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runningonempty
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Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 7:01 pm

I don't know much about this airport, but I was looking at it on Google Maps, and I though, man, that would make a great NYC Airport. I know its an Historical site with the NPS, but what are the chances of having an active commercial airport on a Historical site? Maybe it's possible if they make it "green" and fit in with nature as well as keep the main terminal and historical buildings. They have Rwy 1-19 which at one point was 7,000ft and as I look at Google maps, there is room for the 7,000 ft runway to be paved back (after it was torn up). I mean it's an opportune place being right next to the belt pkwy (other than the fact it's right next to JFK). Who was some insight?


[Edited 2014-05-11 12:24:49]
 
canyonblue17
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Third NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 7:14 pm

I have often wondered why they never redeveloped this site into an alternate airport. It looks like there is more land there than LGA. Yes, it sits across the bay from JFK, but aren't there other large airports with smaller airports almost as close?
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canyonblue17
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Third NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 7:16 pm

By the way, NYC already has a third metro airport.....EWR. So really it would be the fourth.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
planemaker
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
Who was some insight?

See below...  


New York Harbour Parks
Floyd Bennett Field
A park on Jamaica Bay in Brooklyn

Once an important New York City airport, Floyd Bennett Field—part of Gateway National Recreation Area—is now dedicated to the celebration of aviation history, sports, and the great outdoors. A wonderful escape from the bustle of the urban life, it is unlike any other place in the city.


National Park Service
Floyd Bennett Field

Floyd Bennett Field was opened as New York City's first municipal airport on May 23, 1931. Throughout the 1930's, it was the site of many important first and record breaking flights, which helped to advance aviation technology during the "Golden Age of Aviation."



Exploring New York City’s Ghost Airport – A Trip To Floyd Bennet Field

Photograph taken in the 1930′s. The man in the picture? Howard Hughes.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
as739x
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 8:05 pm

There isn't much insight to have. I won't happen due to the proximity to JFK and airspace above which is one of the most congested in the world. There are a few options for the NYC area, but none in the general NY area. I am the last person to say I know a lot about the NYC area, but from what I have gathered there are options outside the Metro area like Stewart and Islip. To had another airport under the current airspace of JFK/EWR/LGA probably wouldn't make it past a conversation with the FAA.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
flyby519
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 8:49 pm

They need to start reducing the number of NYC airports instead of adding more! Bulldoze LGA and that will be a good start.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 5):
They need to start reducing the number of NYC airports instead of adding more! Bulldoze LGA and that will be a good start.

What on earth makes you think that would be a good idea?
 
LV
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 9:31 pm

As close as it is to JFK I would think there would be traffic conflicts constantly
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 9:48 pm

This subject has come up before.

In the late 70's or early 80's a study was done to link Floyd Bennett with JFK but there are federally protected marshlands and bird sanctuaries in there that precludes it from happening.

Maybe by now technology has progressed to the point where an environmentally safe solution could be found. It would be worth exploring.
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 10:13 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 6):

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 5):
They need to start reducing the number of NYC airports instead of adding more! Bulldoze LGA and that will be a good start.

What on earth makes you think that would be a good idea?

While I agree that reducing the number of NYC airports is next to impossible, bulldozing LGA and starting fresh wouldn't be too bad!  
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flyby519
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 6):

ATC constraints for starters. Without LGA the arrival/departure rates for JFK/EWR could increase, making them more efficient airports.

I am aware it is a pipe dream, but if think it would make sense.
 
airliner371
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 10:41 pm

Wow, another "fourth airport NYC" thread...    People, you can say how great it would be etc... it's simply not going to happen. It's just not going to. LGA, EWR and JFK are NYC's airports.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 10):
arrival/departure rates for JFK/EWR could increase,

As it is, JFK and EWR are too full flight wise anyway, adding more would do nothing but make it worse.

[Edited 2014-05-11 15:42:11]
 
runningonempty
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 3):

Thanks for that!

