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TK787
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Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:46 pm

Hello Turkish Aviation fans,
Welcome to the May edition.


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Photo © Jens Breuer



Let me start this month off with couple of points;
-TK starts IST-BOS May12 with 5 x weekly 333 service, soon to go daily.
-TK and IST still growing, it won't be long before, we might be talking about IST taking over FRA. Incredible!!
-About the 3rd airport, LIMAK; the consortium in charge of building it, said back in September that they will start construction this month. Any news if this is remotely possible?

Please continue with your news, rumors, pictures, ideas, experiences and good old sense of humor.
Welcome,
TK787
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:51 pm

Well, this is not good. I would be very upset;
Refund For Downgrade From Y+ To Y? (on Turkish) (by AT Apr 30 2014 in Aviation Polls)
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 8:24 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
About the 3rd airport, LIMAK; the consortium in charge of building it, said back in September that they will start construction this month. Any news if this is remotely possible?

Groundbreaking ceremony is rumoured to be either May 19 (Commemoration of Atatürk, Youth and Sports Day) or May 29 (Conquest of Istanbul). I personally expect the latter due to the political message.

After groundbreaking the first phase has to be finished within 42 months. So, might we see the airport opening around 2018 then?
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 10:49 am

It seems as if TK has loaded the first of the new batch of B77Ws in the reservation systems. From Monday, July 28 onwards, IST IAH will be flown with a B77W without Y+, whereas from the same day onwards IST GRU EZE upgauges from A343 to B77W with Y+. I assume the aircraft to be used for IAH will be the first of the newly delivered B77Ws? I cannot imagine that TK would start reconfiguring the existing aircraft in the middle if the busy summer.
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 11:41 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
It seems as if TK has loaded the first of the new batch of B77Ws in the reservation systems. From Monday, July 28 onwards, IST IAH will be flown with a B77W without Y+, whereas from the same day onwards IST GRU EZE upgauges from A343 to B77W with Y+. I assume the aircraft to be used for IAH will be the first of the newly delivered B77Ws? I cannot imagine that TK would start reconfiguring the existing aircraft in the middle if the busy summer.

What about the 9W birds now going to IAH and their own 77W flying GRU instead? A340 could be used to LHR and BOM. Would be better for fuel economics, since long sectors can not be that profitable with the A340.

However, the first batch of 2 77W are supposed to be arriving in June or so. So, you might be right.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 6:09 pm

How is Turkish financing fleet expansion?
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 7:46 pm

Next addition to the fleet: PT-MVP ex TAM Airlines A330 built in october 2008.
 
Ned Kelly
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 8:25 pm

I flew into Istanbul-Ataturk tonight and the queues for Immigration were horrendous, and worse than I have ever seen in the UK. In the baggage hall bags were being taken off the conveyors and dumped on the floors to make room for the next arriving flights because the passengers were still stuck in the Immigration queues, and every desk was staffed. With more THY aircraft arriving all the time, I can't see the problem getting any better anytime soon. I've used SAW a couple of times, and a much better experience IMO.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 01, 2014 8:38 pm

Yes Houston will see the newly delivered 777s.

For info you can find the type once loaded in GDS with code of 77B while current 777 are 77C(comfort) and Jet Airways leases are 77A.

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 5):
How is Turkish financing fleet expansion?

Mix of self generated cash, aircraft bonds, and bank or export agency financing. There is extremely strong competition from lenders to earn the TK business.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Fri May 02, 2014 8:38 am

New 77B has been loaded for some dates. Configuration is 49 J 297 Y, exactly same as Egyptair's 77Ws.
Seating remains 9 abreast.

I might prove wrong, but I think the first routes will be Houston and Peking. I am really positively suprised to see TK having confidence to invest in a bigger J cabin. However, the gap in J capacity between the A330s and 77B will be huge.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Fri May 02, 2014 12:22 pm

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 9):
Configuration is 49 J 297 Y, exactly same as Egyptair's 77Ws.

