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bwvilla
Topic Author
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Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 6:58 am

Article says that startup airline Odyssey Airlines is starting a crowdfundng drive and from 2016 intends to offer non-stop business class only transatlantic flights from LCY using Bombardier CSeries aircraft.

http://www.businesstraveller.com/new...arrier-launches-crowdfunding-drive

Quite apart from any questions about the viability of business class only airlines, how can it be feasible to operate non-stop transatlantic flights from LCY without refueling in SNN or elsewhere in Europe before heading out across the Atlantic?

[Edited 2014-05-07 00:14:05]
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PanHAM
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 7:41 am

They intend to operate a different aircraft type, the C Series can do what the A318 cannot, fly non-.stop from LCY to JFK..

As long as it takes them 7 or 8 hours and not 10 years that is fine. But I would indeed think twice about the Name. And if crowd funding does not raise enogh Money, they can try Kraut funding, some ideas are cabbage.

As to BA, all it needs is to lease a couple of C series jets, These are likely cheaper to operate the A318.
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UAEflyer
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 8:04 am

A news that British Airways never want to hear
 
mutu
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 8:08 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 2):
A news that British Airways never want to hear

Well as PanHAM says, all BA have to do is get hold of a couple of C series by 2016 (assuming it does indeed get certification for LCY ops).

BA still has the frequent flyer and corporate base at both ends

The BA onborad service and food is actually better than ex LHR, so not sure why anyone would abandon the current BA offering and fly with this start up.

if anything BA already has plans for longhaul expansion at LCY with the capability of the C series in mind

However, as in all things, bring it on and lets see what happens!!
 
LX138
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 9:41 am

It won't last six months. They haven't anything in their favour whatsoever and the competition will undercut them until they are killed off. We've seen it before at STN and LTN.
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AAMDanny
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 10:02 am

is the LCY apron capable of handling all these extra aircraft on the ground? I thought they were stretched to capacity as it is with all the RJ's and the couple of A318's flying in and out? Or is there expansion plans?
 
Baexecutive
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 11:07 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 2):

BA offers -

- FF club - collect & redeem points for flights on this route.
- Onward connections throughout UK & Europe.
- Extensive base at both ends.
- Lounge access including Elemis spa at JFK.
- Specially trained, small pool of crew, often flying with the same customers.
- Pre-clearance of US Immigration at SNN
- Onboard WiFi & data services.
- Robust service recovery & options when things don't go to plan.
- Pre flight dining & Take-away breakfast option on return flight to optimise rest.
- Short check in times at both airports (15mins without bags, 20 with at LCY 45 at JFK).
- Complimentary use of Quintissentially.
- Use of arrivals lounge at Radisson Edwardian on arrival at LCY, including Breakfast options, gym, clothes pressing and help with your onward journey.

I doubt they will be loosing any sleep over it.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Wed May 07, 2014 11:44 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
As to BA, all it needs is to lease a couple of C series jets, These are likely cheaper to operate the A318.

I highly doubt the current 2-2 flat-bed seats used on the BA A318s would fit in the narrower CSeries cabin. They would probably have to 3-abreast (1-2), and how many of the current A318 seats would fit the CSeries in a 1-2 configuration? Probably not even the current 32 seats.
 
KarlB737
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting bwvilla (Thread starter):
Article says that startup airline Odyssey Airlines is starting a crowdfundng drive and from 2016 intends to offer non-stop business class only transatlantic flights from LCY using Bombardier CSeries aircraft.

CNN Story On Odyssey Airlines

Would You Pay To Launch This Airline?

"Odyssey's closest competition at City Airport is a British Airways flight. But the British Airways A318 can't take off from City Airport's short runway (about 4,000 feet) fully fueled and clear the skyline. It makes a stop in Ireland to completely fuel up before heading onto New York."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/07/travel...yc-airports/index.html?hpt=hp_bn10
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):

Would the C series cabin work well with a 1+1 Herringbone configuration? It wouldn't be the same waste of space that it is on larger narrowbodies.
 
planemaker
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 4:26 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
from LCY to JFK.

They say on the crowd funding site that they are not planning on flying to JFK but a NYC area airport.

Here is the link to crowd funding site: Odyssey Crowd Source

Not too many details unless you register. they plan to have 40 lie-flat seats in the CS100 with EIS in 2016. Some of Odyssey's "primary investors" were also backers of SilverJet.

