C010T3
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TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 2:25 pm

The rumours that TAM's new route to YYZ would be through JFK have been confirmed. TAM is scheduled to start a new daily frequency to JFK with a 767 in August. The same flight shall be extended to YYZ in November.

Considering that LAN already operated JFK-YYZ in the past, this could be considered a service resumption.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 2:39 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
Considering that LAN already operated JFK-YYZ in the past, this could be considered a service resumption.

What's the point? Just route the passengers on AA via JFK or MIA; it'll cost less.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
WA707atMSP
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
The rumours that TAM's new route to YYZ would be through JFK have been confirmed. TAM is scheduled to start a new daily frequency to JFK with a 767 in August. The same flight shall be extended to YYZ in November.

Considering that LAN already operated JFK-YYZ in the past, this could be considered a service resumption.

Will TAM have fifth freedom rights on JFK-YYZ?

Until about twenty years ago, many airlines flew US-Canada routes as extensions of routes to / from Europe, Asia, or South America. Now that PAL has dropped LAS-YVR, and RJ has dropped DTW-YUL, I can't think of any remaining transborder fifth freedom routes.
 
airbazar
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):

What's the point? Just route the passengers on AA via JFK or MIA; it'll cost less.

I suspect that the service on TAM will be standard international quality for both hard and soft, which is better than AA's domestic product. Same reason why QF operates LAX-JFK except in this case, TAM will likely have 5th freedom between the 2 cities.
 
jacobchoi
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 2):
I can't think of any remaining transborder fifth freedom routes.

CX YVR-JFK
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 3):
I suspect that the service on TAM will be standard international quality for both hard and soft, which is better than AA's domestic product.

Do you realize how close JFK and YYZ are? Its 366 miles anyone can sit in a CRJ-700 first class literally across NY state.
 
upwardfacing
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 7:02 pm

Would there not be US border control implications for such a routing? And, potentially visa requirements?

The CX example is via Canada to the USA, this one does the opposite.
 
behramjee
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 8:08 pm

I've flown Lan Chile twice JFK-YYZ-JFK and I paid at the gate $125 to upgrade myself from Y to J class on board their B763ER. It was a really nice flight and top notch cabin crew service. However, TAM should have learnt from LAN's previous mistake with such a route structure + if it feels that it cannot sustain a JFK terminator flight by itself then there are bigger issues !
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
However, TAM should have learnt from LAN's previous mistake with such a route structure + if it feels that it cannot sustain a JFK terminator flight by itself then there are bigger issues !

I think it's more like adding capacity to both JFK, which has proven to be a very successful station, and Toronto, which they feel cannot support it's own nonstop (or at least will be more profitable when routed through JFK).
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
pierrelav
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 9:41 pm

A very unpractical decision. Latin American passengers will need both US and CDN visas to fly to YYZ.
 
Rafabozzolla
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
if it feels that it cannot sustain a JFK terminator flight by itself then there are bigger issues !

It's an additional JFK flight if I understand it correctly. The second daily.
 
a318
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 10:01 pm

Didn't TAM have a very limited window to begin these flights to YYZ? Perhaps this is just an interm solution until they have extra aircraft that can support the new route?
 
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N62NA
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sat May 24, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 5):

Do you realize how close JFK and YYZ are? Its 366 miles anyone can sit in a CRJ-700 first class literally across NY state.

Yes, but you overlook the additional hour sitting on the plane at JFK waiting in line for take off, so we're not just talking 60 minutes spent on the plane - it's probably closer to 2 to 2 1/2 hours.  
 
Viscount724
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 12:51 am

The costs of operating the tag-on sectors JFK-YYZ-JFK will probably kill any chance of a profitable operation. That's no doubt why LA dropped their similar JFK-YYZ tag-on service a few years ago. Also means extra crew costs and the additional shorthaul sectors means a lot of wear and tear on a widebody.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 12:52 am

I would always take LANs JFK-YYZ service. Very affordable with great service for the short trip. Any idea when tickets will go sale for JFK-YYZ portion?
 
YYZAMS
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 1:56 am

I wonder if AC flight that goes YYZ-SCL-EZE has anything to do with this?

Quoting jacobchoi (Reply 4):
LY did TLV-LAX-TLV


Seems LAN likes the tag ons..Like SCL-AKL-SYD

[Edited 2014-05-24 18:58:09]

[Edited 2014-05-24 19:03:09]
 
Viscount724
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 15):
I wonder if AC flight that goes YYZ-SCL-EZE has anything to do with this?

Can't see how that would have any relationship. AC and predecessor CP have been operating 5th freedom service SCL-EZE since the mid-1950's.
 
