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smokeybandit
Topic Author
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U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 5:34 pm

The computers at the L.A. Center are programmed to keep commercial airliners and other aircraft from colliding with each other. The U-2 was flying at 60,000 feet, but the computers were attempting to keep it from colliding with planes that were actually miles beneath it.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investig...ol-computers-shuts-down-lax-n95886
 
b747400erf
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 5:51 pm

A scary thought for all the people who want computers instead of pilots flying and controlling.
 
N766UA
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 9:04 pm

Haha I freakin' love ERAM.

Presumably this was an issue with the conflict alert. Not really sure what that has to do with unmanned aircraft?
 
MrBuzzcut
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 9:14 pm

I like the part where they go on about Edwards AFB and speculating whether it came from there. Just a little more time on Google for the journalist would have led him to Beale AFB north of Sacramento, which is the home to the entire U2 fleet.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 3):
Just a little more time on Google for the journalist would have led him to Beale AFB north of Sacramento, which is the home to the entire U2 fleet.

It could have been one of the NASA ER2's out of Edwards.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Metjetceo
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 9:36 pm

Since it was LAX it must have been the paparazzi owned U2 with special cameras  
 
LN-KGL
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 10:11 pm

Has easyJet started to fly to USA now - don't they enough with Virgin?
 
WesternFlyer
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 10:42 pm

Did'nt know U-2s still were flying.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 10:57 pm

Controller didn't enter a VFR OTP altitude for the U2 at FL600. According to my FAA sources, when no altitude is input. ERAM begins going through all the coordination in the background. Only issue is... When it does this with no altitude it picks a low altitude which means that it's trying to automatically coordinate with tons of facilities that it believes the aircraft will be flying through (even though it wasn't because we know it was up at FL600). Eventually ERAM filled the buffer due to all that data being processed and the system failed. The kicker is that it was a known issue and apparently a patch had already been done. It just hadn't gone live yet.
 
b747400erf
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 2):

Presumably this was an issue with the conflict alert. Not really sure what that has to do with unmanned aircraft?

Software controlling everything with no human pilot causing unintended consequences and bugs that would not be easy to fix.
 
LN-KGL
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sat May 03, 2014 11:46 pm

Glad the real queen of the sky, the Concorde, isn't flying anymore. She would have I guess knocked out the LA computers both on altitude and speed.
 
fwyakcub
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:02 am

I thought we were going to find out that Bono or The Edge were signing autographs for the controllers and flights were being delayed...  
 
varigb707
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:05 am

Dang Irish lads... I knew it was them.   JK.... Unbelievable situation though.   
First, I said 'hey' and then I said 'now'. "Hey Now!" - Hank K.
 
homer787
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:06 am

I wonder what the SR-71s out of Beale AFB used to do to ATC. 60,000+ and 1,800 MPH.
 
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777Jet
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:13 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 1):
A scary thought for all the people who want computers instead of pilots flying and controlling.

              

That will be the day when I stop flying...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
roseflyer
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 4:48 am

Quoting homer787 (Reply 13):

I wonder what the SR-71s out of Beale AFB used to do to ATC. 60,000+ and 1,800 MPH.


ERAM is only a few years old. I don't think there was much monitoring going on in glass E airspace since it is essentially VFR up above 60,000ft. I am not an expert on the system, so maybe someone else can comment.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
CPH-R
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 3):
I like the part where they go on about Edwards AFB and speculating whether it came from there. Just a little more time on Google for the journalist would have led him to Beale AFB north of Sacramento, which is the home to the entire U2 fleet.

.. or Plant 42 at Palmdale, where the U-2 is serviced and flight tested.
 
737tdi
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 5:59 am

Well, what no one has addressed! What aircraft are flying even higher? You have to know that 50's/60's technology has been far surpassed. I am not talking about satellites. I am speaking of other classified aircraft. Do you really think that the govt. would have retired the SR71 if there was nothing better? Yes satellites can take awesome pics. but I don't think they are quite as good as real time. There is another aircraft out there.

Remember this post. You will see in the next 10 years that it has been working for 10 years before. JMO.

Caveat: I haven't seen it, worked on it or, seen it. I'm just guessing with an intelligent brain housing group.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 10:07 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 17):
I'm just guessing with an intelligent brain housing group.

Housed under a tinfoil hat, I presume?

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 8):
According to my FAA sources, when no altitude is input. ERAM begins going through all the coordination in the background.

Seems logical. It then essentially becomes a primary target with no altitude indication and the system rightly treats it as a potential conflicting traffic at all altitudes, to be safe.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting MrBuzzcut (Reply 3):

If were out of Beale it would have taken down NORCAL.

