johnberg
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Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:13 am

DL and AA in particular seem like they have the extra capacity and/or orders to expand, while as we all know UA has a known shortage of mainline and large RJ aircraft. Wouldn't this be a good time for DL to connect LAX/SEA to larger UA markets like ORD, IAH, and DEN. I can't think of any AA routes off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some. I'm sure DL and AA would be able to lure away business fliers, and other frequent fliers do to their better product both hard and soft. I don't see how UA would be able to retaliate at this stage.
 
travaz
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:18 am

I think You will see some of that happen from the AA side. It will take some time for AA/US to sort it all out. I agree that UA could be vulnerable
 
apodino
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting johnberg (Thread starter):
DL and AA in particular seem like they have the extra capacity and/or orders to expand, while as we all know UA has a known shortage of mainline and large RJ aircraft. Wouldn't this be a good time for DL to connect LAX/SEA to larger UA markets like ORD, IAH, and DEN. I can't think of any AA routes off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some. I'm sure DL and AA would be able to lure away business fliers, and other frequent fliers do to their better product both hard and soft. I don't see how UA would be able to retaliate at this stage.

DL is very profitable doing what they are doing, and the new Delta will not simply launch these routes just to go after UA, but rather if they feel they can make money on them. DL is focusing its growth on markets where they can make money, and just looking at financials, shows they are putting it to UA just as it is.

As for the larger UA markets you mention, ORD has enough competition from other carriers, especially AA. DEN and IAH are important UA markets, but given that AA has a rather small presence in both markets, and is shrinking the RJ fleet, they are probably content to let UA duke it out with WN on these routes.

So basically, AA and DL are going after UA, but they are not doing it in the way we think of in the past. They are doing it by recognizing where the money is to be made, and going out there and capturing that business, not by flooding outstation-outstation markets with cheap fares and frequency like in the past.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:32 am

While the opportunity might exist to pick off some good routes from UA, DL and AA have to be careful to not do anything which might cause UA to lose too much market share.

The government would get involved if it looked like the big three would become the big two airlines.

Actually, WN and B6 are better poised to go after UA markets because they won't incur anti-trust investigations.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 3):
The government would get involved if it looked like the big three would become the big two airlines.

The government has already decided. If anyone goes belly up, they go belly up.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:57 am

DL and AA might Like to go after UA but with the new airplanes that UA is getting? I would be cautious.
UA has every capability of striking back, They're everywhere we already fly, and we Co-exist peacefully.
It actually Might be a Good Idea Especially if it wakes up senior managment to get on the Warpath and Strike BACK!! Heck!! I'd be all for that !! Delta is heavy in Atlanta and We Do fly to Atlanta, All we'd have to do is delay Retiring the 767-322's while the 787's are arriving and start placing them into places like ATL and DFW. We could send the message Pretty darn Quick.
Contrary to popular belief. All that Striking and Going after Stuff?? Is all in Your minds, on A.Net Because they know next to nothing about how an airline is actually Run.
Nobody will EVER BULLY United.!!
Especially NOT Southwest. We can EASILY return the favor!! We already Did the last time they tried that at SFO with "Shuttle" and later on with TED..
 
EricR
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:14 am

Why should AA and DL go after UA when others such as F9 (IAD, DEN), VX (SFO), and WN (DEN/LAX) are already going after UA? Let the others do the dirty work and pricing battles with UA.

[Edited 2014-05-21 19:39:19]
 
johnberg
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:26 am

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):
DL is very profitable doing what they are doing, and the new Delta will not simply launch these routes just to go after UA, but rather if they feel they can make money on them.

I think DL would find them profitable. Look at markets like NYC, ATL, SLC, MSP, and DTW to CHI (ORD & MDW) where all three compete plus WN. Outside of NYC DL has the same if not more capacity and frequency. I don't think they would be at that level if it didn't make good business sense. ORD would be good feed for the Pacific/Australian flights from both LAX and SEA.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):

DL and AA might Like to go after UA but with the new airplanes that UA is getting? I would be cautious.

What aircraft? If if they did I'm sure the flood of capacity UA put on BOS/EWR to SFO/LAX is doing them financial wonders.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):
Especially NOT Southwest. We can EASILY return the favor!! We already Did the last time they tried that at SFO with "Shuttle" and later on with TED..

