BigGSFO
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 48):
At what point does this become an illegal predatory attack

At no point. They aren't doing anything illegal. It's a free market.
 
Prost
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 48):
At what point does this become an illegal predatory attack?

I'm not a trust attorney, just a DL employee in Seattle. I don't see anything DL has done as 'predatory' just filling a hole in the route maps. Alaska didn't want to be purchased, which I greatly respect, therefore DL did what they saw as necessary: beef up their Seattle network. Alaska has responded with beefed up SLC operations, which can also be seen as a 'hole' in their route network. This is competition in America. I think many posters on this forum are taken aback because we haven't seen airlines expand markets as rapidly as DL has in SEA in quite sometime, as the carriers were busy manging either their bankruptcies, or their mergers. Now airlines are better able to manage their airlines, and we can see some changes happening. I think what DL is doing now is going to be small potatoes compared to what American Airlines will be able to do in a few years time.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 48):
At what point does this become an illegal predatory attack?
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 50):
At no point. They aren't doing anything illegal. It's a free market.

It becomes an issue if and only if DL engages in predatory pricing or some sort of price discrimination. Anything that can be considered anti-competitive and proved to be harming the overall competition of a market or industry. It's a very tough distinction and very difficult to prove. Saying it's a free market doesn't change the fact that there are anti-trust laws that can be broken. That being said the SEA expansion certainly hasn't even approached anti-competitive lawsuit levels.
 
dc9er
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 9:11 pm

Cmon....this is very simple.

DAL wanted to codeshare with AK. AK also wanted to code share with AMR and EK. AK started to favor AMR over DAL. DAL is busting out "Plan B".....build up SEA without AK.

Mark my words....DAL WILL build up SEA at the expense of AK. Who has deeper pockets? Who has a global network to offset the initial start-up costs? Who has an airline miles program that can take you around the world? Which overall route network would you favor if you were a SEA businessman?

DAL had a minor presence in LGA....now they dominate. Stand by for the same in SEA. Richard Anderson has forgotten more about the airline industry than most airline CEOs have learned. (He started at Texas International....YEEEEEARS AGO).

Discuss.... 
 
hiflyeras
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting Cessna172RG (Reply 41):
Several reasons behind this, but the most notable one is that I do not agree with the AS anti-nicotine "user" policy that they have in place when it comes to hiring workers.

LOL seriously??

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 31):
In the interest of fairness in this sparring on A-net, AS did outsource their fleet service (ramp) a number of years back to Menzies. We know what happens when we cast stones in glass houses.

It wouldn't be an AS post without someone bringing up the outsourcing of the ramp. As if AS was the first to outsource. Yes, it was unfair to those employees but there was plenty of blame to go around.
 
DDR
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 11:06 pm

I still think both airlines will exist side by side. As some one earlier pointed out, the majority of business (even leisure) travel in the U.S. is domestic. Yes DL has a large international presence, but many more business people travel from SEA to LAX everyday than travel from SEA-NRT as an example.

Competition is always good, it can only benefit the consumer. Choice is a good thing. DL and AS are both great airlines. The people of SEA are truly lucky to have two great carriers make a hub there.
 
Viscount724
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting dashman (Reply 27):
Considering Delta has a far superior managment team AS should probably close the doors right now as they will never be able to compete with Delta. We all know Delta is a far superior airline.

The annual Aviation Week & Space Technology "top performing airlines" survey was released a few days ago. It ranks all publicly-traded (i.e. not government-owned) airlines worldwide on many primarily financial criteria (not service and other subjective factors).

DL significantly improved their score for 2013 but AS still scored higher and ranks #3 among all North American airlines, after Allegiant and Spirit and just ahead of WestJet, and #3 worldwide for airlines with revenues between $2 billion and $6 billion, behind Copa and EasyJet.
http://aviationweek.com/awin/TPA?NL=...='mmid'&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1
 
point2point
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 11:31 pm

Well, with all of these new additions by both DL and AS, the flying public in the SEA catchment are the winners.

And the losers, well..... with all of the new combinations of AS and DL nonstops (ABQ, TPA, MSY, PVR, CUN, and maybe a few others) could the losers here be UA/WN and DEN? Probably where I'd bet a large amount of these connects would be done, eh?

