G500
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Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Mon May 19, 2014 10:39 pm

At Geneva's EBACE, Gulfstream announced the Gulfstream-650ER, with a range of 7500NM

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ventional-business-jet-the-399445/

Also Falcon confirmed their announcement of the new Falcon 8 with a range of 6400NM
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:10 am

My goodness, what is the $?
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
andrej
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:16 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

That's quite impressive! Now I wish that those things would came at reasonable price.  

Cheers,

Andrej
 
Max Q
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:24 am

Won't the new Global Express still outrange this ?



Supposed to go 8000NM plus.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
G500
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:47 am

The Global 7000 will have a range of 7200NM, and the Global 8000 will have a range of 7900NM, so the G-650ER will fall in the middle

15-16 hours in the air in a corporate-jet. Oh man that's a long time

Gulfstream says their G-650ER will be able to connect Dallas and Dubai or Hong Kong and New York
 
Max Q
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:51 am

Very impressive aircraft, all of them.



I think the Falcon is pretty impressive as well, being able to fly non stop from London City to New York (forget which model)
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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tjcab
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
15-16 hours in the air in a corporate-jet. Oh man that's a long time

indeed, and they probably need to carry along an extra pilot
 
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 4:14 pm

Quoting tjcab (Reply 6):
indeed, and they probably need to carry along an extra pilot

  
You have to start dedicating as much as half the aircraft to the crew, who also need beds, a kitchenette, a lav, maybe a small circus or petting zoo. The money involved is eventually going to hit half a million per trip. People don't seem to care though, do they?
 
G500
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
You have to start dedicating as much as half the aircraft to the crew, who also need beds, a kitchenette, a lav, maybe a small circus or petting zoo. The money involved is eventually going to hit half a million per trip. People don't seem to care though, do they?

Nope not at all

If the CEO of a fortune 100 company needs to be in Tokyo ASAP and he needs to fly from N.Y to Tokyo non-stop, money will not be an issue. I promise you

"Roll out the Gulfstream, going to Asia for 12 days, we need to be airborne within 30 minutes"
 
Mitico12
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 5:41 pm

I would be curious to see if there will be crew rest facilities on these birds in order to comply (if required to comply) with FAR117.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 5:43 pm

Is this the super hush-hush project that was being worked on in the new facility they are building on the north side of the field?

[Edited 2014-05-20 10:44:33]
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 9):

I don't think part 91 has to comply with FAR117.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
Mir
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 11):
I don't think part 91 has to comply with FAR117.

They don't, and nor do Part 135 operators, but a lot of Part 91 operators have rest policies that match at least the 135 duty limits fairly closely.

-Mir
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B777LRF
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 5:59 pm

There is a world outside the US, you know, and in quite a few jurisdictions it's perfectly legal to fly up to 18 hours with 3 crew members but no crew rest. And some owners will indeed order their new G without crew rest. It may also be legal in the US, depending on which Part you're operating under.

I much prefer a Falcon myself - it's the sports car of the biz jet world: Light, agile and able to get in and out of places a G or BBD could only dream of, while still retaining very respectable range. It is also much more advanced than a G (which, quite frankly, is a bit of a tractor) and quite a bit more advanced than a GLX.

But it's all academic anyway, I'll never have enough disposable income to consider buying much more than a single engined prop job, and even that is at the moment just a dream.
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twincessna340a
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):

Not that much at all.

http://www.gulfstream.com/products/g550/interiors.htm
http://www.gulfstream.com/products/g650/interiors.htm

Click on 'With Crew Rest'. Note these are the "standard" interiors. Easily can be done on a G450, IIRC they used to have crew rest "standard options".
 
gulfstream650
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 14):

Would you need four pilots for an ultra long haul or would 3 do the job?
I don't proclaim to be the best pilot in the world but I'm safe
 
foxxray
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:30 pm

Well nice bird but i really hope that they will all get a crew rest area !!!

13 or 14 hours on the jump seat, no thanks...  
 
G500
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 9:48 pm

Quoting gulfstream650 (Reply 15):
Would you need four pilots for an ultra long haul or would 3 do the job?

The Crew rest area in those G-650s is very confortable.