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 11):

Wow, another "fourth airport NYC" thread...    People, you can say how great it would be etc... it's simply not going to happen. It's just not going to. LGA, EWR and JFK are NYC's airports.

It's been quite some time since a thread on Floyd Bennett Field, I felt it was appropriate to reenter the discussion... And whose to say that Floyd Bennett won't ever become an airport again? FBF has a nice ring to it....   There is much to overcome with the building of any new infrastructure. It's not possible to prove or disprove something that hasn't happened.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 9):
While I agree that reducing the number of NYC airports is next to impossible, bulldozing LGA and starting fresh wouldn't be too bad!  

Wouldn't make too much sense either. Unless they can build another runway, they are already at capacity, why not just redo the concourses (however impossible it is) rather than demolish all the infrastructure already there just to build the same amount of gates for the same amount of passengers (pretty much).

Quoting LV (Reply 7):
As close as it is to JFK I would think there would be traffic conflicts constantly

I know, and was really pondering what to do about that. I think if FBF (I'll abbreviate now) were to work, it would need to be essentially one runway and maybe another for backup overflow. Notice how both JFK and LGA have parallel runways? This way they won't cross each other's flight path. If FBF started fresh (Which is not hard to do since there isn't much there anyway), they could build a runway 4/22 and use it primarily. It would not interfere because they would essentially follow the same flight path of JFK. Now with one runway, I don't think it would be a really big airport, but maybe 200-250 at most flights a day wouldn't be too hard with one runway, I mean just look at Gatwick... If someone knows more about LGA/JFK flight patterns and can chime in, that would help my little knowledge.

i just think it would be interesting to see if a private entity can do something to revitalize FBF, because PANYNJ have no interest whatsoever. I know its historical property, but I think in the name of infrastructure, they may succumb if other needs of the area are met (better upkeep, a private entity to manage areas that aren't built on)... A private corporation could really prove to take better care of it than the NPS. IMHO a private company can try to convince the FAA and NYC area that it can be a carbon-neutral airport. Solar panels, low-flow toilets, trees in the airport, natural. Also they can also leave the current terminal alone and possibly restore it, make it a museum, and all the while have an airport that can make some green.

[Edited 2014-05-11 16:12:05]
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 8):

Always a great idea to have a federally protected bird sanctuary by a major international airport.
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737tdi
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 11:13 pm

Zoom out with that map and you would see just how close JFK and LGA are. It would be impossible. No way they could control all of that and the New Jersey airports as well.. JMO.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 12):
Wouldn't make too much sense either. Unless they can build another runway, they are already at capacity, why not just redo the concourses (however impossible it is) rather than demolish all the infrastructure already there just to build the same amount of gates for the same amount of passengers (pretty much).

Don't worry, it was just a joke  
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CIDFlyer
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 1):
I have often wondered why they never redeveloped this site into an alternate airport. It looks like there is more land there than LGA. Yes, it sits across the bay from JFK, but aren't there other large airports with smaller airports almost as close?

off the top of my head TPA & PIE are pretty much separated by Tampa Bay
 
runningonempty
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 11, 2014 11:52 pm

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 16):
off the top of my head TPA & PIE are pretty much separated by Tampa Bay

Thanks to google earth, I did some computations, here we go:

Distance between beginning of JFK runway 4L and FBF's furthest point: 6.5 miles

Distance b/w PIE and TPA most parallel runway: 9.5 miles

RWY 1/19 @ FBF length: 7,000 ft

Traffic patterns would be impossible with nonparallel runways at airports 6 miles apart, so:

The longest a rwy 4 could be without hitting flatbush ave, the historic terminal/hangers, or going on water: 7,000, 6,800 realistically.