Let's see how this is going to play out. I agree with you about the confidence of TK in filling those J seats. One might argue that TK did their homework and they know how to fill those. If that was the case they could have ordered these planes with only 2 classes, only a few years back. What has changed in a couple of years?

Only a total increase of 9 pax, but I wonder how this will effect the service in both classes. I haven't flown in J but it seems like almost doubling its size will affect the quality and the speed of service. Y, I flew couple of times. The service was pretty hectic; carts being rolled back and forth...you know the drill.
I guess the current 77Ws will adopt the same seating once they go to C/D checks.

I still think it would have been better if TK kept the Comfort class in a smaller form.
Instead of those 60 Y seats in the old Comfort section, they could have installed 5 rows of 3-3-3 new Comfort seating for a total of 45 New Comfort class. So TK could have charged double the Y fare for new Comfort and make 30%more money from the same floor space. F&B service could have been the same as Y. This could have given TK a cushion when upgrading from Y to J.

In the end, I guess TK does not want to deal with a smaller Comfort product, a new fare/service class where they don't see a big financial income. It is hard to understand where every other airline is offering a Y+ product, TK eliminating it.
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Fri May 02, 2014 12:34 pm

I repeated many times in the forum that the 77W J cabin is too small on many routes. However, there are certainly some destination where the current configuration of 28J is sufficient. Hence, we might see some J heavy and some rather Y heavy 77W in the next 2-3 years. I also think that there are some destinations where they actually make money with their Y+ (LAX, NRT). However, I am not sure if it is worth all the additional complexity to keep it only on some (3-4) frames.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Fri May 02, 2014 2:34 pm

For those wondering why Houston - as I posted a couple months back station has the highest J class bookings in Americas on per flight basis. Obviously JFK is the strongest of all, but demand for J class out of IAH has been stronger than imagined.

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 9):
I might prove wrong, but I think the first routes will be Houston and Peking.

Shanghai, not Beijing is the 2nd city. Starts mid-September.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 10):
Only a total increase of 9 pax, but I wonder how this will effect the service in both classes. I haven't flown in J but it seems like almost doubling its size will affect the quality and the speed of service.

I'm sure the number and distribution of FA's by cabin will be adjusted.

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 11):
I repeated many times in the forum that the 77W J cabin is too small on many routes. However, there are certainly some destination where the current configuration of 28J is sufficient. Hence, we might see some J heavy and some rather Y heavy 77W in the next 2-3 years.

Yes some route definitely need more J class. There are markets where J class nearly books full a month out, a very bad thing as you end up turning away business. This is good dilemma is being handled with a bit combination of higher pricing, and now new larger J class cabin.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Fri May 02, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Shanghai, not Beijing is the 2nd city. Starts mid-September.

That is quite nice actually. They can be used in the late afternoon, after arrival at 4-5 pm for domestic ADB or ESB and sometimes TLV runs. This can be made without having to seat passenger in Y+ who actually only paid Y.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Sat May 03, 2014 4:48 pm

On googlemaps, the first results of the construction works for the new apron at IST can be seen. The first planes are stored there already...
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Sun May 04, 2014 2:25 pm

Another TK 738, TC-JVE made its first flight. Number 76?
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Sun May 04, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 15):
Another TK 738, TC-JVE

TC-JVC, delivered just a few weeks ago, had a tail-strike incident after take-off at IST today.
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Sun May 04, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 16):

I was lucky enough to be on the tarmac couple of months when TC-JHZ got delivered. This was the first time ever I was able to touch the tail strike unit, whatever they call it. Maybe our pilot friends can explain this better.
We know 737s are closer to the ground than the 320 series. From what I can see the piece has a green to red color indicator and if you have a tail strike it gets pushed in and goes to red I imagine... than what?
 
LLA001
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 6:27 am

I have a question,

Last week I flew from Johannesburg to Istanbul with TK-41 with uneventful flight. We arrived at the airport around 05:05 ( 15 minutes before schedule ) in the morning of 1st of May. Passport lines for foreign visitors was very busy ( lines starting from moving walkways ) but the line for Turkish Nationals was ok and we were out to baggage check in 20 minutes.

