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Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:04 am

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MaverickM11
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:13 am

“We’re migrating to the largest in class for all aircraft." ...Pretty much the trend across all major airlines. UA with the 739, AA with the 321, DL with the M90  and 739, B6 and the 321, with 73Gs, 319s, and 190s headed for the desert...
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:28 am

I think that the article sort of ignores some key points.
They talk about how AA is taking 321s to replace 320s, and how difficult it is to make money with 319s... meanwhile, the same carrier providing the interview is taking delivery of brand new 319s to replace MD-80s.
And the fact that airlines are ordering the 321 has less to do, in my opinion, with it being a more economical airplane than a 320, and more to do with the fact that there is no true 757 replacement, but the 739/321 birds get as close as most carriers need. Up until now, there hasn't been much need to replace the 752s, but we're to that point now, where it's time for them to go, in many cases.

I guess I just interpreted it as another aviation article written by someone who isn't well versed in airline fleets.
Any idiot can figure out that a 321 costs less per seat mile than a 318.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:31 am

What is interesting is that they are taking A319 and A321 but not A320.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:34 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
And the fact that airlines are ordering the 321 has less to do, in my opinion, with it being a more economical airplane than a 320, and more to do with the fact that there is no true 757 replacement, but the 739/321 birds get as close as most carriers need.

That is how I feel about it. I only dream to hear from Boeing that a proper 757 replacement or a new generation 757 will be made - but we know that that will probably not happen despite press releases and rumors  
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:42 am

Is that not the result of many wide bodies being taken away from the routes in the USA? 1+A320 + 1x762 ~ 2xA321

If you move more of those routes to narrow body service only you need the largest of those to keep the number of seats available at a similar level. It is not like they are taking out 734s and replace them with A321.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:44 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
and how difficult it is to make money with 319s

American Airlines just placed a firm order for a few A319s last month   
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 8:14 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
I guess I just interpreted it as another aviation article written by someone who isn't well versed in airline fleets.

...Quoting Scott Kirby, as in the president of AA and the largest Airbus operator in the world. If anyone knows about the 319's economics it is him. It's hard to say what the original AA Airbus order would have looked like with a bigger input from the new management team, but I also think AA got a screaming deal on the 319s.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 9:59 am

Context is everything. For what the A320s do for US/AA, the A321 is probably the better option.

For what they have the A319 for in replacing the Mad Dogs, it's probably the best option.

That's how I see it.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 10:27 am

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 3):
but not the 320...

Well... Keep in mind that AA do have a large amount of 738s coming in to fill that gap.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 11:06 am

All the A320 coming out of the fleet this year are the old America West birds with the -A1 engines, They were picked up from Braniff and are 25 years old.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 11:15 am

I wouldn't be surprised that AA will replace most of the MD-80 fleet with the A319--maybe even the A319neo version. Essentially, almost the same seating capacity, but with much lower noise footprint and way lower fuel burn.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 11):
I wouldn't be surprised that AA will replace most of the MD-80 fleet with the A319--maybe even the A319neo version. Essentially, almost the same seating capacity, but with much lower noise footprint and way lower fuel burn.


I would be very surprised if AA is going to operate 200+ A319/319NEO's. The 319 serves a purpose in the new AA with hot/high capabilities but a A320/738 is going to be much more economical to use at the airports capable of receiving it.

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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 12:20 pm

The A319 does help AA will those airports in Latin America where performance is essential. It could take over flights where the 757 currently flies.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 12:30 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 13):
The A319 does help AA will those airports in Latin America where performance is essential. It could take over flights where the 757 currently flies.

You thinking of them upping the frequencies?
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 1:33 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 9):

Well... Keep in mind that AA do have a large amount of 738s coming in to fill that gap.

And the 738 has historically had slightly better performance for transcons until later 320 revisions, so in some respects maybe it is the better plane.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 1:33 pm

With the A321 versus A320 the following is achieved:

1. AA gets 37 more seats i.e. 25% more capacity on board against only 9% higher operating costs + an extra ton of belly cargo.

2. B6 on the other hand gets 27% more on board capacity on their all Y class A321s versus their 150 seater A320s !
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 2:00 pm

Kirby's comments on the A319 are interesting. Some hubs rely heavily on the A319 (ie. PHX). It will be interesting to watch weather this will result in upgrades or downgrades as the A319 fleet is re-evaluated. Most mid-continent destinations from PHX are flown by the A319 (ie. CMH, DSM, OMA, DTW, IAH, IND, MCI, PIT, STL). In addition, many western destinations from PHX are also served via A319 (ie. RNO, YYC, SJC, ONT, BOI, GEG).
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 2:22 pm

When I read between the lines, could this mean fewer A319s and more A321s for AMR?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Pretty much the trend across all major airlines.