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 5):
Or is there expansion plans?

Yes...

Quote:
The development will comprise seven aircraft parking stands, an extended terminal building, a new eastern passenger pier and associated works on a platform over the King George V Dock.

It is proposed to provide a new passenger forecourt in front of the terminal building together with a new office building (to replace City Aviation House) and a hotel. Passenger and staff car parking will re-organised.

The new aircraft parking stands are proposed to the east of existing aircraft parking stands 21-24. As part of the upgrade works there will be an extension to the aircraft taxiway running along the eastern length of the runway.

A landside access pontoon for use by emergency services will also be provided at the eastern end of the seven new stands.

The proposals are not intended to alter how the airport operates.

The proposals will:

Not increase the permitted number of aircraft movements. The airport will continue to operate up to a maximum limit of 120,000 noise factored movements per annum, as approved by London Borough of Newham in July 2009;

Maintain environmental and operational controls, strategies and systems approved through the 2009 Planning Agreement (with any appropriate amendments, where necessary)

Not create new runways or extend the existing one.
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scbriml
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 6):
BA offers -

- FF club - collect & redeem points for flights on this route.
- Onward connections throughout UK & Europe.
- Extensive base at both ends.
- Lounge access including Elemis spa at JFK.
- Specially trained, small pool of crew, often flying with the same customers.
- Pre-clearance of US Immigration at SNN
- Onboard WiFi & data services.
- Robust service recovery & options when things don't go to plan.
- Pre flight dining & Take-away breakfast option on return flight to optimise rest.
- Short check in times at both airports (15mins without bags, 20 with at LCY 45 at JFK).
- Complimentary use of Quintissentially.
- Use of arrivals lounge at Radisson Edwardian on arrival at LCY, including Breakfast options, gym, clothes pressing and help with your onward journey.

You can also add:
customs clearance at Shannon
OneWorld
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
United885
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 6:35 am

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 6):
Pre-clearance of US Immigration at SNN

I think this is the most important point. The US Immigration in SNN saves much time for business travelers. It´s simply faster and easyer than a LHR - JFK ride.

As i read (sorry i can´t remember where), Odyssey plans not only to serve New York from LCY. They want to operate to business destination like Moscow and Dubai as well.
I know that BA had the same plans quite a time ago. They wanted to add Moscow with A318 service but they never did.
I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
 
Andy33
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 7:53 am

Odyssey may well have ambitions to fly to Moscow, but they are unlikely to fulfill them. London-Moscow flights are governed by a UK-Russia bilateral, and only two airlines from each country are allowed. The UK airlines are BA and easyJet. Note that as both countries have several airports serving their capitals, the bilateral refers to the cities, not the individual airports, so just because nobody flies from LCY-MOW it doesn't mean there is any possibility of a new entrant starting it. While the UK government's policy is to change bilaterals to an EU-wide treaty, Russia has no interest at all in doing so, so it won't happen any time soon.
 
United885
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 8:34 am

Quoting andy33 (Reply 13):
Odyssey may well have ambitions to fly to Moscow, but they are unlikely to fulfill them. London-Moscow flights are governed by a UK-Russia bilateral, and only two airlines from each country are allowed. The UK airlines are BA and easyJet. Note that as both countries have several airports serving their capitals, the bilateral refers to the cities, not the individual airports, so just because nobody flies from LCY-MOW it doesn't mean there is any possibility of a new entrant starting it. While the UK government's policy is to change bilaterals to an EU-wide treaty, Russia has no interest at all in doing so, so it won't happen any time soon.

Thank you for explaining this! I didn´t know about that bilateral agreements.
I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
 
AAMDanny
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Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:06 pm

RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 9:33 am

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 6):

BA offers -

- FF club - collect & redeem points for flights on this route.
- Onward connections throughout UK & Europe.
- Extensive base at both ends.
- Lounge access including Elemis spa at JFK.
- Specially trained, small pool of crew, often flying with the same customers.
- Pre-clearance of US Immigration at SNN
- Onboard WiFi & data services.
- Robust service recovery & options when things don't go to plan.
- Pre flight dining & Take-away breakfast option on return flight to optimise rest.
- Short check in times at both airports (15mins without bags, 20 with at LCY 45 at JFK).
- Complimentary use of Quintissentially.
- Use of arrivals lounge at Radisson Edwardian on arrival at LCY, including Breakfast options, gym, clothes pressing and help with your onward journey.

