Well, I suppose this is finally happening... Much to many peoples' joy/agony.
http://www.ausbt.com.au/air-india-to-join-star-alliance-in-july
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Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
This is the umpteenth time it is 'finally happening'. With AI you can never be sure.
Fingers not crossed.
Fingers not crossed.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
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- Independence76
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
I understand Star Alliance has their plans announced, but until we see their name officially on their list, the same quote stands:
"It's not over 'til it's over."
"It's not over 'til it's over."
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- toxtethogrady
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
The question is does AI finally have their s*it together?
Come to think of it, does UA?
Come to think of it, does UA?
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 3): The question is does AI finally have their s*it together? Come to think of it, does UA? |
No and no, at least for now, so it's a better match than in the past. The customer experience between AI and UA is more consistent than it was three years ago. Let's allow customers to judge for themselves whether that's good.
My favorite comment is this: "Asked what has changed three years down the track, Schwab said the airline was 'a different Air India.' " - One could say the same for *A, their recent losses in South America and the US suggest they need to make a move as much as AI does. Bleeding members has thus far always resulted in drives to add new ones to look better.
[Edited 2014-04-30 14:02:19]
2020: AMS | ATL | BRU | DAL | DEN | DFW | EWR | FRA | GUA | IAH | LAX | LIM | MCO | MUC | ORD | PTY | SAL | SCL | SFO | TPA | TXL
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
AI has three major issues for bleeding cash.
1) Most senior pilots won't fly. They just collect paychecks. There are too many of them.
2) Wide body fetish. They have at least excess of 7x77Ws, 3x77Ls. On top 14 x B788s on their way. With this stupidly they don't have money to buy narrow bodies.
3) Too many real estate assets.
In 18-24 months they will loose 1/3 of workforce (including all non-flying pilots). If they can sell 10xT7s and real estate they will be in good shape.
Until then even if everyone else works hard it is not going to break even. Wide body fetish is an Indian thing I guess, even 9W has this problem.
[Edited 2014-04-30 14:44:32]
1) Most senior pilots won't fly. They just collect paychecks. There are too many of them.
2) Wide body fetish. They have at least excess of 7x77Ws, 3x77Ls. On top 14 x B788s on their way. With this stupidly they don't have money to buy narrow bodies.
3) Too many real estate assets.
In 18-24 months they will loose 1/3 of workforce (including all non-flying pilots). If they can sell 10xT7s and real estate they will be in good shape.
Until then even if everyone else works hard it is not going to break even. Wide body fetish is an Indian thing I guess, even 9W has this problem.
[Edited 2014-04-30 14:44:32]
All posts are just opinions.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 3): The question is does AI finally have their s*it together? Come to think of it, does UA? |
It's a situation of evolve or die. Star is desperate to get some leverage in India. A380s via LH and SQ.
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- jetblue1965
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting irishayes (Reply 6): It's a situation of evolve or die. Star is desperate to get some leverage in India. A380s via LH and SQ. |
from the article :
"Star Alliance is reported to have only a 13% share of the country's total international traffic, with rivals OneWorld and SkyTeam holding 8% each."
the largest share is now considered "desperate" ?
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- 747megatop
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7): the largest share is now considered "desperate" ? |
the big competitors aren't in those alliances.
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lightsaber
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
Congrats to AI. Joining *A will help their finances. From the articles I've read, *A has been really testing AI and the improvements are notable.
I'm normally a cynic, but this time it seems like it really will happen!
Do they have 10X 777s for sale? I'm aware of 3 more... not Ten...
They could sell the real estate. The question is will they (get through the process).
I'll believe it when I see it about that much work force reduction. I doubt that will really happen.
Lightsaber
I'm normally a cynic, but this time it seems like it really will happen!
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 5): In 18-24 months they will loose 1/3 of workforce (including all non-flying pilots). If they can sell 10xT7s and real estate they will be in good shape. |
Do they have 10X 777s for sale? I'm aware of 3 more... not Ten...
They could sell the real estate. The question is will they (get through the process).
I'll believe it when I see it about that much work force reduction. I doubt that will really happen.