SCL767
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 4:46 am

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
Considering that LAN already operated JFK-YYZ in the past, this could be considered a service resumption.

Good to know that YYZ is back in our network (AA's commuter connections to/from YYZ via JFK are very unappealing to LA/JJ customers). Important to note that LATAM will soon offer pax two daily overnight flights on both the GRU-JFK and JFK-GRU sectors. Also glad that LAN recently resumed operations on the SCL-ASU route and will soon launch ASU-LIM as PZ will soon become LAN!
 
ORDTLV2414
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 5:23 am

seems like a waste of a perfectly good slot, I think a codeshare with AA is more economically profitable. TAM could sell this slot to AA,DL,LY,Emirates etc.. for major mullah.
 
SCL767
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 5:30 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 18):
seems like a waste of a perfectly good slot, I think a codeshare with AA is more economically profitable.

Look at the connection times that AA offers LATAM's pax traveling to/from YYZ via JFK. By reintegrating YYZ via JFK into our joint network it will only increase LATAM's revenue generated from that station.

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 18):
TAM could sell this slot to AA,DL,LY,Emirates etc.. for major mullah.

Um LATAM does't own any slots at JFK...
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 6:07 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 2):
Will TAM have fifth freedom rights on JFK-YYZ?

Yes, most definitely.

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 6):
Would there not be US border control implications for such a routing? And, potentially visa requirements?

Yes, for which I guess TAM considered not to be an impediment.

Quoting a318 (Reply 11):
Didn't TAM have a very limited window to begin these flights to YYZ?

Yes and no. When frequencies are allocated, they must be operated within 6 months or otherwise they would go dormant. A new application is then necessary, but it's just paperwork really, since Brazil and Canada enjoy open skies.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The costs of operating the tag-on sectors JFK-YYZ-JFK will probably kill any chance of a profitable operation.

Not mention having AC as a competitor that is also expanding.
 
SCL767
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):

Quoting upwardfacing (Reply 6):
Would there not be US border control implications for such a routing? And, potentially visa requirements?

Yes, for which I guess TAM considered not to be an impediment.

Especially for the cargo coming off LAN operated flights from SCL and LIM at JFK bound for YYZ. Also it is an appealing option for Chilean citizens traveling to/from YYZ since Chile is the only country in Latin America that is part of the U.S. VWP.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
Not mention having AC as a competitor that is also expanding.

Meanwhile AC will soon reduce capacity on the YYZ-GRU route...
 
ORDTLV2414
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Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 6:27 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 19):
Um LATAM does't own any slots at JFK...

if they don't own any slots than how do they fly there???? last time I checked JFK is slot controlled. do they rent them from AA???
 
C010T3
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 6:33 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Meanwhile AC will soon reduce capacity on the YYZ-GRU route...

And shift it to GIG. The seat offer will see an increase considering both stations.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 6:42 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):
Yes, but you overlook the additional hour sitting on the plane at JFK waiting in line for take off, so we're not just talking 60 minutes spent on the plane - it's probably closer to 2 to 2 1/2 hours.  

You can't use the recline or flat bed waiting to takeoff or when the plane is making its final descent so whats the difference when you cant recline and the flight is too short for a meal service. These premium passengers are much more likely to see the delay in the terminal than in those international seats anyway. As someone who flies EWR-YUL/YYZ frequently there is not that much time at full cruising altitude its literally a hop for a jet plane.
 
SCL767
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting ORDTLV2414 (Reply 22):
if they don't own any slots than how do they fly there???? last time I checked JFK is slot controlled. do they rent them from AA???

They apply for new slots just like other carriers at JFK.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 23):
And shift it to GIG. The seat offer will see an increase considering both stations.

No doubt. Regardless LATAM will benefit from AC's decision to decrease capacity into GRU (perhaps that's why LATAM decided to let the TAM unit operate into YYZ instead of LAN); in favor of launching thrice weekly flights into GIG, (besides for GRU pax connecting to/from Asia via AC has lost its appeal considering better options offered by EK, EY, QR, TK, etc. at GRU). Considering that LATAM has relegated GIG to a "focus city" instead of as a hub and GIG aspires to become a gateway comparable to certain hubs in Asia, GIG needs all the new international services that it can get as other carriers continue to add capacity and frequencies in GRU.

[Edited 2014-05-25 00:06:07]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 1:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 3):
I suspect that the service on TAM will be standard international quality for both hard and soft, which is better than AA's domestic product
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
(AA's commuter connections to/from YYZ via JFK are very unappealing to LA/JJ customers)

You must be joking. JJ/LA's regional narrowbody product is just as bad as AA's RJ hop to YYZ, if not worse. In fact AA's CR7s have more pitch in Y and actually have separate F seats.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):
Especially for the cargo coming off LAN operated flights from SCL and LIM at JFK bound for YYZ.