Where is "Shuttle" and TED now? Last I checked WN is the largest carrier in California. And UA has basically abandon their hub in SEA.

[Edited 2014-05-21 19:27:08]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:28 am

If you think F9 @IAD is called bullying, I'd love to see WN @ DAL giving AA a good run for their money

Basically DL is most immune to LCCs due to their selection of hubs

Quoting johnberg (Reply 7):

I don't think UA has really flooded EWR-BOS? It's been roughly the same schedule for a long time. But I agree the 200x daily on EWR-SFO/LAX was unnecessary.
 
johnberg
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 8):
I don't think UA has really flooded EWR-BOS? It's been roughly the same schedule for a long time. But I agree the 200x daily on EWR-SFO/LAX was unnecessary.

Apologies bad use of abbreviations. I meant BOS to LAX and SFO, and EWR to LAX and SFO.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:33 am

There is an entirely different mindset in the industry than there was 10 years ago. It is no longer driven by conquesting marketshare and flooding markets with capacity.

DL is focused on achieving financial targets that provide shareholder value, pay down debt, and provide profit sharing to their employees. It is not about growth for the sake of growth. It is about generating more value from their invested capital, and smartly deploying capacity that will generate the greatest return.

Despite the popular opinion on A.net, UA is not "weak". They are still going to generate a significant profit in 2014, despite their Q1 performance.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:35 am

UA is not performing as well but they're not some wounded animal either. It's not like other airlines will just be able to drive UA out of all these markets.

In the areas where UA shares hubs, I think we are seeing a bit of "going after UA" (though I'd argue it's just the other airlines competing and growing a bit and UA staying where they are or maybe shrinking a bit in some markets.)

Again, UA should be doing a lot better but they aren't dying or anything
 
United1
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting johnberg (Thread starter):
I don't see how UA would be able to retaliate at this stage.

UA can respond and has in the past....when DL added SFO-SEA UA upped its frequency to 11 daily flights in the market...all mainline.

Quoting johnberg (Reply 7):
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):

DL and AA might Like to go after UA but with the new airplanes that UA is getting? I would be cautious.

What aircraft? If if they did I'm sure the flood of capacity UA put on BOS/EWR to SFO/LAX is doing them financial wonders.

UA has about 150 737-9 and 9 MAXes coming online as well as 70 EMB-175s going to UAX...they are planning on replacing the last of the domestic 757s with the 737s but if they really feel the need they would be able slow that process down.

Quoting johnberg (Reply 7):
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):
Especially NOT Southwest. We can EASILY return the favor!! We already Did the last time they tried that at SFO with "Shuttle" and later on with TED..

Where is "Shuttle" and TED now? Last I checked WN is the largest carrier in California. And UA has basically abandon their hub in SEA.

While I am not sure of the relative size difference between WN and UA in CA no one can doubt that UA is a formidable airline in both LA and the SF bay area. UA never really considered SEA a hub...
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:37 am

Quoting johnberg (Reply 9):

Has UA flooded BOS-LAX ? I thought they're just kinda hanging on in there

BOS-SFO is a different animal - UA practically owns it, but it's also one of the hardest routes for elites to upgrade, so maybe the capacity offered is actually justified
 
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Polot
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:39 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
Despite the popular opinion on A.net, UA is not "weak". They are still going to generate a significant profit in 2014, despite their Q1 performance.

  
They may be under performing compared to DL and AA/US, but many people on here have gone completely off the wall melodramatic about UA's financial performance. UA is still capable of putting up a good fight. They are not weeks away from bankruptcy. An attack on one of their fortress hub is going to take a significant amount of time, money, and resources that neither DL or AA/US are interested in spending, especially with AA/US focused on their own merger (should probably get that sorted out before starting an all out assault on UA) and DL focused on SEA.
 
UA444
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:57 am

The competition has already pretty much beaten them when it comes to competing at their hubs. Downgauging SFO-MSP to UAX in October (though going twice daily), no mainline from ORD/IAD/DEN-ATL, UAX MSP-LAX, UAX DEN-DTW, hardly any mainline at SLC, CLT, DTW, dwindling at DFW and MIA and the list goes on and on.

