Emirates To Improve First Class

KarelXWB · Sun May 04, 2014 5:35 pm

With all the focus on Etihad now cooling down, Emirates airline today revealed plans to offer bedrooms with room service on its A380 and future 777-9 aircraft. According to a Wall Street Journal interview with Emirates President Tim Clark, "the bedroom concept will take it to the next level" and is already in advanced stages. The official announcement might follow very soon.

Not that much information available but it may be clear that Emirates will keep innovating.

Story:
http://tinyurl.com/ooj62ym

Miami · Sun May 04, 2014 5:44 pm

Of course Emirates is going to do the same thing as Etihad. Emirates doesn't want to be beat. BUT they've just got beat with Etihad's A380 cabin. Now, it appears they want to take back what was there's first. Which I'm pretty sure they will win once again with the "NEW" A380 cabin.

MaverickM11 · Sun May 04, 2014 6:07 pm

Pretending for one second this isn't all about ego, didn't EK recently publicly state they were underwhelmed by F sales?

global2 · Sun May 04, 2014 6:11 pm

I wonder--how much do those onboard showers actually get used?

AWACSooner · Sun May 04, 2014 6:37 pm

Onboard bedroom? Here comes the MHC crowd

Stitch · Sun May 04, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Not that much information available but it may be clear that Emirates will keep innovating.

An interesting note from the article is that even at full-fare, First Class fares between DXB and major cities is around one-fifth of what a private jet would cost to charter for the same trip.

Many have offered the opinion that First Class is an anachronism because those who can afford a full-fare ticket could instead fly on a private jet and enjoy more amenities and comfort - like a real bed, private bathroom and such. Now with products like "The Residence", that level of privacy and luxury can now be had on a commercial flight and even if the price is 100% or even 200% that of a First Class ticket, it's still significantly cheaper than chartering your own private jet.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 5):
Onboard bedroom? Here comes the MHC crowd.

SQ has offered that in Suites Class on their A380-800s for years - you can combine the center pair of beds.

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Photo © Sam Chui

[Edited 2014-05-04 12:44:08]

migair54 · Sun May 04, 2014 7:40 pm

It took only one or two days for them to reply to the "new" EY concept, it is going to be interesting, we have some airlines discontinuing First and some other going a leap forward and offering even more luxury and exclusivity. In my opinion improving business will be more profitable in the long run, and maybe having economy comfort in the planes, but I know for some airlines offering exclusivity is a question of company image and prestige.

Do you think that offering this extra mile of first or beyond (apartment) is better than having more business/first class seats in that same space? how many routes can support that kind of luxury??

The residence on the EY A380 fare on LHR-AUH-LHR goes for around 40.000 USD (2 pax) (according to reply 28 Etihad Releasing New F/J Seats Today (4 May) (by NZ107 May 3 2014 in Civil Aviation) )

I don´t know how much is a charter plane to do the same route but if you can pay that for the residence, is not better to have your private flight??

I think this time they have gone way too far with this, but if they prove me wrong it will be great for them...

KarelXWB · Sun May 04, 2014 7:42 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
I don´t know how much is a charter plane to do the same route but if you can pay that for the residence, is not better to have your private flight??

Per James Hogan (EY CEO):

Quote:
"The Residence" will be available on Etihad's order of 10 A380s, the first of which will be delivered in December. It will priced at about $20,000 for a one-way trip between Abu Dhabi and London, which compares with the cost of about $100,000 for a private jet, according to Etihad Chief Executive James Hogan.

AWACSooner · Sun May 04, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
SQ has offered that in Suites Class on their A380-800s for years - you can combine the center pair of beds.

Yah...but this is Emirates...they are going to do it bigger and better

jeffh747 · Mon May 05, 2014 12:52 am

Of course they're going to keep innovating- Emirates' A380 F class is the first thing I think of when I hear things like 'luxury' or 'money'. They don't want that to change and they surely don't want to be challenged. Should be interesting what they come up with next. Aside from the contrasts in management, I would go as far to say- in terms of luxury- Emirates is the Pan Am of the modern world.

CaliAtenza · Mon May 05, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 4):
Onboard bedroom? Here comes the MHC crowd

I think "The Residence" on Etihad will be pretty apt for that. Private, nobody to disturb you...make as much noise as you want!