Trucking it would be cheaper. LA didn't uplift very much cargo on JFKYYZ the first time around. Plus will the JJ operation be on a 763 also or on a larger aircraft? The economics just don't make any sense from any angle.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
flyguy1
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 17):
Good to know that YYZ is back in our network (AA's commuter connections to/from YYZ via JFK are very unappealing to LA/JJ customers). Important to note that LATAM will soon offer pax two daily overnight flights on both the GRU-JFK and JFK-GRU sectors. Also glad that LAN recently resumed operations on the SCL-ASU route and will soon launch ASU-LIM as PZ will soon become LAN!

Will the daylight JFK-GRU be kept as welll?
727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
 
C010T3
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Posts: 1956
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 2:25 pm

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 27):

Will the daylight JFK-GRU be kept as welll?

It's not clear at this point.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 25):
Considering that LATAM has relegated GIG to a "focus city" instead of as a hub and GIG aspires to become a gateway comparable to certain hubs in Asia, GIG needs all the new international services that it can get as other carriers continue to add capacity and frequencies in GRU.

The frequency increases that we are seeing from many carriers including LATAM at GRU is only partly result of real necessity. The demand is not growing so rapidly. What's really happening is that airlines have entered a slot-sitting battle. Once Terminal 1 becomes fully domestic, I expect Gol and TAM to start their own battle on the domestic side.

[Edited 2014-05-25 07:38:15]
 
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longhauler
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 21):

Meanwhile AC will soon reduce capacity on the YYZ-GRU route...

For the summer ... as always. A daily and sometimes twice daily B767.

The daily B77L starts again in the winter. This should not be a surprise, as normally the passenger demand does not change much throughout the year, but freight demand is huge in the winter and it is not surprising to see 20,000 Kgs of freight in the belly of the Triple.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
Not mention having AC as a competitor that is also expanding.

I would imagine AC would be a tough competitor as seats are often sold below cost just to fill them, as the hold is full of very profitable freight.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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N62NA
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 24):
You can't use the recline or flat bed waiting to takeoff or when the plane is making its final descent so whats the difference when you cant recline and the flight is too short for a meal service.

AA ERJ: 17.3 inch seat at 31 inch pitch in a cabin 6 feet wide and you can't even stand up fully without bumping your head

or

TAM 763: 20 inch seat at 74 inch pitch in a cabin 15 feet wide and ample headroom

To me, that's a big difference. But now we're into personal preference, so what I consider an important difference, you and others may not.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting pierrelav (Reply 9):
A very unpractical decision. Latin American passengers will need both US and CDN visas to fly to YYZ.

You made a good point.
One Brazilian passenger may find better [CM GRU-PTY and then CM PTY-YYZ] and back, in order to avoid the US visa.




.

Quoting C010T3 (Thread starter):
Considering that LAN already operated JFK-YYZ in the past, this could be considered a service resumption.

Did LA [JFK-YYZ] drive the fifth freedom rights in the past?
I find strange why wouldn't LATAM operate YYZ as dedicated flights, taking into account AC YYZ-GRU.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Viscount724
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 30):
AA ERJ: 17.3 inch seat at 31 inch pitch in a cabin 6 feet wide and you can't even stand up fully without bumping your head

AA hasn't used the ERJ on YYZ-JFK/LGA for a year or so. Schedules show all flights as CRJ-700 now.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 11:29 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 30):
TAM 763: 20 inch seat at 74 inch pitch in a cabin 15 feet wide and ample headroom

To me, that's a big difference. But now we're into personal preference, so what I consider an important difference, you and others may not.

You can' t use the reclining seat waiting to take off, taxiing, or on final decent. The final decent is like 1/3 of this flight. Enjoy those 20 ish minutes in that nice seat, you would be totally comfortable in a CR7 for this literal hop in the air. If you were tired you had hours to sleep on your way to JFK and to eat a meal. The CR7 seat is perfectly comfortable for such a short flight.

Its cool to see TAM in YYZ im just skeptical. I don't see this as a good move for TAM permanently. I am thinking its to test to see if JFK and YYZ could handle the flight solo or to develop YYZ and is not meant to be permanent. Cargo can be shipped by truck cheaper directly to the destination needed so i can't see this being about cargo.
 
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N62NA
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Sun May 25, 2014 11:58 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 32):
AA hasn't used the ERJ on YYZ-JFK/LGA for a year or so. Schedules show all flights as CRJ-700 now.