Agreed. Winglets and engine improvements have reduced the cost delta between the types. This makes the A321 more attractive. I don't have the number in front of me, but the A321 used to be about 12% more expensive to fly than the A320. Now that it is about 9% more expensive, there is less reason not to fly the added seats with their potential added revenue.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 9):
Keep in mind that AA do have a large amount of 738s coming in to fill that gap.

   No reason the MD-80s have to replaced with like gauge. Most flights should up-gauge. I could see a few going to the A321...

Quoting larshjort (Reply 12):
The 319 serves a purpose in the new AA with hot/high capabilities but a A320/738 is going to be much more economical to use at the airports capable of receiving it.

I didn't get AMR only up-gauging to the A319. So if the choice is made to go larger, I shall not be surprised.

Nor would I be surprised if the 738s left on order are converted to 739ERs.

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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 3:54 pm

Didn't AA order a couple 739s a few years ago? Or perhaps that was just a rumor...
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 4:16 pm

The A320 is at a slight disadvantage against the 737-800 because it is slightly shorter with no compensating performance advantage. Neither the A321 nor the A319 has that problem against its Boeing competition (in fact, the 737-900ER is the one at a disadvantage against the A321).
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 4:28 pm

I see the A319 becoming a very route specific a/c, in addition to being a perfect a/c to fine tune capacity demand in smaller markets providing point to point service compared to going through the traditional hub and spoke system. I think of newer routes AA started @ LAX. BDL, CMH, RDU, PBI, PIT. On higher demand days, the 738 does the job well, but on many days where the demand is markedly less, the A319 will do a much better job making money than the 738. When the cross fleeting begins, perhaps the A320 will fit a particular market better, depending on what market they are going after.

The same can be said about Delta. Recently, Delta opted to not have their A320 fleet fitted with nose to tail AVOD as they will use this sub-fleet on shorter range routes, while the A319 will be used on longer flights, and in markets where the A319 has a niche with superior operating performance when compared to the A320.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):

With the A321 versus A320 the following is achieved:

1. AA gets 37 more seats i.e. 25% more capacity on board against only 9% higher operating costs + an extra ton of belly cargo.

I think that is the key right there. They don't need to take advantage of all the extra capacity in order to break even or make money.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 7:17 pm

Okay, good morning, I'm back with more comments.
Basically, I think the whole premise of the article is flawed.
Saying that newAMR is replacing A320 with A321 isn't really accurate. They're replacing ancient A320s, sure, but they're also replacing MD-80s, with both the 319 and 321. And the 321 isn't really replacing the 320, but more the 757s and 762s leaving the fleet.
Same at United. The 739ER is not replacing smaller regional jets, per se, as much as it is replacing pmUA's 757-222 fleet, all except for PS birds.
Meanwhile, Delta is GROWING their fleet of SMALLER airplanes, namely the 717 and MD-90, which is again lower capacity than a 321.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 6):
American Airlines just placed a firm order for a few A319s last month

Exactly, Karel, and that's why I don't understand them knocking the economics of the airplanes they're STILL ORDERING.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
...Quoting Scott Kirby, as in the president of AA and the largest Airbus operator in the world. If anyone knows about the 319's economics it is him. It's hard to say what the original AA Airbus order would have looked like with a bigger input from the new management team, but I also think AA got a screaming deal on the 319s.

If AA didn't want the 319, why did they order them? A "good deal" is only a "good value" if it meets your needs; AA ordered the 319, and now Scott Kirby is saying you can't make money with that airplane!?!? As they take 2-3 new ones every month!?!?!

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 10):
All the A320 coming out of the fleet this year are the old America West birds with the -A1 engines, They were picked up from Braniff and are 25 years old.

I bet they're true dogs, too. Should ordered MD-80s!!! LOL
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 8:51 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
If AA didn't want the 319, why did they order them? A "good deal" is only a "good value" if it meets your needs; AA ordered the 319, and now Scott Kirby is saying you can't make money with that airplane!?!? As they take 2-3 new ones every month!?!?!

US has had to deal with a lot more lower yielding connecting traffic due to their hub structure. That is something that AA did not have to factor in to the decision on aircraft types when they placed their order.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Mon May 26, 2014 9:02 pm

I never understood the A319 order by AA for the same reasons stated in the article. I don't understand any significant order of A319s at this point unless you need the aircraft immediately or do not believe the CS300 will come to market. For smaller purchases A319 may make sense for fleet commonality but more than a small number and airlines should be looking around for more efficient options.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
I guess I just interpreted it as another aviation article written by someone who isn't well versed in airline fleets.