Lightsaber
I cannot wait to get vaccinated to live again! Warning: I simulated that it takes 50%+ vaccinated to protect the vaccinated and 75%+ vaccinated to protect the vac-hesitant.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
I hope that Star doesn't admit AI into its stable of airlines but they seem to admit any and all airlines to try to get reach no matter what kind of service they have or their financial affairs in order,
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
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- jetblue1965
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): Do they have 10X 777s for sale? I'm aware of 3 more... not Ten... |
No they don't. I think they should sell all but 7x77Ws. GoI should let go the concept of getting book value and accept FMV. FAA downgrade is not going to end until next Republican administration, so starting new US stations is remote possibility. That should cap 77Ws at 7. They will have enough 788s to cover SE Asia and ME. They are not a oil rich, premium pax carrier to use 77Ws and 77Ls on ME routes.
Their brilliant fleet plan has 50xWBs and 39xNBs. It should be 20-30xWBs and 70-80 NBs.
27xB788s, 12(15)xB77Ws, 3xB77Ls, 5xB744s
19xA319s, 20xA321s, (22xA320 classics costing too much to maintain and are not fuel efficient)
| Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10): I'll believe it when I see it about that much work force reduction. I doubt that will really happen. |
8,000 of 23,000 will retire in next ~24 months. One of the reasons they cannot offer buyout package.
It was 26,000 last year
Air India (AI,AIX) 5,000 (flight, cabin)
Air India Air Transport Services Limited (AIATSL) 12,000 (Ticket,gate,ramp and cargo agents)
Air India Engineering Services limited (AIESL) 9,000 (MRO, LM)
All posts are just opinions.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
I will say, this does sound like it should be interesting if it does in fact succeed (this time).
Perhaps it may aid the US-India route troubles, with the new connection infrastructure in both places?
On a more wishful thinking note, I'd like to think that this could eventually, through some chain of events, lead to a SFO-BOM and DEL 788 service. (I can dream!)
I can't help but be curious what their onboard product is like though, something I admittedly haven't looked much in to, but if we may eventually see AI - UA codeshares, that's something I'd like to find out...
Perhaps it may aid the US-India route troubles, with the new connection infrastructure in both places?
On a more wishful thinking note, I'd like to think that this could eventually, through some chain of events, lead to a SFO-BOM and DEL 788 service. (I can dream!)
I can't help but be curious what their onboard product is like though, something I admittedly haven't looked much in to, but if we may eventually see AI - UA codeshares, that's something I'd like to find out...
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- AirIndia111
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 13): 27xB788s, 12(15)xB77Ws, 3xB77Ls, 5xB744s |
Considering that they are trying to dispose off the 77L's and the 744's, the widebody fleet should look like 27 B788's and 12 77W's.
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 13): 19xA319s, 20xA321s, (22xA320 classics costing too much to maintain and are not fuel efficient) |
They have 4 new A320's (VT-ED* series). Also, they are leasing more narrowbodies (Deal for 6 of them is already signed) to replace the older A320's. Not to forget the CRJ's / ATR's / AIX fleet.
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 5): They have at least excess of 7x77Ws |
6 77W's are required for the US operations. From what I have heard, the afternoon LHR flight (AI 111 / 112) and the Saudi Runs also warrant the use of a 77W. That makes 9 planes being utilized on a daily basis. As and when the 744's are phased out, we will have BOM - HYD / CCJ - COK - JED also moving to the 77W. Hence, 10 out of 12 77W's will be utilized keeping one as a backup at each DEL and BOM.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 15): From what I have heard, the afternoon LHR flight (AI 111 / 112) and the Saudi Runs also warrant the use of a 77W. That makes 9 planes being utilized on a daily basis. As and when the 744's are phased out, we will have BOM - HYD / CCJ - COK - JED also moving to the 77W. Hence, 10 out of 12 77W's will be utilized keeping one as a backup at each DEL and BOM. |
If their goal is to incur losses they can use any plane on any route. AI will get 14 more 778s. I don't think there is any route 778 cannot do and need a 77W with the exception of US.
USA - 7x77Ws
Europe, Asia, ME and Australia - 27x778s
VIP - 3x744s
Domestic- ~60-A319/A320/A321
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 15): Considering that they are trying to dispose off the 77L's and the 744's, the widebody fleet should look like 27 B788's and 12 77W's. |
They are not going to sell 744s. If they ever sell, they will buy three more VIP configured 77Ws.