So, judging by SNA's success, runway length shouldn't be a problem. Also, I think that most of the "wildlife" (pigeons, etc.) and grasslands are closer to the Belt pkwy. And I hate to be this way, but I'm sure JFK was a wildlife sanctuary at one point too. I also think that building buildings and such today is far less intrusive than it used to be. It can be done peacefully and I honestly think that there is enough space that they could plan an underground garage, a small and efficient terminal, and a small fuel farm and FBO's without using too much of the environmental space.
 
Trucker
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 12:58 am

So why do they leave the runways there rather than tearing them out?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting Trucker (Reply 18):
So why do they leave the runways there rather than tearing them out?

IIRC, the NYPD aviation assets operate out of Floyd Bennett. Plus, in the past, airships have used it for a base for operations within the city.

-DiamondFlyer
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runningonempty
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting Trucker (Reply 18):

Beats me. Sometimes they have R/C guys go and fly around, as well as some "wind buggies"? They also have used the runways once (I think in 09 and 11) to have an old plane in one of the hangers takeoff. Otherwise, why they leave the runways in a "natural habitat" is beyond me. NYPD only really uses the helipads.

This is what 20 minutes of boredom does. Note the size of the hanger next to the word "terminal". That building is pretty big. The terminal is a good size. This drawing is equipped with a 6,000 ft runway 4. Much of the northern section is undisturbed. It's mostly the "field" part that the terminal is built on. The terminal would be open-air, similar to PSP (IIRC). There are connections to flatbush and the belt. I personally think that this is a pretty good crude drawing, not to toot my own horn.



[Edited 2014-05-11 18:16:01]
 
visakow
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:26 am

The impression I'm getting is that your all thinking about is a balls to the wall approach to develop FBF. What if it were developed as a commuter facility like London City or limited service to BLI or even PAE. I'm just say saying. Food for thought!
 
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777Jet
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:31 am

Don't forget about this piece of land - 'Teterboro Airport'...  
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N62NA
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 11):
Wow, another "fourth airport NYC" thread..

If you don't like it, don't read it. Don't disparage the person who created the topic.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 12):
It's been quite some time since a thread on Floyd Bennett Field, I felt it was appropriate to reenter the discussion...

Exactly.

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 10):
ATC constraints for starters. Without LGA the arrival/departure rates for JFK/EWR could increase, making them more efficient airports.

I am aware it is a pipe dream, but if think it would make sense.

Yep, it would make quite a bit of sense. But these days, there isn't the political will to do "big things" that would have benefits for 100 years or more into the future.
 
sccutler
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:18 am

A good friend of mine actually landed at and departed from Floyd Bennett Field; part of a historic shindig of some sort.

http://friendshipflight.com/l11.htm

[Edited 2014-05-11 19:28:10]
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
planemaker
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting LV (Reply 7):
As close as it is to JFK I would think there would be traffic conflicts constantly
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 10):
ATC constraints for starters. Without LGA the arrival/departure rates for JFK/EWR could increase, making them more efficient airports.
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 14):
It would be impossible. No way they could control all of that and the New Jersey airports as well.. JMO.

ATC could manage "the" traffic by ~2020... Performance Base Navigation (PBN)
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
runningonempty
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:55 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 22):
Don't forget about this piece of land - 'Teterboro Airport'...  

That's a NIMBY Land; so that's the end of that.  
Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
Yep, it would make quite a bit of sense. But these days, there isn't the political will to do "big things" that would have benefits for 100 years or more into the future.

I don't really understand how getting rid of an airport with hundreds of flights a day will be able to be replaced by an airport like JFK because of a more open flight path. Think of gate space, where can you go at JFK? You may be able to add a satellite concourse, but nothing to accommodate the 27 million passengers you're displacing. You would need a super airport, which NYC doesn't readily have space for. IMHO, LGA serves its' purpose for now. Later down the road, things may need to change....

But, I do agree that political will to advance NYC's infrastructure is just short of Mongolia's political will to advance infrastructure (neither care). Mark my words, 50 years from now, FBF will be a commercial airport, or a mall (poor Roosevelt field).