OK. Well, that adds another 24 inches to the cabin width.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):
You can' t use the reclining seat waiting to take off, taxiing, or on final decent. The final decent is like 1/3 of this flight. Enjoy those 20 ish minutes in that nice seat, you would be totally comfortable in a CR7 for this literal hop in the air. If you were tired you had hours to sleep on your way to JFK and to eat a meal. The CR7 seat is perfectly comfortable for such a short flight.

Well, we're into opinions and other subjective issues now. For you, it's OK. For me, I'll take the 767 over the CR7.  
 
Viscount724
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Mon May 26, 2014 12:18 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
For you, it's OK. For me, I'll take the 767 over the CR7.

In a heavily business-oriented market like Toronto-New York, few passengers will want to use a carrier with only one flight a day, and tag-ons to longhaul international flights often have less than the best on-time performance. And JFK isn't the most desirable NYC airport for Toronto traffic, which is obvious when you look at the number of current flights to JFK compared to LGA and EWR.

The only 5th freedom traffic they're likely to get on YYZ-JFK-YYZ is low-yield leisure traffic, and some longhaul connections which is also usually low-yield when prorated. And I expect most YYZ longhaul passengers would prefer to avoid connecting at JFK which usually ranks among the worst U.S. airports for on-time performance, and the multi-terminal design doesn't make connections very convenient.
 
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N62NA
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Mon May 26, 2014 1:53 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
In a heavily business-oriented market like Toronto-New York, few passengers will want to use a carrier with only one flight a day,

I wasn't suggesting that at all in any of my comments on this thread, so I'm not sure why you quoted my comment.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Mon May 26, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting pierrelav (Reply 9):
A very unpractical decision. Latin American passengers will need both US and CDN visas to fly to YYZ.

JJ would win much more if YYZ flight was routed via LIM or BOG or heck via MAO/BEL/FOR, if via JFK that flight will be fine only for Canadian passport holders and those who don't need U.S. visas to travel to the States.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
Viscount724
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Mon May 26, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 36):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
In a heavily business-oriented market like Toronto-New York, few passengers will want to use a carrier with only one flight a day,

I wasn't suggesting that at all in any of my comments on this thread, so I'm not sure why you quoted my comment.

I only quoted you since you said that you would take the JJ 767 over the CR7.
 
uberflieger
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Mon May 26, 2014 11:59 pm

Maybe American and TAM will codeshare to YYZ? Certainly makes for a cool Oneworld option between Toronto and New York.   
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4390
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Tue May 27, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 34):
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 33):
You can' t use the reclining seat waiting to take off, taxiing, or on final decent. The final decent is like 1/3 of this flight. Enjoy those 20 ish minutes in that nice seat, you would be totally comfortable in a CR7 for this literal hop in the air. If you were tired you had hours to sleep on your way to JFK and to eat a meal. The CR7 seat is perfectly comfortable for such a short flight.

Well, we're into opinions and other subjective issues now. For you, it's OK. For me, I'll take the 767 over the CR7.  

Fair Enough  
 
MesaFlyGuy
Posts: 3916
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:36 pm

RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Tue May 27, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 35):
The only 5th freedom traffic they're likely to get on YYZ-JFK-YYZ is low-yield leisure traffic, and some longhaul connections which is also usually low-yield when prorated.

An A.netters wanting the quick widebody flight!  
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1956
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Tue May 27, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting flyguy1 (Reply 27):
Will the daylight JFK-GRU be kept as welll?

Amadeus has delivered the answer. The daylight is cancelled. GRU-JFK is now double daily red-eye.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Tue May 27, 2014 6:22 am

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 37):
JJ would win much more if YYZ flight was routed via LIM or BOG or heck via MAO/BEL/FOR, if via JFK that flight will be fine only for Canadian passport holders and those who don't need U.S. visas to travel to the States.

   While it may lose more money in the short term it would certainly add much more network benefit to LATAM by fortifying LIM/BOG/GRU rather than wasting time on JFK.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
INFINITI329
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Tue May 27, 2014 8:34 pm

so.... any press release

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 42):
Amadeus has delivered the answer. The daylight is cancelled. GRU-JFK is now double daily red-eye.

Anything on the start date of the JFK-YYZ leg?
 
C010T3
Topic Author
Posts: 1956
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RE: TAM Will Route Toronto Through JFK

Tue May 27, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 44):
Anything on the start date of the JFK-YYZ leg?

It will be in November according to the application. It might take some time until TAM receives DOT authority for fifth freedom rights.

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