I doubt they will be loosing any sleep over it.

If Odyssey joined Star Alliance or SkyTeam would they have advantage?

Or would the likes of UA and DL be wanted to protect the J/F services they have going into LHR?
 
PanHAM
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 9:43 am

This would be a point to point Service whoich would not rely too much on Feeder Services, especially since many the origin cities in Europe with offer flights to LCY have their own NYC area flights.


UA / DL would make some more sense, but, ahgain, this is a dead horse. We have seen These ventures come and go and so far not even the big three have set up operations to the USA from outside their own hubs.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 11):
You can also add:
customs clearance at Shannon
OneWorld

Apologies, I missed that baexecutive had already included Shannon pre-clearance. I was reading/posting on my phone (that's my excuse, anyway).

Quoting AAMDanny (Reply 15):
If Odyssey joined Star Alliance or SkyTeam would they have advantage?

I don't think so - how long would they need to have been operating before they'd be able to join an alliance?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 1:57 pm

Would it be possible (and would there be any advantage) for this service to use Teterboro Airport? I know it has customs etc. as it handles international private jet traffic. La Guadia is the closest airport to Manhattan but has the perimeter rules which would rule out its use.
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aviatorcraig
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 2:05 pm

Another thought - how easy would it be for a start-up airline that does not even have an AOC yet to get ETOPS approved from day one on what will be a brand new type?
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
skipness1E
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 2):
A news that British Airways never want to hear
Quoting United885 (Reply 12):
It´s simply faster and easyer than a LHR - JFK ride.

It *can* be on a good day from Canary Wharf but in terms of volume, the market still votes with their feet and uses LHR with T5 and all that comes with it. Not sure whether this service will survive the coming of Crossrail to East London though.
 
Andy33
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Very good point. So within two years they need to complete their funding arrangements, persuade Bombardier to get the C-series certified for use at LCY and deliver at least a couple of planes, including getting some form of lie-flat business seat certified for use with the C-series, get an AOC, hire flight crew who are type-trained on C-series or put them through training, get ETOPS approval without any previous record as an operator, secure slots at LCY and whichever airport they plan to use in New York, put ground handling and maintenance arrangements in place, and start a marketing campaign. That gives them the second half of 2016 to complete all the arrangements while selling seats for when the flights start, presumably towards the end of 2016.
Fantasyland?

This would be tight for an established airline who could miss out a few of the steps by already having an AOC, ground handling and maintenance, and probably ETOPS approval for other types in their fleet. The other business only startups used aircraft types commonly used on transatlantic routes, and airports that were less challenging than LCY.
When BA started transatlantic ops from LCY they were flying to and from airports they already used, they had a pool of Airbus 320 family trained pilots, in house maintenance for 320 series, and a backlog of 320 series orders that could be reshuffled to produce a couple of 318s. It still took over 2 years!
 
jetwet1
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Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 3:00 pm

Quoting andy33 (Reply 21):
Very good point. So within two years they need to complete their funding arrangements, persuade Bombardier to get the C-series certified for use at LCY and deliver at least a couple of planes, including getting some form of lie-flat business seat certified for use with the C-series, get an AOC, hire flight crew who are type-trained on C-series or put them through training, get ETOPS approval without any previous record as an operator, secure slots at LCY and whichever airport they plan to use in New York, put ground handling and maintenance arrangements in place, and start a marketing campaign. That gives them the second half of 2016 to complete all the arrangements while selling seats for when the flights start, presumably towards the end of 2016.
Fantasyland?

In the words of Lloyd Christmas...."So there is a chance"

But then throw this is with it and :

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 6):
BA offers -

- FF club - collect & redeem points for flights on this route.
- Onward connections throughout UK & Europe.
- Extensive base at both ends.
- Lounge access including Elemis spa at JFK.
- Specially trained, small pool of crew, often flying with the same customers.
- Pre-clearance of US Immigration at SNN
- Onboard WiFi & data services.
- Robust service recovery & options when things don't go to plan.
- Pre flight dining & Take-away breakfast option on return flight to optimise rest.
- Short check in times at both airports (15mins without bags, 20 with at LCY 45 at JFK).
- Complimentary use of Quintissentially.
- Use of arrivals lounge at Radisson Edwardian on arrival at LCY, including Breakfast options, gym, clothes pressing and help with your onward journey.