Other airlines can manage to put respectable or even sizeable amounts of mainline equipment into the competitions hubs, but Smisek runs away from the competition or throws Barbie jets at them. But hey, we gotta dump them perfectly good 757s.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 15):



DL is 100% RJ on LGA-ORD and SFO-LAX while AA is barely 4x daily RJs on ORD-IAH ... Anyone can cherry pick routes to make the other airline look bad

From a passenger's perspective, I want the airline that serves the most destinations and frequencies out of my hometown airport, not the one that's mainline heavy but asks me to make a connection for every secondary destination. As an example - UA at LAX is the most RJ heavy out of the big 3 but offers the most destinations nonstop.
 
sq256
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting johnberg (Reply 7):
Where is "Shuttle" and TED now? Last I checked WN is the largest carrier in California. And UA has basically abandon their hub in SEA.

UA never had a hub in SEA. A Focus City with a crew base at most, but definitely not a hub.
 
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ADent
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 5:10 am

Too many carriers on SEA-DEN today. F9, WN, UA, AS.

LAX-DEN is F9, WN, UA, AA

Does DL really want to the 5th carrier on a route?


At some point DL may need to add flights to fill out the route structure, but it could be a struggle to make much money.
 
jetwet1
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 5:42 am

Quoting johnberg (Thread starter):
I'm sure DL and AA would be able to lure away business fliers, and other frequent fliers do to their better product both hard and soft. I don't see how UA would be able to retaliate at this stage.

It could point out to those frequent fliers bosses that his/her employees were flying an airline that their company didn't have a contract with. It's something that gets missed on here a lot, yes there are those that get to pick which airlines they fly, but there are a lot more that are told which airline they fly due to company contracts....And trust me, UA fights tooth and nail for those contracts.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 6:26 am

Quoting johnberg (Reply 7):
Where is "Shuttle" and TED now? Last I checked WN is the largest carrier in California. And UA has basically abandon their hub in SEA

The Pilots wanted the shuttle and Ted done away with and mangement gave in. IMy guess irt was a pay issuw bcause shuttle and Ted were paid at 78/84 ths of Mainline salary and ascended before returnig to mainline/ It did make a LOT of Captains PDQ though
 
UA444
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 6:39 am

Shuttle and TED did work for awhile from a profit stand point, but both fell victim to the economy. The dot.com burst in 2000 and 9/11 killed Shuttle and the great recession is what did TED in.
 
VgnAtl747
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 1:56 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 13):
BOS-SFO is a different animal - UA practically owns it, but it's also one of the hardest routes for elites to upgrade, so maybe the capacity offered is actually justified

RDU-SFO every time I'm on it has 50-60+ on the upgrade list; it's crazy! The first two zones are literally 75% of the aircraft.
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 8):
Basically DL is most immune to LCCs due to their selection of hubs

Alot of Deltas hubs are pretty immune from competition DTW, MSP, SLC they still call CVG a Hub. Hence why Delta makes so much money. Compare that to United hubs that all face fierce competition, I think Uniteds hub lineup is really tough all expensive hubs and fierce competition.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
Alot of Deltas hubs are pretty immune from competition DTW, MSP, SLC they still call CVG a Hub. Hence why Delta makes so much money. Compare that to United hubs that all face fierce competition, I think Uniteds hub lineup is really tough all expensive hubs and fierce competition.

For UA, SFO has token competition from VX, and WN/HOU isn't too much of a threat to IAH, and depending on whether you call it EWR or NYC, UA can strangely maintain a hub-captive environment in the most competitive aviation market in the US

Technically, MSP has Sun Country and DTW has some NK presence, but neither are truly threatening. DL has their fair share too - ATL has WN (which is shrinking there for no reason), SEA has a frenemy of AS, LAX is a multi-way mess, and LGA+JFK has AA/B6 (with UA across the river)
 
ldvaviation
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 19):
It could point out to those frequent fliers bosses that his/her employees were flying an airline that their company didn't have a contract with. It's something that gets missed on here a lot, yes there are those that get to pick which airlines they fly, but there are a lot more that are told which airline they fly due to company contracts....And trust me, UA fights tooth and nail for those contracts.