As is the case with so much we see from the print media anymore. You'd think Forbes could do better.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 1:37 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
I don't have the number in front of me, but the A321 used to be about 12% more expensive to fly than the A320.

Yes you are right if a decade ago the A321-100 was being compared against the A320. The improvements the A321-200 has brought to the table has brought that figure down to 9%.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
Meanwhile, Delta is GROWING their fleet of SMALLER airplanes, namely the 717 and MD-90, which is again lower capacity than a 321.

Actually there is another side to this story as well as business strategy involved here. If you didn't know already, Delta has had a history of being at rock bottom prices used airplanes and using them till they almost hit the grave yard. Remember they bought a bunch of Gulf Air Tristars in 1994 and then later on before the turn of the century a few B763s! DL bought these B717s at very good rates hence their capital acquisition costs are way lower than AA for the newer A319s.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 24):

US has had to deal with a lot more lower yielding connecting traffic due to their hub structure. That is something that AA did not have to factor in to the decision on aircraft types when they placed their order.

Yes that could be true and also the A321's economics and capacity is perfectly suited to the high density mega AA hubs of JFK, MIA, ORD and DFW in particular where there is a good combination of O&D (MIA and JFK in particular) as well as lots of connecting traffic within the North American continent. The A321 is a good niche aircraft for many MIA-LATAM routes too not requiring B767/787 capacity.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 2:16 am

Whenever a new type comes out, the airlines will buy smaller variants because the larger variants lack the necessary performance. For this reason, the 773 was largely eschewed, for example, while the 772 sold well.

As the underlying technology of that type matures and the type becomes more capable, the larger variants now have the necessary performance but don't cost much more than the smaller variants to fly, and that makes them much more attractive. By that time, the smaller variants now have far more performance than needed and thus unnecessary structure and CASM. And this is why the 77W was a smash hit and the 77L not so much.

The A320 and 737 families are now both technologically mature and there are few missions that the A320 can do that the A321 can't. The newest A321s can fly JFK-SFO year-round, which they couldn't do back when they were introduced. I will be interested to see if the 737-7 is actually ever produced. The same with the A319-NEO. The A321-NEO will dominate the market and the A320-NEO will maybe take a third of the long-term order book. By the time the NEO program is ten years old, the A321-NEO might have essentially the same capabilities as the 757-200!
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 2:43 am

Does anyone have stats comparing 739ER to A321, and both against the 752?
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 27):
Actually there is another side to this story as well as business strategy involved here. If you didn't know already, Delta has had a history of being at rock bottom prices used airplanes and using them till they almost hit the grave yard. Remember they bought a bunch of Gulf Air Tristars in 1994 and then later on before the turn of the century a few B763s! DL bought these B717s at very good rates hence their capital acquisition costs are way lower than AA for the newer A319s.

Yeah yeah, but none of that has anything to do with my point. Saying that Delta bought 717s because they got a good deal is sort of like saying, "Hey, DC-6s are cheap these days, Delta should grab a bunch."
ONLY if it MEETS A NEED. Which the 717 did for Delta.
Point being, Delta sees fit to continue to acquire smaller airplanes, not just the 739ERs.
And I don't understand why AA is bemoaning the economics of the 319 vis a vis the 321. They knew the numbers when they ordered... it's not like the 319 is some unproven animal.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 2:45 am

.....am I the only one impressed that in the article they actually show a picture of the very plane the article is about?
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 2:54 am

I understand why the A319 is important to the new AA. It allows opening of new routes and upgrading of routes that would be otherwise be serviced by RJ's. Also, it allows long and thin routes to the Caribbean, Latin and South America.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 33):
I understand why the A319 is important to the new AA. It allows opening of new routes and upgrading of routes that would be otherwise be serviced by RJ's. Also, it allows long and thin routes to the Caribbean, Latin and South America.

But the 738max will be the king of the sub A321 NEO market. I can't see an airline paying money to buy a 319 or 319 NEO with a 738max on offer. So yes, you have good ideas to use existing A319 for, but I would question AA taking any A32x NEO frame that isn't a A321 NEO. (and I would be amazed at any operator using both A32x neo and 737 max taking a 739Max.)
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 25):
or do not believe the CS300 will come to market.

It is very hard for the CS300 to get sales traction when Airbus will offer the A320 for the same price and the airline is guaranteed a higher residual, etc, etc.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 5:34 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 34):
But the 738max will be the king of the sub A321 NEO market. I can't see an airline paying money to buy a 319 or 319 NEO with a 738max on offer. So yes, you have good ideas to use existing A319 for, but I would question AA taking any A32x NEO frame that isn't a A321 NEO. (and I would be amazed at any operator using both A32x neo and 737 max taking a 739Max.)