Conservative flight departments do 3 pilots for flights between 10-12 hours. Anything over 12 hours, 4 pilots

Quoting foxxray (Reply 16):
13 or 14 hours on the jump seat, no thanks...

long-range business jets have crew rest areas
 
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TupolevTu154
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 10:06 pm

Does anybody have any photographs of crew rest areas on those long range bizjets? I've never really had any luck when searching myself, but maybe I'm missing something.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 10:30 pm

Both the G650 and Falcon 8X are more than just corporate jets!

In their own respects, both are works of art!    God, they are beautiful!
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Tue May 20, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 13):
It is also much more advanced than a G (which, quite frankly, is a bit of a tractor) and quite a bit more advanced than a GLX.

A tractor!?!? Aww man that made me laugh! I've never heard anyone consider a Gulfstream a "tractor"
 
queb
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 12:08 am

another "tractor" mock-up.

Global 7000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBrEkaxMjbg

I have never saw a Global 6000 (Top
 
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 9:23 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 20):
A tractor!?!? Aww man that made me laugh! I've never heard anyone consider a Gulfstream a "tractor"

Actually you have, in fact the very reason you felt the need to post was as a direct result of someone referring to a Gulfstream as a 'tractor'.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
foxxray
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 12:58 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 17):
long-range business jets have crew rest areas

Most (not all) of the G650 have crew rest areas but it's not mandatory and most of others long range business jets don't have any due to customers choice.
 
bond007
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 8):
If the CEO of a fortune 100 company needs to be in Tokyo ASAP and he needs to fly from N.Y to Tokyo non-stop, money will not be an issue. I promise you

It's becoming much, much, more of an issue trust me. CEO salaries are under detailed scrutiny, and the days of bottomless expense accounts are dwindling. More and more CEOs are using alternative solutions.

The market for this type of range is extremely small. The average flight for the long-range corporate aircraft is remarkably short ...somewhere around 3 hours or less.

It's all very impressive from a design and engineering standpoint, but this is much more about competition and getting the highest 'number'.


Jimbo
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DashTrash
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 13):

Methinks someone is looking through French made glasses.....
 
MD-90
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 25):
Methinks someone is looking through French made glasses.....

Very much so. A tractor?! LOL.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 24):
It's becoming much, much, more of an issue trust me. CEO salaries are under detailed scrutiny, and the days of bottomless expense accounts are dwindling. More and more CEOs are using alternative solutions.

Indeed, they used to be able to justify buying a G650 or a Global Express because of a once-every quarter trip halfway around the world, but shareholders, especially private investment groups, are taking a much closer look at executive expenses and concluding that a small Lear for "everyday" travel combined with chartering a G650 4 times a year is a much cheaper option overall.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 24):
The average flight for the long-range corporate aircraft is remarkably short ...somewhere around 3 hours or less.

But it makes for a very cool three hours or less. I'll never forget being a field tech dispatched to a factory in the middle of nowhere on an emergency using more or less "first available" aircraft and finding myself the only passenger on a two-hour hop in a GV!
All Hail King Donald
 
Flighty
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 6:28 pm

I do recall that on the -550 behind the lav, you can reach the bag compartment. It is carpeted, has a window and would make a nice nap area!

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 27):
But it makes for a very cool three hours or less. I'll never forget being a field tech dispatched to a factory in the middle of nowhere on an emergency using more or less "first available" aircraft and finding myself the only passenger on a two-hour hop in a GV!

Indeed. You arrived in style!!


G-IVs cost around 5-9 mil these days... they are tremendously capable right? Not sure why go for $50 mil...
 
LH707330
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 24):
The market for this type of range is extremely small. The average flight for the long-range corporate aircraft is remarkably short ...somewhere around 3 hours or less.

I suspect some will sell simply because they are the range toppers, the same way some people buy an M3 when a 335 would have been perfectly fine for their needs.
 
bond007
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 29):
I suspect some will sell simply because they are the range toppers, the same way some people buy an M3 when a 335 would have been perfectly fine for their needs.

Correct, I should have said that although the market for the range might be very small, the market for a Gulfstream overall is obviously large enough to justify the development and production costs. It is still a prestigious aircraft to own, even if you don't need the capabilities.


Jimbo
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Semaex
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 24):
The market for this type of range is extremely small. The average flight for the long-range corporate aircraft is remarkably short ...somewhere around 3 hours or less.

It's all very impressive from a design and engineering standpoint, but this is much more about competition and getting the highest 'number'.

