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aircanada014
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Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:49 pm

Of all the 3 major airlines UA, AA and DL seems DL is doing very well after the merger, they are making progress especially with
profits and good products and service so my question what is keeping Delta back for not being 4 Star Airline? I think they deserve
to be in the line with Air Canada 4 Star Airline. I'm planning to fly on Delta this coming June from HNL to NRT and booked the seats
upstairs outbound and downstairs in front of the nose section inbound. So far only Air Canada in North America is the 4 Star Airlines.
I think AA could be the 2nd US carrier to be 4 Star too down the road?
 
questions
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:56 pm

1. Perceptions, true or not, deserved or undeserved, of US airlines outside the US

2. If you're referring to SkyTrax "4-star" I'm not sure US airlines believe there is a correlation between rating and financial performance
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 1):

With Skytrax, there is no relationship between the star rating and anything except advertising revenue they receive from an airline.

There is really no objective rating service for airlines that I have seen.
 
goldorak
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:06 pm

Skytrax ratings are nowhere linked with financial performance. I believe DL is 3 stars because of a lack of long-haul 1st class product and lack of any luxury service on the ground (and in the air).
 
PDPsol
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:12 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 1):
1. Perceptions, true or not, deserved or undeserved, of US airlines outside the US

This perception is only improving with time, as the "big three global network" carriers enhance products and services, invest in new routes and equipment, and deliver recurring financial returns to their investors.

DL and AA are at the forefront of this, while UA is finding slip-up after slip-up delaying its financial, commercial and operational transformation. The three U.S. "mega-carriers" are financial behemoths; DL alone has a market capitalization exceeding USD 30 billion and a Firm value approaching USD 39 billion. Compare this to LH Group, with a market capitalizaiton of USD 12 billion, or AF/KL Group at USD 4.5 billion and IAG at USD 13.6 billion.

DL, AA and even UA will all offer service levels and products competitive with top European, Asian, Latin American and Middle Eastern carriers in the near future as they fight for high-yielding premium traffic.
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting PDPsol (Reply 4):
DL, AA and even UA will all offer service levels and products competitive with top European, Asian, Latin American and Middle Eastern carriers in the near future as they fight for high-yielding premium traffic.

So why has it taken so long? Pan Am in its hay day was A1


[Edited 2014-04-27 11:36:35]
 
G500
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:24 pm

I've flown on many airlines around the world

As far as U.S airlines, i think DL is the best one. But when you compare it to the other top airlines in the world, there is no comparison.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:52 pm

Skytrax or not, I can't rank any of the US big 3 in 4star or 5star ranges once you've flown international carriers

Doing well financially doesn't make an airline a great one to fly. DL and VX are exact opposites on this.

As a passenger, an airline printing billions won't help me if prices are kept high and standards are kept low.
 
ozglobal
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 6):

I've flown on many airlines around the world

As far as U.S airlines, i think DL is the best one. But when you compare it to the other top airlines in the world, there is no comparison.
Quoting PDPsol (Reply 4):

Quoting questions (Reply 1):
1. Perceptions, true or not, deserved or undeserved, of US airlines outside the US

This perception is only improving with time, as the "big three global network" carriers enhance products and services, invest in new routes and equipment, and deliver recurring financial returns to their investors.

I agree that the hard product on several US majors is currently making a quantum leap (although it will be a couple of years before they have anything like J product consistency fleet wide with the new cabins), however, the soft product still depends on a somewhat jaded, ageing and war-weary cabin crew (lost 401Ks etc). Until they lift the morale of their crews, the improvements can only be partial.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:09 pm

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 5):
So why has t taken so long?

It is not taking DL [or AA or UA] "so long" to achieve parity with top global carriers. DL closed its merger in 2008, only 6 years ago, while UA closed in 2010 and AA only 5 months ago. It takes many years, over 5, for merged firms to fully realize commercial and operational efficiency synergies. We are still in the very early rounds of a multi-year transformation for these carriers.

The global commercial aviation market will only become more competitive, with new entrants and further growth. In addition, policy-makers around the world are finally realizing the importance of market liberalization. Over time, as governments understand the importance of cross-border competition, they will permit foreign control and ownership of their national carriers, spurring greater efficiency and investment.
 
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mayor
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
Doing well financially doesn't make an airline a great one to fly. DL and VX are exact opposites on this.

As a passenger, an airline printing billions won't help me if prices are kept high and standards are kept low.

Bleeding millions doesn't help things, either.





