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Ljungdahl
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Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sat May 17, 2014 8:12 pm

As the title says, which airlines are getting them fitted (or retro-fitted)?

I have already found United, Alaska, Copa, Southwest, Sunwing and TUI so far.

Who is next?  
 
Grisee08
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sat May 17, 2014 8:22 pm

Last I heard, DL will be getting them on new delivery 737-900ERs... I just don't know if they will be retro-fitted to existing 737-932ERs. Maybe someone from DL can elaborate?
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KarelXWB
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sat May 17, 2014 8:26 pm

The following airlines have ordered the winglet for retrofit:

> TUI Travel
> United Airlines
> Alaska Airlines
> Aeromexico
> Sunwing Airlines
> Copa Airlines
> Southwest Airlines
> WestJet

[Edited 2014-05-17 13:28:53]
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Grisee08
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sat May 17, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
The following airlines have ordered the winglets for retrofit:

So is it not true that DL is getting them?
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KarelXWB
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sat May 17, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 3):
So is it not true that DL is getting them?

If they have ordered those winglets, it was without public announcement.

The airlines I listed above all issued a press release about the winglet order.

[Edited 2014-05-17 13:43:20]
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c172akula
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 2:54 am

WS already has at least one 738 with them now. Looks great.
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 3:27 am

The split scimitars will be standard on the 737Max, right?
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seabosdca
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 3:43 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 6):
The split scimitars will be standard on the 737Max, right?

No, the MAX winglet is a new split winglet of Boeing's own design, which looks a bit similar to the APB split scimitar but is actually significantly different.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 3:57 am

Quoting c172akula (Reply 5):
WS already has at least one 738 with them now. Looks great.

Best paint scheme so far in my opinion
 
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
No, the MAX winglet is a new split winglet of Boeing's own design, which looks a bit similar to the APB split scimitar but is actually significantly different.

Thanks. I didn't realize they were different.
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Ljungdahl
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 8:16 am

In the following link:

http://airchive.com/blog/2014/02/09/...ification-split-scimitar-winglets/

there is claimed (almost at the end of the text):

"Since launching the program early last year, APB has taken orders and options for 1,461 Split Scimitar Winglet systems."

That is quite a large number, which further airlines could be included there?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting Ljungdahl (Reply 10):
That is quite a large number, which further airlines could be included there?

The airlines I listed above have a large 737 fleet together:

> TUI Travel: +- 100
> United Airlines: 268
> Alaska Airlines: 137
> Aeromexico: 46
> Sunwing Airlines: 22
> Copa Airlines: 65
> Southwest Airlines: 589
> WestJet: 105

That's 1,332 winglets right there. Also note, the figure you quoted is with options included.

[Edited 2014-05-18 03:11:49]
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Acey
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun May 18, 2014 3:07 pm

WN's 733 + 735 fleet is nearly 150 airplanes. WestJet has 13 736's which wouldn't get them either.
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zululima
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Mon May 19, 2014 11:11 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
The airlines I listed above have a large 737 fleet together:

> TUI Travel: +- 100
> United Airlines: 268
> Alaska Airlines: 137
> Aeromexico: 46
> Sunwing Airlines: 22
> Copa Airlines: 65
> Southwest Airlines: 589
> WestJet: 105

That's 1,332 winglets right there. Also note, the figure you quoted is with options included.

Not really. As Southwest has said, and I imagine other airlines have realized too, there is no reason to retrofit an already-blended-winglet-equipped bird with scimitars. There just isn't enough efficiency gain to offset the price of purchase/installation. You need to list the number of 737s currently without winglets, which will be a fraction of those 1332 (sets).
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Mon May 19, 2014 11:13 pm

DL is very slow and methodical about things like this. They took forever to decide on the winglets for the 757/767 fleet even after most other carriers had ordered them.
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AA777
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Mon May 19, 2014 11:17 pm

I'm sort of surprised that these scimitar winglets were not fitted from the beginning - the MD-11 used to have similar ones, WAY before the 737s were ever fitted with the NG style winglets to begin with.... I presume engineers would have studied various winglet shapes for the 737.... so why now, why the change?

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STT757
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Mon May 19, 2014 11:39 pm

UA is installing them on their entire 738, 739 fleets, 281 aircraft.

https://hub.united.com/en-us/news/co...-take-flight-on-united-737800.aspx
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DocLightning
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Mon May 19, 2014 11:42 pm

Quoting AA777 (Reply 15):
I'm sort of surprised that these scimitar winglets were not fitted from the beginning - the MD-11 used to have similar ones, WAY before the 737s were ever fitted with the NG style winglets to begin with.... I presume engineers would have studied various winglet shapes for the 737.... so why now, why the change?