EricR · Mon May 05, 2014 1:47 am

I personally prefer flying premium class instead of flying with the peasants in economy. However, I think bedrooms on commercial flights is over the top and not the best way to maximize revenue with the limited amount of space available. Overseas international first class is usually over $10k. It appears to me this will take up more than 2 F class seats, thus removing more revenue seats than the price of the bedroom will bring in.

spacecadet · Mon May 05, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 10):
Private, nobody to disturb you...make as much noise as you want!

You can do that in your hotel when you get to your destination too - and have more room, a more romantic view, and mood music if you want. I don't get people who would use these private bedrooms for that. I'm sure there are people who will, but an airplane just has to be about the least romantic setting I can think of. And the whole point of the MHC was always the forbidden novelty of it; when you've got a space that looks pretty much *made* for it, it loses its excitement.

incitatus · Mon May 05, 2014 4:08 am

Air travel is more and more about volume. These super-F products will be loss-leaders subsidized by the unwashed masses squeezed in the back.

Stitch · Mon May 05, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
Air travel is more and more about volume. These super-F products will be loss-leaders subsidized by the unwashed masses squeezed in the back.

First and (especially) Business Class pay for the flight. Economy is just there to pad out the profit margin.

777Jet · Mon May 05, 2014 4:13 am

The next step up would be to provide on-demand massage service if you fly in one of these so called 'bed-rooms'...

[Edited 2014-05-04 21:14:59]

Norcal773 · Mon May 05, 2014 4:33 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 15):
The next step up would be to provide on-demand massage service if you fly in one of these so called 'bed-rooms'...

Not if it doesn't come with a happy ending.

For those taking about volume and poor space utilization, I thought I read on the Etihad thread that the space where the suites will be is dead space anyways, not revenue space in normal seating?

MaverickM11 · Mon May 05, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
First and (especially) Business Class pay for the flight. Economy is just there to pad out the profit margin.

I'd say business and economy pay their way. First is more of an anachronism that airlines can't quite figure out how to profit from--either it's a PR tool as in this case, and/or something airlines hope will generate a halo effect for their other products. Either way I think it's a big loss leader for most (all?) airlines.

incitatus · Mon May 05, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
First and (especially) Business Class pay for the flight. Economy is just there to pad out the profit margin.

I am aware that business class "pays" for the flight. Not sure about First. The trend of abolishing/reducing First has not stopped. TAM was the latest last week. Economy though,... not aware of any large airline tossing it out.

B777LRF · Mon May 05, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
I don´t know how much is a charter plane to do the same route but if you can pay that for the residence, is not better to have your private flight??

A private jet, say a G-V, Falcon 7 or GLX, will set you back roughly USD 15K per hour. Move up to a BBJ or ACJ, and you can easily double that price. That means a return AUH-LHR will be around USD 200K in a G or 400K in a BBJ, which makes the 'Residence' look like a bargain.

With the amount of money a lot of people holding a GCC passport have at their disposal, blowing 40K on a trip to London doesn't look half bad. Particularly when you consider the Lambo or Fezza they're taking with them in the hold commands a one-way price of around 15K - and you can't bring a Lambo or Fezza with you in the G or BBJ

S75752 · Mon May 05, 2014 4:45 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 15):
The next step up would be to provide on-demand massage service if you book on of these so called 'bed-rooms'...

I wonder if anyone from EK reads these forums. Now that you mention it, it might be a possibility.

DocLightning · Mon May 05, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):

Of course Emirates is going to do the same thing as Etihad. Emirates doesn't want to be beat. BUT they've just got beat with Etihad's A380 cabin. Now, it appears they want to take back what was there's first. Which I'm pretty sure they will win once again with the "NEW" A380 cabin.

Of course they will. There are some egos at work out there and sometimes straight "bean counting" doesn't win the argument. Sometimes that's good and sometimes that's not so good. I'm not sure if this is the best idea. Perhaps a Y+ might make a difference, but status is important in that part of the world and this sort of product will probably be well-received. Y+ might be something that these carriers work on next.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
Do you think that offering this extra mile of first or beyond (apartment) is better than having more business/first class seats in that same space? how many routes can support that kind of luxury??

Well, so far The Residence seems to occupy area that would otherwise be occupied by service space or a lounge. So if EY can make enough out of that space on a single flight to pay for an Ivy League education, then they're doing something right. Because I promise you that the Savoy-trained butler and private chef don't cost $40,000 R/T. It wouldn't shock me if the margin were 50% when this seat sells. If it's that high, then it won't be so bad when it's unoccupied.

