should be doing far better. They have time, but UA *must* get their ducks in a row before the next recession. That should be years away... But it will take years to implement the changes.

The patient is sick, but active.

Quoting Burchfiel (Reply 3):

Probably about the same time that the business world turns to ANet for impartial, reasoned advice on managing an airline.

I put the chance of another bad recession higher than that.  
Quoting DualQual (Reply 17):
Again, the E175s that are just starting to show up could have been arriving a year to 18 months ago if UA had followed DLs lead and gotten things done quickly instead of slow rolling and getting the NMB involved.

I'm not sure UA had a choice in that area. Then again, I do not think that is UA's biggest problem.
AA and DL are doing a much better job of catering to the front cabin. UA had that in CO, but it seems as if they are losing their touch.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 9):
The biggest problem i think United has right now is loosing elites and heavy flyers due to so many delays and just cost cutting after cost cutting.

UA 'trapped' enough of their premium fliers in the past they could take them for granted. With the latest round of mergers, too many of those premium fliers are finding they have good alternative choices and now must be given a reason to remain loyal and UA hasn't woken up to that fact shift.

I could only imagine what would happen to UA if the LCCs and DL gained more gates at ORD...
WN at DEN has certainly hurt UA. At least EWR looks secure (for now).

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IADLHR
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
I could only imagine what would happen to UA if the LCCs and DL gained more gates at ORD...
WN at DEN has certainly hurt UA. At least EWR looks secure (for now).

Along this line of thinking I wonder how much damage WN will do to UA when WN starts DCA-MDW later this year. While MDW is by no means ORD with as many connections available but MDW is much closer to downtown Chicago than ORD for Chicago business traffic.

It could get interesting later this year.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:14 pm

C11 was never used to change management and will never be used in future.

Lets go thru what is usually done during C11. Stiffing stockholders is a fair game.

1) Cut down quality of product (already achieved)
2) Charge for add-ons (already achieved)
3) Outsource ops/maintenance (???)
4) Get rid of non-profitable fleet (apparently not much scope)
5) Squeeze bond holders (depends on #3,not much scope)
6) Squeeze lessors. (depends on #3, not much scope)

That leaves "Squeeze employees" as the lone option.

How much more UA can get out of employees thru C11.
 
bmacleod
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:40 pm

From what I understand, the current management looks good. Have to admit thought those gas guzzling 744s are really biting into UA profit margins. and the historic severity of the winter didn't help either.

How many cancellations in total from December to mid-April?
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Italianflyer
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:43 pm

Ok folks, here is a reality check from first hand knowledge and experience: before the airline industry I worked in investment banking. For any management team to INTENTIONALLY guide a publicly traded Company into bankruptcy is not only laughable, but ILLEGAL ( on so many levels I don't know where to begin).

UA has a myriad of problems. Some are structural; highly competitive hub cities, handcuffed by scope clauses, over-reliance on Express flying and an Express fleet designed for the economic reality of 2004, not 2014. Some is cultural; PMUA was not known for it's innovation and soft product creativity. PMCO under Kellner and Smisek was obsessed with cost-cutting and convinced that you can squeeze unit revenue by hacking at base operating costs. Logical idea in theory but in practice (especially in service businesses) you end up walking over dollars to gather dimes. When you mix two organizations where one is committed to the status quo and the other is obsessed with hacking costs and you end up with.....new UA.

In summary, is UCH headed to Ch 11 in the near future? NO. Is UCH more vulnerable to a Black Swan event in comparison to it's peers? YES
 
masseybrown
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 4):
With 7 buy, 5 outperform, and 3 holds versus 2 underperform and 0 sell ratings,

With the stock down from 48 to 39 in the past month, there are at least 12 rueful analysts in that crowd. It was pretty plain during the earnings conference call that several analysts think they have been lied to.

Nevertheless, bankruptcy is out of the question. There are many things that would have to happen first, and to be fair to management, they are doing the right things - those things just aren't happening fast enough.
 
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 16):
Now honestly! That's the silliest thing I've read in a while. Before my retirement, I was the Treasury Director of a famous billion dollar company. You can't 'cook the books' at a publicly held corporation. Heard of Sarbanes Oxley? It's the law passed by Congress after the Enron debacle. The law that changed the lives of every CPA and MBA working at a public company. Besides the countless new regulations that had us working seven days a week, you are now individually liable for prison time if you misstate a financial document. I'm always amazed that people think 'bean counters' sit around thinking of ways to screw the company and the public. Some do, of course, on Wall Street, but they are the exception and many are making license plates now.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I always get annoyed when I hear people talking about "cooking the books." After Enron you just cannot get away with it and unless you want to end up in the Club Fed with a roommate that wants you to call him "Mr. Tickles" you would be nuts to try.

