Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12): Once its out we well know for sure, but I suspect that a large pull down will come post labor day when traffic drops off. No need to drag it out over many months imo.

Well, that can be a double edged sword. That is, the company seems to be following through with the threats, so then why would any of the junior FOs or Captains want to stay through the summer, if another offer exists? If that happens you've now created a shortage for this summer.

Quoting apodino (Reply 15): That being said I forgot about PSA. They would stay in company, without the need for an RFP, and they would go to an existing 700 operator.

Can PSA staff the planes?

Quoting Mir (Reply 18): Short-term, yes. The majors are going to be hiring a lot soon, so they'll be moving up within a few years. And since the ones furloughed will be low in seniority, they're probably not going to see that significant a decrease in pay.

  

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 48): Regional airlines are nothing more than temporary staffing agencies. They have no individual brand, assets, or leverage to make them stand out from any other regional carrier.

Yes, and no, and that's entirely dependent on the operation. There are some airlines that meet some of your qualifications, but to apply them to the entire industry is just ignorance.

-In the case of the older regional airlines, they DID have a brand, at least a prevalent one, but they majors told them to ditch it for "conformity." Case in point: several regionals were offering better a coach product than their respective majors.

-Many regionals DO own their assets. Air Wisconsin, Mesa, SkyWest, Silver, and Pinnacle come to mind.

-As far as contracts go, cost is primary, but there's a lot of leverage in performance and reputation. So much so that it's not always the cheapest that wins an RFP.

-Regional personnel are no more temporary than that of other carriers. No one's job in this industry is safe from downsizing or dissolution. It's quite convenient to forget about airlines such as Eastern, Pan Am, Braniff, National, and Midway. Let's not forget the countless stations that were opened and closed throughout the years.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 49): That's is usually spoken by someone trying to justify why they weren't hired by a major. The ability to earn 250-300K with 16% B-fund, versus staying at a regional because you like it is a stretch.

Do people stay in the military their whole life because they like it, or because they couldn't get hired at a place that pays better?

I haven't seen you in a while, by the way. Welcome back.

[Edited 2014-05-02 10:27:57]

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 51): -Many regionals DO own their assets. Air Wisconsin, Mesa, SkyWest, Silver, and Pinnacle come to mind.

Actually, Mesa has gotten away from owning as the new UA contract actually has UA owning the planes, and Mesa simply operating them. I could be mistaken, but I also believe that Endeavor (Pinnacle is no more remember) is also in the boat of the major owning all their airplanes. I think SkyWest, RAH, TSH, and Air Wisky are the only ones left that own most of their assets.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 53): Regional airlines (when they were called 'commuters') used to base their business model upon their own brand/assets/routes and any codesharing with mainline was gravy. Now it has flipped the other way around. This is a damaging and dangerous reversal. I do wish that there was a return to brand awareness and true 'regional' focus for these carriers.

I can agree with the spirit of this.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 53): Regional carriers are the definition of temporary!

Are they? You might want to explain that to the ones that have been around for 40 years or more.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 53): Sure, there is some risk-benefit analysis, but we have some dirtbag regional companies cutting corners in safety and the mainline affiliates turn their eyes away.

So because of a carrier that might do that, you're willing to throw a blanket statement over an entire industry? You'd have a good job in investigational journalism.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 53): Cost is the main consideration, splitting your regional feed among several carriers is secondary, and 'reputation' is way down on the bottom of the list.

As far as how the major sees its regional feed after a bid, you'd be right. As for point number 3, though, it depends on the carrier. Some put a lot of care into their regional brand (DL, AA.) Others, not so much (UA.)

[Edited 2014-05-02 11:44:25]

Quoting upsmd11 (Reply 44):

Those are the Chautauqua jets that are being parked because the airline can't staff them. Although I'm not at Eagle anymore, I still know what goes on there and staffing is a HUGE problem. Block hours have been returned to mainline because Eagle admitted they can't staff the flights. That's one reason why you're seeing so many stations up-gauging.