My guess is Edwards or Palmdale. What a damn mess that the system doesn't reject the oddball flight plan, but instead a starts trying to compensate for it. Scary.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
SPREE34
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:46 pm

The U2 has nothing to do with this. The type of aircraft had nothing to do with this. No onboard equipment on any aircraft would have or could cause anything like this to happen. This was purely a data processing issue, based on an assigned altitude entry, and the processing requirements of the particular aircraft's ground track. That that aircraft type wa a U2 is irrelevant, unless you are a media spook, conspiracy theorist type who needs attention.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 20):

I don't think anyone is implying this had anything to do with the aircraft. But where it came from would determine which center is affected because of where the flight plan would have been entered.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
KDTWflyer
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 4:05 pm

The U2 or NASA ER-2 is a pretty awesome airplane. Here is one flying right now over the Carolina's at 60,000 ft...

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA809

I believe the other NASA one is

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA806

I find it interesting that the news article claims it was "a U-2 with a Defense Department flight plan" so who knows about that but it is definitely cool to see the "Dragon Lady" still flying around after all these years. Now if only they will resurrect the SR-71 
 
flyaas80
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 4:44 pm

Very interesting flight plan(s), for the respective planes. Any ideas as to what they're up to? Training or they mapping something?

[Edited 2014-05-04 10:03:59]
The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
 
N766UA
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 9):
Software controlling everything with no human pilot causing unintended consequences and bugs that would not be easy to fix.

Right, but in this case the software doesn't actually control anything. The conflict alert is just that, a displayed alert. There were human controllers, human pilots, and nothing automated to speak of with regard to control of any of the aircraft involved.

This article is actually rather poorly written. "The computers at the L.A. Center are programmed to keep commercial airliners and other aircraft from colliding with each other" does seem to imply that there is some kind of direct control there. In reality, the "computers" are designed to give plenty of warning to the controller that a conflict is possible, but they don't actually control anything whatsoever. It's still controllers, pilots, and radios (and TCAS), same as it ever was.
 
N766UA
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Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 15):
ERAM is only a few years old.

ERAM, operationally, is brand new. Many of the largest ARTCC's in the country only JUST started using it on the floor.
 
prosa
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RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 5:08 pm

While the U-2 is a pretty amazing aircraft, the procedure for landing one is really off the charts.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
KDTWflyer
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Sun May 04, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 23):
Very interesting flight plan(s), for the respective planes. Any ideas as to what they're up to? Training or they mapping something?

Sweet it looks like NASA is using them to understand precipitation patterns in the mountainous Appalachian region...

http://phys.org/news/2014-05-nasa-fi...ampaign-southern-appalachians.html

This is the flight they are apparently using to conduct these observations...

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NASA809
 
bunumuring
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Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm

RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Mon May 05, 2014 9:15 am

Quoting fwyakcub (Reply 11):
I thought we were going to find out that Bono or The Edge were signing autographs for the controllers and flights were being delayed...
Quoting varigb707 (Reply 12):
Dang Irish lads... I knew it was them. JK.... Unbelievable situation though.

Hey guys!
I initially thought it was U2 the rock band as well! I quickly dismissed U2 the airline, and thus the band that gave the world great songs like 'Breathe' (best by far...), 'Walk On' and 'One' seemed to me to be causing some kind of LAX mayhem like the time they filmed the video for 'Beautiful Day' in Paris CDG (incidentally in the terminal where the ceiling later tragically collapsed).
... and as to the 'real' U2 that caused issues at LAX, I'm sure it was based somewhere - where the streets have no names ...
Sorry. Couldn't help myself!
Keep smiling,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: U-2 Causes ATC Problems At LAX

Tue May 06, 2014 6:34 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 18):
Housed under a tinfoil hat, I presume?

HaHa: Absolutely not. I was just stating that there are much more sophisticated aircraft from the US, UK, France, China, Russia. I worked on military aircraft both in and out of the military and I can tell you nothing. Just kidding, I could tell you but.....

There is no question there are military aircraft that can generate enough EMI to shutdown large cities. It has been done by accident. There are ships that can do the same.

Did a U2 do this, I would say No but who knows? Kelly Johnson was a genius as far as aircraft tech. and there are people just as good now and people as good in electronic disruption. Hell, a guy was just arrested for blocking cell signals for 2 years, IN HIS CAR. No tinfoil hats, this stuff works. Make fun if you want but your internet, IPhone, Droid, home phone could and can be mute if it was wanted. Later

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