Large companies usually have more than one preferred carrier.

Even in cases where there is only one contract, employees are allowed to book other airlines if the flights are more convenient and lower in price.

There are reports on flyertalk that some large companies in the Washington DC area that used to have United as their only preferred carrier have had to enter into contracts with AA/US because United no longer serves as many destinations with the same amount of frequency from DCA in particular as former codeshare partner US.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 4:17 pm

United's labor unrest is doing more damage to the long-term profit potential than any competitor could ever do. For the life of me I can't understand why both sides have let this issue get drawn out and fester for so long.

Shareholder meeting is in 2 weeks...there should be more heads rolling than in Game of Thrones. (Union and management)
Every zoo is a petting zoo......if you're a man!
 
Tdan
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 4:34 pm

Oh they most definitely are going after UA. It's just not in the overt capacity increases that you are seeing with AS/DL. AA and DL are swapping yield with UA, particularly on the corporate side of the house. UA used to run a significant yield premium to the industry. That is gone completely domestically and is being erroded in traditional strongholds like Asia. They are also investing in the product and DL in particular is investing significantly in IT in order to get ahead of UA while they are down. Just because AA and DL arent plopping 10x daily service in EWR-BOS does not mean they aren't going after UA with everything they've got!
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
300CAP
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 20):
The Pilots wanted the shuttle and Ted done away with and mangement gave in. IMy guess irt was a pay issuw bcause shuttle and Ted were paid at 78/84 ths of Mainline salary and ascended before returnig to mainline/ It did make a LOT of Captains PDQ though

Actually, I believe that the pilot's enjoyed the Shuttle because the crews stayed together with the same airplane all day and as I recall everyone was back at their domicile at the end of the day. It is when management started to mix the crews and aircraft during the day that delays began for either a delayed crew or aircraft. This, I believe, was the end of the Shuttle. Basically terminal 8 in LAX was wall to wall people all day long and the Shuttle was booming. As for the Ted service...well, the premium passenger hated it because they could not get a first class seat or even an upgrade plus the Airbus's used in the Ted operation were replacing some larger aircraft such as the 757, 767 on routes such ORD-LAS ORD-PHX ORD-SFO ORD-LAX to name a few. Basically, Ted was a flawed business decision from the start.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):
Contrary to popular belief. All that Striking and Going after Stuff?? Is all in Your minds, on A.Net Because they know next to nothing about how an airline is actually Run.

Are you implying that you do know how to run an airline even though the rest of the A.net members do not? Where did you get all this knowledge, that we don't have??
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 27):
They are also investing in the product and DL in particular is investing significantly in IT in order to get ahead of UA while they are down.

invest in WHAT I.T. ? their online award calendar is still broken, and their mobile app isn't the state of the art either.

Quoting Tdan (Reply 27):
Just because AA and DL arent plopping 10x daily service in EWR-BOS does not mean they aren't going after UA with everything they've got!

I think one of them is doing like 15x daily LGA-BOS but using all RJs ... I think it's DL but need to confirm on it.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 25):

There are reports on flyertalk that some large companies in the Washington DC area that used to have United as their only preferred carrier have had to enter into contracts with AA/US because United no longer serves as many destinations with the same amount of frequency from DCA in particular as former codeshare partner US.

Those weren't truly UA's base to begin with. They're mostly flying US and accruing with UA.

How about DC corporations that used to be loyal to US and now find themselves served inadequately because their IAD transcon and international options are gone ? You think it's all a one-way street ?
 
Josh32121
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 24):
For UA, SFO has token competition from VX, and WN/HOU isn't too much of a threat to IAH, and depending on whether you call it EWR or NYC, UA can strangely maintain a hub-captive environment in the most competitive aviation market in the US

Technically, MSP has Sun Country and DTW has some NK presence, but neither are truly threatening. DL has their fair share too - ATL has WN (which is shrinking there for no reason), SEA has a frenemy of AS, LAX is a multi-way mess, and LGA+JFK has AA/B6 (with UA across the river)

All true, but you left out DEN, which has WN and F9 as formidable competition, and I think you're underestimating the competition WN provides at HOU vs. UA at IAH--especially considering HOU will have FIS before long as WN begins int'l flying. Certainly UA is very strong at IAH (in the Houston market), but WN's HOU presence absolutely puts pressure on UA the same way WN's DAL ops. put pressure on AA at DFW. And then there's ORD with AA's massive hub duking it out with UA in no small way.