UALWN · Mon May 05, 2014 12:14 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
First and (especially) Business Class pay for the flight. Economy is just there to pad out the profit margin.

And yet not a single all-J airline has managed to succeed, while all-Y airlines are thriving.

dtw2hyd · Mon May 05, 2014 12:32 pm

EK has to do something to stay in top 10 in premium QoS category. Being #10, it could easily drop out of that list. Does this mean EK now will have 4 types of premium cabins? I suppose Y gets more cozier on ME3.

coolian2 · Mon May 05, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 22):
And yet not a single all-J airline has managed to succeed, while all-Y airlines are thriving.

Let them be. Us disgusting unwashed masses are lucky enough to be separated from them for the most part

cjg225 · Mon May 05, 2014 12:47 pm

Just saw this earlier. Anyone got a spare 20g?

Hey, if I had the money, I'd try that out just for kicks.

UALWN · Mon May 05, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 24):
Let them be. Us disgusting unwashed masses are lucky enough to be separated from them for the most part

Hear, hear. We the peasants, as somebody upthread called people in economy...

LH422 · Mon May 05, 2014 2:22 pm

It seems to make much more sense for EK since they have a much larger A380 fleet. Who'd want to fly LHR-AUH in Residence and then have to make do with regular First on on the AUH-SYD leg?

Also, EK already has two showers in their A380. Why not make one of them exclusive to one or two passengers?

They probably won't retrofit all A380, though, especially the high-capacity ones.

waly777 · Mon May 05, 2014 2:44 pm

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
Air travel is more and more about volume. These super-F products will be loss-leaders subsidized by the unwashed masses squeezed in the back.

Most airlines make a loss with F, thus the continued reduction of airlines offering it. However 1 or 2 do turn a profit in F and the carrier in discussion is one of them. There's a reason why F&J was responsible for 8% of the air travel market but 26% of the profits.

Y doesn't subsize anything, Y barely covers the cost of operations on long haul flights. J covers the rest if any and prints out the profits. These super F products as you've called them are much more than about revenue, they are a brand image and do help in marketing cost reductions thanks to social media where the world can see it and aspire to fly the airline as a result....even if most of them will fly with Y.

Good on EY, a fantastic premium product and a nice touch up to Y. It will certainly be interesting to see what EK can do seeing as EY has set the bar so high.

j77w · Mon May 05, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 8):
Yah...but this is Emirates...they are going to do it bigger and better

If that really is the case, why didn't they "do bigger and better" with the A380 in 2007?

When SQ commenced A380 operations with Suites Class, a lot of us assumed that EK would take the opportunity and really 'go to town' on their first class.

What we saw was an almost identical copy of the existing suite on their other aircraft.

flylonghaul · Mon May 05, 2014 5:03 pm

Quoting LH422 (Reply 27):
Who'd want to fly LHR-AUH in Residence and then have to make do with regular First on on the AUH-SYD leg?

EY is reportedly going to serve SYD with the 380 as of next year, so potential customers can fly the entire trip in "The Residence" And I'm sure that the price would be significantly cheaper than chartering.
Other destinations mentioned were CDG and MEL, and I believe JFK also. Which would seem to me to keep the entire fleet fairly busy.

I would imagine the LHR and SYD would probably be the first city pair for EK as well. If not first then high on the list.

EK is really going to have to pull out all the stops with their new offering if they want to go one better than EY! The product they have unveiled is unbelievable!
Best of luck to them. I am definitely looking forward to seeing how it comes out.

coolian2 · Mon May 05, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 26):
Hear, hear. We the peasants, as somebody upthread called people in economy...

Pretty safe to say some people have different priorities. I don't have much of a fuss about sitting in a chair for a few hours rather than having my proverbial pampered if it means I stay at a nicer place, or do nicer things, or stay somewhere longer.

A little mutual respect would be amazing around here. I could comfortably fly J or Y+ (depending on how far I felt like going), but I'm pretty small and really I'm relaxed about how comfortable I need to be, and that makes me an unwashed peasant. When the dates have suited I've flown the premium classes if they end up cheaper than Y because I NEED to travel on a date, and if it's long haul, I'm sorry for being the guy that'll board the plane in jeans and a nice shirt, and switch to track pants and a comfortable t-shirt once we're in cruise.

With that said, I do enjoy reading about (and I do actually like nice things) F+J products. It just seems rude to judge people on the class of travel they elect to travel in.