The MD-11's winglets were different than the split scimitar. In the original Wimpress design, there is a down-going strake with the same sweep and relative dimensions of the main wing that starts at the leading edge and ends at the point of maximum thickness. At the same point where the downward strake ends the main winglet then projects upward again, as a "miniature" of the main wing with the same sweep and relative chord/aspect ratio.

The Split scimitar's downward strake starts well aft of the leading edge of the upward winglet. I am not sure, but I suspect that this works to add a downward twist to the outboard wing that somehow makes the aerodynamics more favorable.

In fact, wingtip devices are frequently used to twist, bend, or otherwise warp the wing to some favorable aerodynamic or structural effect.
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fly2yyz
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Mon May 19, 2014 11:48 pm

Air Transat as well, but don't know how many will actually get them.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting zululima (Reply 13):
As Southwest has said, and I imagine other airlines have realized too, there is no reason to retrofit an already-blended-winglet-equipped bird with scimitars. There just isn't enough efficiency gain to offset the price of purchase/installation. You need to list the number of 737s currently without winglets, which will be a fraction of those 1332 (sets).

This is not true, all of the UA birds that will be getting scimitars already have the blended winglet on the.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 2:45 am

Kinda surprised AA hasn't ordered any,
They fly their 738's on some pretty long routes,
seems like they would be worth the investment   
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 3:31 am

I can see FlyDubai and Copa getting them. They fly some pretty long 737 routes, especially Copa.
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Acey
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 5:24 am

Quoting zululima (Reply 13):
Not really. As Southwest has said, and I imagine other airlines have realized too, there is no reason to retrofit an already-blended-winglet-equipped bird with scimitars. There just isn't enough efficiency gain to offset the price of purchase/installation.

Uhh WS and WG planes already have blended winglets but are still getting retrofitted. I think a better question would be to ask which planes getting scimitars, aside from new orders, are NOT blended winglet equipped, to which the answer is pretty none given how long winglets have been standard fare.
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Boeing778X
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 21):
They fly some pretty long 737 routes, especially Copa.

Copa has a couple 737-800s already in service with Scimitars.
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737tdi
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 6:07 am

Realize with WN and others, they have NGs that are already 16+ years old! Would the split scimitar winglet cost be outweighed in say 8 or 9 years? I don't know, but I suspect not. N701GS should get scimitar winglets??? She has been in service since 1998, quite a long time for a NG, actually the longest other then test aircraft. Where is the cutoff point for profit margin with the installation of Scimitars? How much life is left in N701GS? I know we all get old and don't realize how old the NG is but it has been some time! I started working on them in 1999. Still my question is? Where is the point of value to cost on older NGs? I don't know the answer, that is why I work on them instead of plan their futures.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 6:27 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
. Still my question is? Where is the point of value to cost on older NGs?

Probably similar to where the cost became worth it to fit the 733s and 735s with blended winglets last decade. Your mileage may vary based on how much it costs to change the winglet, naturally.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 7:40 am

Quoting zululima (Reply 13):
Not really. As Southwest has said, and I imagine other airlines have realized too, there is no reason to retrofit an already-blended-winglet-equipped bird with scimitars. There just isn't enough efficiency gain to offset the price of purchase/installation. You need to list the number of 737s currently without winglets, which will be a fraction of those 1332 (sets).

As others have pointed out, that's not the case.
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DocLightning
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 24):
Realize with WN and others, they have NGs that are already 16+ years old! Would the split scimitar winglet cost be outweighed in say 8 or 9 years? I don't know, but I suspect not.

Typically, the ROI should be in less than five years. I believe I read somewhere that UA had projected that the ROI period for the split scimitar was about three years, but I forgot where I read it and this statement should not be repeated as gospel.

The winglets (split or single) provide a benefit at all phases of flight by increasing lift. This means that the aircraft can get more payload, less power, or more range (or some combo of these). However, the greatest benefit occurs at cruise. Thus, the ROI time for a given fleet will depend on route structure and fleet utilization. A 737 that is going to be shuttling back and forth between SFO and LAX for the next three years before going to the desert would be a poor candidate. But a 737 that is going to be in regular service for more than three or so years would be a good candidate.