The A320 can easily overcome its disadvantage relative to the 738, and the 739 relative to the A321, through pricing. Delta has said that extremely advantageous pricing led to its 739ER order. I'm sure that if pricing were the same they would have ordered 100 A321ceos.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 31):
They knew the numbers when they ordered... it's not like the 319 is some unproven animal.

   Airlines occasionally get funny ideas about new and innovative ways to make money with shrinks. They almost always regret it, unless the frames are specifically dedicated to hot-and-high missions. See NW with its A319s (which DL has managed to make work OK by putting extra seats)... CO with its 762s (which it wished were 763s from the day they showed up on property)... AS with its 73Gs... the list goes on.

I think if AA could do it over again it would have ordered A320s instead of A319s, except maybe for a small mission-specific order.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 6:07 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 36):
See NW with its A319s (which DL has managed to make work OK by putting extra seats)... CO with its 762s (which it wished were 763s from the day they showed up on property)... AS with its 73Gs... the list goes on.
NW was sending those 319s to the desert before DC9s, CO/UA got rid of the 762s asap, and AS only has a handful of 73Gs and none on order...

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 23):
If AA didn't want the 319, why did they order them? A "good deal" is only a "good value" if it meets your needs; AA ordered the 319, and now Scott Kirby is saying you can't make money with that airplane!?!? As they take 2-3 new ones every month!?!?!

I'll trust Scott Kirby's word, plus it fits the general pattern of just about any other carrier. The Airbus order was placed under the previous team, and perhaps there isn't much the new team can do about it, but I wouldn't be surprised if you see a shift to larger tails either. By comparison to the M80 it's probably still a huge leap forward, and as I mentioned I suspect the ownership costs are probably low as Airbus wanted AA as a customer and the NEO is arriving soon.

[Edited 2014-05-26 23:15:18]
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 7:25 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 34):
But the 738max will be the king of the sub A321 NEO market. I can't see an airline paying money to buy a 319 or 319 NEO with a 738max on offer. So yes, you have good ideas to use existing A319 for, but I would question AA taking any A32x NEO frame that isn't a A321 NEO. (and I would be amazed at any operator using both A32x neo and 737 max taking a 739Max.)

The A320neo order book shows more orders for the A320 than the 737-8, I guess the king has yet to find its crown? Besides, Airbus is going to address the exit limit of A320, boosting capacity to 189 seats.
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 1:49 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 36):
The A320 can easily overcome its disadvantage relative to the 738, and the 739 relative to the A321, through pricing. Delta has said that extremely advantageous pricing led to its 739ER order. I'm sure that if pricing were the same they would have ordered 100 A321ceos.

I was talking about any airline that was going to operate narrowbodies from both manufacturers. Sorry I failed to make that clear in the first post.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 38):
The A320neo order book shows more orders for the A320 than the 737-8, I guess the king has yet to find its crown? Besides, Airbus is going to address the exit limit of A320, boosting capacity to 189 seats.

Its also avalible years sooner, so... Also the 739ER can seat a theoretical 215 people. as far as I'm aware exactly 0 airlines have been that dumb. Increasing the exit limit on the A320 is good, but it doesn't make the plane longer to provide actual room for the passengers.
 
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
By comparison to the M80 it's probably still a huge leap forward

Not for passengers it isn't. Maybe for those that are in love with IFE, it's better, but the A319 is a lot more cramped than an MD80 and provides a lot less chance for Main Cabin Extra or FC upgrade. I'm avoiding it as much as possible. Maybe if they did have A320's they wouldn't have to make them as much of a sAArdine can to make money with them (I realize they could stuff A320's to the gills the same way though...)
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StTim
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 4:12 pm

It is for passengers sat at the back that do not have to cope with the roar of the engines just inches from their ears.

I do like the MD80 but it is a plane from a different era (I almost typed ear there!) when it comes to overall comfort. Obviously that is only my opinion and others will disagree.  
 
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par13del
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting mcoflyer (Reply 33):
I understand why the A319 is important to the new AA. It allows opening of new routes and upgrading of routes that would be otherwise be serviced by RJ's.

I thought the bought the A319 to replace the MD-80's.
 
goldenstate
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 31):
Yeah yeah, but none of that has anything to do with my point. Saying that Delta bought 717s because they got a good deal is sort of like saying, "Hey, DC-6s are cheap these days, Delta should grab a bunch."
ONLY if it MEETS A NEED. Which the 717 did for Delta.
Point being, Delta sees fit to continue to acquire smaller airplanes, not just the 739ERs.