I'm not sure if I had a point here? But I do look forward to seeing what EK bring to the table against EY - unless they choose to make it a pissing contest, they'd be smarter to just refresh their current product.

LH422 · Mon May 05, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting flylonghaul (Reply 30):
EY is reportedly going to serve SYD with the 380 as of next year, so potential customers can fly the entire trip in "The Residence" And I'm sure that the price would be significantly cheaper than chartering.
Other destinations mentioned were CDG and MEL, and I believe JFK also. Which would seem to me to keep the entire fleet fairly busy.

Oops, bad example, I only remembered MEL. So let's take LHR-AUH-SIN or CDG-AUH-JNB. There are not a lot of city pairs that will have A380 the whole way on EY, except for the O&D flights with AUH at one end.

Stitch · Mon May 05, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 22):
And yet not a single all-J airline has managed to succeed, while all-Y airlines are thriving.

Because they fly one city-pair that is purely reliant on O&D traffic that has significant competition from established legacy carriers that offer more flights with connecting opportunities at each end and frequent flier programs.

All-Y airlines are not purely reliant on O&D traffic, they offer multiple daily flights, they offer connecting opportunities at each end and they offer frequent flier programs.

B777LRF · Mon May 05, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting LH422 (Reply 27):
Who'd want to fly LHR-AUH in Residence and then have to make do with regular First on on the AUH-SYD leg?

I think you're getting the audience for the 'Residence' class of travel very wrong here mate. It's not intended for passenger transiting AUH; it's aimed squarely the extremely wealthy local residents and their shopping trips to Europe, London and Paris in particular. That is to say, those rich enough to not bat much of an eyelid dropping 40K USD on a return to London, but who are not quite rich enough to buy their own private jets. The 'lower-class' of AUH royalty in particular.

It's the same reason why QR only offers F-class on a limited number of services which, again, are those to Paris and London.

ZOROS · Mon May 05, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 34):

Exactly, another point to mention, Etihad only offers First class to around 15-18 destinations. LHR, CDG, DUS, MUC, ZRH, GVA, IST, JFK, IAD, GRU, BOM, DEL, SYD, MEL, ICN, NRT of the top of my head. Im sure First class on EY is mainly stimulated by O&D. This is the total opposite to EK which basically has a first class cabin to all its destinations except a few low yielding high volume cities.

UALWN · Mon May 05, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Because they fly one city-pair that is purely reliant on O&D traffic that has significant competition from established legacy carriers that offer more flights with connecting opportunities at each end and frequent flier programs.

Nothing prevented them from flying to many more destinations, or even from establishing a hub. Alas, none of them has managed to last long enough to be able to expand...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
All-Y airlines are not purely reliant on O&D traffic, they offer multiple daily flights, they offer connecting opportunities at each end and they offer frequent flier programs.

I'm not aware of the FF programs of, say, FR, U2 or NK. Yet they're printing money.

Stitch · Mon May 05, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 36):
Nothing prevented them from flying to many more destinations, or even from establishing a hub.

I'd argue lack of start-up capital prevented it...

Quoting UALWN (Reply 36):
I'm not aware of the FF programs of, say, FR, U2 or NK. Yet they're printing money.

Of course I noted that FF programs were but one of a number of items...

And NK does have one.

EK413 · Mon May 05, 2014 9:40 pm

Question is with airlines introducing the "bedrooms" how will this impact the over all weight of the A380?

EK413

KarelXWB · Mon May 05, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 38):
Question is with airlines introducing the "bedrooms" how will this impact the over all weight of the A380?

Those cabins are heavier. The additional fuel burn is included in the higher ticket price

lightsaber · Tue May 06, 2014 2:35 am

My opinion was EK needed to cut the F cabin on many routes. Is this a way to disguise the reduction in floor space (mainly by reducing seats) while still keeping cities on the "First class route network?"

Quoting incitatus (Reply 18):
I am aware that business class "pays" for the flight. Not sure about First. The trend of abolishing/reducing First has not stopped. TAM was the latest last week. Economy though,... not aware of any large airline tossing it out.

First is tough. You either have the product to attract customers... or they just downgrade to J or upgrade to a chartered jet. Only a few airlines seem to pull it off...

Y can be profitable, but the higher returns are J. That I have to agree with Stitch. You can make a profit on Y. One must have Y to 'seed the market' and survive economic contractions. But the real profit is the right J class.