Quoting visakow (Reply 21):

The impression I'm getting is that your all thinking about is a balls to the wall approach to develop FBF. What if it were developed as a commuter facility like London City or limited service to BLI or even PAE. I'm just say saying. Food for thought!

It has to be a heavy use airport from the start, otherwise the FAA will laugh it off. FAA: "Yeah, let's open an airport 6 miles from JFK so we operate 50 flights a day." Sorry if it comes off as rude, but that's the FAA for ya.  
 
opethfan
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting visakow (Reply 21):
The impression I'm getting is that your all thinking about is a balls to the wall approach to develop FBF. What if it were developed as a commuter facility like London City or limited service to BLI or even PAE. I'm just say saying. Food for thought!

Limited service TO BLI or PAE? I don't much see the point, considering BLI is essentially just a secondary (low-cost) airport for Vancouver (plus regional service for local residents) and PAE has no scheduled service. BFI would make much more sense, but there still isn't a demand when both SEA and YVR have service to EWR and JFK.

G4 aren't likely to be willing to pay the substantial costs for construction of a facility, either, so I'm not sure what to make of your suggestion.
 
KingFriday013
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 3:09 am

Too close to JFK; I don't think it would ever work. Not to mention it's not in good shape.

I learned to drive on the runways at Floyd Bennett Field  

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runningonempty
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 3:20 am

Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 28):
Too close to JFK; I don't think it would ever work. Not to mention it's not in good shape.

I learned to drive on the runways at Floyd Bennett Field  

Well, there is newer ATC technology coming out in 2020 and that is supposed to be able to handle airports close like JFK and FBF. And that's funny.

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 27):
G4 aren't likely to be willing to pay the substantial costs for construction of a facility, either, so I'm not sure what to make of your suggestion.

G4? Lol. The dilemma faced in NYC is unlike anywhere else. NYer's don't want expansion (especially) of airports. But they don't realize that one day there's not going to be enough space. Oh yeah, and they don't ever drive to SWF or ISP. What do they do 20 years from now when there won't be any seats on a plane left? FBF is a viable alternative but it's a nightmare to work with residents. They'll tackle you down if you suggest to move the community garden, they seriously LOST IT when Paul Newman wanted to build a race track. If you fly straight into a rwy at 40º at FBF (a currently fictional runway 4), the only people who have reason to complain about noise are the people on Breezy point, and they already get all the JFK traffic. No other towns would be in final approach "zone" with FBF. This is going to alleviate traffic at JFK, or at least keep up with the population. I did a rough sketch before and that was not even intruding on the protected forest areas. And seriously, what bird's that can survive in Brooklyn are all that rare. Enough is enough. It's a National Park, but it's not an "untouched" wonder. It's an ex-airport.
 
rampart
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 6:39 am

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 13):
Always a great idea to have a federally protected bird sanctuary by a major international airport.

Other way around. It was somebody's great idea to build an airport in or near prime bird habitat, protected or otherwise. But, back then, coastal marsh was "wasteland", and "good" for building airports. EWR. BOS. SFO. OAK. SAN. PHL. DCA. etc.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 17):
And I hate to be this way, but I'm sure JFK was a wildlife sanctuary at one point too. I also think that building buildings and such today is far less intrusive than it used to be. It can be done peacefully and I honestly think that there is enough space that they could plan an underground garage, a small and efficient terminal, and a small fuel farm and FBO's without using too much of the environmental space.

I don't think it was, I think the wildlife sanctuary was established as a city refuge in 1951, while it became federal in 1972. Idlewild Airport was built in the late 40s. The refuge was set up in response to the loss of habitat taken by the new airport. In any case, you are right that the birds preceded the airplanes. The many problems mount up. I'm not sure what peaceful construction is, but any disruption impacts wildlife. An underground garage needs to deal with near-surface groundwater (not to mention coastal flooding). Fuel farms need to have spill contingencies (which would be dire if they did happen). Small footprint -- not worth the costs involved. The environmental protection laws -- and I agree with them -- are incredibly stringent, and probably insurmountable. "Jamaica Bay Park supplements the Gateway National Urban Recreation Area by providing continuous, undisturbed wetland sanctuary for waterfowl and wildlife."

