LY777
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Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 2:29 pm

AF is doing quite well on this route, and it is weird to sse that there are no US carriers on this route!

Your thoughts?
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Delta777Jet
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 2:33 pm

There is nobody else on LAX - AMS than KLM, nobody else on LAX-FRA than Lufthansa, nobody else on LAX-ZRH than Swiss, nobody else than LAX-FCO than Alitalia, Just LAX-LHR is operated by several airlines besides BA (VS, NZ, AA) !
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jetblue1965
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 1):
Just LAX-LHR is operated by several airlines besides BA (VS, NZ, AA) !

Add in UA and soon DL. LAX-LHR and LAX-NRT are 2 very crowded lanes.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 2:39 pm

Many have tried and failed. TWA, AA and UA have all run the route.

Its relative lower yielding market when compared to LHR for example, and one without benefit of feed on the France end for US airlines.

Dont forget you also have TN in the market against AF as well and historically other carriers have also served the route like AOM, Minerve, Corsair and Air Evasion.
Lastly remember much of the AF capacity in the market is not focused on local demand but part of its Tahiti sector route, and also AF heavily sells connections to many markets to LAX via CDG.
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B747forever
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 1):
There is nobody else on LAX - AMS than KLM, nobody else on LAX-FRA than Lufthansa, nobody else on LAX-ZRH than Swiss, nobody else than LAX-FCO than Alitalia,

While I dont have any raw numbers, I am sure that LAX-CDG is bigger on O&D than the other routes you mentioned, and therefore makes it easier for a US airline to enter the market.
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boeing773er
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 2:59 pm

Well Delta is honestly on the LAX-CDG route, so for them to launch a route against AF would be pointless.
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bohica
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 3:20 pm

Quoting delta777jet (Reply 1):
There is nobody else on LAX - AMS than KLM, nobody else on LAX-FRA than Lufthansa, nobody else on LAX-ZRH than Swiss, nobody else than LAX-FCO than Alitalia

AMS and FCO carry DL codeshares. FRA and ZRH carry UA codeshares.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 3:29 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
AMS and FCO carry DL codeshares. FRA and ZRH carry UA codeshares.

Wait ... so AF/CDG and LH/MUC isn't code-shared ??
 
travelin man
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):

AF is doing quite well on this route, and it is weird to sse that there are no US carriers on this route!

Your thoughts?

Delta is in effect "on" the route since DL and AF share trans-Atlantic revenues.

I remember flying UA on LAX-CDG back around 1999 or 2000 on a 772, but it was dropped shortly thereafter.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 3):
Its relative lower yielding market when compared to LHR for example, and one without benefit of feed on the France end for US airlines

Why would DK not receive feed from AF on the CDG end as a part of the DL/KL/DL joint venture

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
AF is doing quite well on this route, and it is weird to sse that there are no US carriers on this route!

Your thoughts?

How do you know that AF is doing well on this since AF does not nrelease those sort of numbers
 
B747forever
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):
How do you know that AF is doing well on this since AF does not nrelease those sort of numbers

Well, bearing in mind that they operate up to 3 daily flights, 1x A380, 2x 777s on the route, I can assure they must be making some kind of money, or else they wouldnt operate it at such a high frequency.
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FriscoHeavy
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 4:37 pm

As great as it would be to have this route, I do not see it happening unfortunately.
Whatever
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 10):
I can assure they must be making some kind of money, or else they wouldnt operate it at such a high frequency.

