AIR MALTA
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BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Thu May 15, 2014 1:54 pm

According to flyertalk.com, BA is adding 5 new destinations from LGW starting Summer 2015: Cagliari, Heraklion, Rhodes, Bodrum and Dalaman... The schedules as follows:

BA2616 LGW1300 | CAG1645 146 319 27Apr-
BA2617 CAG1730 | LGW1910 146 319 27Apr-

BA2552 LGW0720 | HER1315 2456 319 26Apr-
BA2553 HER1400 | LGW1605 2456 319 26Apr-

BA2556 LGW0720 | RHO1320 36 319 29Apr-
BA2557 RHO1405 | LGW1615 36 319 29Apr-

BA2566 LGW0720 | BJV1315 14 319 27Apr-
BA2567 BJV1400 | LGW1605 14 319 27Apr-

BA2562 LGW1410 | DLM2015 1346 32S 27Apr-
BA2563 DLM2100 | LGW2315 1346 32S 27Apr-

Great stuff. Hope this does not mean BA will cut some other services.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...ub/1577243-lgw-new-routes-s15.html
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vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Thu May 15, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Thread starter):
Hope this does not mean BA will cut some other services.

BA has been operating Summer Series Charters to some of these destinations from LHR for several seasons. The detail last summer was:

LHR-CAG-LHR. BA9214C/15C. Day 6. A320
LHR-CAG-LHR. BA9222C/23C. Day 6. A319

LHR-RHO-LHR. BA9230C/31C. Day 6. A321
LHR-RHO-LHR. BA9232C/33C. Day 7. A320

LKR-BJV-LHR. BA9234C/35C. Day 7. A320

Some of these flights are already operating in the current season. New flights added this year include:

LHR-DLM-LHR. BA9244C/45C. Day 6. A320

So I am guessing that at least some of these LHR Charter flights may be replaced by the new scheduled flights from LGW.
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
So I am guessing that at least some of these LHR Charter flights may be replaced by the new scheduled flights from LGW.

I don't really think that the week end charters will stop from Heathrow. But it is nice to see BA expanding from LGW although most of destinations were previously served either by BA or GT. The only real new route is the one to Bodrum.

Now the question is: is BA going to cancel some other routes to make room for these addtions or is it a real expansion?

There is one route I can see being made redundant which is the Barcelona one. I think BA should let Vueling opearte it and add its code to the flight. I would like to see more cooperation between BA and VY on the routes served also at LHR. It would also be nice to get some avios points on VY's operated flights.
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OA260
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 10:13 am

Great news for Greece and BA keeps adding to its portfolio there. CFU would be the next logical route for 2015. Shame to see LHR-AGA axed for this Winter though.
 
cornishsimon
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 11:28 am

My guess is expansion rather than drop something else.

BA have 10 second hand A320s to be delivered to LGW before next summer don't they ?


cs
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 12:03 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
So I am guessing that at least some of these LHR Charter flights may be replaced by the new scheduled flights from LGW.

Aren't the LHR charters tied specifically to one "upmarketish" holiday operator ? something in the back of my mind says Mark Warner holidays and usefully for BA utilise spare weekend capacity. If this is the case I doubt that the LHR flights will alter.
 
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OA260
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 5):
Aren't the LHR charters tied specifically to one "upmarketish" holiday operator ? something in the back of my mind says Mark Warner holidays

Yes and Neilson. Destinations include KLX KGS PVK etc...
 
vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 12:46 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 5):
Aren't the LHR charters tied specifically to one "upmarketish" holiday operator ? something in the back of my mind says Mark Warner holidays

Last summer most of the charter rotations from LHR were indeed operated for Mark Warner Holidays. They were to and from BIA, BJV, CAG , KGS, LXS and RHO (2). Three were also operated between LHR and CAG (2) and OLB for Sardatur.
 
Baexecutive
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Fri May 16, 2014 11:00 pm

Let's not forget the first non London route out of Scotland for many years starting soon - EDI - IBZ
 
by738
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Sat May 17, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 8):

Let's not forget the first non London route out of Scotland for many years starting soon - EDI - IBZ

...a less than full summer season with horrific times... mmm, not sure how that will do even with the Avios lot. They'll be horrified if the lounges aren't open and when the whole days delays catch up on the flight and weery crew. Nasty.
 
vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Sat May 17, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 9):
...a less than full summer season

The IATA Summer Timetable starts on the last Sunday in March. That is not most peoples' understanding of the beginning of summer. So that also explains why none of the new services listed by the TO for 2015 start before 26 April. That is exactly four weeks after the start of the IATA Summer Timetable. Yet it is still way before most will even consider taking their summer holidays.



