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spacecadet
Posts: 3582
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 3:36 am

RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Tue May 13, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 47):
FBF was not a viable airport for its time, but today it brings great value... FBF's main reason for closure was the building of LGA. If LGA was not available to use, FBF could've been the LGA that LGA is today.

Well, but I'm not sure what your point actually is. LGA *is* available for use, and all the building that would have been required to make FBF viable today happened at LGA instead. That infrastructure now all exists at LGA. It's not going to be rebuilt at FBF.

Moreover, only a decade or so after its closure as a civilian airport, IDL opened basically next door. If you're wondering what FBF *could* have been, JFK is the answer. Essentially JFK is FBF rebuilt from a clean slate, and with good highway access. (The Van Wyck Expressway is directly accessible to trucks and buses.)

If FBF had just been torn down when it was closed, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I guess it's tantalizing having this extra set of runways just sitting there, but forget about them. FBF's not a real airport. It's had zero development since really the 1930's, but certainly the 1970's. And JFK fulfills the function FBF could have fulfilled if it had been developed instead over the years.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
JFKL1011
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 2:46 am

I can say though that Floyd played huge role in the recovery operations after Superstorm Sandy. The entire field became the hub of Red Cross and National Guard ops and given its proximity to JFK supplies were easily transferred between the two points. There is not much open space in the boroughs of NYC so Floyd was a godsend considering the massive amount of destruction that occurred in the Rockaway peninsula.
So many places to fly and increasingly so few interesting aircraft to get there on.
 
runningonempty
Topic Author
Posts: 272
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 50):
Well, but I'm not sure what your point actually is. LGA *is* available for use, and all the building that would have been required to make FBF viable today happened at LGA instead. That infrastructure now all exists at LGA. It's not going to be rebuilt at FBF.

Moreover, only a decade or so after its closure as a civilian airport, IDL opened basically next door. If you're wondering what FBF *could* have been, JFK is the answer. Essentially JFK is FBF rebuilt from a clean slate, and with good highway access. (The Van Wyck Expressway is directly accessible to trucks and buses.)

If FBF had just been torn down when it was closed, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. I guess it's tantalizing having this extra set of runways just sitting there, but forget about them. FBF's not a real airport. It's had zero development since really the 1930's, but certainly the 1970's. And JFK fulfills the function FBF could have fulfilled if it had been developed instead over the years.

Sorry, I worded that atrociously. I meant to say if LGA was never developed, it may have just been FBF and JFK. I know you think they are too close, but they would have had separate flight paths like LGA and JFK do. I don't think the location is all that much of a detriment. I seriously think it could be a Burbank/Long Beach sort of airport, even today. And I would have to agree if today it was just a forest, then I might pass over it, but the fact is it's a shady place (at night) that needs redevelopment, and it's a large area that just so happened to used to be an airport. It has lots of potential in the NYC area where every square foot counts. I'm not say FBF would've been a LGA, but it can be a great relief airport for the congested airports.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 48):
Its really pretty easy. Imagine being able to approach straight over Queens, instead of taking that ridiculous approach that takes forever now?

Still, you can only have so many planes at once, and the times when you can bowl on the runways are not the important times of day. Plus, LGA helps to send air traffic over other peoples homes. Imagine all of LGA traffic going to JFK; now stop imagining; that's not happening.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 3:58 am

I also doubt FBF has enough 'run-off' or buffer spacing at the end of its runways to be allowed for new commercial service today.
One thing that has to be considered for JFK, LGA, EWR and even TEB and FBF, is the growing risks of rising sea levels as all are very close to tidal water. FBF may not be worth investing in.
Even before LGA, FBF had little or no scheduled commercial airline services, the only such services were at EWR.
 
prosa
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting JFKL1011 (Reply 51):
I can say though that Floyd played huge role in the recovery operations after Superstorm Sandy. The entire field became the hub of Red Cross and National Guard ops and given its proximity to JFK supplies were easily transferred between the two points.

FBF was actually one of two disused (or barely used) airports used in storm recovery. Fifty miles to the east the seldom-used runway at 3C8 was used to hold thousands of storm-destroyed motor vehicles while insurance claims were processed.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
N1120A
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 49):
Not without more runways they couldn't. Runway capacity, not airspace capacity, is the main constraint at EWR.

EWR's throughput is significantly hampered by airspace capacity, particularly because of the constraints on approach and departure. Another runway could, indeed, be added as well, but EWR and JFK could absorb LGA overnight and still have some room
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czek6
Posts: 182
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 4:32 pm

It's funny how people remember Islip and Stewart, but forget about lil ol' White Plains.

I find it strange that White Plains never developed into something larger or that the transit connections to NYC are not better.

I find it odder still that there isn't an airport for the Stamford, CT region. It must really hurt their economy having to go to New York to take a flight.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Wed May 14, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting czek6 (Reply 56):
I find it strange that White Plains never developed into something larger or that the transit connections to NYC are not better.

HPN is as large as the surrounding communities want it to be. There are significant issues with noise abatement, night curfews, and local resistance to expanding the facilities.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
runningonempty
Topic Author
Posts: 272
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Sun May 18, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting moose135 (Reply 57):
HPN is as large as the surrounding communities want it to be. There are significant issues with noise abatement, night curfews, and local resistance to expanding the facilities.