Once we came to baggage check we had to wait till 6:30 for the baggage to come out. TGS said they were taking care of the delay but they could not tell the reason for the delay.

My question is not about the huge lines for foreign visitors or baggage delay but it is about the displays.

When we arrived at the information boards and baggage monitor we could see that TK-41 has landed at 05:05 and its baggage was in carrousel 9 but around 6:15 at the information about TK-41 in the information board at baggage carrousel dissapeared. We thought they have taken off the TK-41's info so they could put other arriving airlines info instead ( since our baggage was delayed ).

After taking our baggage around 06:30 we went to exit, pass through customs and came to arrivals where we were greeted by a friend of ours who was confused because at the information boards in arrivals, TK-41 arrival information was changed. With current information it looked like scheduled arrival was 06:20 and actual arrival was 06:31 for an airplane that actually landed at 05:05

So was this a computer error or was someone trying to change the time so they can write that there was no delay in their schedule ?
 
TK773ER
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 11:17 am

Not sure if this has been mentioned but it looks like TK is looking at a possible third city in Tanzania here is the link http://www.ippmedia.com/frontend/index.php?l=67539
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 11:48 am

Quoting TK773ER (Reply 19):

And Asmara:
http://airlineroute.net/2014/05/05/tk-asm-aug14/
and rumors about Madagascar..
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 3:34 pm

IST-SGK going 2d from 1d starting june.
 
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TK105
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 21):

IST-SGK going 2d from 1d starting june.

I suppose you are referring to SKG. Very good news. Hopefully TK will position second daily flight to evening bank that can route European arrivals to SKG in the evening and SKG arrivals to near/far east after mid night. Last time, my colleague had to take AMS-IST-ATH-SKG as it was not possible to route directly to SKG via IST.
The future is in the skies.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 4:48 pm

Updated schedule is:

TK1881 IST-SKG 0725-0845 A319
TK1893 IST-SKG 1825-1955 A319

TK1882 SKG-IST 0940-1100 A319
TK1894 SKG-IST 2050-2210 A319

=
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Carfield
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Mon May 05, 2014 11:31 pm

I presume the new 77Bs will feature the same "business class seats" as in its 77Cs, and there won't be any major changes to the much dreaded seven abreast seating and possibility for more direct-aisle access business class seats!

Any insight will be appreciated!

Carfield
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Tue May 06, 2014 5:14 am

[quote=Carfield,reply=24]I presume the new 77Bs will feature the same "business class seats" as in its 77Cs, and there won't be any major changes to the much dreaded seven abreast seating and possibility for more direct-aisle access business class seats!

Any insight will be appreciated!

It is still 7 abreast seating, whether the seat itself changes? I doubt that.
 
TC957
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Tue May 06, 2014 7:09 am

Is l/n 1212 the first of the new batch of 77B's ?
 
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OA260
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Tue May 06, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 21):
IST-SGK going 2d from 1d starting june.

Yes I mentioned it in the last thread or one before that I believe. Good news for that region of Greece. They are still discussing codeshares with A3. Meanwhile TK is reporting good loads on the ATH-IST flights which seems to be consistent with the results from A3 the other day which report a 28% increase in International traffic at ATH. A recent regional tourism initiative also expressed a desire by a few Turkish carriers to enhance routes to the Greek Islands in 2015.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Tue May 06, 2014 2:41 pm

TK is working on a new premium product but it wont be available for these 77B deliveries.

The 77B cabins will feature J class that goes into the former comfort class section between doors 2 and 3. Total 7 rows of 2-3-2 seating.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Tue May 06, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 27):
Yes I mentioned it in the last thread or one before that I believe.

Oh sorry, didn't remember it.

May2013-April2014 (12 months) numbers:
IST: 53,077,230
SAW: 20,496,332
 
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OA260
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Tue May 06, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 29):
Oh sorry, didn't remember it.

No probs hard to keep track.   So many changes .

Was looking at Flight Radar last night for IST . Was amazing to see the traffic out heading east. SIN HKG PVG etc... All in a line .
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 9:34 am

Finally, TK is starting to refurbish their first of the two ex QR A332s (TC-JNF). Probably, the most hated aircraft in the fleet. New IFE system will be from Lumexis Corp.