The one thing that conspiracy theorists cannot seem to understand that you cannot get hundreds, if not thousands of people to keep the secret.
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stlgph
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 28):
With the stock down from 48 to 39 in the past month, there are at least 12 rueful analysts in that crowd. It was pretty plain during the earnings conference call that several analysts think they have been lied to.

they're looking at it long term.
in the consensus, there was an expected loss this quarter, and UAL still lost, but beat the loss.
however, long term, UAL has a great position for future long term growth because of its network, cash in the bank, and long term implementation strategy. now is a BUY opportunity for the shares. no one is rueful.

like when Twitter earnings come out on Tuesday, i'm willing to bet the stock takes a hit because of slow user base growth, however, it's positioned itself well for sustainable long term growth in the way its ad revenue work. when the stock takes a hit Tuesday, I'd buy into it, sit back and long term the market cap go from $29B to $40B in say 2-3 years.

case in point, you can't look at immediate performance with these things. if UAL knocks it out by meeting or beating expectations the next 3 quarters, no one at the end of the year is going to care about the 1st quarter.
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DDR
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:27 pm

United is no where near bankruptcy. As others have said, they will be profitable for the next couple of quarters. They certainly have some problems, but eventually they will be worked out.

I know other airlines have merged without these problems, but I think the shear size of the combined company is responsible for many of their current problems. I think they also have not downsized the workforce (corporate side) enough. Eventually this will take care of itself. The best thing UA can do right now is promote itself. Get back the frequent flyers it has lost and invest on its on board product. It needs to set itself apart from other carriers for the right reasons. Right now it has set itself apart for the wrong reasons.

Weren't they bringing back the "friendly skies" campaign? Have they given up on that? There are a few things UA could do that will cost them money, but will bring in revenue:

Provide coach meals for flights operating during mealtimes. This will get them press coverage and the general public will hear "free meals."

Provide free wifi on all flights and in seat video on all aircraft.

Improve the frequent flyer plan. Market Economy Plus more. Advertise more. And most importantly, stop relying on regional jets so damned much. The public has gotten a lot smarter when it comes to RJs. Many people now avoid flying an airline where they will never see the inside of a mainline jet. Yes this will require UA to spend money on mainline aircraft but I truly believe this would pay off in the future. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but UA has to do something to improve its reputation with the traveling public.
 
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:50 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
If UA cannot make money now, in this economy

This economy is still pretty lousy. Once a real recovery gets going, things will improve for UA (and many, many companies) quite dramatically.
 
sldispatcher
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:57 pm

Aside from the absurdity of the question of the OP, I fully realize why some large companies are so difficult to turn around. The "inertia" of the company is so great in one direction, that it is a beast to correct from a culture standpoint.

Top that off with:
-the push to "cut" to profitability
-disparate work groups with their heads up their collective you-know-whats - just how can the FA union chiefs not know the destruction they are helping sow?
-a declining first class product when it wasn't that long ago it could have easily been considered the best in US domestic
-a 3 year delay in addressing the scope clause that appeared that the sCO pilot group was determined to leave the airline at a competitive disadvantage
-the horrific decision to park too many 757's (i.e. capacity)
-a stretched-too-thin and over relied on small lift carrier system with declining operational reliability and an aging fleet that again is about 5 years too late in being addressed
-a corporate allegiance to stock price and not the consumer and apparently not the employee
-a frequent flyer program that should do away with "free" upgrades to all but the higher tiers but no one would want unless they fix the problem of the "snack basket" and the ERJ/CRJ700 "snack box" nightmares
-a once proud international business class product that has been trimmed and hacked to uniformity and sameness
-an over reliance on outsourced gate staff....attention: the people at the ticket counter and gate are the very ones who your passengers will remember as the real face of United - $5/hour difference for better people is not going to break the bank
-and a growing concern over scheduling madness- running A319's from IAH to SEA in the summer? ERJ's to the wealthy area of West Palm Beach?

So do I think they should go financially bankrupt? No. The idea is preposterous.
Have they gone culturally and operationally bankrupt? We'll let the traveling public decide.

Apparently, many already have.
 
alfa164
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 26):
Have to admit thought those gas guzzling 744s are really biting into UA profit margins.

United has a fleet of almost 700 aircraft; 24 of them are 747's; that is hardly enough to make a ripple in operations costs, even if your "gas guzzling" claim were true. As I understand economics, a well-loaded 747 has a lower CASM than more than half the rest of the fleet.

If you believe those "gas guzzling 747s" are the problem... I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you...
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kgaiflyer
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RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 33):
-a frequent flyer program that should do away with "free" upgrades to all but the higher tiers but no one would want unless they fix the problem of the "snack basket" and the ERJ/CRJ700 "snack box" nightmares

Okay - you're going to have to explain that one.