BTW, I'm just curious......how many of these terrific 4 star global carriers maintain a true domestic network as well as their international network as the U.S. legacies do?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
tyler81190
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
BTW, I'm just curious......how many of these terrific 4 star global carriers maintain a true domestic network as well as their international network as the U.S. legacies do?

A domestic operation is not always necessary... SQ for example has no domestic flights, they have no other domestic airports. VS, another high quality airline has until recently, had no domestic operation but still carried millions of passengers.

The true meaning of a 4 or 5 star airline is 4 and 5 star SERVICE. You can have an airline that flies to every airport on the planet, but serves nothing except crackers on board, or you could have a smaller niche airline that provides car service to/from airport and home, and a lounge at the airport, with a caviar service prior to the meal service inflight. Which is the 5 star carrier?
 
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:37 pm

Let's get one thing straight. American airlines (thankfully) cannot be bias in their hiring process like just about all those 5-star airlines. Meaning Delta can't hire by a woman's measurements and then fire them if she gets older than 25, etc. But there are a lot of other things Delta could do that don't involve hiring practices.
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rwy04lga
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:48 pm

What's the point of being a '4 star' airline? The ME3 and the tiny city-state airlines/fanboys will just call themselves '5 star' airlines simply to look more impressive.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:12 am

I think Delta couldn't care less what star rating they are. Its all about making money, improving efficiency, and reducing problems for the customers.

Delta has a great balance of hubs. They hand selected the most profitable hubs in the merger and have a great balance of different hubs in different weather and geographical areas.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting goldorak (Reply 3):
I believe DL is 3 stars because of a lack of long-haul 1st class product

AC eliminated F class service about 30 years ago but is 4 stars in the Skytrax ratings (which are best ignored).
 
Flighty
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:26 am

That's correct, as good as AA and DL make their hard product longhaul, there are 2 unique things about USA airlines:
1. Labor Laws
2. Massive domestic market networks + backstabbing competition

Which mean it is neither fair nor relevant to compare the best global longhaul carriers to the USA megas. The closest comparison is to European majors.

Thanks to reduced competition intra US, the investment into longhaul product will continue, and AA/DL will make great progress. On hard product, the Americans can now take all comers in terms of hard product investment (at the seat / decor level). Not saying A380s will come, but interiors should make the 4+ star level in international.

As SR Branson recently said (in reference to Virgin hotels), airlines and hotels have MUCH in common in terms of business attributes. America has know-how to create 5 star hotels and staff and maintain them as well as anyone. Airlines can leverage those talents IF they have any money to spend, and now they do. But due to (1) and (2) above, the next down cycle could take our airlines right back basically to hell. About when Spirit gets their 100th widebody...  

[Edited 2014-04-27 18:35:32]
 
hz747300
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:44 am

I agree the hard product is much better and improving in the premium cabins, but to me it is the service. That is the issue I have with US airlines. I am delighted when I am greeted and served by someone who loves their job and feels it is a service business and behaves as such. Very rare in the US, but more likely on Delta than on US Airways (the new American!).

When I first moved to Hong Kong eight years ago, my big complaint with Cathay was the indifferent nature of the service. Cathay, to me, has made a remarkable turnaround here. It makes a big difference.

And it is not that hard, but it starts at the top. However, I think it may be too far gone for US carriers.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 11):
A domestic operation is not always necessary... SQ for example has no domestic flights, they have no other domestic airports. VS, another high quality airline has until recently, had no domestic operation but still carried millions of passengers.

I didn't say it was necessary for everyone to have a domestic network, BUT, for the purposes of this discussion, the 4 and 5 star carriers should certainly have both international AND domestic service if you're going to start comparing them.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
S75752
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:04 am

What's so special about DL at the moment?

I've flown them a few times (domestically, economy) in the past year, and it seemed the same as most other legacy domestic services in every way I can think of. Nothing particularly great or bad that I could note. No power, no IFE, baggage got there intact, flight attendants were friendly and efficient. Felt the same as UA, US, AA, WN.

I do quite admire that they are taking great care with their international fleet enhancements though, especially the 744's.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:15 am

Quoting aircanada014 (Thread starter):

Delta (and American once mods are done, other than the cheap out on the 767) will have the hard product comparable to anyone.
However, Delta's soft product is lacking still, IMO, but is getting better slowly.

But they won't ever been a 4 star because they won't pay to be one. Skytrax is a joke. I'm glad delta doesn't waste money on it.

Quoting sierra3tango (Reply 5):

Simple. Overcapacity in the market place.