I think we need to make a distinction between T-tail RJs and underwing-engined RJs. People always throw the E-170/175/190/195 in the RJ bucket even though almost everyone agrees they're a more comfortable flying experience than most of the T-tail RJs. (CRJ-700/900 is arguably comparable with the raised windows and lowered floor, but the fuselage diameter is still the same smaller diemnsion.) Flying E175s between LGA and ORD is hardly an equivalent downgrade to mainline as say BDL-IAH on an ERJ. UA's extensive RJ flying will be much improved once the E175s on order make their way into the system.
 
airbazar
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 6:38 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 21):
Shuttle and TED did work for awhile from a profit stand point, but both fell victim to the economy. The dot.com burst in 2000 and 9/11 killed Shuttle and the great recession is what did TED in.

I can't speak for Shuttle but the problem wth TED was that it was too expensive to compete with LCC's. TED was supposed to have been a LCC but it was never a subsidiary with low operating costs. Instead it was an airline within the airline, with identical costs to mainline so that's why it failed. It was operating under the same UA certificate, same planes, same crew, same costs.


Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 25):
Even in cases where there is only one contract, employees are allowed to book other airlines if the flights are more convenient and lower in price.

  
At my company just about every domestic carriers is a prefered carrier LOL Even WN.
We only have restrictions for International travel but even there we have the choice between OneWorld and SkyTeam. No star Alliance carriers. However, if I can find a "more convenient" flight outside of the 2 preferred alliances, I am allowed to book it.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 31):
Certainly UA is very strong at IAH (in the Houston market), but WN's HOU presence absolutely puts pressure on UA the same way WN's DAL ops. put pressure on AA at DFW. And then there's ORD with AA's massive hub duking it out with UA in no small way.

Competition at IAH-HOU and ORD-MDW has been long running, and I think all parties have found an equilibrium that works for them. F9 is somewhat retreating from DEN so that should relieve a bit of pressure for UA and WN.

If you look at WN's newly announced Mexican and Caribbean routes, a lot of them are purposely avoiding established routes (e.g. departing out of SNA and SAT). So the threat of HOU international ops is a bit overblown (unlike SMI/J's over-the-top reaction of "cancelling" IAH-AKL because of that)

On the other hand, there is massive expansion of WN at DAL, similar expansion of WN+B6 at DCA, and continued expansion of B6+NK at FLL, all of which will give AA some new-found competition/headache.
 
Boiler905
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 7:44 pm

I haven't read through every single response on here, but am I the only one who feels like UA is one of the most targeted competitors in the industry currently? Especially with F9's recent announcement in IAD.

F9 in DEN/IAD (and CLE but that doesn't really count since F9 didn't expand until after UA announced its pull down of the hub there). Granted, the IAD frequency set is not extensive, the number of initial destinations is.

WN in DEN and HOU. WN has added quite a few nonstop destinations to HOU in recent years (SNA, IND, LGA, BOS, CHS, GSP, PIT, SEA, PDX, PNS, MEM, CLT). You could even mention EWR here. Since UA gave WN slots, WN has added quite a bit of overlapping nonstop service considering their smaller slot portfolio (AUS, MSY, STL, BNA, HOU). Surprising WN never added Florida service from EWR though, seems like it would be low-hanging fruit for them.

Not to say other carriers aren't facing tough competition, but recently I feel like UA has been feeling the heat in their hubs just as much as any other airline.

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Josh32121
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RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 23):
Alot of Deltas hubs are pretty immune from competition DTW, MSP, SLC they still call CVG a Hub. Hence why Delta makes so much money. Compare that to United hubs that all face fierce competition, I think Uniteds hub lineup is really tough all expensive hubs and fierce competition.
Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 33):
Competition at IAH-HOU and ORD-MDW has been long running, and I think all parties have found an equilibrium that works for them. F9 is somewhat retreating from DEN so that should relieve a bit of pressure for UA and WN.