They should remove all 585(195x3)xY seats from three 77L, change 12x77W interior config to 4F/21J/348Y (or) 28J/348Y from current 4F/35J/303Y. That will make 77W routes more profitable and 77Ls more marketable at reduced price.
There is no other airline in the world with 18 Width /34 Pitch /126 degree recline. Seat back IFE model could be another hurdle for any airline trying to buy these birds.
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 15): They have 4 new A320's (VT-ED* series). Also, they are leasing more narrowbodies (Deal for 6 of them is already signed) to replace the older A320's. Not to forget the CRJ's / ATR's / AIX fleet. |
Sure they are trying for last two years, First they wanted Brand New A320NEOs with Sharklets, later Brand New A320NEOs now they are a OK with 6 year old A320 classics.
If they haven't sunk so much money in WBs, they wouldn't have struggled so much to acquire/lease much needed NBs.
AIX is strictly focused on international routes, not much help within the country.
All posts are just opinions.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
In the Economic times story accompanies this news it was mentioned that AI IFE needs improvement among other things. But if I recall, LH still flies 744 with no seatback IFE? So how is it that AI has to improve on it, may be their offerings are mostly in Indian languages... but I thought individual IFE is a must for a good flight experience.
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- AirIndia111
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 16): I don't think there is any route 778 cannot do and need a 77W with the exception of US. |
AI carries close to 300 - 400 pax on any given day on each of its flights to JED / RUH, how can they fit all of them on a 787? It makes more sense for AI to send all the pax in 1 77W rather than on 2 787's.
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 16): If their goal is to incur losses they can use any plane on any route. |
AFAIK, AI is not losing money on the Saudi Routes.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 18): AI carries close to 300 - 400 pax on any given day on each of its flights to JED / RUH, how can they fit all of them on a 787? It makes more sense for AI to send all the pax in 1 77W rather than on 2 787's. |
Even 77W can carry only 342(4F35J303Y). I am sure no one is looking for a turn down service in F on a 2 1/2 hr flight. One B788 should improve load factor and make it profitable.
ATF in India costs 1.7 times compared to ME. AI is not ME3 to run a ULH on a regional route. If EK/EY/QR are filling up at their home base for India round trip, using a WB actually makes sense.
On a light note, If we have a city pair with 400 PDEW we will have a bee line of 6 RJs.
| Quoting AirDFW (Reply 17): In the Economic times story accompanies this news it was mentioned that AI IFE needs improvement among other things. |
May be it was about content. Both T7s and 778s have very advanced IFE systems. The IFE on AI 778 Thales TopSeries i8000 actually works on a wireless network.
All posts are just opinions.
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- toxtethogrady
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7): the largest share is now considered "desperate" ? |
The largest share now belongs to the MEB3.
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- uberflieger
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
Congratulations to AI and *A for finally tying the knot. 
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- Boeing747_600
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
What about the FAA's downgrade of Air India? How is that expected to impact *A's decision
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 22): What about the FAA's downgrade of Air India? How is that expected to impact *A's decision |
AI can place its codes on UA flights and get revenue share on tickets it sold on UA flights, but UA cannot place its codes on AI flights so they have to live with interline agreements with AI, without revenue sharing.
Garuda is a member of SkyTeam and Delta has to live with it.
Contrary to popular belief, it is actually US carriers loose money because of code share restriction.
All posts are just opinions.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
God I hope they don't take over any of UA flights from EWR or add extra lift. I don't know a more awful international carrier. 
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- AirIndia111
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 19): Even 77W can carry only 342(4F35J303Y). |
And the 744 carries 423 pax (12F/26J/385Y). Hence, I said 300-400 pax.
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 19): One B788 should improve load factor and make it profitable. |
As I said, the Saudi flights do see heavy loads. This week, EVB was grounded in JED and there were more than 400 pax who were supposed to fly onwards to CCJ.