Quoting by738 (Reply 9):
with horrific times...

Yes. But this is BA's effort to increase aircraft utilisation by using an A320 night stop at EDI for the EDI-IBZ-EDI rotation. To make it work economically they will have to make some pretty good offers. So I checked it out for a mid week return flight to IBZ from both EDI and LHR around mid-summer (21 June). From EDI the return was £142 for a three hour flight. From LHR it was 2.7 times more expensive at £382 for the shorter 2 hr 25 min flight.
 
rutankrd
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Sun May 18, 2014 8:08 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 9):

...a less than full summer season with horrific times... mmm, not sure how that will do even with the Avios lot. They'll be horrified if the lounges aren't open and when the whole days delays catch up on the flight and weery crew. Nasty.

Patronising tosh !

To all intents and purposes It a summer overnight charter to an island where for the last forty years the majority of arrivals from the UK have been at stupid o'clock !

When I was at college in the eighties went just about every July and never arrived at anything better than 2 AM !

Really you arrive in Ibiza airport crash out till two pm have bit of lunch and refresher, and ready yourself to party on!

For those wealthy city types they can actually do a full days work be home freshen up go to airport for 8-30 on thursday evening for a weekend out in the town return early Monday morning have a gallon of red bull and be at your desk "sort of ready" to work.

No I strongly disagree that the times are horrid for THIS market !

[Edited 2014-05-18 01:08:26]

BTW Ibiza actually has a rather short but intensive season compounded by Scottish school/college terms which are almost month earlier than the rest of the UK so the short programme is hardly a surprise.

The Scottish are back at school/college/work by the middle of August

Finally the concept is hardly new or original even to BA -They did these sorts of flights for decades before closing BAR !


[Edited 2014-05-18 01:23:43]
 
starrymarkb
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Sun May 18, 2014 10:01 am

Indeed, I remember going to Ibiza after my Exams from EXT with JK in late June 1999 - It was a W rotation Tenerife-EXT-IBZ-EXT-Tenerife so operated during the daytime. It was the only UK bound flight that afternoon from IBZ! Britannia, Flying Colors, Air2000 etc didn't start until about 22:00 - Also all the families in the resort were Scottish because of the school terms (England and Wales would still be at School until the end of July)

(Also was my only MD80s logged)

[Edited 2014-05-18 03:06:04]
 
richardw
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Sun May 18, 2014 7:22 pm

Some winter Lgw charters GNB and FDH are also going scheduled.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Sun May 18, 2014 8:10 pm

This is called the easyJet effect...

BA have been seeing how well easyJet can do on these routes, operating them as scheduled services as opposed to the traditional charter flights flown by the likes of Thomas Cook and Thomson and are trying to get a slice of the action!

Even though summer destinations like Greece and Turkey are becoming more popular with the LCC's (low cost carriers), they were relatively late to the show only been flown in the last five odd years. Where the LCC's have been flying to the likes of Spain for 15+ years, so there is still some capacity for BA to take advantage of.

Also these kind of flights are very popular with Executive Club members, and BA would rather them redeem their miles on these kind of flights, than the long haul flights where they would prefer to get a full paying passenger, with higher profit margins.

With BA in recent years reducing their overheads at LGW, they are now more set up to compete with the likes of easyJet, usually only been a few pounds more, and people seem to think they will get more in the way of service and qaulity by flying BA... There is still quite an army of travellers who refuse to cross the airbridge doors into an easyJet aircraft, and I would imagine this is exactly the kind of market BA are try and attract.
 
vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Mon May 19, 2014 10:04 am

This is all almost certainly part of the British Airways Holidays' strategy as announced on Slide 66 at the IAG Capital Markets Day last November:

http://edge.media-server.com/m/p/cfkmnebh/lan/en

Here it was revealed that according to CAA data BA Holidays was the 19th largest UK IT operator in 2011 when measured by numbers passengers carried. They had 175,000 customers.

The projection they showed for this year, 2014, was 468,000. This raised BA Holidays to a forecast number 8 on the UK list.