So are you saying that any airline that operates 3 or more flights on any route is making money on the route? If that is your only proof, then the idea needs more research
 
B747forever
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 12):
So are you saying that any airline that operates 3 or more flights on any route is making money on the route? If that is your only proof, then the idea needs more research

Tell me again how long this route is. You do not throw around capacity like that (1 A380, 2 777s) on a long haul route without positive numbers, especially true in this case when there isnt even any competitors to fend off and be "forced" to keep up frequency.
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LY777
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 5:03 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):
How do you know that AF is doing well on this since AF does not nrelease those sort of numbers

Flights are always full (I know this is not sufficient to say that a route is profitable), and they upgauged from 77W to A388, so I guess the route is profitable!
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nicode
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 6:34 pm

Don't forget Air Tahiti Nui on this route ! (but I don't know their frequency).
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
Tell me again how long this route is You do not throw around capacity like that (1 A380, 2 777s) on a long haul route without positive numbers, especially true in this case when there isnt even any competitors to fend off and be "forced" to keep up frequency

So in effect it is only your intuition about the profitability of this flight As to how long the route is, I will leave you to look that up. Again I will ask if every route is profitable, if a carrier has 3 or more flights in the market? I would bet that there hundreds of routes if not thousands that meet your criteria and they are not profitable
 
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ua900
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
Tell me again how long this route is. You do not throw around capacity like that (1 A380, 2 777s) on a long haul route without positive numbers, especially true in this case when there isnt even any competitors to fend off and be "forced" to keep up frequency.

   AF doesn't throw that much equipment at a loser. The closest analogy I can think of are the two LH 748s to FRA each day. LAX commands a sufficient amount of premium traffic to allow for that many AF and LH seats. DL and UA already participate through their revenue-sharing agreements with AF and LH.
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DLPMMM
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 7:03 pm

Please remember that under the AF/KL/DL/AZ joint venture, each airline is responsible for flying a given amount of TATL flying, all their costs and revenues are thrown into a pot, and the resultant profits/losses are divided among the participants.

My understanding is that the division of metal across the Atlantic is by Available Seat Miles.

I would guess the is makes more sense in general under the agreements to use AF aircraft for the largest and longest TATL flights while using DL for the smaller and shorter flights...like the 763 from PIT to CDG.

It is all about right-sizing aircraft for each location and minimizing costs while maximizing revenue and keeping in the metal neutral agreements (including agreements with the unions).
 
B747forever
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 7:09 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):
As to how long the route is, I will leave you to look that up. Again I will ask if every route is profitable, if a carrier has 3 or more flights in the market? I would bet that there hundreds of routes if not thousands that meet your criteria and they are not profitable

Again, you should really look up the distance. This is not your typical 1 hour competitive LAX-SFO route on which you must have a certain amount of flights in order to attract customers, even if it is loss making. I would be very happy if you can find me only 10 routes, instead of the thousands you mention, that are +11hours long on which you have a single carrier, operating 3 VLAs (including 1 A380), without making a profit on it.

A poor performing long haul route wont have 1 A380 and 2 777s on it.
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boswashsprstar
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 7:28 pm

Keep in mind that this route is fairly non-symmetrical when it comes to who would operate it. In a pre-JV, pre-alliance world where each carrier is out for themselves, this route makes sense for Air France to operate because there are lots of people in LA who want to go to places in Europe, and lots of people in Europe who want to go to LA, and this route combined with a big hub in CDG makes a good combination.

By contrast, for an airline like UA or AA with an LAX hub, the route would be focused on traffic directed to and from CDG, and connections beyond LAX -- but connections beyond LAX that don't result in backtracking are very few (basically just SAN, Hawaii, and some west coast of Mexico stuff). For AA and UA, much easier to serve CDG from ORD, and then offer numerous straightforward connections to the west and south of the US from ORD.

JVs and alliances make this picture a little muddier, but AA and UA don't have an alliance partner at CDG, so they're still stuck with only local traffic to and from Paris, while AF/DL can take advantage of connections to dozens of onward European, African and Middle Eastern cities. It is conceivable that DL might take over some of the AF operations on the route at some point in the future, but other than making sure they have the right-sized aircraft on the route and that both airlines are using all their aircraft, DL and AF are indifferent on who operates those flights.

(KL operates between Amsterdam and many more cities in the US than do AA/UA/US for the same reason ... on a route like DFW-AMS, there are lots of people looking to travel between Dallas and various cities in Europe with just one stop, but many fewer people looking to travel between Amsterdam and the south-central United States -- both because Dallas is a bigger city than Amsterdam, and because Amsterdam is in a better location to provide lots of onward connections than Dallas is, relative to each other.)