I also firmly believe, knowing this MEC and reading countless emails in the past, that Bill is calling the company out. What he wrote have been management threats for months, but they haven't followed through. Yet, at least. I also think it's a call to pilots to aggressively look to greener pastures, which will further hinder the company's ability to staff. Before I left, my seniority went up 200 numbers in two months and by all accounts, that's still the case. Shrinking 47% won't honestly have much appreciable effect because people are bailing left and right. And that doesn't include the flow.

It's a shame because Eagle was a great airline. Not always the best to work for, but we had great people and the pilots were some of the best trained in the industry (just repeating what I've been told from others in the airline industry). I'm proud to have been an Eagle pilot, and sorry to see things degrade to what they have. I wish everyone luck. Eagle Strong!

Did you flow through to AA, Acey?

While I understand, strategically, why AA/Envoy has to go down this path - they had their bluff called by the pilots and don't want to set an example that they will back down - I think making this move public is a strategic error.

AA only has seven options to place the CR7s:

1. A subsidiary of Delta (Endeavor)
2. A subsidiary of Republic Airways Group (Chautauqua/Republic/Shuttle America)
3. A subsidiary of Skywest Group (Expressjet/Skywest)
4. A subsidiary of Trans States Holdings (GoJet/Trans States/Compass)
5. A subsidiary of itself (PSA/Piedmont)
6. Mesa Air
7. Air Wisconsin

Of these options, option 1 is impractical, option 2 (and a branch of option 3) have labor issues, option 6 (and a branch of option 5) are probably out as they are already committed to lots of new flying.

So essentially they only can be placed with SkyWest, GoJet, Piedmont, and/or Air Wisconsin.

My guess is that they are releasing this news in an attempt to bully Piedmont into taking the PSA contract, at which point they will get the CR7's and get to remain and airline. If that fails, they'll either get split between SkyWest and GoJet or go to Air Wisky to replace their CR2's.

I doubt that Air Whisky will be lower costs than Envoy - which is why I think that making this news public is a mistake.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 57): I doubt that Air Whisky will be lower costs than Envoy - which is why I think that making this news public is a mistake.

There are WARN Act requirements. Keeping it private isn't an option.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 51): Do people stay in the military their whole life because they like it, or because they couldn't get hired at a place that pays better?

Most of the pilots at the majors will do both. They leave active duty, get major job and get military guard or reserve job. Do their time to get full military retirement.

On the subject of envoy I think a very similar thing is about to happen to Expressjet. Their future is very bleak.

I will believe this when I see it. They can threaten to send their flying else where but, currently every regional in the US is canceling flights everyday due to no crew. This is nothing more than a threat in hopes to get the pilots to buckle, it's not going to happen. The pilots as well as management both know that in the next 2 years every 1,500 hour pilot with a pulse will be needed. ExpressJet would have to park close to 60 planes before the lowest seniority pilot would get touched. We are averaging -17 pilots per month between attrition and hiring and they are quickly running out of 1,000 hour pilot applicants. The majors haven't even started their massive hiring yet and we are still losing an average of 70 pilots per month.

Quoting flyboy730 (Reply 60): This is nothing more than a threat in hopes to get the pilots to buckle, it's not going to happen.

Nope, the union is calling management's bluff. Management needs to either come out and say that they are removing 106 frames or say that they are not. If the frames are going to leave, FOs will leave- as will people who were looking to work for envoy. Envoy will be the new Comair in the pilots eye. If management says the union is lying- then they won't be able to get a pay cut. The ball is in management's court to either confirm or deny the Union.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 56):

Nope, I was fortunate enough to start a new job flying a Legacy 650 back home. No more commuting for me! I'd have been happy to go to AA, but I only had a little over two years in at Eagle, so I was far from flowing.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 57): I doubt that Air Whisky will be lower costs than Envoy

Its not going to be awarded to a company who's costs would be higher then what was originally offered at Envoy. Their fee for departure would have to be much lower for them to even be considered. Unless ZW comes back with lower numbers in the contract where they are close to the others its not going to be them. It may also be split between several other regionals like a SkyWest and PSA or a SkyWest and Mesa. All depends what plans Doug and his boys have up their sleeves.