Press release was made some time last year, but works on the aircraft will start only now. Refurbishment works are scheduled to last approx one months.
http://www.lumexis.com/press/PRESS%2...ASE%20-%20THY%20selects%20FTTS.pdf
 
TK773ER
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 31):

How much longer are the leases on these two ? Also what about the TAM and GF birds are all TK's A332 fleet going to be singing the same tune ?
 
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TK787
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting TK773ER (Reply 32):

How much longer are the leases on these two ?

They were supposed to leave 2017.
 
Turkish777X
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 33):

They were supposed to leave 2017.

I think so too. They joined the fleet in 2009 and were 8 year leases.

Interesting move indeed. Hope this means that other aircraft, such as (TAM) and TC-JNV can also be brought to TK standards.
 
Turkish350XWB
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 1:28 pm

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 34):
Quoting TK787 (Reply 33):

They were supposed to leave 2017.

I think so too. They joined the fleet in 2009 and were 8 year leases.

So typical for TK: why not install them in 2009 and use them for 8 years, instead of installing in 2014 and using for 3 years. It is always just reacting... I don't consider this professional.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 35):
So typical for TK: why not install them in 2009 and use them for 8 years, instead of installing in 2014 and using for 3 years. It is always just reacting... I don't consider this professional.

Here is a story for you --

When you lease and aircraft, you must return it in the same condition. That means interior as well. If items have been worn out like carpets, seat bottoms or broken IFE, you better make sure they look and work like they did at delivery otherwise you will be paying a hefty fee for failure to redeliver in the same condition you received them.

TK had a couple options -

1) Purchase and install an all new interior and IFE at delivery. This would require old interior be removed and stored for the 8-years and reinstalled prior to return. As I recall the cost was excess of USD $4mil per ship set plus engineering headaches for supplemental type certification for the non common fleet type.
2) Keep and maintain existing interior.

Fast forward a few years, and now a couple of things have changed. First TK is now in the interior business and can engineer the interior certifications itself to large degree, and partially even manufacture them internally also for a good savings. Secondly, as the old interior design and IFE is becoming vintage, the lessor is not as adamant to receive it back and would be happy to see something more contemporary inside when the aircraft are returned - after all this build value for the lessor.


My point with sharing these types of details is that there is are complex behind the scene issues involved in business decisions and what might appear on the surface has really no relationship with the behind the scene restrictions.

I have not even bothered to get into details of how parts, avionics, documentation and other details vary from lease to lease and must be carefully tracked and many cases segregated to ensure compliance with lease terms or regulatory requirements.


p.s. - the Lumexis agreement is for AVOD system update.

[Edited 2014-05-07 08:50:23]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Steelyman
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 5:19 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
Fast forward a few years, and now a couple of things have changed. First TK is now in the interior business and can engineer the interior certifications itself to large degree, and partially even manufacture them internally also for a good savings. Secondly, as the old interior design and IFE is becoming vintage, the lessor is not as adamant to receive it back and would be happy to see something more contemporary inside when the aircraft are returned - after all this build value for the lessor.

Wouldn't it be a great move that when this bird goes back to QR, QR customers see that this TK-refurbished bird is better than QR ones? Then customer could think moving to TK

In my opinion, great move.
BRGDS, Mike
 
Turkish350XWB
Posts: 485
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 35):

p.s. - the Lumexis agreement is for AVOD system update.

This i didn't know. I thought it was for a whole new AVOD.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

Thank you very much for your answer and patience. Of course i agree that issues appear different with a better insight. We can agree that both options cost money. We can also agree that there are things a customers does not see (e.g. expensive maintenance work) and things customers do see (e.g. interior, service, consistency). At the end a decision has to be taken regarding following question: how much do we value and are we willing to pay for our brand recognition. As a customer of TK and many other airlines i value this decision as wrong. The calculation if this is a wise decision in terms of economics is a difficult challenge of course.
 
emrecan
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 6:30 pm

How about 9W 's 330? Do they have AVOD?
 