Lightsaber

777Jet · Tue May 06, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 16):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 15):
The next step up would be to provide on-demand massage service if you fly in one of these so called 'bed-rooms'...

Not if it doesn't come with a happy ending.

I wanted to write it but I knew that you would write it for me

I believe there was a QF FA who gave even better service to certain celebrity pax in the past...

Maybe EK will be the first airline to start a real 'Mile-High Club'... j/k

UALWN · Tue May 06, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
I'd argue lack of start-up capital prevented it...

I'd say lack of success. With success, it's easy to raise capital.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
And NK does have one.

Amazing. Didn't know that. Thanks. As for your other points: FR and others are pure p2p too, offer no connection opportunities whatsoever, and fly many routes only a few times per week. Yet, they are wildly successful.

LH422 · Tue May 06, 2014 7:10 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 34):
I think you're getting the audience for the 'Residence' class of travel very wrong here mate. It's not intended for passenger transiting AUH; it's aimed squarely the extremely wealthy local residents and their shopping trips to Europe, London and Paris in particular.

This has got to be what EY are looking for. EK, on the other hand, can offer this service to wealthy people not just from the UAE but all other continents. I'm sure some companies outside the UAE would also pay the fare for a handful of their employees.

737tdi · Tue May 06, 2014 7:15 am

I make middle wage wages and there is no way I could afford this and no way I would want to. I traveled with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children for 10 years and I no longer have a desire to visit any of those hell holes again. I will never ever leave the US again, maybe. If I were to get a free trip to Norway, Scotland, Ireland, Sweden, Costa Rica, I might go. The first couple I definitely would.

CaliAtenza · Tue May 06, 2014 9:03 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 12):
You can do that in your hotel when you get to your destination too - and have more room, a more romantic view, and mood music if you want. I don't get people who would use these private bedrooms for that. I'm sure there are people who will, but an airplane just has to be about the least romantic setting I can think of. And the whole point of the MHC was always the forbidden novelty of it; when you've got a space that looks pretty much *made* for it, it loses its excitement.

think about it; you can go to a hotel anytime and do it. Its something else to say you did it in a, well pretty much a luxury hotel suite, at 35,000 ft

. BTW, i still don't know how the hell people do the deed in the toilets on the plane. I'm 6ft and i can barely stand in the damn things...let alone do anything else!

Aesma · Tue May 06, 2014 11:00 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
An interesting note from the article is that even at full-fare, First Class fares between DXB and major cities is around one-fifth of what a private jet would cost to charter for the same trip.

Many have offered the opinion that First Class is an anachronism because those who can afford a full-fare ticket could instead fly on a private jet and enjoy more amenities and comfort - like a real bed, private bathroom and such. Now with products like "The Residence", that level of privacy and luxury can now be had on a commercial flight and even if the price is 100% or even 200% that of a First Class ticket, it's still significantly cheaper than chartering your own private jet.

I don't think that argument is about the merits of either way of flying, but about the richness of the rich : they're getting richer.

chieft · Tue May 06, 2014 1:38 pm

"The Residence" is a unique, new product.

Goal clients are not the C-Class upgraders, but - as often enough said here - the biz jet riders, which are now getting an interesting, and more cost effective, offer. For a, compared to a biz jet charter, reduced price you are getting about the same level of comfort and privacy. The client base in UAE is definitely there.

I have not read about the surrounding service of this product. Do the "The Residence" passengers have to board with all the other crowd or is there a special boarding? With a private jet you are pretty flexible and the GA Terminals allowing a quick, but smooth check-in and boarding within Minutes. Can this be ensured at a large airport too?

I think it is an interesting product, a kind of innovation. 40,000 EUR for a return AUH-LON is a hefty price.
Is it worth for an 8 hour ride? It will be definitely for a 13 hour one - if you can afford it.

KarelXWB · Tue May 06, 2014 3:28 pm

Article about this subject on ausbt.com.au:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/emirates-to-launch-airbus-a380-private-bedroom

trent1000 · Wed May 07, 2014 9:39 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
SQ has offered that in Suites Class on their A380-800s for years - you can combine the center pair of beds.

The difference between a "bedroom" concept and SQ's suites is the "ROOM" morpheme.
SQ offers two boxes together that becomes a larger bed. The ME carriers will offer a bed as well as a room (or rooms).
SQ suites will no longer be able to be called "a class beyond first". Let aviation industry innovations roll on!

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