Quoting 9lflyguy (Reply 35): Any chance Air Wisconsin might pick these CRJ7s up?

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 57): My guess is that they are releasing this news in an attempt to bully Piedmont into taking the PSA contract, at which point they will get the CR7's and get to remain and airline.

Bully them would not be the right word, but I guess we'll find out in the next couple weeks.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 57): While I understand, strategically, why AA/Envoy has to go down this path - they had their bluff called by the pilots and don't want to set an example that they will back down - I think making this move public is a strategic error. AA only has seven options to place the CR7s: 1. A subsidiary of Delta (Endeavor) 2. A subsidiary of Republic Airways Group (Chautauqua/Republic/Shuttle America) 3. A subsidiary of Skywest Group (Expressjet/Skywest) 4. A subsidiary of Trans States Holdings (GoJet/Trans States/Compass) 5. A subsidiary of itself (PSA/Piedmont) 6. Mesa Air 7. Air Wisconsin Of these options, option 1 is impractical, option 2 (and a branch of option 3) have labor issues, option 6 (and a branch of option 5) are probably out as they are already committed to lots of new flying. So essentially they only can be placed with SkyWest, GoJet, Piedmont, and/or Air Wisconsin. My guess is that they are releasing this news in an attempt to bully Piedmont into taking the PSA contract, at which point they will get the CR7's and get to remain and airline. If that fails, they'll either get split between SkyWest and GoJet or go to Air Wisky to replace their CR2's. I doubt that Air Whisky will be lower costs than Envoy - which is why I think that making this news public is a mistake.

Well it wont be RAH.

At their earnings call one of the analyst asked about picking up added AA business and the response was that without long term pilot contract in place with assured cost stability they could not make the numbers work for AA.

Basically too much risk/unknowns for years down the road for RAH to commit to business without knowing what its cost will be in 3,5 or 7 years down the road.

Republic is looking for pilots.

Quoting beatyair (Reply 66): Republic is looking for pilots.

That is an understatement haha! They can't fill the classes they have for current flying!

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 59): Most of the pilots at the majors will do both. They leave active duty, get major job and get military guard or reserve job. Do their time to get full military retirement.

Err, yes, I can understand that pilot-centric viewpoint since I'm sure that's what you did, and it's true that others would follow a similar path, but my point applies more to those that never leave active military even though there are other, better paying opportunities at similar jobs in the civilian workforce.

My point is this: To assume that someone stays at a regional because they "can't make the cut" is pretty insulting. Yeah, many will move on, and some might try and fail, but there are also those people out there just like what they're doing, where they are, and who they work for and with, and have neved had an intention to move elsewhere. For them, moving to a major (or anywhere else, for that matter,) by chasing the almighty dollar was never in the cards.

[Edited 2014-05-03 07:03:06]

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 63): Its not going to be awarded to a company who's costs would be higher then what was originally offered at Envoy.

Remember tho', that Envoy's costs are only going to go up because of this decision. Fewer pilots to spread the costs across, and all will likely be at top of scale. AA will be interested in the bottom line. They don't care what ZW's costs are, its the cost per departure on the RFP that matters. ZW has all ther eggs in one basket, I expect them to be aggressive and put up a good fight for the flying. That said, I expect it will be going to PSA regardless.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 63): Its not going to be awarded to a company who's costs would be higher then what was originally offered at Envoy. Their fee for departure would have to be much lower for them to even be considered. Unless ZW comes back with lower numbers in the contract where they are close to the others its not going to be them. It may also be split between several other regionals like a SkyWest and PSA or a SkyWest and Mesa. All depends what plans Doug and his boys have up their sleeves.

We don't know what ZWs costs are and we don't know what they would bid for potential work. Nobody does except for ZW management, who always is very good at keeping their cards close to the vest. It does appear that ZW will have the 50 seaters through at least 2017, as AA has indicated these will be repainted in AE colors due to what they deem as an unacceptable paint condition on a fleet they say will last until 2017.

ZWs management has always told their workgroups that their costs are too high. No one knows if its true or not, because they won't offer data to prove it. This appears to be an attempt to maintain leverage over the pilot group, but given all the no votes by pilot groups as of late, along with the fact that the ZW pilots have some pretty good workrules, indicates to me whatever leverage management has is slowly going away.