And yeah, another great idea that will be crushed in seconds.

On the face of it, getting 30 people a day to fly LCY-New York wouldn't be an issue, but then as pointed out, getting them to leave (assuming their company doesn't have a contract with BA) is a whole different story.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 22):
In the words of Lloyd Christmas...."So there is a chance"

But then throw this is with it and :

Certainly, on paper "there is a chance"... there is something like over 30 flights a day between London and NYC. So a paper case can be made that they only need to skim off a fraction of the business class pax from those flights.

They are still 2 years away from proposed start of service so it will be interesting to see how things unfold. Going the "crowd funding" route, even if for only "part" of their initial financing, strikes me as being a bit desperate. Obviously the existing crew and investors don't want to pony up any more cash. And neither do investors/financiers as they see just way too much risk in the venture. One thing for sure, this sure isn't a start up like jetBlue with some deep pockets behind it.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
mutu
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Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
As to BA, all it needs is to lease a couple of C series jets, These are likely cheaper to operate the A318.

I highly doubt the current 2-2 flat-bed seats used on the BA A318s would fit in the narrower CSeries cabin. They would probably have to 3-abreast (1-2), and how many of the current A318 seats would fit the CSeries in a 1-2 configuration? Probably not even the current 32 seats.

But the new guys are planning 40 flat beds on the CSeries, so IF they can do it, BA can get 32 on theirs. And if the new guys cant then it wont matter to BA anyways

And when Crossrail opens journey times from Canary Wharf to Heathrow could be about 40 minutes, so maybe thats the end of LCYJFK anyways!!
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Thu May 08, 2014 10:30 pm

I will believe this one when I see it - they have the right people, but I'm not sure if it's the right idea.

Quoting mutu (Reply 24):
And when Crossrail opens journey times from Canary Wharf to Heathrow could be about 40 minutes, so maybe thats the end of LCYJFK anyways!!

The Crossrail 'issue' is a misnomer - LCY's primary attraction is the short check in/arrival times which LHR cannot match.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Viscount724
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Fri May 09, 2014 12:39 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 11):
You can also add:
customs clearance at Shannon

Only on one of the two BA flights. The pre-clearance facility at SNN is closed when the later flight operates so those passengers have to clear on arrival at JFK, unless that's changed very recently.
 
EnviableOne
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Fri May 09, 2014 9:06 am

The Crossrail city-LHR improvement is not much, its about 70 minutes on the tube or 45 via tube and Heathrow express at the minute.

but the total time office to push back is still half at LCY and the journey is a lot less stressful
A wise man speaks because has something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something - Plato
 
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adg737800
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RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Fri May 09, 2014 11:30 am

Quoting EnviableOne (Reply 27):
The Crossrail city-LHR improvement is not much, its about 70 minutes on the tube or 45 via tube and Heathrow express at the minute.

but the total time office to push back is still half at LCY and the journey is a lot less stressful

I think the Crossrail argument is largely over rated in this case. Crossrail is essentially going to replace the Heathrow Connect rail service and so won't serve T5 at LHR for one thing (serving Heathrow Central and then T4). Journey times to Heathrow Central will be 40 minutes from Canary Wharf, but by Tube and DLR it still only takes around 15 mins to LCY and you have the advantage of a short walk to the gate and minimal security queues. In effect you could be out of the office and at the gate at LCY in the time it takes to just reach Heathrow Central with Crossrail, and then you have the long walks to gates, security (although there's fast track for this market) etc etc at LHR too.

Factor that in and there's still a compelling argument for the BA service at LCY for the time sensitive financier.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4934
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: Odyssey - Non-stop Transatlantic From LCY

Fri May 09, 2014 12:25 pm

Quoting adg737800 (Reply 28):
Factor that in and there's still a compelling argument for the BA service at LCY for the time sensitive financier.

I agree there's a market, I am not sure it's compelling though and clearly not that big beyond the current niche as capacity has remained static.Crossrail will not be without impact as anyone wanting their money's worth from their ticket might prefer lounge and pre-dining from LHR whereas would have used LCY before due to the hassle of getting across town. That hassle is about to be simplified so I would be very surprised if nothing changes.

Having said that, it also makes it quicker to get to LCY from other parts of London if you don't mind getting off at Custom House and walking.

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