Note that the data above were presented only six weeks prior to the end of 2013. So BA already had their actual data for 2012, virtually all the data for 2013 (including bookings for the last six weeks of the year) and some input for 2014 from advanced bookings already made not just for winter 2013-14 ski holidays but for some summer holidays as well. So the figure of 468,000 most likely has a very solid foundation of actual and pre-booked holidaymakers. It is unlikely to be a pie-in-the-sky, hugely optimistic forecast.

The new route announcements to holiday-only destinations for 2015 seems to show that the rapid expansion BA Holidays are predicting for 2012-14 is set to continue into 2015.
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Mon May 19, 2014 10:31 am

All of this is quite exciting. If you browse the schedules for Summer 2015, you would also notice that BA is rescheduling all its route to have a harmonized timetable accross the system. All daily flights to all destinations are now to be operated at the same time everyday. This is in contrast with the actual scheduling that sees flights operated to the same destination being operated at different times making the timetable quite confusing.
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skipness1E
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Mon May 19, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 14):
Also these kind of flights are very popular with Executive Club members,

Redeeming AVIOS though I understand, not exactly forking out money for them.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 14):
usually only been a few pounds more

I find it vice versa actually, certainly on domestics which shows where the yield is going sadly.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 14):
BA have been seeing how well easyJet can do on these routes

These would be the same sun routes flown as BA by GB Airways that BA sold to.....easyJet!

Ooops better late than never.
However they didn't have the cost base in place to make money on it so a necessary decision at the time.
I really want them to make this work (somehow), just not excited by the seat pitch but as it's no worse than EZY I'd still use them for the AVIOS.
 
Baexecutive
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Mon May 19, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 9):

Lol at weery crew, it's two night flights so they will be night stopping in EDI!
 
GSTBA
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Mon May 19, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting baexecutive (Reply 18):
Lol at weery crew, it's two night flights so they will be night stopping in EDI!

EDI-IBZ will be operated by a mixed fleet crew. The crew will passenger up on the aircrafts inbound shuttle sector. They will then operate the IBZ. The crew will day stop in EDI and passenger back to LHR on the flight at about 5pm.
 
by738
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Tue May 20, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 19):

They'll be queuing up to request that run... ! Seems a lot of logistics for such a route.
 
AIR MALTA
Topic Author
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Tue May 20, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting by738 (Reply 20):
They'll be queuing up to request that run... ! Seems a lot of logistics for such a route.

I checked the prices for the route and it seems that it is not doing that well. Prices are very low for the whole period the flight is operating.
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vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Wed May 21, 2014 10:16 am

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 21):
checked the prices for the route and it seems that it is not doing that well. Prices are very low for the whole period the flight is operating.

I think it might be as well to wait until after this route is inaugurated. Condemning it as a failure before it actually starts on 23 May seems just a little premature. For example the level of fares before the launch of the route could be set to build up customer awareness. For this reason launch sales across the whole spectrum of commerce are far from unusual.

It also seems to me that if a legacy airline is to compete with the LCCs on a major holiday route with a red-eye flight, low fares will still be the order of the day once the route becomes established. BA would surely be aware of this. They must and have factored this into their calculations.

It is also worth remembering that BA's short-haul aircraft utilisation is far from high. Their current route structure simply does not allow for short-haul operations at the time that this rotation will operate. This service creates additional external costs - for example crew stop-over costs for 12 hours in Edinburgh (which I assume will be in a paid-for rest area, that is a hotel room). But there is also the cost benefit of, for example, the-difficult-for-us-to-measure higher equipment utilisation. Again BA will have done their math. And as the current prices on their system are pre-launch prices reading anything into them is more than difficult.

In summary if MOL can reduce prices significantly by doing things differently is there a fundamental reason why BA cannot at least have a shot at doing something similar? If they can then even looking at their fares on this rotation in a year's time may still not be that instructive.
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Wed May 21, 2014 11:10 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 22):
BA would surely be aware of this. They must and have factored this into their calculations.

You are giving BA waaaay too much credence here, the only market they're good at is London centric, and I don't really mean that as a crticism, it's an observation over wayyy too many years of dashed hopes in regional flying. There comes a time when you need to stick at what you do best, now it appears that someone has had an idea to try something new approved which is not a bad thing. However I do agree that in this market,a non London market, they will likely fail.
Again.
Yet again.
 
vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Wed May 21, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 23):
You are giving BA waaaay too much credence here, the only market they're good at is London centric


I do not think so. I will stick by what I said unless you can give me some other reason as to why BA are asking for a fare only 37 per cent as high as that for a journey that is scheduled to be 24 per cent longer as I showed in Reply 10.. I think that, despite your assertion, BA seem to have done their homework.