Quoting Trucker (Reply 18):
So why do they leave the runways there rather than tearing them out?

I understood that R/C clubs continued to use the runways.

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):

Yep, it would make quite a bit of sense. But these days, there isn't the political will to do "big things" that would have benefits for 100 years or more into the future.

Planning a coastal airport for 100 years, or even 20 years, into the future is going to need some substantial flood and sea level protection.

-Rampart
 
rampart
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 6:54 am

As long as we're talking pipe dreams, I do have a concept for a LCY-style 1-runway airport for the Chelsea Piers-Hudson Docks area, with the ramp and terminal occupying the railyards and convention center.  

-Rampart
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 12:16 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 31):
As long as we're talking pipe dreams, I do have a concept for a LCY-style 1-runway airport for the Chelsea Piers-Hudson Docks area, with the ramp and terminal occupying the railyards and convention center.

Now here is a subject worth taking seriously. Build a runway parallel to the East River near the helicopter pad and use it like LCY--THAT might be viable but you would most definitely have some NIMBY issues as well as potential ATC conflicts. Neither would be easily remedied.

For the writer that wanted to bulldoze LGA--that's not going to happen. I don't think many New Yorkers would mind seeing Riker's Island Prison being moved out and the airport extended onto that land but that would be a serious amount of money.
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Moose135
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:49 pm

Quoting Trucker (Reply 18):
So why do they leave the runways there rather than tearing them out?

No reason to spend the money to tear them up.

They did have a Fly-In of warbirds and some locally based helicopters in 2007. I believe they planned to have additional shows, but they never materialized. At the time, USCG based helicopters at FBF, but they have since moved.

http://www.moose135photography.com/Airplanes/Air-Shows/Floyd-Bennett-Field-Fly-In/i-FMv5L76/2/L/JM_2007_09_08_HH-65C_6517_001-L.jpg

NYPD Aviation Unit is still based at FBF.

http://www.moose135photography.com/photos/i-NMWGVFb/0/O/i-NMWGVFb.jpg

The Historic Aircraft Restoration Project (HARP) is based in one of the old hangars at FBF. The Berlin Airlift memorial C-54 uses the HARP hangar for winter maintenance, although they may be moving their operations. They would fly the C-54 into FBF in December, and back out in March. The need to coordinate with JFK tower when they fly in or out of FBF.

http://www.moose135photography.com/Airplanes/Berlin-Airlift-C-54/i-jrqkX92/0/L/JM_2010_12_21_BAHF_N500EJ_008-L.jpg

http://www.moose135photography.com/Airplanes/Berlin-Airlift-C-54/i-VChzPGL/0/L/JM_2011_03_11_BAHF_N500EJ_017-L.jpg

The Berlin group also have a C-97, which was flown into FBF about 10 years ago. It is undergoing restoration, and the owner tells me he hopes to fly it out this summer.

http://www.moose135photography.com/Airplanes/Air-Museums/Floyd-Bennett-Field-HARP/i-KrXnKCP/0/L/JM_2010_08_21_HARP_C-97_001-L.jpg

Given environmental, air space, and financial considerations, I don't see FBF becoming an active airfield again in the future.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 33):

They did have a Fly-In of warbirds and some locally based helicopters in 2007. I believe they planned to have additional shows, but they never materialized. At the time, USCG based helicopters at FBF, but they have since moved.

It does this old Brooklyn boy's heart proud to see what FBF is being used for today. The photographs are incredible! I can't wait to see a C-97 fly out of there. Please keep us updated and thank you for posting.
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slider
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:22 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 4):
I won't happen due to the proximity to JFK and airspace above which is one of the most congested in the world.
Quoting KingFriday013 (Reply 28):
Too close to JFK;

Both of these comments are spot on.