Oh and like some "5-Star" airlines the US carrier don't get oil money.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):

  what is exactly better about DL J or AA J and LH J? Or AF?

Hard product wise the US carriers are using the same seats as airlines like LX and CX. Soft product may be a little behind but I have yet to have a single flight on a non-US airline where I was simply blown away.


And please, other examples than the "EK/SQ first." Those products aren't comparable because they simply don't work in the US outside of a hand full of markets.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 14):

They don't. Delta is investing in it product and making great money. That's what matters.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:17 am

Experience for bulk of passengers (which fly economy) is rather horrendous at Delta like other major US carriers.

If any deserve higher ranking in US skies, its folks like Virgin America, JetBlue or even Southwest which actually work to offer positive experience to their clients.
mercure f-wtcc
 
q120
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting aircanada014 (Thread starter):
to be in the line with Air Canada 4 Star Airline

Hard to believe that Air Canada is a 4 star airline. But anyways... I enjoyed my Delta flights and thought that the service and overall on board product is similar or exceeds Air Canada, especially on board meals, Air Canada should be ashamed of the quality of some of their on board meals.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 19):

IFE is on the way for around half the fleet.
 
smi0006
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:42 am

I would challenge anyone who suggest labour laws, and a domestic network are a stoping US carriers from becoming 4-5star airlines. QF and VA have exceptional service, highly expensive equal opportunity labour laws, a large domestic network, and a sparse populace- and no bankruptcy protection. Whilst a smaller network domestically, but also a smaller population, and a larger longhual network is add NZ to the same quality group. Even JQ offers better service than most us carriers.

The perception of US carrier by Australians has yet to change, maybe in 5-10years but it is still in read my poor atm.
 
jetwet1
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
With Skytrax, there is no relationship between the star rating and anything except advertising revenue they receive from an airline.

There is really no objective rating service for airlines that I have seen.

Really, the whole thread could have ended with that post.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
Skytrax or not, I can't rank any of the US big 3 in 4star or 5star ranges once you've flown international carriers

Doing well financially doesn't make an airline a great one to fly. DL and VX are exact opposites on this.

As a passenger, an airline printing billions won't help me if prices are kept high and standards are kept low.

This is also true, while DL (and other US based airlines) have made great strides of late, it's really not that hard to improve from where they were.
 
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mayor
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:50 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 24):
I would challenge anyone who suggest labour laws, and a domestic network are a stoping US carriers from becoming 4-5star airlines. QF and VA have exceptional service, highly expensive equal opportunity labour laws, a large domestic network, and a sparse populace- and no bankruptcy protection. Whilst a smaller network domestically, but also a smaller population, and a larger longhual network is add NZ to the same quality group. Even JQ offers better service than most us carriers.

Surely you can't be serious......"a large domestic network" in comparison to the U.S.? In Australia OR New Zealand?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
AF185
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:00 am

I think DL's hard product is pretty good, especially on their 777's. But the issue is the inconsistency within the fleet, I had some rough experiences on long haul B747's and B767's which brought back memories of flying in the 90's  
Though I am aware they're being progressively refurbished..

Service is professional generally speaking, but the overall staff attitude remains too inattentive to details to be considered as 4*, like all american carriers
 
Flighty
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 24):
The perception of US carrier by Australians has yet to change, maybe in 5-10years but it is still in read my poor atm.

US airlines are certainly doing a lot better than Australian ones at the moment. I think Australia must agree that running a fine airline is not easy and is subject to periodic restructuring, unless it is a monopoly flag carrier with no labor laws. Agree that Australia faces similar things to the US.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:17 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 21):

If any deserve higher ranking in US skies, its folks like Virgin America, JetBlue or even Southwest which actually work to offer positive experience to their clients

Absolutely. There is a great deal of value to be had and a lot of decent to above average customer service in the US domestic market. You just will not ever see that in a legacy.

The problem is that other than WN, you need to live on a coast to make full use of this, and that's where the more recent LCCs really struggle. Living in Los Angeles county, it's very easy for me to avoid legacies and come out pretty far ahead financially (in any domestic class). But even in Chicago, this becomes much harder, and flying AA or UA becomes an unfortunate fact of life for most.

Quoting mayor (Reply 18):

I didn't say it was necessary for everyone to have a domestic network, BUT, for the purposes of this discussion, the 4 and 5 star carriers should certainly have both international AND domestic service if you're going to start comparing them.