I don't doubt that most trips are up to three or so hours. But that makes me wonder why Dassault have just announced a new Falcon sales record. Who are they selling them to? Who really has the need for such a large, long-range, luxurious and - compared to its competition - thirsty aircraft?

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 29):
I suspect some will sell simply because they are the range toppers, the same way some people buy an M3 when a 335 would have been perfectly fine for their needs.

Ohhh no no no. There is no comparison between a classic 3 and an M3. Trust me, I'm German  
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 9:17 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 22):
Actually you have, in fact the very reason you felt the need to post was as a direct result of someone referring to a Gulfstream as a 'tractor'.

You know what I mean!  

Hahhaha...tractor....I'm surprised no Gulfstream or Global pilot has piped in and said anything about that. I've ridden on the G-IVSP, and G550 and at no point did I get the impression they were "tractors".
 
B777LRF
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 9:31 pm

Pleased to see how one little word can stir up such emotion. But, guys, compared to a Falcon 7X the G is very much old hat. It's heavy, has no leading edge devices, has a wing that's far less advances and - must of all - it doesn't have an EASy cockpit. The reason for that is simple, and it's the same reason why a 737 has an overhead panel straight out of the 60s: Commonality.

And that was my point: Compared to a 7X, the G450/550/650 is ancient technology wrapped in a nice frock. That's not to say a G isn't a nice piece of kit, 'cause it very much is.

PS
Emirates crews refer to the 777 as the 'John Deere'. See, I'm not the only one  
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LH707330
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Wed May 21, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 31):
Ohhh no no no. There is no comparison between a classic 3 and an M3. Trust me, I'm German

For the record I am as well, perhaps my example was a bit extreme. Maybe make it an e38 740 vs a 750: sure, one's better, but the passengers mostly don't notice. Bottom line is that many cars and planes sell simply because they're the range toppers, not because people need the capabilities.
 
Newark727
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 19):
Both the G650 and Falcon 8X are more than just corporate jets!

In their own respects, both are works of art!    God, they are beautiful!

There's something about the wing/fuselage proportions of large long-range business jets that tends to produce aesthetically stunning aircraft. If absolutely nothing else, they're a pleasure for me to photograph when I wasn't expecting one.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 6:07 am

Well, I'd have a crew rest on my G650. Or just let the pilots rest in the cabin along with pax if it were a LH flight. I couldn't imagine taking more than 6-8 pax on a G550/G650/GLEX on a 10+ hour flight. Cabin ain't that big to me. I need space.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 6:49 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 35):
There's something about the wing/fuselage proportions of large long-range business jets that tends to produce aesthetically stunning aircraft. If absolutely nothing else, they're a pleasure for me to photograph when I wasn't expecting one.

I'm sure! Always a treat to see.

But the thing that really please the eyes on the G650 is that wing sweep!
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
bond007
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 33):
and - must of all - it doesn't have an EASy cockpit

All depends on whose marketing you listen to, and personal choice of course  

"PlaneView is simply the most advanced flight deck in existence"

EASy certainly isn't any more 'leading edge' than PlaneView is. The underlying technology is Honeywell in both.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 33):
That's not to say a G isn't a nice piece of kit, 'cause it very much is.

Well, they're selling a lot more of them than Dassault, for sure.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 38):
Well, they're selling a lot more of them than Dassault, for sure.

Ford sell a lot more cars than Aston Martin, but I know which one I'd buy with my money.  
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
bond007
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 39):
Ford sell a lot more cars than Aston Martin, but I know which one I'd buy with my money.

Well that would depend on how much money you had of course  

But not a good comparison ....are you saying the Aston Martin is the 7X or the Gulfstream??  

The 2 aircraft are similar in price unlike your two cars, and the cars are not remotely similar on performance.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 40):
But not a good comparison ....are you saying the Aston Martin is the 7X or the Gulfstream??

I'm not actually making a direct comparison either way, and nobody mention 7X's, only Dassault's in general.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 40):
The 2 aircraft are similar in price unlike your two cars, and the cars are not remotely similar on performance.

That's entirely dependent on which Ford, Aston Martin, Gulfstream or indeed Dassault you are talking about. Simply saying the Aston Martin is more expensive than a Ford depends entirely on which model as some Fords are more expensive than some Astons.

Getting back to Bizjets, there is of course far more to the buying decision than brand name or number of engines, or cabin size, or colour or any other metric.