[Edited 2014-05-27 12:30:09]
 
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 7:48 pm

Delta's as Richard Anderson pointed out on in the last earnings conference call (April 23, 2014) termed the Atlantic 'their .. consistently very best performer' of all their divisions (Domestic, Pacific, Latin America and Atlantic). The immunized joint venture between DL and AF/KLM covers all their flights between North America and Europe, and pools all the revenues, pools all the expenses, and then splits the profits basically down the middle. Their JV is interesting because IIRC it is the only one to be based on splitting profits, the other agreements such as AA/BA etc split revenues only. If is profitable for Delta and Delta tends to be a (very) profitable airline, the JV has to be equally as profitable for AF/KLM. So while this does not guarantee that LAX-CDG by itself, as a free standing route, is profitable, the fact that the JV has increased capacity, suggests that it is a profitable route. And if it is not, then the rest of the JV has to be so incredibly profitable, that LAX-CDG is just along for the ride as part of their joint comprehensive trans-Atlantic network.
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AADC10
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 10):
Well, bearing in mind that they operate up to 3 daily flights, 1x A380, 2x 777s on the route, I can assure they must be making some kind of money, or else they wouldnt operate it at such a high frequency.

Part of throwing that many seats on the market is to shut others out of the market. DL is not interested since they have revenue sharing while AA and UA without an alliance hub on the other end and limited feed would struggle against AF. AF also pushed UA to downguage to 757s on IAD-CDG.
 
TYCOON
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 8:04 pm

In addition to very full flights in all classes, another indication of the attractiveness of the route for AF in terms of profitability is that this is one of the routes where the 1st class cabin will remain, as AF begins to remove the first class offer from most of their international routes. Only a handful of the most profitable routes will keep it.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
AF is doing quite well on this route, and it is weird to sse that there are no US carriers on this route!

The preface to your question is the answer. AF absolutely destroys the competition on the route, as they compete heavily on product and control much of the yield.

Quoting travelin man (Reply 8):
I remember flying UA on LAX-CDG back around 1999 or 2000 on a 772, but it was dropped shortly thereafter.

I believe UA, like AA, used a 763ER on the route.
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travelin man
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
I believe UA, like AA, used a 763ER on the route.

Not when I flew it, I remember quite clearly it was a 772. Because I burned miles upgrading to a First Suite on the aircraft.
 
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 9:58 pm

Quoting nicode (Reply 15):
Don't forget Air Tahiti Nui on this route ! (but I don't know their frequency).

TN is 5 x week LAX-CDG (daily except Wed/Fri).
 
jayunited
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Tue May 27, 2014 10:00 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 6):
AMS and FCO carry DL codeshares. FRA and ZRH carry UA codeshares.

I like how people always throw out the word codeshare to make up for the fact that no U.S. carrier flies these routes with their own metal which is why this thread was started. Everyone understands how codeshares and JV's work but I think it is a valid point as to why U.S. carriers can only make certain international routes work from LAX on their own metal but have to depend on their partners for other destinations.
 
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 12:06 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 27):
to make up

But that's the point--it does make up for the fact. DL has absolutely no reason to fly the route as they've got a comprehensive JV. Everyone else can do it with one stop.
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BA0197
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 12:24 am

It is these sort of reminders that tell you how important the LHR market is from the US. The fact that 5 airlines fly LAX-LHR (BA soon with double daily A380s) show the significance of the UK travel market and how important LON is on the global stage.
 
reality
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 29):
The fact that 5 airlines fly

Actually, 6, when Norwegian starts LAX-LGW in July. (Just 2 days per week/and not LHR.)
 
jayunited
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 1:04 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):
But that's the point--it does make up for the fact. DL has absolutely no reason to fly the route as they've got a comprehensive JV. Everyone else can do it with one stop.