As I have previously tried to indicate these fares are not likely to be repeated where the economic advantages of increasing the utilisation of existing equipment is not involved. Here there a direct correlation between what BA have been doing with their E-Jets that would otherwise sit on the ground in Scotland while LCY is closed over part of the weekend and what they are about to do with an A320 that sits on the ground at EDI while LHR is closed overnight.

However in this case BA are looking for a bigger slice of the cake. Instead of just operating the E-Jet charter flights they will operate a 320 scheduled flight. Nevertheless British Airways Holidays will almost certainly be a significant factor in the success or failure of the new EDI-IBZ-EDI rotation. They have ten different products on offer linked directly to this rotation. They range from the flight plus accommodation at the 5 star Aguas de Ibiza to the flight plus accommodation at the 2 star Tagomago.

There is very definitely a lot more behind this new EDI-IBZ service than BA starting a flight based on no experience and with their fingers crossed. But their experience with the 'grounded' E-Jet charters does not guarantee success with the new flight. However if it does prove successful I believe there is another BA A 320 that overnights at EDI. So . . .
 
cornishsimon
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Wed May 21, 2014 8:04 pm

BA also nightstop an airbus/Boeing at EDI ex LGW.


cs
 
skipness1E
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Thu May 22, 2014 12:59 am

Sorry VV701 but I could list for you BA's non stop services from Scotland since 1990 on the fingers of two hands, all lost money, all failed as BA lack(ed) the cost base or the labour flexibility to compete. This is a classic toe in the water management idea. They know they don't want to remain 100 % London centric forever, they want to grow where possible, so over nighting charters seem a good idea.

They used to fly the overnighting MAN shuttle to Spain but it was stopped as any time it picked up an ATC delay, not uncommon, the morning higher yield LHR was delayed, mightily hacking off those who were paying top whack to be on time. The added issue that BA are having to cart crews the length of the country to serve a redeye Spanish holiday route in a price sensitive market also goes against it for me. The length of the sector versus the price has never been reflected in the Scottish holiday market, we generally paid much, much more than MAN/LGW equivalents as it was "further". The real reason was capacity constraints in Scotland driving yield. However let's see, I never thought they'd do LCY-IBZ but that does well and the prices are not cheap.
 
vv701
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RE: BA LGW SH Expansion Summer 2015

Thu May 22, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
Sorry VV701 but I could list for you BA's non stop services from Scotland since 1990 on the fingers of two hands, all lost money, all failed as BA lack(ed) the cost base or the labour flexibility to compete.

If any business is constrained in any way by any situation over the last quarter of a century then it has no future. And back then BA was constrained by its nationalised history which took until the recent establishment of the Mixed Fleet cabin crew to be addressed in any way.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
This is a classic toe in the water management idea.

Yes. And there is some sense to not putting too many eggs into one basket. As I said if it is a success there is another 320 that over-nights at EDI. And there a lot of other BA short-haul aircraft that over-night all over Europe.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 26):
They know they don't want to remain 100 % London centric forever, they want to grow where possible, so over nighting charters seem a good idea.

Here I disagree. I do not think that they are concerned one way or another about being London centric. If an airline is to operate a hub and spoke system then to set up multi-hubs in a geographic area as small as the UK is asking for financial trouble.

Rather I see a concern about the disadvantages of their existing hub, LHR. Although it is theoretically open 24 hours a day, in scheduling short-haul flights terms it shuts down for more than a third of every 24 hour period. So BA is left with a large and expensive fleet of short-haul aircraft sitting around Europe earning nothing. I see the EDI-IBZ service as nothing more than an exercise to address this issue. And I am quite sure that before announcing this service BA will have looked at the cons such as the costs of flying a crew to EDI one evening, providing rest facilities the next day before flying them back to base late in the afternoon. They will have compared them with the pros of additional revenue from the flight after deducting the normal costs on the assumption of obtaining a given yield. And frankly what may have happened over 24 years has, as far as I can see, nothing to do with this.

All that matters is to find out if they can obtain their assumed yield. And their experience in recently operating some not dissimilar charter flights plus the recent rapid expansion of British Airways Holidays will both have played a part here.

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