If you look at WN's newly announced Mexican and Caribbean routes, a lot of them are purposely avoiding established routes (e.g. departing out of SNA and SAT). So the threat of HOU international ops is a bit overblown (unlike SMI/J's over-the-top reaction of "cancelling" IAH-AKL because of that)

On the other hand, there is massive expansion of WN at DAL, similar expansion of WN+B6 at DCA, and continued expansion of B6+NK at FLL, all of which will give AA some new-found competition/headache.

Your first response was to the first comment, which I completely agree with, but your subsequent comments don't even acknowledge the fierce competition faces at all of its hubs except for IAD (if NYC and Houston are treated as single markets). Even UA's dominance at SFO is diluted by WN's presence at both SFO and OAK, VS at SFO, AA & DL's premium transcon service to JFK, and even AS.

DL commands massive market share with much less competition in DTW, MSP, and SLC, and its dominance on ATL (despite WN's presence) is arguably as strong as any of those airports.

I'm not trying to attack...just underscoring slcdeltardumd11's observations that DL is uniquely positioned with some massive hubs that face very little direct competition compared to AA and UA.

AA has MIA almost to itself (maybe slightly less so if FLL is lumped in there, although I wonder how much crossover there really is).
 
AA94
Posts: 723
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:37 am

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
At my company just about every domestic carriers is a prefered carrier LOL Even WN.
We only have restrictions for International travel but even there we have the choice between OneWorld and SkyTeam. No star Alliance carriers. However, if I can find a "more convenient" flight outside of the 2 preferred alliances, I am allowed to book it.

  

Same here. In my company's booking engine, flights matching the searched itinerary are assigned a "preference rating" of sorts that takes into account price, schedule, and corporate contracts, and essentially tells you which flights the company would prefer you to fly. I have ended up on WN a number of times as their flights were significantly cheaper than the closest competition, with a comparable schedule.
 
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kgaiflyer
Posts: 2741
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:22 am

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 8:16 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 6):
Why should AA and DL go after UA when others such as F9 (IAD, DEN), VX (SFO), and WN (DEN/LAX) are already going after UA? Let the others do the dirty work and pricing battles with UA.

Simply not A.net logic.

In A.net logic you blow every resource you've got to defeat the enemy - more like airline management was like a video game than Marketing 101.  
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 8:21 pm

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 35):
Even UA's dominance at SFO is diluted by WN's presence at both SFO and OAK, VS at SFO, AA & DL's premium transcon service to JFK, and even AS.

The wealthiest part of SF Bay area runs from SF city down the peninsular to San Jose, so in terms of geographic desirability of airports, the order is SFO > SJC > OAK. WN at OAK isn't all that threatening.

Regarding the premium transcon, I believe UA still has the most seats AND the most frequencies to JFK. At LAX obviously AA is way ahead.

Quoting Josh32121 (Reply 35):
DL commands massive market share with much less competition in DTW, MSP, and SLC, and its dominance on ATL (despite WN's presence) is arguably as strong as any of those airports.

I'm not disputing that at all, but dispelling the notion that UA's hubs are all being pummeled and bombarded the way DEN is.

UA's rather poor financial showing in Q1 isn't a function of the competition at hubs - it's mostly their own F ups. SMI/J needs to be expelled ASAP.
 
FSXJunkie
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:30 am

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 4):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 3):
The government would get involved if it looked like the big three would become the big two airlines.

The government has already decided. If anyone goes belly up, they go belly up.

But what happens to the assets and employees?

Most definitely a UA/DL or UA/AA is out of the question, but a hypothetically failed UA has to vent assets somewhere. And being such a large carrier, the government would have to be involved in parsing it out, AA and DL won't volunteer because they know the legal issues and smaller carriers don't have the capital to actively pursue majority of UA assets (and then there's business model conflict.)

So the government would have to be involved in the set up of a United 2.0 (perhaps breaking it into Ted 2.0, Continental 2.0, Texas International 2.0, etc.) and put the remaining 'fat' on auction. (otherwise there'll be thousands of unemployed dumped into constituencies, hundreds of perfect airframes left rusting, and dozens of terminals turned into vacant ghettos, threatening dozens of airport jobs.)
 
stratacruiser
Posts: 232
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:07 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 9:01 pm

The last round of consolidation has created an oligopoly in the US airline industry. The big three understand that they collectively do better limiting capacity and staying away from widespread price wars.