It's kind of a brilliant move on the part of APB. They timed the introduction of the Scimitars to coincide right with the end of the ROI for the original blended winglet.
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81819
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 27):
It's kind of a brilliant move on the part of APB. They timed the introduction of the Scimitars to coincide right with the end of the ROI for the original blended winglet.

Does anyone know how these Scimitars are sold?

As R&D probably represents the larger portion of the upfront cost and APB will have to monitor the Scimitars through-out the service life of the aircraft, the actual cost to manufacture maybe relatively low.

If the manufacturing costs are relatively low, APB could be selling the Scimitars to the airlines on a ROI basis. In other words the cost of the product could be dependent upon the age of the aircraft.

Simply put if the sell price is broken up into components (i.e. Supply of Scimitars / Engineering Support for Installation / license agreement per hour/year) airlines could benefit from fitting these devices to older aircraft and APB would have more opportunity to get a return on its R&D costs.

Would I be right in assuming APB would not simply sell these items for an upfront cash sum!
 
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:18 pm

Hello,

Maybe someone close to the new APB product can answer this: When adding the APB split scimitar to an aircraft that already had an APB blended winglet, is any of the exisiting winglet used to form the new upper scimitar (e.g. is a new tip put on the blended winglet) - or is the original blended winglet disposed of entirely (maybe stored/sold as spares or something)? Thanks.
 
Seat99A
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:35 pm

The Link below includes an image from AIN Online (I presume from APB) - but I'm still not clear if the existing blended winglet on the aircraft is reinforced, or if it is replaced by a reinforced version of the original design: Thanks to anyone who can clarify.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...boeing-signs-customers-winglet-mod
 
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ER757
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:50 pm

Saw an AS 737 on final approach to SEA on Saturday sporting the new winglets - they look awesome!   
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting Seat99A (Reply 29):
Maybe someone close to the new APB product can answer this: When adding the APB split scimitar to an aircraft that already had an APB blended winglet, is any of the exisiting winglet used to form the new upper scimitar (e.g. is a new tip put on the blended winglet) - or is the original blended winglet disposed of entirely (maybe stored/sold as spares or something)? Thanks.

I have no idea, although the new winglet looks different enough to assume it's a completely new one.

Before:


SUNWING 737-8BK C-FTJH by "Fast" Eddie Maloney, on Flickr

After:


C-FTJH by Steelhead 2010, on Flickr
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DocLightning
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 28):
Would I be right in assuming APB would not simply sell these items for an upfront cash sum!

Generally in an industry like this, the precise nature of the sale to a given customer will differ from customer to customer, but as far as I understand, they are basically sold as a kit. For $5M (made-up number), you get a pair of winglets and the hardware and support for installation.

Quoting Seat99A (Reply 29):
Maybe someone close to the new APB product can answer this: When adding the APB split scimitar to an aircraft that already had an APB blended winglet, is any of the exisiting winglet used to form the new upper scimitar (e.g. is a new tip put on the blended winglet) - or is the original blended winglet disposed of entirely (maybe stored/sold as spares or something)? Thanks.

AFAIK, the existing winglet is not modified. It is removed. I don't know what they do with the removed winglet.
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STT757
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 9:06 pm

Quoting Seat99A (Reply 29):
Maybe someone close to the new APB product can answer this: When adding the APB split scimitar to an aircraft that already had an APB blended winglet, is any of the exisiting winglet used to form the new upper scimitar (e.g. is a new tip put on the blended winglet) - or is the original blended winglet disposed of entirely (maybe stored/sold as spares or something)? Thanks.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 32):
I have no idea, although the new winglet looks different enough to assume it's a completely new one.


Here's what UA says:

Quote:
This new winglet design demonstrates significant aircraft drag reduction over the basic Blended Winglet configuration United uses on its current fleet. Using a newly patented design, the program retrofits United's Boeing Next Generation 737 Blended Winglets by replacing the aluminum winglet tip cap with a new aerodynamically shaped "Scimitar"™ winglet tip cap and by adding a new Scimitar-tipped ventral strake. The new design will reduce fuel consumption by up to 2 percent per aircraft.
http://newsroom.unitedcontinentalhol...-Efficient-Split-Scimitar-Winglets

Sounds like they put a new more aerodynamic cap on the existing winglet, and then add the new ventral strake to the bottom. Same winglet though on top.
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DocLightning
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 34):
Here's what UA says:

Ah, I stand corrected from my post above, then.
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737tdi
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Tue May 20, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 34):
Sounds like they put a new more aerodynamic cap on the existing winglet, and then add the new ventral strake to the bottom. Same winglet though on top.

