VS To Start Flights To ATL, Delta To Start LAX

deltacto · Thu May 22, 2014 5:33 pm

From Delta's Press Release

http://news.delta.com/2014-05-21-Del...athrow-and-Atlanta-and-Los-Angeles

Delta will continue to operate its Atlanta, Detroit and Minneapolis services from London Heathrow's Terminal 4.
Virgin Atlantic will operate its Atlanta flight from Heathrow Terminal 3

But they don't say anything about the terminals at LAX
Will VS continue to operate from T2 and the DL flight LAX-LHR from T5?

deltal1011man · Thu May 22, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 91):
Trim is not the only major difference

what are the other "major" differences ?

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 91):
(And, even if it were, it is not an insignificant one, given the type of customer.)

....your kidding me right? I would love to see some data that trim is a part of why someone buys a ticket.

The leather seat covers....maybe. The trim? I am tossing a big bs flag on it.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 91):

In any case, the true premium customer for this route knows the difference. Premium customers have gotten more sophisticated. Thank SeatGuru and all the other channels that scrutinize the various planes/products.

seatguru isn't even always right.
but at least you haven't thrown out flyertalk. (yet)

Most of the HVCs just "think" they know what they are talking about. That is why places like FT are 99% completely worthless.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 86):
I would have to question that one? Can you cite the specific airline? Certainly not DL.

um. what are you talking about?

For the second time, Delta has 7 767-300ERs that have pilot crew rest bunks LHR-LAX will be operated by these.

little advice, i wouldn't question the people who work on these planes.

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 86):
I was thinking of EDDF to KLAX and that's where the problem occured not any Lonon to Loas Angeles service.

When was FRA operated on a 767? I only remember L10 and M11s.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 92):
- it's the 76L category

76T.

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 92):

Essentially, the 76L would do a ATL-LAX-HND-LAX-LHR-JFK rotation (the LAX-LHR can only turn to the current late JFK flight) with the return being US hub-LHR-LAX-ATL.

IIRC HND is also on a 76T.

deltacto · Thu May 22, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 86):
I was thinking of EDDF to KLAX and that's where the problem occured not any Lonon to Loas Angeles service.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 101):
When was FRA operated on a 767? I only remember L10 and M11s.

Deltal1011man is correct. LAX-FRA started on the L15 then switched to the M11 - no 763 from LAX
The longest 763 route from FRA was DFW

[Edited 2014-05-22 11:12:36]

deltal1011man · Thu May 22, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting deltacto (Reply 102):

Deltal1011man is correct. LAX-FRA started on the L15's then switched to M11 - no 763 from LAX
The longest 763 route from FRA was DFW

and Delta did have crew rest issues on the 777 when they first got them. I also seem to remember an issue with the crew rest on the L10s.
but I don't remember an issue with the M11.

bobnwa · Thu May 22, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 56):
There are also numerous videos and pictures out there of aircraft overtaking each other across the Atlantic.

Do the videos and pictures show the departure city and time for each departure?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 67):
Nope, they are real leather, regardless of what anyone wants to believe.

No US airline uses real leather for its seats just as no car company does. They may call it leather, but it is artificially produced.

BravoOne · Thu May 22, 2014 7:22 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 103):
nd Delta did have crew rest issues on the 777 when they first got them. I also seem to remember an issue with the crew rest on the L10s.
but I don't remember an issue with the M11.

Thanks for the update on the 767ER mods. Looks like DL finally has grown up.

To my knowledge DL never had an approved 12 hour+ crew rest on the L15. The first eight, if not more 777's were delivered without any crew rest other than a Biz class seat. DL wisely waited for the overhead crew rest for that airplane. It was a moot point since they did not fly any 12+ hour legs for quite awhile. The MD11 on the other hand 1st had a box like crew rest in the very aft of the coach section. Two bunk for pilots only. This was later moved forward to the aft potion of Biz class along with four dedicated FA rest seats. Later they did a god awful tube up near the 1L door. This where the union finally drew the line and all sorts of things happened.

For some reason DL just could stand the thought of a rested pilot doing a landing after say 15 hours from LAX to HKG!
These make shift rest modules were only installed in the MD11's with aux tanks. PDX-TPE, LAX-HKG were the routes these were used on until the end.

You can ask me how I know this but I would have to take the 5th!

RyanairGuru · Thu May 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 99):
Yet Delta is, IIRC, the only major long-haul airline

When you are in a minority of one you know that either you got it wrong or all your competitors are stupid. Somehow I doubt that it is the latter.

Viscount724 · Thu May 22, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 104):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 67):
Nope, they are real leather, regardless of what anyone wants to believe.

No US airline uses real leather for its seats just as no car company does. They may call it leather, but it is artificially produced.

What do you mean? Dozens of airlines use real leather.