In all honesty, you did imply the hell out of that. In any case...

For what reason, anywhere at all, should a paying customer take that into consideration? After enough bad experiences with AA to make it clear that it wasn't just a few bad trips, I pretty much swore off legacies altogether last year. That was over 160,000 miles ago, and I haven't been given a good reason to look back since. Thanks to a combination of alliances and a plethora of routes handled by AS, B6, WN, & VX, there simply isn't a need for me to put up with a soft product that could easily ruin a QR cabin.

So when you say "well those other guys don't have a giant network to handle", I say back to you "Who cares. " The problem is that there are a lot of HVCs who've figured out how to get around that and aren't coming back. I'm fully aware that there's a decent profit margin for some of the legacies now (due much more to consolidation and elimination of competition than product offerings), and a vibrant echo chamber of denial here, but I'm seeing my habits increase a lot among the coastal road warrior community. The next few years will be very telling.


As for DL in particular, I will readily admit that they are doing more than any of the other legacies at this point, and in fact I think that's likely to continue. I do like that they are A LOT more proactive in a lot of soft product areas than the other two, and yes, there is a great deal less of the apathy and just plain bitterness that too many customer facing employees from your Chicago and Fort Worth based competitors supply us with.

But they're still more expensive to fly and offer a sub par hard product in too many areas to ignore. And I think that's where the wheels really start to fall off the 4 Star train, though I do probably share your views on SkyTrax.

It's an unfortunate proof that it's pointless to brag about hard or soft products until they're both solidly and consistently in the same league. I know no one seems to want VX to live these days, but this is something they consistently nail, despite being very small.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 14):

I think Delta couldn't care less what star rating they are. Its all about making money, improving efficiency, and reducing problems for the customers.

I think that's a very fair statement. DL does great at the first two, and tries very hard at the last. I think if there were no VX, B6, WN, or AS (No, don't get any ideas, DL!) or I didn't live in a major int'l market with buckets of choices, DL would be my choice. I will say I've always thought they do great on IRROPS, for what it's worth.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
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homer787
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:20 am

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 24):
I would challenge anyone who suggest labour laws, and a domestic network are a stoping US carriers from becoming 4-5star airlines. QF and VA have exceptional service, highly expensive equal opportunity labour laws, a large domestic network, and a sparse populace- and no bankruptcy protection. Whilst a smaller network domestically, but also a smaller population, and a larger longhual network is add NZ to the same quality group. Even JQ offers better service than most us carriers.

QF has 21 domestic routes and 20 international routes. DL has 225 domestic destinations and 97 international destinations. They fly to more places in California than QF flies to in the ENTIRE continent of Australia. When you fly to that many places from 7 domestic hubs, the planes get smaller, first class goes away on certain flights, and you compete on ticket price instead of service.
 
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mayor
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:55 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 29):
In all honesty, you did imply the hell out of that. In any case...

That was not my implication......what I was getting at is that if you're going to compare service, etc. between the U.S. legacies and the 4 and 5 star carriers.....those latter carriers better have a comparable domestic system or the argument just isn't fair.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 29):
but this is something they consistently nail, despite being very small.

Much, much easier to do when you're small.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 30):
QF has 21 domestic routes and 20 international routes. DL has 225 domestic destinations and 97 international destinations. They fly to more places in California than QF flies to in the ENTIRE continent of Australia. When you fly to that many places from 7 domestic hubs, the planes get smaller, first class goes away on certain flights, and you compete on ticket price instead of service.

        


Exactly
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
infinit
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:51 am

This question is in retrospect a bit like "what's keeping McDonalds from becoming a Michelin Star restaurant?"

I don't think DL (or UA or AA) cares how Skytrax ranks them. DL flies to over 300 locations . They compete on their vast network from which they'd benefit from scale, hence competing on price too.

Most would agree that the soft product on DL and most American carriers are poor. I firmly believe this boils down to training and how staff are treated, their remuneration etc. Now that DL is doing extremely well financially, hopefully they invest more in their staff.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:37 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
That's correct, as good as AA and DL make their hard product longhaul, there are 2 unique things about USA airlines:
1. Labor Laws

There are many 4 Star Airlines in countries with labor laws just as tough or tougher than in the USA.