What does the mainline wicker snack basket have to do with profitability?

Btw, I flew ORD-MIA last Saturday morning in seat 2C in a CR7. The snack box beat having nothing at all on such a long flight.
 
catiii
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 11):

So obviously you have no clue about how a publicly traded company's financials work....
 
homer787
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:42 pm

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:40 pm

UA has proven that you can't compare mergers. Just because it took DL so long to integrate, and the perception is that AA / US and WN / FL are ahead of the game is comparing apples and oranges. I think UA will eventually get the kinks out, and be able to turn a profit. As a passenger, I wish that the middle and upper management would make some changes so that the flight attendants and gate agents could smile again. It stinks that they have taken such terrible concessions while management has taken so few.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4445
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:41 pm

United can't report another quarter like this. Its not united versus the economy its united versus their peers. Why were they all able to make record profits and united lost so much. United is also older in its merger, than some, they should be on top right now. United operates from super expensive hubs, but hey they chose them, no excuses anymore......its time to deliver or a total change is needed.
 
sldispatcher
Posts: 365
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:55 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 35):
Okay - you're going to have to explain that one.

What does the mainline wicker snack basket have to do with profitability?

Do you think a 2 1/2 hour flight at a meal time in first class should serve an item out of a wicker basket?

I've had 3 people turn down PAYING for a first class upgrade at time of purchase in the last 3 weeks because "it's not worth it". So there is the possibility that any of those seats went to a "free" upgrade as opposed to actual incremental cash.

On top of that is simple perception of the value of one's business.

I've seen your posts on a.net and have plenty of respect for your opinions. But surely even you have to admit that onboard service in a premium cabin (or lack thereof) can drive demand for that cabin.
Higher Demand = income
Lower Demand = lost opportunity
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2122
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 35):
Btw, I flew ORD-MIA last Saturday morning in seat 2C in a CR7. The snack box beat having nothing at all on such a long flight.

the thing that stands out to me is clearly one of the big problems with UA...IMHO there should be no way at all an airline the size of UA should be flying a plane like the CR7 on a route like ORD-MIA! that's ridiculous.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 12):
never understand something, why US government can't make official airline for USA?

Could never happen. The U.S. is a purely capitalist country and has never had a government owned airline like many other countries. The closest we've ever come to a "flag" carrier was Pan Am, and the U.S. government regulators kept them out of the domestic market (except for a couple of routes, SFO/LAX/SEA-HNL and SEA-FAI come to mind). plus SJU (which is "sort of" domestic. In most other countries, the government owned the main (or only) airline. BEA/BOAC, Air France, Sabena, KLM, Lufthansa, Iberia, SAS all come to mind in Europe, JAL, Philippine, Malaysian, Singapore in Asia, and Qantas (including the former TAA/Australian) and Air New Zealand (TEAL) all are good examples.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 35):
Btw, I flew ORD-MIA last Saturday morning in seat 2C in a CR7. The snack box beat having nothing at all on such a long flight.

the thing that stands out to me is clearly one of the big problems with UA...IMHO there should be no way at all an airline the size of UA should be flying a plane like the CR7 on a route like ORD-MIA! that's ridiculous.


Agreed. I'm flying DFW-SFO on one Monday, and that's about 4 hours.
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2122
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 12):
I never understand something, why US government can't make official airline for USA?

Like SQ, CX, BR, GA, etc...

keep in mind...the US is an expansive land area...whereas many countries, especially Europe, have their own airlines, many of those countries are also the size of some states here in the US. If you look at Europe as a nation like the US, (European Union) its really no different from them having BA, AF, KL, LH etc

CX isnt really comparable...Hong Kong is a part of China, doesn't China have multiple airlines as well?
 
flyfree727
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:11 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting sldispatcher (Reply 39):
I've had 3 people turn down PAYING for a first class upgrade at time of purchase in the last 3 weeks because "it's not worth it".

Areyou a physician or a ticket agent? or both? lol

AA ORD
 
eastern747
Posts: 579
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:34 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:52 pm

I know I really pick on UA alot. The reason is I'm very upset that a once great airline has fallen so fast. The "Friendly Skies" is long gone. The once "Pride Bird with the Golden Tail, is gone". Sure, that was advertising stuff, but still it's images that help sell your product. You think a guy riding a pony chasing a stick makes those clothes better, or an alligator makes it better. Heck NO. But if I walk up to the counter for whatever reason, and I am greeted with a smile, that is positive. Or the gate agent, or boarding agent or F/A. Yes..I'm impressed. passengersBut of course the world has changed too. Ever noticed the traveling public these days. F/A s approach to ask for an order, and they don't even bother to look up. The white wires stuck in the ears. Personal hygene....forget it! And no folks, I don't want to see your nasty sticky feet. SW is not a premium carrier, however they treat everyone as a "customer who pays their salaries". I travel them as a non-rev and I'm amazed at how well I am treated, nor how well I see them treat the customers.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21639
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
And UA has a fantastic, fairly modern fleet,

Not anymore. Other than the 787, they haven't taken a new frame since around 2000. And the PMCO fleet was starting to get a little long in the tooth, too.