That also being said, I have heard that ZW is hiring pilots by the truckload, and their pilot staffing is about 100 more than it was a couple of years ago> I don't know how much is related to 117, and I don't know how much is due to anticipated attrition, as they are losing pilots to the majors almost as fast as they are getting them on the property.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 69): Remember tho', that Envoy's costs are only going to go up because of this decision. Fewer pilots to spread the costs across, and all will likely be at top of scale. AA will be interested in the bottom line. They don't care what ZW's costs are, its the cost per departure on the RFP that matters. ZW has all ther eggs in one basket, I expect them to be aggressive and put up a good fight for the flying. That said, I expect it will be going to PSA regardless.

  
From a management standpoint, the PSA pilots contract is the best of the best, and since it was the most recent to be ratified, it will last ten years. This gives PSA way more cost certainty than other carriers. (Even OO, which is non-union has less) The only issue PSA would have would be staffing the airplanes. If they don't see it being a problem, I don't see any situation where they don't get the flying, although if AA wants to diversify, PSA gives them a great bargaining chip with the other regionals.

I was watching flightradar24.com around 5:30p.m. EST today and noticed an E145 with the callsign ENVOYSUX. It was heading northwest from MIA. No flight # or city pair. I tried to copy the page but I couldn't.
  

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 42): Please, explain to us "what they so richly deserved" and why they "richly deserve" it, because frankly, I doubt you can without making more baseless and mis-appropriated statements.

What was the overriding reason for the Colgan crash?? What have the regional pilots been complaining about for 10 years or better? Mainly crew rest! The regionals have been notorious for skimming Crew rest and undercutting the 8 hrs, FAR 117 merely MANDATES what the crew rest periods will be something that only the Major airline Pilots had in their contracts. It also mandates the number of consecutive days a pilot may work. And it actually put ALL airlines on notice that Crew rest was important and they need More pilots, and in Needing MORE pilots? They will have to pay a living WAGE to SAID Pilots.
So No more "Walmart Wages" With the 1500Hr rule they will have to PAY like the other professions in Airline operation.
I'm a 35 yr Airline Technician I average $110K-125K and have for over 15 yrs. There's NO reason I can think of that I should make more than an Airline Captain. While true that I have Millions of Seat miles under my Signature , and Millions of passengers have flown under my Maintenance releases, That airline Captain is the First one to an Accident and he should be paid accordingly.. Baseless Staqtements?? You must be a REAL Expert in airline operations To say that. NOT!!

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 72): What was the overriding reason for the Colgan crash?? What have the regional pilots been complaining about for 10 years or better? Mainly crew rest! The regionals have been notorious for skimming Crew rest and undercutting the 8 hrs, FAR 117 merely MANDATES what the crew rest periods will be something that only the Major airline Pilots had in their contracts. It also mandates the number of consecutive days a pilot may work. And it actually put ALL airlines on notice that Crew rest was important and they need More pilots, and in Needing MORE pilots? They will have to pay a living WAGE to SAID Pilots. So No more "Walmart Wages" With the 1500Hr rule they will have to PAY like the other professions in Airline operation.

Gee, is that what you were trying to say through all of that rambling gibberish in post 40? Sure fooled me. Probably because you ended that post with such a spiteful sentence that reads nothing like you were intending.

Secondly, since you're wont of comparing what these guys earn to a Wal-Mart employee, it's pretty obvious that you have no idea how little your average Wal-Mart employee actually earns. Even your lowest paid regional pilot is sitting on a gold mine compared to them. And that's assuming the Wal-Mart employee works full time, which most don't.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 72): Baseless Staqtements?? You must be a REAL Expert in airline operations To say that.

When you spout such god-awful "facts," then yes, I am an expert compared to you. Let me quote you again:

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 40): I don't Believe for 1 second that Envoy is pakling airplanes becaiuse they WANT to. It's because they don't have the 1500 Hr Capt's and 1st officers to STAFF the flights with adequate reseves of pilots.