The Skytrax ratings are based on the follwoing:

GROUND / AIRPORT
Airline Website
Airport Ticket Counters
Check In - self-serve & staffed counters
Airline Lounges - First Class/Business Class/FFP lounges
Arrival Lounges
Boarding services
Transfer services
Arrival services
Delay / incident handling

CABIN SERVICES
Cabin Seating
Cabin Safety Procedures
Cabin Cleanliness
Cabin Comfort Amenities
Cabin Announcements
Onboard Catering
Duty Free Service
Newspapers & Magazines
Airline Magazine
Inflight Entertainment
Cabin Staff Service

Pretty/Young FAs are none of the requirements.

Cabin Staff Service, Cabin Seating & Onboard Catering carry the most weight, Airline Magazine, Ticket counters and Arrival Services the least.

best regards
Thomas
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S75752
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:58 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 23):
IFE is on the way for around half the fleet.

I know that the International widebody and intl 757 fleet has full IFE, or at least mostly, but is the domestic fleet getting IFE? (minus the RJ's)
 
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777Jet
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:19 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 6):
I've flown on many airlines around the world

As far as U.S airlines, i think DL is the best one. But when you compare it to the other top airlines in the world, there is no comparison.

I'll second that!

I've flown a lot of intl carriers and many 4 star carriers leave DL for dead. As far as what I expect from an airline I'd rate the DL experience somewhere in the middle.
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 26):
Surely you can't be serious

He specifically clarified his comment by saying "smaller network domestically", yet you chose to pick up on one part of his statement.

I think he was referring more to geographical size, and Australia isn't much smaller than the Lower 48.

Quoting homer787 (Reply 30):
They fly to more places in California than QF flies to in the ENTIRE continent of Australia

And there's probably more cities in California than on the entire continent of Australia.

Australia is a tiny market of 22mn, and is the 19th largest economy in the world. The USA has 350mn, and is the largest economy in the world. There is no comparison in terms of size of market.

There is comparison, however, in terms of labor (Australia is a significantly more expensive place to hire than the USA) and many other "legacy" factors.

QF and NZ are two legacy carriers that do stand in stark contrast to some US ones. While the markets are different, the fundamental businesses aren't too far apart.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:25 am

Quoting homer787 (Reply 30):
QF has 21 domestic routes and 20 international routes

I should have checked this before replying above, but this is totally inaccurate.

QF fly to 23 destinations in the state of Queensland alone.

Add 10 in New South Wales/ACT, 3 in Victoria, 3 in Tasmania, 3 in South Australia, 9 in Western Australia, and 4 in Northern Territory and you get 32 destinations. By my count, these 32 destinations are served by 122 distinct route pairs.

Still nothing compared to the USA, but much more than you suggest.

[Edited 2014-04-28 02:27:43]

[Edited 2014-04-28 02:34:02]
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:49 am

I rate Delta as a 5 star airline. Sofar my objective rating /sarcasm. My opinion about Delta is as good and reliable as Skytrax. Just because they have the name it doesn't mean they aren't a fraud. Airlines should not be advertising the Skytrax rating as true.

Airlines shouldn't be rated with a star system. Mostly it comes down to you get what you pay for for the rest they're all the same. They get you from A to B.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:55 am

Quoting plane holland (Reply 38):
Mostly it comes down to you get what you pay for for the rest they're all the same. They get you from A to B.

And how do you know what you get for? Skytrax has the same value to the traveler as Tripadvisor has. You get an idea what level of service you can expect for your money, yield management systems make 3 Star Airlines being more expensive than a 4 or 5 Star one quite commonly.
For example i can agree with the Skystrax rating for Delta and KLM, as i have flown several times on both. KLM is (for me, subjective) the better airline, but not always more expensive. Until i just looked it up, i wasn´t aware that KLM also has a better rating.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VC10er
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:32 am

I work for a company who works with United. Albeit small project. Their stated GOAL is to get to a 4 star rating. My last trip was last Thurs, EWR to GIG. It is a VERY mixed experience: EWR entry 2, GS Check in 5, lounge 1, on board: service was 3.5 (almost 4), Food 3, IFE 4, BusinessFirst seat is a 2.5. It was a good flight, nothing to complain about. But they are far from a 4 when their mega lounge is like a 1980's Marriott lobby, horrible food options with artwork that's a -9. This after a 5 star check-in for GF and GS.
The NEW London lounge is beautiful, how come it's in London and not state side?

* I will admit the FA's across DL, AA and UA are getting much better, but they are running around and bumping into each other like Keystone cops. I just can't see that happening on LH or SQ.

They should divide each customer "touch-point", put in a chief of each and give them a decent budget and when needed, employee engagement & training.