You fly over Bennett Field on approach for landing on the runway 4s sometimes. They're only about 10 miles apart and it's not even doable to contemplate.
 
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STT757
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:25 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 11):
As it is, JFK and EWR are too full flight wise anyway, adding more would do nothing but make it worse.

You don't need more flights, you need bigger planes domestically. You can increase capacity dramatically to make up for the loss of LGA by replacing 50, 70 or 100 seat RJs with A319s, A320s, 73Gs, 738s etc..

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):
I don't know much about this airport, but I was looking at it on Google Maps, and I though, man, that would make a great NYC Airport.

It would be horirble, what Highway or Interstate go there. None. You have the Belt Parkway which does not need any more vehicles as it can't handle the ones that treverse it now.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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Moose135
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
You have the Belt Parkway which does not need any more vehicles as it can't handle the ones that treverse it now.

And as a parkway, no trucks are permitted. That means all truck traffic would need to go on surface streets in Brooklyn...that should be fun trying to make that happen. It's not just a matter of changing the law to allow trucks - things like lane width, underpass clearances, and load capacity would all be a factor.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
planenut767
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 4:36 pm

Unfortunately I don't think it would be a good airport for scheduled air carrier service. Given the close proximity of the other airports in the area and restricted infrastructure (think what Moose said about no trucks on the belt) I can't see it happening. What I can see happening is a General Aviation or a Corporate type airport like what you have at Teterboro and Westchester. Make it Class D airspace within the Class B like those other airports and you can have a viable airport. Since it's now NPS land and given New Yorkers propensity for complaining when any kind of airport improvement work gets done, I don't see that happening either.
 
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STT757
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 37):
And as a parkway, no trucks are permitted.

You know how many times I hear, "A truck is backing off the Belt Parkway" because they go on and then they realize the overpasses on the Belt Parkway are too low for trucks to pass.

The idea of Floyd Bennett looks intriguing until you look at things other than the fact that there used to be a runway there, then it's quite clear why nothing ever became of the place other than a recreation area.

If more capacity is required, replace all those 50, 75 seat regional jets with mainline aircraft that seat three times that to places like Raleigh.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
idlewild
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 6:14 pm

You'd be better off making the Rockaways into runways/JFK extensions than redeveloping Floyd Bennett back to airport status. The same problems that made AA switch to EWR back in the '30s would rear it's ugly head again: i.e. there's just no frigging way to get there in a timely fashion. The Belt E. is constatnly backed up between the Narrows Bridge and Sheepshead Bay. Belt W. is bumper-to-bumper between Pennsylvania Avenue (sometimes JFK itself) and Coney Island. Flatbush Avenue between the Manhattan Bridge and The Junction is an insane asylum. Most importantly, there is no mass transit - except for the bus that STARTS at Kings Plaza and heads to the Rockaways. Not even a ferry. It takes me close to 45 minutes to drive there on a good day. Which is ironic because I live closer to Floyd Bennett than JFK and it only takes me 20 to 30 minutes to get to JFK. Then there would be the noise abatement procedures and the developers considerations. High rises seem to be the trend all over Brooklyn. I imagine some developer will get the idea that a high-rise that can give views of Jamaica Bay/the Atlantic and Manhattan may be able to sell.

I think the NY/NJPA may have a better chance of buying (eminent domain) the surrounding area of and including the Inwood Country Club, then fill in Head of Bay, and converting that into tarmac and or cargo space.

PS Also, what Moose135 states about commercial traffic not being allowed on the Belt.
 
twal1011727
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 7:41 pm

Have y'all read the news about global warming?

With the rise in temps expected within the next 100 years, all the coastal airports are going to under water anyway.

KD
 
flyby519
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 25):
ATC could manage "the" traffic by ~2020... Performance Base Navigation (PBN)
Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 29):
Well, there is newer ATC technology coming out in 2020 and that is supposed to be able to handle airports close like JFK and FBF. And that's funny.