Customer support is probably one of the biggest considerations, and that is where the geographical differences start to get interesting. Gulfstream support in the US is widely considered the best you can get, pretty much everyone raves about how well they look after their customers. In Europe the opposite is true, Gulfstream support is considered the worst you will find, hence there are so few Gulfstreams operating in Europe these days.

Another is MTOW, the Gulfstream is a big heavy beast. In Europe (and much of the rest of the world) that results in much higher navigation, approach, landing, handling and parking charges so the Dassault is well liked here because they can weigh as little as half the equivalent Gulfstream. Those costs are generally not an issue in the US where nav charges are waived on everything except overflights, airports are publicly owned and FBO's normally work on the model of charging for fuel and as long as you uplift enough motion lotion everything else is more or less free gratis.

There are so many variables in this equation that which airplane is 'best' depends on more than just face value.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 33):
It's heavy, has no leading edge devices,

Does it need them? I've watched 4s, 450s, 5s, and 550s land on plenty of 5000ft strips, which was our company minimum for anything swept wing except the Beechjet. Looks to me like the Gulfstreams do just fine with no slats. I've also been through factory new 550's and 7X's. From an owner comfort standpoint there is little difference between the two, at least sitting on the ground.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 2:10 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 42):
Does it need them?

Yes.

Landing distances aren't the issue. Throw a little heat or altitude into the equation and the larger gulfstreams will need closer to 7000ft for take off.
 
bond007
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 2:26 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 41):
and nobody mention 7X's

OK, In thought we were comparing G500/550 to 7Xs, in which case Gulfstream does sell many more.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 41):
That's entirely dependent on which Ford, Aston Martin, Gulfstream or indeed Dassault you are talking about. Simply saying the Aston Martin is more expensive than a Ford depends entirely on which model as some Fords are more expensive than some Astons.

That was my point....

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 41):
Getting back to Bizjets, there is of course far more to the buying decision than brand name or number of engines, or cabin size, or colour or any other metric.

Exactly. Back to my original comment that range numbers are little more than marketing.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 41):
so the Dassault is well liked here because they can weigh as little as half the equivalent Gulfstream

So what comparable Dassault has an MTOW half of a Gulfstream ....???


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Mir
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 42):
Does it need them?

It doesn't necessarily need them, but it's no secret that runway and climb performance is an area in which Falcons have a clear edge over the competition, and that's partially due to the wing design and the slats. You do pay for that capability in the form of shorter range, but if your normal mission doesn't require the extra range and you want to be able to take more weight out of a performance-critical airport, then a Falcon is very attractive.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 44):
So what comparable Dassault has an MTOW half of a Gulfstream ....???

Its not quite exactly half, But the DA2000s and G350 are pretty close.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
foxxray
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 3:38 pm

After Boeing vs Airbus, we have Gulfstream vs Dassault...  

The G650 is a very modern aircraft just like the 7X, but the G400/450/500/550 are based on the GIII... Nice flight deck but behind those big screens, the architecture is archaeological  
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 42):

The fact is that the 7X wing is stunning, you can have a Vref as low as 104 kt  
We all have seen Gulfstreams, Glex and Falcons T/O from 5000' runways (even shorter) but you will see more often a Falcon and a Glex than a Gulfstream. And i would like to know the TOW and LW of a G550 from runways shorter than 5000ft on a commercial flight in order to be within the rules requirements.

The G650 mtow is 104000lb, what about Teterboro opeartions ?

Ps: i am a Gulfstream fan  
 
DashTrash
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting foxxray (Reply 47):
After Boeing vs Airbus, we have Gulfstream vs Dassault...

There are plenty more battles out there for those that have little better to do.

Quoting foxxray (Reply 47):
The G650 mtow is 104000lb, what about Teterboro opeartions ?

Not sure about TEB, but I'm pretty sure the 650 is restricted from ASE due to wingspan.

Quoting foxxray (Reply 47):
Ps: i am a Gulfstream fan

I'm a paycheck and QOL fan. Doesn't really explain why I bid the X though.
 
neutronstar73
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RE: Gulfstream Announces G-650ER (7500NM Range)

Thu May 22, 2014 4:30 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 39):
Ford sell a lot more cars than Aston Martin, but I know which one I'd buy with my money.

Edit:

The comparison between Aston and Ford was already covered so I delete.

 

[Edited 2014-05-22 09:34:41]

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