The only "artificially produced" leather I'm aware of is "E-leather" which is a mix of synthetic materials and ground up leather fibers (usually waste products from real leather production). It's made by a UK company. A few carriers are using it including Southwest, JetBlue and several other mainly LCC carriers.
http://www.eleathergroup.com/

KLM recently replaced the seats on their CityHopper Fokker 70s with new lightweight seats covered with E-leather. I've been on half a dozen of those aircraft. You can tell it's not real leather as it's too uniform but most passengers probably won't notice. I believe the major advantage over real leather is lighter weight.

The KLM F70 cabin with the new E-leather seats. The CityHopper E190s and Fokker 70s are the only aircaft in the KLM fleet with leather seats. That's one reason I like flying KLM as I don't like leather and all their mainline aircraft use cloth, including their 737s used within Europe.

DL_Mech · Thu May 22, 2014 10:56 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 107):
A few carriers are using it including Southwest, JetBlue and several other mainly LCC carriers.

Economy Comfort and all the new "Luxury" coach seat covers are e-Leather.

DTWLAX · Fri May 23, 2014 1:39 am

Quoting deltacto (Reply 100):
But they don't say anything about the terminals at LAX
Will VS continue to operate from T2 and the DL flight LAX-LHR from T5?

Yes. I see no reason for that to change.

laca773 · Fri May 23, 2014 3:41 am

Quoting deltacto (Reply 100):

But they don't say anything about the terminals at LAX
Will VS continue to operate from T2 and the DL flight LAX-LHR from T5?

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 109):
Yes. I see no reason for that to change

deltacto, are you asking if VS might move their operations to T5 for DL to handle so they are under one roof?
If they were to do so, they would need to use 68 or 69 in T6 as I don't believe T5 can handle the 744, or A346s, unless it's gate 57 or 58? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

mayor · Fri May 23, 2014 3:43 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 110):
deltacto, are you asking if VS might move their operations to T5 for DL to handle so they are under one roof?
If they were to do so, they would need to use 68 or 69 in T6 as I don't believe T5 can handle the 744, or A346s, unless it's gate 57 or 58? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What are they using, now, for 744s (they are flying 744s out of LAX, right?)

laca773 · Fri May 23, 2014 4:05 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 111):

What are they using, now, for 744s (they are flying 744s out of LAX, right?)

Today: 22 May 2014
VS008 @ 1655-->744
VA024 @ 2200-->346

Friday: 23 May 2014
VS008 @ 1655-->744
VS024 @ 2200-->343

DTWLAX · Fri May 23, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 111):
What are they using, now, for 744s (they are flying 744s out of LAX, right?)

Quoting laca773 (Reply 112):
Today: 22 May 2014
VS008 @ 1655-->744
VA024 @ 2200-->346

Friday: 23 May 2014
VS008 @ 1655-->744
VS024 @ 2200-->343

VS uses T2 at LAX and not T5.

If DL plans to use DL metal to LHR in the winter that flight will use T5 while the VS flight will still use T2.
If in summer it switches back to VS metal, both flights will operate out of T2.

As for DL operating 744s to other destinations out of LAX, I believe they use gates 57 & 58 at T5 and gates 68 & 69 at T6

laca773 · Fri May 23, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 113):
As for DL operating 744s to other destinations out of LAX, I believe they use gates 57 & 58 at T5 and gates 68 & 69 at T6

68 & 69 for the 744s. T5 can accomodate 77E/77L/A330/767/76W. (777s @ 57, 58). The way T5 is currently configured, I don't believe there's space for the 744 without shutting down the gate on each side of it. I don't see this changing with the number of flights at this point. They need all the gates w/jetways they can get their hands on.

questions · Fri May 23, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 108):
Economy Comfort and all the new "Luxury" coach seat covers are e-Leather.

Please clarify. Does Delta use leather or e-leather?

oc2dc · Sat May 24, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 13):
You haven't flown the hard products if you really think it's equal to AA's J on the 77W.

It's a very weak hard product, but made weak by the limitations of the 763 size more than anything else. AA's 763s use the same weak seat.

Quoting klkla (Reply 54):
Also there is nothing inferior about the 767. Business: 100% lie-flat seats with direct aisle access, excellent service, and very good catering (better than AA or UA international business for sure).

I just flew AA ZRH-JFK in the new J(basically same J as DL) and then JFK-LAX in F on the A321T (essentially the J product on the AA 77W). I can tell you I was incredible underwhelmed by the new 767 J. The only improvement is the fact that it is lie flat. I strongly dislike the little cubby hole type feel for your feet while in the lie flat position. It's an improvement but not great. That is essentially what DL is flying LAX-LHR. The F (77W J) product on AA on the other hand was absolutely amazing. The privacy level was not even close to what you could get in J on a DL 767. Additionally, the bed and product are a lot more functional and the foot area when lying flat is not as restrictive. There is almost no comparison between the DL 767 J and the AA 77W J. Hands down, fliers would prefer the AA product. . .