I understand that but even before we had these comprehensive codeshares and JV's US airlines have struggled to make certain international destinations work from LAX. If we took your point of view one could say that there is no reason for DL for fly JFK-CDG or for AA to fly JFK-LHR, or for UA to fly EWR-FRA do to comprehensive JV's but yet all these airlines do fly those routes. In fact LAX is just as fractured as the NYC market but yet in the NYC market you find US airlines servicing many destinations all over the world along side their JV partners. LHR is the only transatlantic route from LAX where you find both partners operating the route. CDG, MUC, FRA, AMS and other are only operated by the European partner not the US partner and I think this thread is about why US airlines it difficult to not only operate LAX-CDG but also any other transatlantic route except LHR.
 
travelin man
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 1:21 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 31):
I think this thread is about why US airlines it difficult to not only operate LAX-CDG but also any other transatlantic route except LHR.

I think it's been mentioned above, but the reason is that the European airlines can facilitate onward connections from their hubs, but the US airlines cannot facilitate many connections from LAX, so it makes more sense for the Euro airlines to operate the LAX-Europe routes.

LHR is its own beast with such a huge amount of O&D (and premium O&D at that), that it makes sense for the US airlines to serve it with their own metal in addition to partner carriers.
 
avek00
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting travelin man (Reply 32):
I think it's been mentioned above, but the reason is that the European airlines can facilitate onward connections from their hubs, but the US airlines cannot facilitate many connections from LAX, so it makes more sense for the Euro airlines to operate the LAX-Europe routes.

Yes, for much the same reason US carriers run TATL flights into the smaller European cities.
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hohd
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Wed May 28, 2014 1:18 pm

LAX definitely has good amount of O &D and probably is the second highest in the US after the New York market to CDG. AA has a shot of making it work from CDG, as AA offer some connections, UA is unlikely. UA even withdrew from IAH, where it has a fottress hub and ceding the market to AF, which is rumoured to make it a 380 in the future.
 
DTWLAX
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting hohd (Reply 34):
AA has a shot of making it work from CDG, as AA offer some connections, UA is unlikely.

What connections does AA offer?
Nothing at CDG and just minimal at LAX if one does not want to backtrack.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 35):
What connections does AA offer?
Nothing at CDG and just minimal at LAX if one does not want to backtrack.

Don't forget about AA's strong relationship with AS at a time when the AS/DL (and in turn AF) relationship is turning sour.
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DTWLAX
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 36):
Don't forget about AA's strong relationship with AS at a time when the AS/DL (and in turn AF) relationship is turning sour.

And that is why I said 'if one does not want to backtrack' AA offers minimal connections al LAX.
Anything north of LAX is better served by connecting via SEA, PDX or SFO.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 3:01 am

AF flies almost 40% of it's paying "P" passengers on just three routes: JFK, LAX and IAD.
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compensateme
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 3:20 am

I'm shocked that there's 38 responses, and none from the AA faithful declaring LAX/CDG a priority of the new HPdbaAA and guaranteeing it'll print money...
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N1120A
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 3:30 am

Quoting hohd (Reply 34):
LAX definitely has good amount of O &D and probably is the second highest in the US after the New York market to CDG.

As an airport, none surpassed LAX for O&D overall

Quoting hohd (Reply 34):
AA has a shot of making it work from CDG, as AA offer some connections

AA didn't make it work before, and they tried hard.
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reality
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 4:33 am

How does United make CDG work non-stop from SFO? But no American airline can from LAX?
 
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mats
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Thu May 29, 2014 5:47 am

I think there are four issues with an airline like United:

1. Space
United is consolidating its operations, so that can mean less room for a 767 to fly to Paris. They might be better off freeing up space in Terminal 7 for two 737s on shorter flights than one 767 to fly to Paris. I remember discussion here about Delta's failed attempt to fly from LAX to São Paulo. Gate space was part of the problem.

2. Opportunity Cost
United might make money flying from LAX to Paris, but they probably figured that they can make MORE money using that aircraft to fly a more profitable route.