Dave
 
jayunited
Posts: 2269
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
UA is not performing as well but they're not some wounded animal either. It's not like other airlines will just be able to drive UA out of all these markets.
In the areas where UA shares hubs, I think we are seeing a bit of "going after UA" (though I'd argue it's just the other airlines competing and growing a bit and UA staying where they are or maybe shrinking a bit in some markets.)
Again, UA should be doing a lot better but they aren't dying or anything

A Delta guy defending UA I never thought I would see the day. But you are absolutely correct UA should be doing better but UA is not on the brink of collapse.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 15):
The competition has already pretty much beaten them when it comes to competing at their hubs. Downgauging SFO-MSP to UAX in October (though going twice daily), no mainline from ORD/IAD/DEN-ATL, UAX MSP-LAX, UAX DEN-DTW, hardly any mainline at SLC, CLT, DTW, dwindling at DFW and MIA and the list goes on and on.

It is easy to cherry pick certain route and say UA does not offer mainline service. Both both AA and DL do the same thing. ORD-SLC market is all RJ's on all the 3 of the legacies, looking at today's shcedule DL flies a mixture of mainline and RJ's on their DTW-DFW route and DTW-IAH is all RJ's with the exception of the last flight. If I wanted to I could go in a look up routes were both DL and AA are using RJ's on some pretty long flights so UA is not alone in that regard; although UA's usage of 50 seater RJ's is much higher that that of DL and AA. However the number of 50 seaters will start to dwindle as the E175's arrive.

No one can argue the fact that UA's financial performance in Q1 was terrible. However UA still has billions of dollars in cash and UA is no where near the brink of disaster (going belly up) despite what people on this website believe.

And as far as AA/US goes I applaud there Q1 results and I hope things continue to get better and its smooth sailing for the new AA. But it is far to early to compare AA to UA, reason being AA is just at the beginning stages of its merger. AA like UA and unlike DL is heavily unionized and although they (the unions) were promised certain things before this merger we have yet to see if those promises will be kept or broken. The new AA has yet to tackle the large merger issues like major aircraft redeployment on a large scale move lots of AA metal to US hubs while moving lots of US metal to AA hubs, contract negotiations (merging all the separate contracts from each employee group) That is when we will see what AA's and US's unions are made of especially the pilots and flight attendants unions. AA is making money now and it may seem like AA can just demolish UA based upon our Q1 results and other things but the jury is still out on the new AA. Employees at the combined AA may be on board now with this merger but that could change if promises made especially to legacy AA employees are broken when it contract talks come around, when the major aircraft redeployment begins and crews who are use to flying certain trips are now forced to work crazy trips because the airline has no other choice. Things could look a whole lot different at the new AA in the next year or two especially since there are unions involved in this merger.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3046
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Thu May 22, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 5):

DL and AA might Like to go after UA but with the new airplanes that UA is getting?

The new planes being 787s? I don't thinkk that is going to stem airlines from putting up competition.

Quoting johnberg (Reply 7):
I think DL would find them profitable. Look at markets like NYC, ATL, SLC, MSP, and DTW to CHI (ORD & MDW) where all three compete plus WN. Outside of NYC DL has the same if not more capacity and frequency. I don't think they would be at that level if it didn't make good business sense. ORD would be good feed for the Pacific/Australian flights from both LAX and SEA.

I believe that most of the domestic market is saturated enough and that it would be disastrous to the consumer if there were reduced competition on the routes that the OP mentioned. Further to this point is that AA is just probably working on assimilating itself after the merger and really doesn't need to take away its focus on the integration of US and AA right now. DL on the other hand already has a decent schedule to those markets and I don't see them introducing more flights to try to compete with UA on those specific routes.

You could really argue the reverse in that UA should look at adding capacity to the other airlines' hub routes and see what they could do.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 30):
Those weren't truly UA's base to begin with. They're mostly flying US and accruing with UA.

How about DC corporations that used to be loyal to US and now find themselves served inadequately because their IAD transcon and international options are gone ? You think it's all a one-way street ?