This entire quote is what's baseless. In other words, not true. Yes, Envoy is losing pilots, but they can still staff their flights. Their completion factor would be absolutely atrocious right now if they couldn't. Besides, how could you even begin to guess that they have a terrible staffing situation anyhow; Is it because you read an article on A.net that said that they'll be losing 47% of their flying?

I don't care how many years you have, or how much you make; seniority is no excuse for making up such rubbish. Especially when you're talking about a holding company that's not even your own.

P.S.- Get an editor.

[Edited 2014-05-03 19:39:36]

Quoting 747d10 (Reply 71):

In the Embraer (and probably other planes?) you can change your callsign on the RMU and that's what shows up on flightradar24.com. Pretty funny stuff you'll see sometimes. When we were in bankruptcy, people would put BANKRUPT in there a lot. It wasn't until later that a lot of us realized that actually gets broadcast.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 68): My point is this: To assume that someone stays at a regional because they "can't make the cut" is pretty insulting. Yeah, many will move on, and some might try and fail, but there are also those people out there just like what they're doing, where they are, and who they work for and with, and have neved had an intention to move elsewhere. For them, moving to a major (or anywhere else, for that matter,) by chasing the almighty dollar was never in the cards.

I am in this boat. I have many friends that work for the majors that want me to jump ship from where I am at and come on over. But I'm comfortable where I am. The pay is decent, I don't have to move and I think we have amazing benefits. Yes I could make more money at a major, but it isn't just about the money for me. At the same time I am not too worried about my future. I can build a lot of experience where I am and if needed I can then make the jump to a major or elsewhere. Anyways best wishes to the Envoy folks. We may work for competing companies but lets not forget we're all part of a big aviation family.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 72): I'm a 35 yr Airline Technician I average $110K-125K and have for over 15 yrs. There's NO reason I can think of that I should make more than an Airline Captain. While true that I have Millions of Seat miles under my Signature , and Millions of passengers have flown under my Maintenance releases, That airline Captain is the First one to an Accident and he should be paid accordingly.. Baseless Staqtements?? You must be a REAL Expert in airline operations To say that. NOT!!

I agree with you. It blows my mind to hear about the low salaries the industry pays some pilots. I wonder if the ULCC pilots are also in the same boat as the commuter pilots. Are pilot wages at Spirit and Frontier lower than Southwest and AA/DL/UA? Are they better or worse than Envoy/Sky West etc?

Late edit:
The carrier is hiring about 15 pilots a month, but it's losing about 44 a month who retire, leave for other jobs or are hired at American's main operation, he said.
http://www.aviationpros.com/news/114...e-regional-pilot-jobs-at-envoy-air

So I wonder, how much of this issue is due to planned upgauging by US/AA? With higher cost regional flying, it would shift the business case where some cities go mainline. Some will be dropped. I know I've made the choice to take my own time and drive a few more hours to avoid the $800 *more* the 120 mile connection would have imposed. (My time is valuable, but *not* that valuable.)

Does AA want to push out RJ flying?

Quoting apodino (Reply 3): In a related story, Cohen of the RAA was up on Capitol Hill today along with Bryan Bedford (RAH CEO), testifying how the regional airlines are having staffing issues due to the 1500 hour rule. I

Only at the lowest paid levels. Now that said I fully expect some relaxation of the 1500 hour rule. It will be amusing to see how the politicians justify this; but I think they will as small cities that were marginal for RJ travel anyway lose service.

Quoting Mir (Reply 18): If they'd pay properly then the staffing issues would disappear quickly enough.

Agreed. Or if customers somehow lost their preference of jets over truboprops. I know more than a few of my 'non-aviation' fan friends and relatives will drive for 4 to 6 hours to avoid a turboprop... I don't share their dislike of propellers, but some people just prefer jets.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 31): AA can paper over this all they want, it won't change a thing over the next couple of years as the staffing issues come home to bite the regionals even harder given flow agreements, openings at the majors and lack of inflow to the industry of new pilots willing to make pitiful wages.