They've ordered a fleet renewal, but most of the PMUA fleet was designed before 1980 with the exception of the Airbus, which was designed c.1985. Point is that Allegiant can make a profit with old planes, so can WN (which has a mix of new and old).

New planes don't save *that* much money overall because unless an airline can drop several $Bn in cash, there are either lease or loan payments on those shiny new frames. What new fleets do is burn less fuel, break less (once the kinks are ironed out), and use less maintenance, so they are cheaper to operate. But you have to operate them all day long to make money because the fixed ownership costs (payments) are high. With an old fleet that's completely paid down, they cost next to nothing to own but they cost more money to operate. This means that they are more flexible aircraft that can be, say, parked in the desert when times get lean, or allowed to sit on a ramp somewhere as a spare. You can't park a brand-new 788 in the desert because times got lean. You need to park your old, paid-down frames.

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 22):
Apparently, Jeff S and a few others, including board members do indeed take private jets some of the time.

That should be against corporate policy. An industry standard Airline corporate policy is (and should be) that, where possible, all execs take company metal and that a certain percentage of the time they must fly in Y. Richard Branson flew Y when he flew with his kids. "If it's good enough for our customers..." Also probably trying to not spoil them rotten.

At some airlines, execs are mandated to fly a certain number of trips on competition metal in various classes (which makes sense).

It's really bad when the senior execs act this way. It makes it appear that their own product is not good enough for them.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 26):
Have to admit thought those gas guzzling 744s are really biting into UA profit margins.

I never imagined the day when the 744, once the queen of modern efficiency, became a "gas guzzler," but I suppose those days have come. But DL still operates those "guzzlers" and they're sitting pretty. So does BA.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 12):
I never understand something, why US government can't make official airline for USA?

1) We don't do government-run for-profit companies other than maybe the Post Office.

2) We're too big, both in population and in geographic area, for a single national airline.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
newhaven
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 9:26 pm

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 35):
Btw, I flew ORD-MIA last Saturday morning in seat 2C in a CR7. The snack box beat having nothing at all on such a long fligh

its the same crap that comes out of a VENDING MACHINE. do you conider THAT First Class in any way ?

(and .. ORD-MIA in a CRJ?? what ??!)
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 45):
Pride Bird with the Golden Tail

I believe that's 'PROUD bird with the Golden Tail'
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18691
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: How Long Before United Files For Bankruptcy?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 24):
I wonder how much damage WN will do to UA when WN starts DCA-MDW later this year. While MDW is by no means ORD with as many connections available but MDW is much closer to downtown Chicago than ORD for Chicago business traffic.

I wonder myself. The changes at DCA will certainly have an impact. I'm not thinking nearly as significant and WN invading DEN though... For now WN has more to build up at DAL, which doesn't impact UA so much...

Quoting ItalianFlyer (Reply 27):
over-reliance on Express flying and an Express fleet designed for the economic reality of 2004, not 2014.

I concur on this issue. However, I think UA has more of an issue with meeting premium passenger expectations. "Walking over dollars to save dimes" was well said above...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):

Quoting IADLHR (Reply 22):
Apparently, Jeff S and a few others, including board members do indeed take private jets some of the time.

That should be against corporate policy. An industry standard Airline corporate policy is (and should be) that, where possible, all execs take company metal and that a certain percentage of the time they must fly in Y. Richard Branson flew Y when he flew with his kids. "If it's good enough for our customers..." Also probably trying to not spoil them rotten.

Sometimes business jets are needed for the privacy of negotiation. However, I would hope the executives spend time in their own Y product as well as the competitions to see how they 'rack and stack.' Some time in the competitions' J class product too.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
ut you have to operate them all day long to make money because the fixed ownership costs (payments) are high. With an old fleet that's completely paid down, they cost next to nothing to own but they cost more money to operate. This means that they are more flexible aircraft that can be, say, parked in the desert when times get lean, or allowed to sit on a ramp somewhere as a spare. You can't park a brand-new 788 in the desert because times got lean. You need to park your old, paid-down frames.

Which is why most airlines need a mix of old and new. DL has the MD-80s... but soon the 738s will be depreciated enough to be parked on the days demand is lower. Not necessarily the desert. e.g., it could just be a Tuesday...

Lightsaber
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