So yes, DL is sending an inferior product to LHR...Unless you're comparing it to UA J.......

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
Most passengers aren't in J class.

You're right, most passengers aren't flying J, but J passengers are paying most of the bills.

sevenheavy · Sat May 24, 2014 7:00 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 104):

No, although I'm sure you knew that.

Sorry, I'm missing something in your question. My response was to the assertion that all aircraft have to fly at exactly the same speed when using NAT Tracks. I know this not to be true. I also know I have seen videos of aircraft overtaking other aircraft across the Atlantic. I have even witnessed it myself a few times.

Although, to your original point, any avgeek worth their salt would like to think that airline and aircraft type would give them a decent idea of when and where the aircraft originated

delta2ual · Sat May 24, 2014 4:16 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 116):
Hands down, fliers would prefer the AA product. . .

So you're comparing F to J and saying that pax's would prefer F? No kidding!

CV880 · Sat May 24, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 116):
So yes, DL is sending an inferior product to LHR...Unless you're comparing it to UA J.......

Perhaps when DL has the gonads to replace the 767 with the 744 (in the spring/summer) to improve the image...

goldenstate · Sun May 25, 2014 4:20 am

This has been a truly fascinating debate about e-leather vs perforated leather vs non perforated leather, as well as DL vs AA seat trim. Just the things that came to mind when I learned that DL and VS were trading an ATL and LAX frequency.

jetwet1 · Sun May 25, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 119):
Perhaps when DL has the gonads to replace the 767 with the 744 (in the spring/summer) to improve the image...

The days of airlines putting the wrong aircraft on a route just for image is gone.

The 76T is a good aircraft for this route, the soft product is competitive.

mayor · Sun May 25, 2014 5:41 am

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 120):
This has been a truly fascinating debate about e-leather vs perforated leather vs non perforated leather, as well as DL vs AA seat trim. Just the things that came to mind when I learned that DL and VS were trading an ATL and LAX frequency.

Well, when some of the AA fanboys start grasping at straws, who knows what they'll come up with.

Viscount724 · Mon May 26, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 116):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 64):
Most passengers aren't in J class.

You're right, most passengers aren't flying J, but J passengers are paying most of the bills.

But how many flights would be profitable if there were no Y class passengers? It's still an important market that carriers shouldn't ignore.

oc2dc · Mon May 26, 2014 2:33 am

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 118):
Quoting oc2dc (Reply 116):
Hands down, fliers would prefer the AA product. . .

So you're comparing F to J and saying that pax's would prefer F? No kidding!

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I flew on the A321T in F which is the exact same product as the J cabin of the 77W on AA(LAX-LHR is flown on the 77W). I'm saying the J product of the AA 77W is hand over fist better than the DL 767 J product....I've tested the 77W J seat, just not on the 77W.......

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 123):
But how many flights would be profitable if there were no Y class passengers? It's still an important market that carriers shouldn't ignore.

I'm not saying Y doesn't pay the bills as well. However, premium customers expect quality products and quality service. Y customers only care about how much it costs to get across the pond.......Clearly there is a reason airlines are putting so much money into making the premium cabins incredible.

CV880 · Mon May 26, 2014 7:03 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 121):
The days of airlines putting the wrong aircraft on a route just for image is gone.

And why would the 744 be the wrong aircraft in such a high season lucrative market?

delimit · Mon May 26, 2014 2:37 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 16):
The 767s are getting old, and while I'm sure DL's maintenance is good, old planes break down and I'll take my chances on a newer A380 or 77W.

The actual data proves this wrong. Delta's completion factor is 99.7%. Old airplanes aren't a factor when you take care of them.

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 99):
Yet Delta is, IIRC, the only major long-haul airline that uses cheap, un-perforated leather.

"A lot of people" must not be very many if every other major airline sees fit not to use the material.

And I am sure, given this important factor, it will show up in Delta's revenue. Oh, wait...

questions · Mon May 26, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 124):
I flew on the A321T in F which is the exact same product as the J cabin of the 77W on AA(LAX-LHR is flown on the 77W).

Isn't that going to change? I thought I read somewhere that AA's J product is changing, i.e., the seats on the first 77W's (which are similar to CX and DL (744 and A330)) were installed because the planned new J product was not yet available.

MAH4546 · Mon May 26, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 126):
And I am sure, given this important factor, it will show up in Delta's revenue. Oh, wai

What's your point? I never said anything about how it would affect their numbers. It's premium product on this plane and the 772 really sucks, that's all. It's removing a bunch of J seats from the 777s because it can't sell them. That's quite telling. Other airlines aren't doing that.

slcdeltarumd11 · Mon May 26, 2014 5:05 pm

I am still dreaming that Delta can get a slot to start SLC-LHR summer 2015......... Delta has publicly said and in documents filed that it is a route they want to fly when/if they get more LHR slots.

coronado · Mon May 26, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 16):
The 767s are getting old, and while I'm sure DL's maintenance is good, old planes break down and I'll take my chances on a newer A380 or 77W.