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 19): If EK/EY/QR are filling up at their home base for India round trip, using a WB actually makes sense. |
AI's Saudi Operations are always BOM/DEL - RUH/JED - CCJ/COK/TRV - RUH/JED - BOM/DEL. Couldn't they also fill up in the ME for their Kerala Round trips?
| Quoting fxramper (Reply 26): I don't know a more awful international carrier. |
When did you last fly with them?
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 28): And the 744 carries 423 pax (12F/26J/385Y). Hence, I said 300-400 pax. |
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 28): As I said, the Saudi flights do see heavy loads |
There is no rule that AI has to operate one 77W on 6-8hr round trip and park it for 16+ hrs in a day. They can definitely use 744s. They are paid for and sun bathing. What happens if PDEW goes up to 500. Buy few A380s and sun bathe those as well.
Using 77Ws on short-haul will shrink resale value. As lightsaber posted in the past, with the introduction of 77X and A3580 classic T7s are going loose value further and faster. We can see that in ALF/G/H tenders. Over a life of ~900 days, they have 1400-1800 cycles. Which is unusual for ULH. It may be because HYD-DEL-ORD/AMD-BOM-EWR.
Is AI doing the best with the fleet they have? Yes.
Do they have optimized fleet? Absolutely Not.
All posts are just opinions.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 3): The question is does AI finally have their s*it together? Come to think of it, does UA? |
Good question!
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 25): AI has a fleet of A320s and AI Express has a 737 fleet....9W has a decent 737 fleet too......what fetish are you talking about? |
Both have a glut of wide body "aircraft" laying around (or) pretend to be utilized.
Both have acute shortage of narrow bodies but no money.
I think 9W's aim is to achieve "World's worst run WB Aircraft Leasing Corporation" award. They have 24 WBs probably need no more than 10. Even EY cannot help clearing that glut. If 9W has enough money there is no need defer/cancel/convert 737NG deliveries.
| Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 25): Are you saying they should operate NBs on all their flights? |
Being a regional feeder, not a bad idea for 9W.
All posts are just opinions.
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- AirIndia111
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RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 30): There is no rule that AI has to operate one 77W on 6-8hr round trip and park it for 16+ hrs in a day. |
Here is the schedule for AI's RUH runs on the 77W, care to explain where is the 16+ hour sunbathing involved?
Mon / Sat
0250 BOM RUH 0445
0600 RUH DEL 1235
1400 DEL RUH 1645
1800 RUH BOM 0030
Tue / Thu / Sun
0250 BOM RUH 0445
0600 RUH CCJ 1255
1415 CCJ RUH 1645
1800 RUH BOM 0030
Wed / Fri
0250 BOM RUH 0445
0600 RUH TRV 1310
1440 TRV RUH 1645
1800 RUH BOM 0030
Along with this, they operate 1x weekly DEL-RUH-DEL quick turnaround service on the 77L.
The JED runs also operate in the same manner, but they do involve significant ground time at DEL / CCJ for schedule optimization.
| Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 30): What happens if PDEW goes up to 500. Buy few A380s and sun bathe those as well. |
Then it makes sense to add an extra frequency, but currently when they have the demand to fill up a 77W, then why scale down to a 787? Especially, when the route doesn't demand multiple frequencies.
By the way, AI currently has a spare A332 operating once weekly DEL-MAA-DEL on Monday Mornings. Had there not been enough demand to fill up the 77W, the JED or the RUH runs would've been downgraded with the A332. The AI management does a fantastic job of matching capacity with the demand.
RE: Air India To Join Star Alliance In July
| Quoting AirIndia111 (Reply 33): By the way, AI currently has a spare A332 operating once weekly DEL-MAA-DEL on Monday Mornings. Had there not been enough demand to fill up the 77W, the JED or the RUH runs would've been downgraded with the A332. The AI management does a fantastic job of matching capacity with the demand. |
There is no doubt AI network planners are working hard to make money with what they have. But that is not enough to pay off the debt and get back in black.
Using 77W on milk-runs, 77Ls on one quick-run and 332 on one weekly domestic run are symptoms of having wrong fleet.
This goes back to the India's Plan-B culture, first let go Plan-A and work extremely hard to survive on Plan-B plus all the ingenuity. Why not show same ingenuity on Plan-A.
All posts are just opinions.
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