Yeah, HPN is in a ritzy sort-of area, and the county really isn't into it's expansion. I think just expanding the terminal with the same other restrictions would be great for them, though. The slots thing really is a detriment to all parties at the airport.


Back to FBF:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 53):
I also doubt FBF has enough 'run-off' or buffer spacing at the end of its runways to be allowed for new commercial service today.

Eh, it can handle a 6000' foot runway with about 500' on each side, plus Flatbush from one end.
 
mark787
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 19, 2014 7:51 am

FBF is too close to JFK and it's airspace. as is, JFk traffic both inbound and outbound frequently fly over the air field and at rather low altitudes. Then add in the airspace traffic from nearby LGA and EWR and you begin to see how this won't work. Anyone who lives in the NYC metro area knows that neither SWF or ACY can be a realistic alternative for those of us living on Long Island which includes Queens and Brooklyn. ISP as mentioned on another post is an alternative, but now you trek into the fabulous world of NIMBYism. ISP has an almost zero chance of having any reasonable expansions in it's future for that very reason. Forget Westchester because there is even more money there. SWF is at least a 2 hr drive from say Queens or Brooklyn, and I would know because I was by there yesterday.

Someone posted something like this a while back, but what the NYC area truly needs is a HKG style man made island off the coast of the Narrows. Far fetched it may sound, but if folks in the US were to be as revolutionary in their thinking like we once were, we would have built something like this before KIX and HKG would have. I will add more to this. There has been talk for sometime about building a massive gates similar to what they have in the Netherlands, to be able to close when an approaching storm like Sandy comes our way, that would then prevent flooding in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Hoboken, etc...Imagine a man made island at the mouth of the bay with an inlet narrowed down on both sides with locks to prevent tides from coming into NY harbour, and then imagine a highway crossing the island connecting Long Island, Queens and Brooklyn with area of NJ such as Morristown, Red Bank, etc..? Add in a rail connection as well. all ideas similar to what has been proposed in London recently as an alternative to expanding Heathrow. You would still have to close one of the NYC airports to have this but it's an idea that needs to be looked at down the road if NYC is to ever escape from it's delayed prone tendencies at both airports! Floyd Bennett will never be an option because of it's proximities to JFK. Heck, I would say that you might see the 2 airports joined before we see it the airfield back in commercial use.

One side note. I love animals and nature, and I'm all for the protection of wild life. but I would say that a this point, after recent events in the area, having a bird sanctuary within close proximities is not the smartest of things to do. That said, if anyone can tell me that they can clearly see the abundance of wildlife at the north end of JFK's R22L and 22R in that junk filled swamp, then you have been sitting out in the sun for too long and inhaling that clean fresh air called fumes.
 
prosa
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Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 19, 2014 2:15 pm

Mark 787:
That's a very bold idea, and might work in some cities, but New York's quite a different matter. You're talking about a city that's been trying to build a desperately needed subway on Second Avenue since the 1920's without success.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
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varsity
Posts: 449
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RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Mon May 19, 2014 4:07 pm

What do you all think of SWF's chances of becoming that 4th airport, possibly managed by someone other than the PANYNJ? It has the room, is within manageable distance from I-84 and 87, and it could be connected to (albeit not great) train service to the city. Thus far, carrier interest has been lackluster at best and I know there is environmental and other resistance to much expansion, but -- given all the logistical challenges in other existing or proposed locations -- I still see it as one of the most viable.

EDIT: I did spend some time reading threads from last year and understand people's positions on why it hasn't happened yet, but, if capacity growth is inevitable, it has to take off and land somewhere. I personally think the best answer is to tell the carriers at slot-controlled airports to use bigger planes, but if we're assuming there WILL be a fourth major airport for the market in the next 20-50 years to me SWF is the most logical candidate.

[Edited 2014-05-19 09:35:49]
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mark787
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

RE: Floyd Bennett Field- The Fourth NYC Metro Airport?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:03 am

Quoting prosa (Reply 60):

Thank you. it's an idea that I know will not happen in my life time or my kids life time, but at some point they need to open their minds and explore this idea. who knows, with climate change, such an idea might either be essential for NYC survival or not be relevant at all. 2nd ave subway? I got one even better than that: the LIRR east side access project. once slated for 2008, every year they tack on more years to the project. I think we are now at 2020 or 2021. but everything in NY gets built at less than a snails pace.

Quoting varsity (Reply 61):

From what I understand, this is why the PA brought in SWF under it's wing. I remember reading an article from one of the NY papers that their plans are to make SWF into NY's 4th airport, or at the very least a reliever for the other 3 airports. Realistically, SWF is quite far from several parts of the NYC area. Even folks living in the Bronx will still have to drive over 60 mins north just to get to SWF, and that's "IF" there is no traffic. That said, giving SWF access to rail service is not as difficult as one thinks considering that there are 2 different Metro-North lines within a few miles of the airport. the only thing needed is a connection to the airport and upgraded rail infrastructure. An opportunity was missed with the building of the new Tappan Zee bridge where a rail connection was proposed to connect from Metro North's Hudson Line to the RR's west of the Hudson branches and onto SWF.

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