It would be fascinating to put up their completion factors (and on time factors) against any other airline. Here are Delta's numbers for the last 12 months (source Delta.com monthly Operating Performance reports)
Month Completion Factor On Time Pct
April 2014 99.9% 85.2
March 2014 99.8% 84.3
February 2014 95.5% 77.5 *8000 flights cancelled due to WX
January 2014 95.3% 70.2 *4000 flights cancelled due to WX
Dec 2013 99.6% 79.5
Nov 2013 99.9% 88.3
Oct 2013 99.9% 91.4
Sep 2013 99.9% 85%
Aug 2013 99.9% 85%
July 2013 99.5% 74.5%
June 2013 99.6% 76%
May 2014 99.9% 86.2%

Average Completion Factor Last 12 mos. 99.1%
Average Completion Factor excluding outlier WX (weather cancellations due to severe winter storms) months of Jan 2014 and Feb 2014: 99.8%. And I am sure that analyzing the two next lowest months of June and July 2013 there was probably a high incidence of weather cancellations during those two months--severe thunder-storms, lightning storms and tornado's have a way of disrupting operations. There is probably a small number of cancellations due to a crew being out of position. In summary, it does not strike me that operating an ''experienced'' fleet seems to slow down Delta's operational reliability!

goldenstate · Tue May 27, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 128):
What's your point? I never said anything about how it would affect their numbers. It's premium product on this plane and the 772 really sucks, that's all. It's removing a bunch of J seats from the 777s because it can't sell them. That's quite telling. Other airlines aren't doing that.

You seem more focused on prestige and appearances than what actually works. DL 777s are left with 37 J seats, which is probably the right number for a fleet that doesn't spend a lot of time flying to LHR, and probably the right number for competitive capacity growth forecasts in the Transpacific markets where the fleet does spend a lot of its time. I wouldn't interpret the reduction in J seats as the result of a competitive disadvantage in hard product.

I will grant you that DL's hard product leaves something to be desired relative to some premium foreign competitors as well as a portion of AA's new product. But if I'm DL management, making decisions in a capital constrained environment, I'd probably invest only what is necessary to have a hard product that is competitive and checks all the right boxes (flat beds, 100% direct aisle access), and invest the difference in other areas that are arguably more important to premium customers: operational reliability, IROP recovery technology, customer service training, etc.

So far, the marketplace seems to have validated DL's prioritization of capital investment. As DL continues gradually moving upmarket and competing for an increasingly premium revenue base, further investment in hard product may become necessary. AA is an established player in the premium space, but no amount of aesthetically pleasing cabin furnishings will keep customers around if the merger integration results in operational or service problems.

travelin man · Tue May 27, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting Coronado (Reply 130):
Average Completion Factor Last 12 mos. 99.1%
Average Completion Factor excluding outlier WX (weather cancellations due to severe winter storms) months of Jan 2014 and Feb 2014: 99.8%. And I am sure that analyzing the two next lowest months of June and July 2013 there was probably a high incidence of weather cancellations during those two months--severe thunder-storms, lightning storms and tornado's have a way of disrupting operations. There is probably a small number of cancellations due to a crew being out of position. In summary, it does not strike me that operating an ''experienced'' fleet seems to slow down Delta's operational reliability!

Now you would need to break down the figures by plane type to see if older planes do in fact break down more often than newer ones.

If new planes break down just as often as 20-25 year old planes, I would posture that Boeing and Airbus have an issue on their hands!

And take that 0.9% "incompletion" factor and multiply it across the number of flights Delta has -- how many tens of thousands of flights is that?

mayor · Tue May 27, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting travelin man (Reply 132):
And take that 0.9% "incompletion" factor and multiply it across the number of flights Delta has -- how many tens of thousands of flights is that?

And yet, if AA or UA's completion percentages are less than DL's completion figures, even with shiny, new fleets, what does that say for older fleets (albeit well taken cared of) vs newer fleets?

oc2dc · Wed May 28, 2014 4:43 am

Quoting questions (Reply 127):
Isn't that going to change? I thought I read somewhere that AA's J product is changing, i.e., the seats on the first 77W's (which are similar to CX and DL (744 and A330)) were installed because the planned new J product was not yet available.

77W is not changing anytime soon. The 77E is getting the newer J product. The product is very similar to the 77W J. The most noticeable difference between the two different J products is the fact that the new 77E J will be forward and backward facing... back on topic.....Even the new 77E AA product will trump anything DL offers across the pond...

VS To Start Flights To ATL, Delta To Start LAX

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