Hey: what ever happened to napkin art on United?
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
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par13del
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:33 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
BTW, I'm just curious......how many of these terrific 4 star global carriers maintain a true domestic network as well as their international network as the U.S. legacies do?
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 29):
For what reason, anywhere at all, should a paying customer take that into consideration?
Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 33):
CABIN SERVICESCabin Seating

US carriers have larger domestic markets and have chosen to provide more service to that market. Now service can be at any level and is a good metric, however, I do not see the US carriers being able to compete on cabin seating.
Transcon flights are long haul in the US in terms of distance and time flying, however, they are still domestic and if flown with a/c configured for long haul international flights would render the product too expensive and thus shrink the market.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:40 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 41):
US carriers have larger domestic markets and have chosen to provide more service to that market. Now service can be at any level and is a good metric, however, I do not see the US carriers being able to compete on cabin seating.
Transcon flights are long haul in the US in terms of distance and time flying, however, they are still domestic and if flown with a/c configured for long haul international flights would render the product too expensive and thus shrink the market.

For that reason skytrax makes a distinction between the stage length/markets the airlines flies. LH, as one of the European 4-Star Airlines, doesn´t even offer a business-class seat on short and short medium-haul flights that can be 6 hours long. All you get is a blocked middle seat on the same slim line seat everyone else is sitting on, yet they get 4 Stars.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:09 am

If DL were to put cleaners on board its long-haul aircraft, it may be able to get close to four stars. The toilets need to be cleaned every 30 min to an hour and the trash taken out, but that doesn't happen on DL flights. In the cabin, trash sits everywhere, yet flight attendants are not aggressive about getting it up. Perhaps they should distribute fewer wrapped products in the first place so less plastic is stuffed in seat pockets and under the seat, but people are obsessed with hygiene. Also, I am not sure DL can continue to fly so many 767 aircraft and attain four stars. The refurbished ones are fine, but they still cannot compete with the A330s or 777s in terms of space and comfort. Perhaps getting rid of the hospital blue seat covers and putting a larger variety of colors and lights in the aircraft would help with perceptions as well.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
Quoting homer787 (Reply 30):
QF has 21 domestic routes and 20 international routes

I should have checked this before replying above, but this is totally inaccurate.

QF fly to 23 destinations in the state of Queensland alone.

Add 10 in New South Wales/ACT, 3 in Victoria, 3 in Tasmania, 3 in South Australia, 9 in Western Australia, and 4 in Northern Territory and you get 32 destinations. By my count, these 32 destinations are served by 122 distinct route pairs.

Still nothing compared to the USA, but much more than you suggest.

              

I don't know how one could come up with that 21 domestic route figure for QF as, like you evidenced, is so so far from being true...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
bobnwa
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:05 pm

What 4 star rating are you talking about? I would like to look at the list.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 45):
What 4 star rating are you talking about? I would like to look at the list.
http://www.airlinequality.com/

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 18):
I didn't say it was necessary for everyone to have a domestic network, BUT, for the purposes of this discussion, the 4 and 5 star carriers should certainly have both international AND domestic service if you're going to start comparing them.

I don't see how network breadth is an excuse for lower star quality. That 300+ destination route map isn't going to help a biz-class passenger going Delhi to New York choosing between DL/AF or BA or LH ... he's going to rate on schedule, servicing quality, then price (much less price sensitive) ... occasionally on alliance loyalty

A good airline wins the hometown market and the hub captives (eg DL). A great airline beats the foreign competition at their turf (eg NH).

If network breadth and first class is the determinant of star rating, then UA (with a larger number of destinations than both DL and AA/US) would be ahead by now    
 
tommy1808
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 18):
I didn't say it was necessary for everyone to have a domestic network, BUT, for the purposes of this discussion, the 4 and 5 star carriers should certainly have both international AND domestic service if you're going to start comparing them.

5 of the 7 5-Star Airlines have a domestic network, Hainan Airlines is not small, ANA´s and Asianas are fairly extensive giving the small size of their home countries, MAS has 118 domestic routes. Even Qatar flies domestic iirc.

Singapore Airlines, Cathay will have a hard time with domestic flights unless they open some helicopter service.

So having a domestic network does not exclude you from providing a good customer experience.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
avek00
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RE: Whats Keeping Delta Not Being 4 Star Airline?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:22 pm

Pay no mind to the star rankings...as others have correctly, noted, they have decreasing relevance to the objective facts of an airline's longhaul product offerings.

These rankings are doled out by people who are stuck in the airline world as it existed in 2006.
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