I think it will force up wages which will bring back US pilots flying for foreign carriers. But I fully expect quite a bit of RJ flying to be upgauged back to mainline with more than a few cities just losing service

Lightsaber

[Edited 2014-05-04 15:44:41]

The parking of the 140s isn't a surprise. I was listening to a conversation between a then Eagle, now Envoy F/A and a passenger in the spring of 2012. She said that as part of Chapter 11 (pre-US getting into the mix), the 135 fleet was going to get parked in short order. Then, a slower phase-out of the 140 fleet would start. AA still had routes that made sense for a 140, both in terms of pricing power and size, but the plan was to bring in larger RJs. But, that wouldn't last for more than a couple of years after exiting from Chapter 11. At some point, the 145 fleet would be reduced. Again, there are routes that don't need a CRJ700 or larger for every flight, and the pricing was such that flying a 145 would make money.

The only surprise is that AA is now going to place 47 CRJ700s with other airlines. Clearly, the plan appeared to shift pilots and F/As to larger RJs while retiring the 135 and 140 fleet and reducing the size of the 145 fleet. Now, there won't be the shifting of crews to larger RJs, but the retirements of the 140s will commence.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 78): The parking of the 140s isn't a surprise.

The -140s were actually supposed to be mostly gone already, but management realized they needed them and postponed the drawdown schedule for them sometime last fall, I think it was.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77): Now that said I fully expect some relaxation of the 1500 hour rule.

I certainly can't say for sure, but I can't imagine them changing the 1500 hour rule. However, what I CAN see them doing, and this has been mentioned my a few Eagle Check Airmen along with quite a number of line pilots, is bringing the ICAO MPL to the US. We've resisted so far, but there's a big push to bring in the MPL (Multi-Crew Pilot License). With all of the effort to start new bridge programs with various colleges and flight schools, I could see the regionals push hard for something like that to alleviate staffing problems. Time will tell, of course.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter): and move 47 CRJ700s to another regional carrier.

Good luck to AA in finding a cheaper carrier for those that can hire enough pilots to operate them reliably. Just because they say it doesn't mean they can.

Quoting apodino (Reply 70): It does appear that ZW will have the 50 seaters through at least 2017, as AA has indicated these will be repainted in AE colors due to what they deem as an unacceptable paint condition on a fleet they say will last until 2017.

That would be news to all of us over here as we were told once again that once the contract is up in 2015, Air Wisconsin would no longer be as big a part, if any part of the US/AA operations. We were also told in one of our recent calls that the maintenance hangar that ZW has in PHL is being closed sometime in early 2015 and another company will be operating out of it. What company that is we were not told. It sounds like they might be shifting any future ZW work, after 2015, to another part of the country to fill a void if what your saying is true that the ZW CR2's will be here until 2017.

Quoting 747d10 (Reply 71), "noticed an E145 with the callsign ENVOYSUX."

and Acey559 (Reply 74), "people would put BANKRUPT in there a lot. It wasn't until later that a lot of us realized that actually gets broadcast."

Not funny. Unfortunately, these actions speak volumes about the lack of professionalism, integrity, and maturity of many pilots who fly for commuter airlines. What a shame it is.

e38

Quoting e38 (Reply 82):

Couldn't agree with you more. Distraction in the cockpit leads to unsafe behavior. Amazing how so many believe that they are bigger then the company. Egos.......

Quoting B757capt (Reply 83): Distraction in the cockpit leads to unsafe behavior.

Sorry, but how exactly is altering one of the transponder outputs (which you do once, probably before the flight ever moves) a source of distraction?

-Mir

It causes people to think about the Boards who turned their stockholder's shares into paper. That's definitely a distraction.

Quoting Mir (Reply 84):

Still immature, which is not something "professionals" do

Do you agree with these actions?

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 80):

AA will probably transfer them to PSA, as they are a fully owned subsidary or maybe they could transfer them to Piedmont and get rid of the Dash 8s faster.

I think that Envoy will disapear within the next 5-10 years, it is very sad to see so many pilots loose they jobs. I have a friend who works for PSA and he said they have had an influx of Envoy pilots, who were made redundant by AA, who want hiring to work on the PSA CRJ 700 as more orignal PSA captains and first officiers start training to tranfer to the CRJ 900.