If you guys believe the ATC system will be revamped by 2020 then I've got a bridge to sell you. We've been hearing about NextGen ATC for decades now.
 
runningonempty
Topic Author
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 8:48 pm

A lot of negativity here, let me clear things up:

Quoting rampart (Reply 30):
I don't think it was, I think the wildlife sanctuary was established as a city refuge in 1951, while it became federal in 1972. Idlewild Airport was built in the late 40s. The refuge was set up in response to the loss of habitat taken by the new airport. In any case, you are right that the birds preceded the airplanes. The many problems mount up. I'm not sure what peaceful construction is, but any disruption impacts wildlife. An underground garage needs to deal with near-surface groundwater (not to mention coastal flooding). Fuel farms need to have spill contingencies (which would be dire if they did happen). Small footprint -- not worth the costs involved. The environmental protection laws -- and I agree with them -- are incredibly stringent, and probably insurmountable. "Jamaica Bay Park supplements the Gateway National Urban Recreation Area by providing continuous, undisturbed wetland sanctuary for waterfowl and wildlife."

Floyd Bennett field, the National Park anyways, is only the "field" part, all the hiking trails (where most birds reside) are not really NPS property. The field today is a garbage field basically, a heap of trash for cars and parts of homes that were lost during Sandy. If a group could say that they could build an airport, and actually use the field for what it was always built for, while maintaining a "natural" environment around the field (plus a enviro. friendly terminal, solar parking lot, etc... then there really is something worthwhile at Floyd Bennett. Jamaica Bay has many island and other protected areas, so the overgrown grass field with pavement runways with beat up cars and trash is not an area I see as the best preserved area. IMHO an airport is a better use of the space than what it currently is, plus it would remain mostly the same in the "forest" areas.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 36):
It would be horirble, what Highway or Interstate go there. None. You have the Belt Parkway which does not need any more vehicles as it can't handle the ones that treverse it now.

Aren't they "fixing" the Belt, expanding it? They've been doing it for like 20 years now, shouldn't they be done soon? And also LGA is just surrounded by the Grand Central Pkwy, and they seem to be doing alright. I know LGA is closer to an expressway but it's not that big a deal...

Quoting moose135 (Reply 33):

Awesome! Loved seeing the pics!

This is what I was thinking of, the new LGB type design. It really doesn't even need jetways to be successful. Maybe like an LGB terminal/BUR tarmac on steroids. It's a serious consideration if the FAA gets that new ATC technology. Another approach would be to have FBF be like LGA's Marine terminal, except a different airport. Ferry passengers to FBF from JFK and face the terminal right next to the water. It could have a really small footprint.
 
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rmoore7734
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 9:05 pm

The answer is proposed jetport in NJ Pine Barrens   

"At the time John McPhee published The Pine Barrens in 1968, people were considering building a large interstate through this natural area, complete with a supersonic jetport and a city of 250,000 people. The jetport alone would have been massive in scale. McPhee described the proposed airport as “the largest airport on earth – four times as large as Newark Airport, LaGuardia, and Kennedy put together.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=rN7...planning%20board%20jetport&f=false

Make it big enough to close all NYC commercial airports, ACY & PHL plus construct highspeed rail links to it from the big metros.

That'l clear the airspace   

[Edited 2014-05-12 14:07:41]
 
prosa
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 12, 2014 9:10 pm

Quoting idlewild (Reply 40):
Most importantly, there is no mass transit - except for the bus that STARTS at Kings Plaza and heads to the Rockaways. Not even a ferry.

Of course LGA has no mass transit either, but that airport's been around for many decades. Building a new transit-less airport in New York simply isn't going to happen. It's over four miles from FBF to the nearest subway stop, the 2 train's terminal on Flatbush Avenue, which itself is a long ride from Manhattan. LGA is less isolated.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
spacecadet
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Tue May 13, 2014 2:06 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 43):
Aren't they "fixing" the Belt, expanding it? They've been doing it for like 20 years now, shouldn't they be done soon?