Turkish777X
Posts: 376
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting emrecan (Reply 39):
How about 9W 's 330? Do they have AVOD?

Yes, they do. The cabin is in rather good shape.
 
ist2014
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 7:21 pm

any info about TAMs A332-243 s interior
 
wing
Posts: 1366
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):
My point with sharing these types of details is that there is are complex behind the scene issues involved in business decisions and what might appear on the surface has really no relationship with the behind the scene restrictions.

They don't even spend the same amount of time to think, as much as you spend your time writing this information believe me  
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
stylo777
Posts: 2792
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 10:06 pm

quite interesting yet very critical article about TK
http://www.diken.com.tr/analiz/zorla-sampiyon-olmaz/ (I'm sorry, in Turkish only...)
 
behramjee
Posts: 5043
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RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 10:15 pm

Quoting TK787 (Reply 20):
and rumors about Madagascar..

yes that is 'rumored' to be operated via MRU-Maurituis (another new route) using an A332 four times per week from W14 season once all the Govt related bilaterals etc get approved.
 
Steelyman
Posts: 114
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:40 am

RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Wed May 07, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 40):
Yes, they do. The cabin is in rather good shape.

One of my colleagues has flown on that bird and it is quite good, PLANET has been already uploaded to its AVOD system.
I'll take this aircraft next week on my way to KTM.
BRGDS, Mike
 
Turkish777X
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:38 pm

RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 08, 2014 7:34 am

Quoting Steelyman (Reply 45):
One of my colleagues has flown on that bird and it is quite good, PLANET has been already uploaded to its AVOD system.
I'll take this aircraft next week on my way to KTM.

Would be nice if we could get some feedback about the aircraft from you 
 
emrecan
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 7:20 am

RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 08, 2014 9:24 am

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 43):

Hi Stylo,

On the article, it is said last year there was a traffic of 34 million pax for IST (which is more than 50 million pax in real)

The author has not even checked this kind of simple stuff and analying(!) TK.

Very funny in deed
 
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TK105
Posts: 594
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:40 pm

RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 08, 2014 10:21 am

Quoting emrecan (Reply 47):

I agree that there are many mistakes in this artical (for example DXB has only 2 runways - not 4 as mentioned).

However there is also a need for hearing out such opposition ideas & analysis. At the end of the day, TK has to be profitable to be able to sustain the business. In this regard, below graph needs an attention:

The future is in the skies.
 
stylo777
Posts: 2792
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Turkish Aviation May 2014

Thu May 08, 2014 11:28 am

Quoting emrecan (Reply 47):
Hi Stylo,

On the article, it is said last year there was a traffic of 34 million pax for IST (which is more than 50 million pax in real)

The author has not even checked this kind of simple stuff and analying(!) TK.

Very funny in deed
Quoting TK105 (Reply 48):
I agree that there are many mistakes in this artical (for example DXB has only 2 runways - not 4 as mentioned).

However there is also a need for hearing out such opposition ideas & analysis. At the end of the day, TK has to be profitable to be able to sustain the business. In this regard, below graph needs an attention:

correct, there are mistakes, but the message is clear, TK has to carefully watch their business strategy.
net profit in 2013 went down to 357mio. USD (from 657mio. USD in 2012). this is an operative margin of 3.6% compared to a very high 8.0% in 2012. this is just an example taken out of the official financial report.
don't get me wrong, I personally think TK is still on a very good path and the boom in Turkey the past 5-6 years surely helped a lot. they were able to widen their business by introducing jointventures and subsidiaries (e.g. HABOM, TEC, TGS, TurkishOPET, Goodrich Turkish Technic, etc.). the business is not concentrated on purely flying anymore, but rather introducing an aviation group kind of company.
therefore, it is very crucial to be sceptical, critical and objective. TK is not a small and unimportant company anymore, it is a big aviation corporation. politics will smooth the way, but should not have a place inside the key decision points of the airline.


btw. the article is not accessable anymore (atleast from the UAE where I live)

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Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos