New Terminal Planned For CLT

washingtonflyer · Fri May 23, 2014 11:41 am

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...art-new-domestic.html#.U38ohPldVQF

Charlotte Douglas International Airport plans to start work on a new concourse next spring, with eight to 12 domestic gates – not a separate international terminal the airport had previously considered.

G500 · Fri May 23, 2014 12:07 pm

Charlotte is sandwhiched between PHL, DCA and MIA. I still don't believe AA/US is going to maintain CLT as a hub forvever.

My guess, in a couple of years they'll start escaling back CLT

washingtonflyer · Fri May 23, 2014 12:16 pm

Nearly 650 miles between CLT and MIA. Totally different service areas.

Flaps · Fri May 23, 2014 12:25 pm

CLT would be very wise to watch carefully what they spend and how they allocate those costs. CLT has a number of things going for it but as soon as the per passenger costs start going up those advantages lose their value quickly. In an airline that size with that many hubs CLT does become vulnerable. A smart move to only expand incrementally lest they end up like PIT.

Polot · Fri May 23, 2014 12:29 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
Charlotte is sandwhiched between PHL, DCA and MIA. I still don't believe AA/US is going to maintain CLT as a hub forvever.

My guess, in a couple of years they'll start escaling back CLT

CLT will always be a hub. Out of all the ones you mentioned, CLT is the best to serve the Southeast. PHL is too far north, MIA too far south, DCA too far north and slot constrained.

Anyways this is probably smart on the airport's part. With the AA merger it is likely that a CLT's intercontinental flights are going to be trimmed some (I believe they already have). Probably best to see how things shake out before committing to a new international terminal.

AVLAirlineFreq · Fri May 23, 2014 12:31 pm

As long as it means not simply adding on to E Concourse, I'm for it.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
Charlotte is sandwhiched between PHL, DCA and MIA. I still don't believe AA/US is going to maintain CLT as a hub forvever.

My guess, in a couple of years they'll start escaling back CLT

Hey, how 'bout that? It only took one reply for this to devolve into another "CLT is going to be dehubbed" thread.

MaverickM11 · Fri May 23, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Thread starter):
Charlotte Douglas International Airport plans to start work on a new concourse next spring, with eight to 12 domestic gates – not a separate international terminal the airport had previously considered.

I'm still not clear how CLT needs more infrastructure in an environment where AA's costs are higher than US', and US' fare structure is out the door. Wouldn't they be lucky to hold on to what they have, let alone grow?

airbazar · Fri May 23, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
Charlotte is sandwhiched between PHL, DCA and MIA. I still don't believe AA/US is going to maintain CLT as a hub forvever.

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
CLT will always be a hub. Out of all the ones you mentioned, CLT is the best to serve the Southeast. PHL is too far north, MIA too far south, DCA too far north and slot constrained.

Besides geography, CLT and MIA are the only 2 AA hubs in the entire Eastern seaboard that can grow. Even if PHL gets its new runways, the airspace is still congested and the real source of its limitations. JFK and DCA, are also severely limited. CLT will be AA's best defense against ATL and IAD.

Cubsrule · Fri May 23, 2014 12:56 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):
I'm still not clear how CLT needs more infrastructure in an environment where AA's costs are higher than US', and US' fare structure is out the door. Wouldn't they be lucky to hold on to what they have, let alone grow?

I don't necessarily disagree, but CLT needed more gates yesterday, and this is incremental growth, not the second coming of PIT.

DashTrash · Fri May 23, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
CLT will always be a hub. Out of all the ones you mentioned, CLT is the best to serve the Southeast.

Bingo. Without CLT the entire Southeast belongs to Delta.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
I don't necessarily disagree, but CLT needed more gates yesterday

More like 10 years ago. I've always hoped they'd start over. A, B, and C Concourses suck.

william · Fri May 23, 2014 1:17 pm

Looking at Google maps, is Charlotte getting a new parking garage next to the terminal? Did they raze the old one?

Ryefly · Fri May 23, 2014 3:53 pm

Looking at Google maps, is Charlotte getting a new parking garage next to the terminal? Did they raze the old one?

Yes,

They Demolished the old hourly parking garages and are building much bigger garages that will house all the rental car companies as well as new hourly spots.

The new terminal discussed here will go where the rental car lots are located.

[Edited 2014-05-23 08:54:13]

JetBlueCLT · Fri May 23, 2014 4:24 pm

CLT is going to thrive... 5 years from now I can't wait to say, I told you so to all those CLT naysayers.

The O/D might not be as large as some of the other big cities, but if you look at the data, CLT is thriving city that is growing like crazy with more and more business relocating here or expanding CLT.

If the new American gave up the southeast to delta it would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

jeffh747 · Fri May 23, 2014 4:45 pm

CLT isn't leaving the AA network. As previously mentioned, CLT is AA's last defense against the monsters in ATL and IAD. With MIA being too far south and being used mainly for LatAm destinations, and PHL being too far north and a secondary to NYC, CLT sits right in the middle and is too big of an opportunity for AA to slip up on.

D L X · Fri May 23, 2014 4:58 pm

There is still plenty of growth potential for CLT, and it's beyond time that its airport gets expanded.

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
Charlotte is sandwhiched between PHL, DCA and MIA.

You have to realize, CLT is closer to ORD than it is to MIA, and no one would ever cite CLT's proximity to ORD as a reason to dump it. There is PLENTY of room for CLT as a hub in that big a gap.

CLT-DCA - 331 mi
CLT-PHL - 449 mi
CLT-JFK - 541 mi
CLT-ORD - 599 mi
CLT-MIA - 650 mi
CLT-DFW - 936 mi
CLT-PHX - 1773 mi
CLT-LAX - 2125 mi

MAH4546 · Fri May 23, 2014 5:12 pm

CLT officials have obviously been given the message, probably directly from AA, that international growth is not coming anytime soon.

I've been hearing a lot about MIAFCO maybe being announced next month. That would mean bye-bye CLTFCO.

justplanenutz · Fri May 23, 2014 5:30 pm

Given that these are domestic gates, I am surprised they are building an entirely new concourse rather the expanding B as previously planned.

Are they going to build the new landside component of the international terminal too? And the connector? That is a going to be a massive hike from the high-E gates to these.

americanairdfw · Fri May 23, 2014 5:51 pm

I dont think that charlotte will turn in to a big place as far as international destinations go but i do belive that with AA and US merging CLT will be a big domestic hub in the network

Ryefly · Fri May 23, 2014 5:54 pm

Im flying CLT-BCN and returning from FCO to CLT next May. If the flights are non-stop on AA that would be great, but if they are not I will likely book Delta thru ATL vs dealing with the northeast delays or flying way out of the way to Miami in order to connect. I bet Delta is banking that most people in the south will end up doing the same thing if AA cut's international service from CLT. AA's loss is Delta's gain.

MAH4546 · Fri May 23, 2014 6:12 pm

Quoting Ryefly (Reply 18):
Im flying CLT-BCN and returning from FCO to CLT next May. If the flights are non-stop on AA that would be great, but if they are not I will likely book Delta thru ATL vs dealing with the northeast delays or flying way out of the way to Miami in order to connect.

Northeast weather delays in May? Not really. If you mean just general delays, then they might be more delay prone, but nothing serious.

And during the winter and summer shoulder months, many of these routes aren't served out of Atlanta, so you have to connect in the Northeast or Miami regardless. ATL-BCN is only flown between May and September.

[Edited 2014-05-23 11:15:45]

[Edited 2014-05-23 11:16:20]

David_itl · Fri May 23, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 15):
CLT officials have obviously been given the message, probably directly from AA, that international growth is not coming anytime soon.

Some blurb on the launch of the CLT-MAN service today

Business Desk article.

"Clive Cook American Airlines’ MD of Airports UK & Ireland said that for the airline Manchester has an equal standing to European capital cities such as Rome and Madrid. There's a lot of confidence about Manchester - its up there with big capital cities. We are pretty confident we can be successful with the Charlotte route - it is a major hub for the airline.The route will begin as a seasonal, but if there's demand, we'll look at the potential for a year round service.""

Manchester Evening News

Clive Cook, American Airlines’ MD for UK and Ireland, told the M.E.N: “Manchester has been a hugely important city for American Airlines for many years and we are thrilled to add this flight to Charlotte, “This flight is a very important step for us. I will bring in around 200 passengers every day. Next year, we hope to run them for longer. In terms of American Airlines, we have a massive presence in the US and Charlotte is our second biggest hub."

So CLT-MAN seems to be sticking around for a bit longer than people would expect. Odd for a secondary European city to have 4 daily services from a major carrier. The latter article also says that most passengers on the route will be coming from the States.

USAirALB · Fri May 23, 2014 7:40 pm

Regardless of what happens, something DOES need to be done regarding gate space for International flights at CLT.

Today's TATL has several flights departing from Domestic Concourse B. These gates were not designed for international flights, and there is no waiting room around any of the gates, as they were designed for 737s/A32Xs.

-US730 (LHR): B13
-US704 (FRA): B9
-US706 (FRA): B9
-US786 (CDG): D11
-US724 (DUB): D5
-US748 (MAD): B12
-US746 (MAN): D13
-US744(BCN): D9
-US760(LIS): D2

LH always uses D12.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri May 23, 2014 8:07 pm

Will CLT remain a hub.....i think absolutely. Will it be as large as it is now? I think there is room to right size most hubs. AA wants to maximize its profits so there is gonna be some overlap. CLT is a very efficient and profitable hub you bet AA is gonna want to connect people thru there. I think United has taught the industry that high cost hubs are horrific for connecting people and trying to make money.

MAH4546 · Fri May 23, 2014 8:13 pm

Quoting david_itl (Reply 20):
So CLT-MAN seems to be sticking around for a bit longer than people would expect. Odd for a secondary European city to have 4 daily services from a major carrier. The latter article also says that most passengers on the route will be coming from the States.

You are reading way too much into PR fluff.

What else do you expect them to say?

[Edited 2014-05-23 13:18:57]

freakyrat · Fri May 23, 2014 8:13 pm

CLT will remain a hub. US is starting to return to the interior midwest with service to CLT and I'll bet that is going to increase.

PITrules · Fri May 23, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 16):
Given that these are domestic gates, I am surprised they are building an entirely new concourse rather the expanding B as previously planned.

I'm wondering the same thing. The concrete ramp is already laid and it would be much easier for connections.

ExL10Mktg · Fri May 23, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
You have to realize, CLT is closer to ORD than it is to MIA, and no one would ever cite CLT's proximity to ORD as a reason to dump it. There is PLENTY of room for CLT as a hub in that big a gap.

Actually if you look at the map, CLT is an ideal north-south hub for domestic traffic from everywhere east of Chicago and Dallas but not much more (although that is a significant amount of traffic.)

Outside of local traffic, it's no more convenient for international travel than connecting via DFW, ORD, PHL or JFK for Europe or DFW/MIA for points south, depending of course on the departure point. Possibly fewer delays or a more agreeable transit point but not strategically any better than the other hubs. To Europe from west of the Mississippi, DFW and ORD connections would make for shorter travel time, and coming from the South it's just as easy to fly to PHL or JFK as it is to CLT. To the Caribbean and Latin America, DFW or MIA actually make more sense than CLT from almost anywhere.

Again, I'm taking delays or congestion out of the equation, just looking at logistics and I'm not saying CLT will or should be downsized but as part of a combined system it's importance has to be reevaluated given the other options now available.

apodino · Fri May 23, 2014 9:06 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 21):
Regardless of what happens, something DOES need to be done regarding gate space for International flights at CLT.

Today's TATL has several flights departing from Domestic Concourse B. These gates were not designed for international flights, and there is no waiting room around any of the gates, as they were designed for 737s/A32Xs.

Part of the problem is that about the same time that these flights to Europe depart, you also get a bank of arrivals from the Caribbean and Latin America, which are flights that need to use the D gates for FIS purposes. With the D gates occupied by these and a few International Departures (Not to mention B6, who I think should be moved to A after AA stops operating out of there), there really is no where else to put these flights.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 25):
Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 16):
Given that these are domestic gates, I am surprised they are building an entirely new concourse rather the expanding B as previously planned.

I'm wondering the same thing. The concrete ramp is already laid and it would be much easier for connections.

Part of the problem is if you extend the B concourse out too far, as busy as the CLT ramp gets with planes taxiing, you would take up some of that space taxiing, which already is at a premium, and all you would do would be create more bottlenecks. Look what happened at the E gates after they expanded those?

AVLAirlineFreq · Fri May 23, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 27):
Part of the problem is if you extend the B concourse out too far, as busy as the CLT ramp gets with planes taxiing, you would take up some of that space taxiing, which already is at a premium, and all you would do would be create more bottlenecks. Look what happened at the E gates after they expanded those?

Has there been any more discussion of eliminating runway 5/23 and building another parallel runway, thereby freeing more space for taxing in that area?

DLPMMM · Fri May 23, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting ExL10Mktg (Reply 26):

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you about JFK, EWR, and PHL being just as acceptable for connections as CLT for most of the Southeast.

I live in the Southeast (but not the CLT area) and travel internationally 5-6 times per year. (AA Exp and was also DL Diamond until this year)

PHL, JFK, and EWR I avoid like the plague whenever possible...which is usually.

The bags miss connections too regularly, baggage claim is slower than sin, delays are terrible, and lines and CBP are way too long.

It is also nicer to have an 8 hour flight to Europe and get some sleep, than a 2 hour+ flight to the northeast, then only have 6 hours to Europe and the associated jet lag.

DeltaXNA · Fri May 23, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 1):
I still don't believe AA/US is going to maintain CLT as a hub forvever.

My guess, in a couple of years they'll start escaling back CLT

CLT is probably the 2nd most important hub in the new AA network. DFW being first. MIA, PHL, ORD, PHX being the other ones in no particular order. Why would Charlotte be scaled back. The population is the smallest among all the other hubs, but it has a good economy, lots of financial, and it serves a region no other AA hub can serve as well...the southeast.

[Edited 2014-05-23 15:41:18]

DCA could serve the southeast, but not nearly as many flights as CLT.

[Edited 2014-05-23 15:42:08]

ozark1 · Sat May 24, 2014 1:14 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
CLT will always be a hub

Agree completely! If I were a US employee I would be much more concerned about the future of PHX than of CLT.

ExL10Mktg · Sat May 24, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 29):

Quoting ExL10Mktg (Reply 26):

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you about JFK, EWR, and PHL being just as acceptable for connections as CLT for most of the Southeast.

I live in the Southeast (but not the CLT area) and travel internationally 5-6 times per year. (AA Exp and was also DL Diamond until this year)

PHL, JFK, and EWR I avoid like the plague whenever possible...which is usually.

The bags miss connections too regularly, baggage claim is slower than sin, delays are terrible, and lines and CBP are way too long.

It is also nicer to have an 8 hour flight to Europe and get some sleep, than a 2 hour+ flight to the northeast, then only have 6 hours to Europe and the associated jet lag.

I don't disagree that the connection experience may be better in CLT but my caveat was that delays and congestion were removed from the analysis, which is strictly logistical.

And BTW, the flight time to LHR from CLT is only 45 min more than from PHL and only 30 min more than from JFK so your point about sleep time isn't really correct. I personally think all departures to Europe leave way too early and return too early, particularly if you want to sleep. I can't fall asleep at 7 or 8 PM especially on an airplane. Typical arrival times across the pond are about when I would normally go to bed at home. And on the return leg, last time I had to get up at 5:30 to get "the" flight home at 10 AM.

At the end of the day, the total travel time from the South to Europe should be about the same regardless of the hub (CLT or the other two) depending on how close the connection times are and that's really all most people look at. A seasoned/frequent traveler will have various preferences as you do. Would the elimination of CLT drive you back to DL -- who's to say. ATL is no picnic for baggage or delays either! If AA's analysis shows that the CLT traffic is largely at DL's expense then they would be crazy to reduce service (and keep travelers like you happy.) If the analysis shows that the traffic theirs to keep, then it should be open for discussion. The only thing I know for sure is that neither you, nor I nor anyone on a.net knows how it will shake out!

Cubsrule · Sat May 24, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting ExL10Mktg (Reply 32):
At the end of the day, the total travel time from the South to Europe should be about the same regardless of the hub (CLT or the other two) depending on how close the connection times are and that's really all most people look at.

Not really. Because of the airfield congestion at PHL, EWR and (particularly) EWR, there's a lot of schedule pad at those places. Being number 47 for takeoff at JFK and taxiing for an hour doesn't really let me (or most folks) sleep for that hour. The nice thing about ATL and CLT is that, compared to the block time, you spend a lot more time in the air. A bad line for takeoff at either of those places--even during the late afternoon rush--is 8 or 10 aircraft. Not so further north.

CV880 · Sat May 24, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 16):
Given that these are domestic gates, I am surprised they are building an entirely new concourse rather the expanding B as previously planned.

Are they going to build the new landside component of the international terminal too? And the connector? That is a going to be a massive hike from the high-E gates to these.

Move the non-AA carriers to the new concourse & let AA use what it needs in the A concourse. I doubt that there will be few, if any, connex from the OAL's to AA. The new concourse would need road access.

ExL10Mktg · Sat May 24, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
Not really. Because of the airfield congestion at PHL, EWR and (particularly) EWR

EWR doesn't even come into the discussion. It's not an AA gateway.

JFK is my home airport and unless there's weather (which can happen anywhere) the taxi/hold time is usually pretty reasonable. In my own experience it's fairly rare for it to get to even 10 aircraft ahead of mine. Of course there can be exceptions or maybe there's one window that's really bad that I haven't experienced, but as a rule JFK moves pretty well. In any case, the difference in actual flight time is less than an hour from either PHL or JFK vs CLT. While more sleep is better than less, that difference shouldn't be a deal breaker for most people, even if it is for you (which is fine -- we all have different priorities!)

Cubsrule · Sat May 24, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting ExL10Mktg (Reply 35):
In any case, the difference in actual flight time is less than an hour from either PHL or JFK vs CLT. While more sleep is better than less, that difference shouldn't be a deal breaker for most people, even if it is for you (which is fine -- we all have different priorities!)

No, I think I'm in your "more people." I'd rather sleep more, but other things--like not being on a 50-seater, not dealing with horrendous delays, and better FIS experience--are more important. Of course, two of those three things heavily favor the southern hubs for most passengers in the southeast.

washingtonflyer · Sat May 24, 2014 11:11 pm

Being in DC its usually more intuitive to fly out of PHL on a EU bound T/A flight. But I've done CLT connections in the past owing to what I see to be typically better FIS handling and better connections (I also get about 500 more miles per segment which doesn't hurt).

One other advantage is that for one of my home airports, there is no IAD-PHL service on US which suck balls.

ckfred · Sun May 25, 2014 9:16 pm

UA and AA have a fair amount of flying to cities in the Southeast out of ORD. Often, though, friends of mine flying to smaller cities in the Southeast either take DL and connect in ATL or US and connect in CLT. I've always thought that AA has been at a disadvantage, in terms of flying in the Southeast, since it closed RDU and BNA. MIA is fine for connecting to other points in Florida. DFW is fine for connecting to the Southeast from points west or within Texas. But, no PMAA hub is really a good connecting hub for traffic from the Great Lakes region or the Northeast.

Over time, there will be shuffling of traffic between all of the hubs. But, on paper, CLT still offers easier connections within the Southeast than DFW, ORD, DCA, LGA, and MIA.

CLT even gives more options when flying to Florida. AA flying out of ORD to Florida (except MIA) tends to be limited. If the choice is an inconvenient non-stop, going through MIA or DFW, or a connection at CLT, I'll take the connection at CLT.

jfklganyc · Tue May 27, 2014 12:33 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
Not really. Because of the airfield congestion at PHL, EWR and (particularly) EWR, there's a lot of schedule pad at those places. Being number 47 for takeoff at JFK and taxiing for an hour doesn't really let me (or most folks) sleep for that hour. The nice thing about ATL and CLT is that, compared to the block time, you spend a lot more time in the air. A bad line for takeoff at either of those places--even during the late afternoon rush--is 8 or 10 aircraft. Not so further north.

I always laugh over statements that discuss the lack of airfield congestion in CLT.

In 10 years of flying, CLT has one of the MOST congested and dangerous ramps in the United States.

It is an accident waiting to happen.

On a time stand point, it is not unusual to spend 10 to 15 minutes navigating that ramp on the way in or out.

Fixing this (by shutting 5/23) should be an absolute priority!!

Cubsrule · Tue May 27, 2014 12:37 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 39):
I always laugh over statements that discuss the lack of airfield congestion in CLT.

E has horrendous airfield congestion. B, C and D--the areas in play for the flights we are discussing--are typically just fine.

jfklganyc · Tue May 27, 2014 12:47 pm

The dual taxi lanes around the whole complex are a twisty congested mess.

Planes come and go on two different frequencies...so you as a pilot have no idea what outbound aircraft are doing when you're inbound and vice versa. But you are crossing paths with that traffic. And if you think ramp controllers there "have this" and you should feel comfortable in their hands like you would ATC...you are wrong. Wild west comes to the south.

If, for some unfortunate reason, you need to go to D or E...you have to cut through the lower ramp on one frequency to the north hold line. That is the single lane alley for traffic in and out of the north ramp. Not unusual to come nose to nose with aircraft there. Then the north ramp fun begins!

Cubsrule · Tue May 27, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 41):
If, for some unfortunate reason, you need to go to D or E...you have to cut through the lower ramp on one frequency to the north hold line. That is the single lane alley for traffic in and out of the north ramp. Not unusual to come nose to nose with aircraft there. Then the north ramp fun begins!

Right, but again, that's completely irrelevant to the TATL flights we are discussing here, none of which use the north ramp.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net