Quoting kd5mdk (Reply 85): It causes people to think about the Boards who turned their stockholder's shares into paper. That's definitely a distraction.

Other way around. It's the irritation with the company that causes people to do stuff like that. That irritation would still be there.

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 86): Still immature, which is not something "professionals" do Do you agree with these actions?

I probably wouldn't do it, no. On the other hand, it is possibly the least harmful way of showing displeasure with the company other than complaining about the company as part of normal cockpit conversation, so I don't think it's a big deal.

-Mir

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 79): is bringing the ICAO MPL to the US.

Since it is relevant to the thread, please explain more.

Lightsaber

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 81): That would be news to all of us over here as we were told once again that once the contract is up in 2015, Air Wisconsin would no longer be as big a part, if any part of the US/AA operations. We were also told in one of our recent calls that the maintenance hangar that ZW has in PHL is being closed sometime in early 2015 and another company will be operating out of it. What company that is we were not told. It sounds like they might be shifting any future ZW work, after 2015, to another part of the country to fill a void if what your saying is true that the ZW CR2's will be here until 2017.

My source for my comment was AA route planning themselves. I don't know who keeps feeding you bad info about ZW but I am sure it is not anyone from DFW or PHX who works in HQ.

That being said, there are a lot of rumors about ZWs future, but like I said, nobody knows anything for sure because nothing is public. What I do know is this. They are hiring faster than just about any regional out there right now. USAirways is paying for them to get Cat II certified, which would be a complete waste of money if US/AA plans to just let them go after 2015. Again, AA is going to have the ZW planes repainted into AE colors, which I doubt they would do if they are simply going away after 2015.

I wouid not read too much into the PHL hangar deal. The fact is that the location of the hangar has given ZW a lot of problems with recruiting and retaining mechanics. The big issue there is the hangar is in the city limits of PHL. Why thats an issue is because most of the other hangars at the airport (on the West side of the field) are all in Tinicium township. The city of Philadelphia levies a city income tax, while Tinicium Township does not. Thus any prospective mechanic is much more likely to go work for Republic or Mainline where they don't have to pay any city taxes, and are probably in the case of mainline, earning more than ZW, even though the ZW mechanics have a pretty nice contract. I am not sure if ZW found a hangar across the airport, or if they are just going to give the hangar to someone and base their MX operations in Tinicium somehow so that they can attract some talent, which they have sorely needed in PHL.

That being said, there is a rumor also that ZW may have a lot of flying shifted to ORD. If Eagle starts drawing down ERJ flying, this would be the easiest way to replace it in the short term. I am not sure who would replace the PHL flying, unless they are planning to upgauge equipment and use PHL to ramp up the CRJ-900 operation for PSA. One thing is certain. ZW is going to be around until 2017 or 2018 despite everyones insistence that their contract is up in 2015 (which it is, but obviously something got negotiated behind the scenes)

Quoting Mir (Reply 88), "it is possibly the least harmful way of showing displeasure with the company other than complaining about the company as part of normal cockpit conversation, so I don't think it's a big deal."

It may be OK to complain about the company as part of normal cockpit conversation (i.e., in private), but to make a change to the callsign in the RMU or broadcast a negative comment over the radio which will be received by a broad audience is unprofessional and immature, and it is not acceptable.

If you have a problem with your employer, you don't express that displeasure publicly; you find other avenues in which to resolve the issue (i.e., perhaps in this case, rather than complain, they should find another company to work for, or another line of work, as appropriate).

It's called, "taking the High Road."

e38

I think painting all regional pilots as unprofessional because of the actions of literally maybe 5 pilots is a bit of a stretch, but two each their own. As for the RMU thing, people didn't know that was actually broadcast, and when they found out, most people stopped. I found it amusing and it actually took some of the edge off during that time. It's just dumb humor, at least in my opinion.

99% of the captains I flew with during bankruptcy and the second round of contract negotiations actually made it a point in their crew brief to be extra professional during those times. It's easy to get distracted with other thoughts and I commend the professionalism of our pilots, both then and now.