Actually, it has everything to do with your point. You can't evaluate the economics of selecting and acquiring an aircraft without considering acquisition cost. The MD-90 and 717 are unique in that they were relatively inexpensive to acquire, yet offer the operating economics of late model high bypass turbofan engines, most notably fuel consumption and time on wing.

The 717 in particular is well suited to the short haul 100-seater niche because the airframe and wing are not weighed down with unnecessary transcon range capability. Holding all other variables constant, a ~20% reduction in ZFW is very significant for an aircraft that will be performing 6 to 10 takeoffs per day. Neither Delta nor anyone else in their right mind would have been interested in A318s or 737-600s.

So the comments from Scott Kirby are well in line with how the rest of the industry, including Delta, is thinking about narrowbody gauge.

[Edited 2014-05-27 10:21:03]
 
lhcvg
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 5:35 pm

Quoting goldenstate (Reply 43):
Actually, it has everything to do with your point. You can't evaluate the economics of selecting and acquiring an aircraft without considering acquisition cost. The MD-90 and 717 are unique in that they were relatively inexpensive to acquire, yet offer the operating economics of late model high bypass turbofan engines, most notably fuel consumption and time on wing.

And I'd further point the naysayers to the MD90 trip and fuel cost numbers that compare favorably with the 738 on many missions.
 
astuteman
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 5:40 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 34):
But the 738max will be the king of the sub A321 NEO market

The evidence to date suggests this is not quite the runaway you suggest.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 39):
Its also avalible years sooner, so

It may be, but it also competes for production slots with the A321NEO.

For reference,
the A320NEO has sold 2056 examples in the 1267 days it has been on offer, at 1.62 orders per day.
the 738 MAX has sold 1750 examples in the 1036 days it has been on offer, at 1.69 orders per day.

This suggests that the difference is marginal enough that neither of them is ever going to own the appellation "The King"
For reference, the A320 NEO has more sales than the entire 737 MAX range to date.
Whilst accept the A320NEO has an availability advantage, these are hardly statistics of a type that is getting eclipsed..

Rgds
 
max550
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 5:55 pm

It makes sense that AA would go with the A321 over A320 since the operating costs aren't much higher. However, it seems odd that the article made no mention of the 738 and 738MAX orders. It's not as if AA isn't ordering A320 sized planes anymore, they're just not ordering A320's.
If you consider the A320 and 738 interchangeable (US A320 seats 150, AA 738 seats 150) it would appear that they'll actually have a larger fleet of A320 size aircraft than anything else.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 45):

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 34):
But the 738max will be the king of the sub A321 NEO market

The evidence to date suggests this is not quite the runaway you suggest.

I agree with Astuteman. While the -8 Max will have a CASM advantage over the A320NEO, the difference has shrunk.

I just do not see any resale other than parts for the -7 MAX and A319NEO other than long haul business jets.

Quoting StTim (Reply 41):

It is for passengers sat at the back that do not have to cope with the roar of the engines just inches from their ears.

I will not fly MD-80s as I've been placed next to the engine too often. (Full fare too!)


Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
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dennypayne
Posts: 241
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 47):
Quoting StTim (Reply 41):

It is for passengers sat at the back that do not have to cope with the roar of the engines just inches from their ears.

I will not fly MD-80s as I've been placed next to the engine too often. (Full fare too!)

Some nice noise canceling headsets will take care of a lot of that. At least on the MD80 you won't have crushed legs from the abominable seat pitch on the A319.

Quoting max550 (Reply 46):
it would appear that they'll actually have a larger fleet of A320 size aircraft than anything else.

Exactly, the "A320" role here is being filled by the B738 - Airbus nor Boeing alone could fulfull the volume required to replace all the older aircraft so the split order fills all of the niches.
A300/310/319/320/321/332/333/343/380 AN24/28/38/148 AT7 B190
B717/722/732/3/4/5/7/8/9 742/744/752/753/762/763/764/772/773/788/789
CR2/7/9 D8S D93/4/5 DHC2/3/7/8 D28/38 EMB/EM2/ER3/D/4/E70/75/90
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justplanenutz
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RE: Forbes: A321 Forcing A320 Out At American Airlines

Tue May 27, 2014 7:09 pm

This will get interesting ~2017, after the last MD80 gets retired by CEO equipment. What will AA do with ~200 NEO/MAX frames? 321-NEOs will replace any remaining non-TATL 757s, but what next? The first batch of 738s (circa 2001) or all of the ~50 remaining 320s? Both?

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