This is exactly what happens. The current winglets are modified with a new cap and the lower strake is added. I.E. We remove a winglet in DAL and it is sent for refurb./mod. and then is used for the new mod..
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Wed May 21, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 36):
This is exactly what happens. The current winglets are modified with a new cap and the lower strake is added. I.E. We remove a winglet in DAL and it is sent for refurb./mod. and then is used for the new mod..

So you remove the winglets from one and send it off for mod and then install an already-modified winglet from a different frame? That's kinda neat.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Wed May 21, 2014 4:15 pm

Well, the Haribo bear received its new winglets as well:

http://www.planes.cz/cs/photo/119100...ifly-tui-x3-praha-ruzyne-prg-lkpr/
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ODwyerPW
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:20 pm

Saw an Alaska Airliners 737 with them landing at Tucson International Airport yesterday.
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precure787
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:42 pm

American Airlines, Japan Airlines, and/or Hainan Airlines will be next.
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trex8
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:52 pm

What do people do with the original factory wingtip? Is it something there is a decent spares market for or does it get tossed and recycled?
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:13 pm

"What do people do with the original factory wingtip? Is it something there is a decent spares market for or does it get tossed and recycled?"

The winglets get reworked by the manufacturer and shipped back to the airline. A new streamlined cap is added to the top of the winglet and the lower section is bolted in place on the old reworked winglet.

Image
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justplanesmart
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:15 am

According to the records I have, there are about 700 of the 737NG's that have split-scimitar winglets. This includes a few BBJ's, and the following carriers:

United
Comair (both British Airways and Kulula colors)
Yakutia
NEOS
Alaska
NewGen Airways
Sunwing
WestJet
Corendon
TUIfly (German, Swedish, Belgian, and Dutch franchises)
Air Transat
Thomson
COPA
Travel Service
GOL
Southwest
SmartWings
AeroMexico
Luxair
Sun Country
Delta
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Channex757
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:25 am

This is just hearsay (friend of a friend etc...) but someone from TUI mentioned not long ago that they weren't seeing much of a return from theirs.

They might earn their money over longer stages but for airlines that don't need them, the cost of retrofit often isn't worth it. That might explain why notoriously cost-conscious Ryanair isn't taking up the factory option or converting theirs, and they are one of the bigger 737 operators.

Just like the first round of 738s that had the option of winglets, it isn't right for everyone to opt for the scimitars either as a refit or from the factory.
 
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Acey
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:25 am

Channex757 wrote:
This is just hearsay (friend of a friend etc...) but someone from TUI mentioned not long ago that they weren't seeing much of a return from theirs.

They might earn their money over longer stages but for airlines that don't need them, the cost of retrofit often isn't worth it.


I'm sure Sunwing appreciates them. When those leased birds come over from TUI they fly long sectors from Canadian cities to the Caribbean where there are surely savings.
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FlyingJhawk
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Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:14 pm

I am just going to throw this in here since I can't be the only one wondering how to pronounce it. :D

scim·i·tar
ˈsimətər,-ˌtär/Submit
noun
a short sword with a curved blade that broadens toward the point, used originally in Eastern countries.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: RE: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:49 pm

zululima wrote:
Not really. As Southwest has said, and I imagine other airlines have realized too, there is no reason to retrofit an already-blended-winglet-equipped bird with scimitars.


And yet UA disagrees and has been doing just that. Go figure. If fuel goes up, UA will be vindicated. If fuel stays the same or goes down WN will be vindicated. Tea leaves and such.
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chiki
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Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:32 pm

Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:38 pm

BA south africa and Kulula have them, not yet seen them on Mango.
 
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Channex757
Posts: 2416
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: Split Scimitar; Which Airlines Are Getting Them?

Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:06 pm

Acey wrote:

I'm sure Sunwing appreciates them. When those leased birds come over from TUI they fly long sectors from Canadian cities to the Caribbean where there are surely savings.

Sunwing is probably the classic case where they fit in perfectly. Long stages flown up and down North America.

Ryanair though, they have lots of short sectors of an hour to two hours. The capital cost of doing the upgrade presumably isn't there, nor is there a need to pay for them from the factory. Their MAX200 should have them though.

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