There have been almost no reports to that effect on flyertalk. Maybe, it is a one-way street. Or, maybe most of the business traffic out of DC is domestic?

More to the point, doesn't AA have a better business case to make now to DC-area companies? It has the better domestic network --- more destinations, more mainline, preferred airport. Through its JV partner BA, it flies IAD-LHR. With one stop, it can duplicate all the secondary international destinations UA serves out of IAD. There is battle brewing between these two in the DC-area and it will most likely be fought behind the scenes.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 43):

What more destinations ? I'm pretty sure UA / IAD flies to more places than AA / DCA even domestically

If you're starting to count one stops UA can even put you on DCA-SFO-CTU or IAD-LAX-MEL that is instrument upgradable the entire way
 
freakyrat
Posts: 1742
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 1:41 am

AA/US is presently trying to digest their merger and also starting to fill in midwest markets with service to CLT and PHL. this is something that US wanted to do (Returning to the midwest) but didn't have the planes or synergies to do it, now they do.

DL is in the process of retiring the 50-seaters and bringing in 2 class Regional jets and B717 aircraft on line replacing the 50 seat CRJ's on routes with these aircraft.

[Edited 2014-05-22 18:46:20]
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1860
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 4:08 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 12):
UA has about 150 737-9 and 9 MAXes coming online as well as 70 EMB-175s going to UAX

Big deal. They are retiring aircraft as fast as those new ones arrive and calling it "capacity discipline".

I hope someone at UA is taking note of the latest Census figures for the City of Houston. I know Southwest is.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 21):
Shuttle and TED did work for awhile from a profit stand point, but both fell victim to the economy. The dot.com burst in 2000 and 9/11 killed Shuttle and the great recession is what did TED in.

And DL's Song experiment failed along similar lines as well. Granted, some elements from the Song "experience" made into DL mainline while I can't speak for the same from Ted, but yeah UA is certainly not the first carrier to have a sub-brand fail.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 43):

I think you hit the nail on the head -- "new AA" is now a very strong competitor in the DC market. Before, UA had their international gateway at IAD + connect you DCA-ORD-xxx + beyond perimeter IAD-wherever business, and US had all the within-perimeter stuff locked up at DCA. AA had LAX from IAD but that's about it.

Now, they have the DCA hublet inherited from US, plus as you mention excellent Transatlantic connectivity on BA via LHR, plus whatever QR to DOH gives them beyond that. So yes a very good offering both domestic AND international now that should be quite competitive.

The one constant that won't change (much) though is the qualitatively different nature of their respective markets in DC. IAD has numerous competitive disadvantages overall, but UA also probably likes having that international gateway with the "capital to capital" strategy plus their solid West Coast business. OTOH, the new AA's slot portfolio at DCA is excellent for within perimeter and for the exemptions they have at DCA, but they lack that long-haul presence UA does. So for me the real battle comes down to:

1) DCA-ORD/NYC/Texas-xxx connecting pax (those for whom the competing hubs offer reasonably equivalent options

2) DCA-NYC-international pax who prefer connecting at JFK or EWR instead of trucking out to IAD

I'd say both are fairly well positioned to capture those respective flows.
 
Beardown91737
Posts: 892
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:56 pm

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 5:14 am

First priority for AAL is to make their merger look more like DL/NW and less like NW/CO. That would preclude picking any fights with a carrier that wants ORD all to themselves.

DL on the other hand, has started going after UA (and AA and AS) at LAX and SEA. Starting SFO doesn't make a lot of sense. DL does well in the midwest with MSP and DTW. ORD would be a natural move due to population and business traffic, but anything at ORD would have to allow money making at DTW and MSP to continue. Also when you deal with ORD you are dealing with the City of Chicago. It may be easier to deal with the authorities at MSP and DTW. I'm not sure how the weather delays compare, but in Chicago, it seemed like we had worse weather delays than the rest of the midwest, which were compounded by ineptitude (according to the media) at snow removal.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
traindoc
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:35 am

RE: Why Aren't US Airlines Going After UA?

Fri May 23, 2014 1:07 pm

I guess what really matters is whether or not people like me continue to fly UA. I am both a Million Miler and 1K. As they say "money walks and BS talks." My money will keep flying UA.

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