I drive the Belt Parkway in that area about once a month - they seem no closer to being "done" than they ever have been.

Anyway I'm not even sure what they're doing. Adding another lane? It doesn't seem like it's going to accomplish much. It doesn't really seem like a major roadway upgrade, despite how long it's taking. It's a very LONG upgrade, but it seems relatively minor. Almost like they're just repaving it.

It's also still going to be a Parkway. LGA is not really comparable because LGA is also more or less adjacent to the BQE, which then connects to the LIE. Trucks and buses can just take that route. There's really no good highway route for trucks or buses from Floyd Bennett Field.

There are too many reasons why Floyd Bennett is not a viable airport... which is why it was closed.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
runningonempty
Topic Author
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Tue May 13, 2014 3:19 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 46):
It's also still going to be a Parkway. LGA is not really comparable because LGA is also more or less adjacent to the BQE, which then connects to the LIE. Trucks and buses can just take that route. There's really no good highway route for trucks or buses from Floyd Bennett Field.

There are too many reasons why Floyd Bennett is not a viable airport... which is why it was closed.

Yes, but an airport doesn't always need to have a Highway next to it to work.

FBF was not a viable airport for its time, but today it brings great value... FBF's main reason for closure was the building of LGA. If LGA was not available to use, FBF could've been the LGA that LGA is today. Plus, to those who say the runways are too close, it was fine in the 50's when JFK, LGA, and FBF (mostly GA) were running simultaneously. I know that the airspaces today are a lot more congested, but ay, the airports were still 5 miles apart then too. With JFK and LGA at capacity, FBF is a viable airport because it was viable when LGA never existed. Since we have LGA and JFk and no space left, FBF is an excellent alternative.
 
N1120A
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Tue May 13, 2014 5:43 am

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Thread starter):

That giant taxiway to JFK would be a sight, but its an awful environmental nightmare waiting to happen. Otherwise, its just too close.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 6):
What on earth makes you think that would be a good idea?

Because it is the best idea. EWR could add close to 30 million pax, basically overnight, and JFK could do about 90 million total. WAY more than enough to absorb LGA and grow.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 11):
As it is, JFK and EWR are too full flight wise anyway, adding more would do nothing but make it worse.

Absolutely untrue. EWR is 100% constrained based on its airspace capacity, which is almost 100% due to interference from LGA. There is plenty of gate space there, and still could add some. JFK isn't close to full. Even after B6, you can still practically bowl down the runways of that place at certain times.

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 26):
I don't really understand how getting rid of an airport with hundreds of flights a day will be able to be replaced by an airport like JFK because of a more open flight path.

Its really pretty easy. Imagine being able to approach straight over Queens, instead of taking that ridiculous approach that takes forever now?

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 26):
Think of gate space, where can you go at JFK? You may be able to add a satellite concourse, but nothing to accommodate the 27 million passengers you're displacing.

JFK could easily ramp up, as could EWR. LGA exists for no other purpose than irrational nostalgia, subsidization of taxi companies and a short-sighted view of what the place is.

Really? What about the T6 space? Worldport that was just demolished? Full build of T8? Rebuild of T7, along with more aggressive utilization of the UA side?

Let me put it this way, JFK has over 1000 acres more space than LAX, which was set to handle over 90 million PAX a year under the preferred build model back before the consent decree. It has 1 large (T6) and 1 medium sized (Worldport) terminal space doing absolutely nothing. It has a terminal that is half as large as it could be (T8).
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mir
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Tue May 13, 2014 7:51 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 48):
EWR could add close to 30 million pax, basically overnight

Not without more runways they couldn't. Runway capacity, not airspace capacity, is the main constraint at EWR. If you want to tell me that the airspace prevents building another runway that's a valid point, but that's not an overnight change, and there's also the issue of land space that would present a large obstacle to getting that done.

-Mir
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