3. Connections
As others have mentioned, United doesn't have a great setup for connections in Paris. In Frankfurt, a United passenger can connect to a massive array of Lufthansa and Star Alliance flights without even having to re-clear security. In Paris, Star Alliance flights are spread between two quite distant terminals, and one has to re-clear security. As far as I know, there are no routes out of Paris that cannot be flown by way of Frankfurt or Munich from Los Angeles.

Compare this with the Air France/Delta joint venture. Although not as easy as Frankfurt, Terminal 2 in Paris provides a huge range of connections. Passengers from Los Angeles can connect to a huge network with Air France and its SkyTeam partners. United does not have that opportunity in Paris.

4. Duplication
There is already a United nonstop from San Francisco. Whatever west coast feed there might be available (California UAX flights, Hawaii, Pacific Northwest) can easily connect in SFO. For travelers from Hawaii and the Northwest, the travel time is reduced if one compares SFO and LAX. I don't know how much Hawaii or Pacific Northwest traffic there is, but it's more readily served from SFO.
 
milesrich
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Fri May 30, 2014 3:38 am

Quoting reality (Reply 41):
How does United make CDG work non-stop from SFO? But no American airline can from LAX?

Because SFO is a much bigger hub for UA than LAX. There is more feed from other western cities.
 
goldorak
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Fri May 30, 2014 5:41 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 9):
How do you know that AF is doing well on this since AF does not nrelease those sort of numbers
Quoting LY777 (Reply 14):
Flights are always full (I know this is not sufficient to say that a route is profitable), and they upgauged from 77W to A388, so I guess the route is profitable!

LAX is indeed one of the best AF route in North America, in terms of yields. IAD was the top one (still the case or not, I don't know) but LAX was right after I think.

Quoting alitalia744 (Reply 38):
AF flies almost 40% of it's paying "P" passengers on just three routes: JFK, LAX and IAD.

This is indeed correct (info released officially by AF during the presentation of their new P product.

Quoting reality (Reply 41):
How does United make CDG work non-stop from SFO? But no American airline can from LAX?

Well, we don't really know if UA is now doing well on SFO. In the past, it was a weak route for them and they didn't fly it for more than 10 years.
 
bobnwa
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Sat May 31, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting travelin man (Reply 32):
I think it's been mentioned above, but the reason is that the European airlines can facilitate onward connections from their hubs, but the US airlines cannot facilitate many connections from LAX, so it makes more sense for the Euro airlines to operate the LAX-Europe routes

The US carriers have the same amount of connection possibilities in Europe as the European carriers if they belong to an alliance,(which they do)
 
jfk777
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:34 pm

This is not so much a symptom of LAX to CDG but US airlines run flights to cities other then LHR and NRT only from their hubs. Look at all the flights foreign airlines like LH, AF, KLM, Emirates, Qatar and Etihad have to US cities with no reciprical US airline service. There are exceptions to this generally at JFK and LAX.

Hubs have shown us you can fill a 300 seat plane to just about any destination with a lerge enough hub( 600 flights daily). Look at Delta fro Atlanta to Dubai and Johannesburg. AA's new flight from DFW to Hong Kong. From ORD to Sao Paulo you would think AA, the biggest US airlne to GRU, would have a daily nonstop but its ORD's biggest airline United. The DOT generally allows a foreign airline to fly an international route when no US airline will.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 13):
You do not throw around capacity like that (1 A380, 2 777s) on a long haul route without positive numbers, especially true in this case when there isnt even any competitors to fend off and be "forced" to keep up frequency.

Lets not forget all that cargo space that 3 flights can offer, all added to the pot.  
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Prost
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RE: Why No US Airlines On LAX-CDG Route?

Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:54 pm

If the US has open skies agreements, they DOT won't care which cities in the US foreign carriers fly to. That's the point of open skies, it allows the free market to decide where to operate, not the government.

[Edited 2014-06-01 08:55:40]

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