As for the MPL, I'm not exactly sure what's going to happen. There's been a lot of talk about it amongst the feds at Eagle and elsewhere, I'm sure. It's a way to legally allow 250 hour pilots back into the cockpit and alleviate the current staffing issues. I'll get a hold of one of the check airmen I still talk to and see what info he has about it.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 92), "I'll get a hold of one of the check airmen I still talk to and see what info he has about it."

Thanks, it would be good to know.

Also quoting Acey559 (Reply 92), "It's a way to legally allow 250 hour pilots back into the cockpit."

This would be absolutely frightening and I cannot possibly imagine why the FAA would allow air carrier operations to return to this level of experience. When I travel, I find the biggest concern among passengers who are forced to fly aboard regional aircraft--due to lack of other options--is the possibility that the flight crew has very low flight experience. I think if everything goes exactly as planned, a 250 hour pilot is satisfactory, but when the weather is bad, the aircraft experiences a malfunction, or some other irregular operation, absolutely, you do not want a pilot aboard with as few as 250 - 300 or even as low as 500 flight hours in the flight deck.

e38

Quoting e38 (Reply 93): but when the weather is bad, the aircraft experiences a malfunction, or some other irregular operation, absolutely, you do not want a pilot aboard with as few as 250 - 300 or even as low as 500 flight hours in the flight deck.

Who is to say that the pilot with 1500 plus hours has ever gone through anything like that and knows how to react?

Quoting e38 (Reply 93): but when the weather is bad, the aircraft experiences a malfunction, or some other irregular operation, absolutely, you do not want a pilot aboard with as few as 250 - 300 or even as low as 500 flight hours in the flight deck.

I'd personally rather have a 500 hour pilot with 250 hours of regional jet experience in a bad situation than a 1500 hour pilot that's just came out of class and has been diddly bopping around in a C172 in mostly VFR conditions for years.

Quoting e38 (Reply 93): I think if everything goes exactly as planned, a 250 hour pilot is satisfactory, but when the weather is bad, the aircraft experiences a malfunction, or some other irregular operation, absolutely, you do not want a pilot aboard with as few as 250 - 300 or even as low as 500 flight hours in the flight deck.

Why not? Airline basic indoc, groundschool, sim training, and IOE, and the standards used to train and enforce policies and procedures don't change whether you've only got a fresh commercial ticket, or have 10,000 hours flying crop dusters. And where's the captain in all of this this? Are his decisions, training, and experience irrelevant?

I'm not in any way endorsing that someone should go out and apply at airlines while their commercial ticket is still wet, but the number of hours someone has when starting their first airline job is not a clear indicator of how well they will perform out on the line. Training and standards are what's key here, since they'll weed out unfit candidates before they get to that point.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 96): since they'll weed out unfit candidates before they get to that point.

At most places they will......How about Colgan when they were still in business?

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 97): At most places they will......How about Colgan when they were still in business?

They... were special. And dragged everyone else down with them.

Quoting e38 (Reply 93): When I travel, I find the biggest concern among passengers who are forced to fly aboard regional aircraft--due to lack of other options--is the possibility that the flight crew has very low flight experience. I think if everything goes exactly as planned, a 250 hour pilot is satisfactory, but when the weather is bad, the aircraft experiences a malfunction, or some other irregular operation, absolutely, you do not want a pilot aboard with as few as 250 - 300 or even as low as 500 flight hours in the flight deck.

Don't fly foreign airlines then. That's almost exclusively what their entry level pilots are. A lot of them are even trained at the same schools here in the US that our homegrown pilots train at.

I actually met ANA's latest class several weeks ago in Chicago where they train.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 96): I'm not in any way endorsing that someone should go out and apply at airlines while their commercial ticket is still wet, but the number of hours someone has when starting their first airline job is not a clear indicator of how well they will perform out on the line. Training and standards are what's key here, since they'll weed out unfit candidates before they get to that point.

Exactly.

There hasn't been a commercial airline crash in the US that I can recall that was the result of inexperience. Colgan certainly wasn't - even the FO had >2000 hrs.