 
 
Prost
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 11:37 pm

For the record, the local newscasts broadcast Alaska's press release as 'news' but ignored Delta's release.
 
flyingcat
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting DC9ER (Reply 53):
Mark my words....DAL WILL build up SEA at the expense of AK. Who has deeper pockets? Who has a global network to offset the initial start-up costs? Who has an airline miles program that can take you around the world? Which overall route network would you favor if you were a SEA businessman?

Depending on how much DL wants to "own SEA" AS may be the first victim in what many groups were worried about when approving the large airline mergers.

AA, DL & UA are now so large that they could theoretically offset any losses in moving into LCC territory and squashing them.

Looking at the entire US market SEA always did jump out as the largest hub not dominated by a legacy so in many ways AS is the biggest target with the fewest resources to fight back.
 
Prost
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Wed May 28, 2014 11:54 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 56):
The annual Aviation Week & Space Technology "top performing airlines" survey was released a few days ago. It ranks all publicly-traded (i.e. not government-owned) airlines worldwide on many primarily financial criteria (not service and other subjective factors).

I don't want to diminish Alaska Airlines great financials at all, but I don't think that is much of a consideration of the travelling public when they're booking their tickets. Delta looks on track to reduce debt further, and to produce higher profits in 2014 than in 2013, and if they are successful, their TPA (Top Performing Airlines) score will improve. I say kudos to the executive suite and finance departments at Delta, but are they then a 'better' airline than 2013?

I note that Delta had a TPA score of 59.4 versus Singapore Airline's score of 57.0. I think you can see the weakness in using this set of scores as to which carrier is 'better'.
 
IADCA
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 52):
It becomes an issue if and only if DL engages in predatory pricing or some sort of price discrimination. Anything that can be considered anti-competitive and proved to be harming the overall competition of a market or industry. It's a very tough distinction and very difficult to prove. Saying it's a free market doesn't change the fact that there are anti-trust laws that can be broken. That being said the SEA expansion certainly hasn't even approached anti-competitive lawsuit levels.

This is close. In order to prove a predatory pricing claim, you need to prove that the other entity is pricing below cost, that it will in the long run be able to recoup the short-term losses suffered by the pricing below cost (note that this typically requires proving that the pricing will drive enough competitors out of the market as to give the predator enough market share to dictate prices) and thus cause a net loss to consumers, and that the attempt to effect this scheme is likely to succeed.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 52):
It becomes an issue if and only if DL engages in predatory pricing or some sort of price discrimination. Anything that can be considered anti-competitive and proved to be harming the overall competition of a market or industry. It's a very tough distinction and very difficult to prove. Saying it's a free market doesn't change the fact that there are anti-trust laws that can be broken. That being said the SEA expansion certainly hasn't even approached anti-competitive lawsuit levels.

Wasn't NW sued for predatory practices when current DL president Richard Anderson was at the helm of NW?
 
crj200faguy
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 45):
Of course, you know how I feel about DL. That will never change. It is what it is.

Yep, we all know how you love the kool aid. Any truth to the rumor your retiree benefits are getting decreased soon?
 
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mayor
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 3:12 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 63):
Yep, we all know how you love the kool aid. Any truth to the rumor your retiree benefits are getting decreased soon?

Don't know.....hadn't heard that rumor.....or is that just something you made up to stir the pot?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 3:12 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 62):
Wasn't NW sued for predatory practices when current DL president Richard Anderson was at the helm of NW?

Dasburg was the CEO of NW from 1989-2001. The NW - NK (Spirit) predatory pricing issue occurred in 1995-1996 when NK started DTW-BOS and DTW-PHL.

The actual lawsuit carried over for many years, into the Anderson era. Either way its a moot point.

Plus, in most cases DL is still offering less capacity than AS and also not undercutting prices.
 
crj200faguy
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 3:15 am

If I wanted to stir the pot I'd say you were losing them all which would bring me great joy. Rumor has it a certain wholly owned is getting to be S3A and you are going down to S3CR. I highly doubt that because it would go against the caste system in place.
 
delimit
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 3:19 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 66):
would bring me great joy.

It's rather sad you would wish people would lose their benefits.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 66):
If I wanted to stir the pot I'd say you were losing them all which would bring me great joy. Rumor has it a certain wholly owned is getting to be S3A and you are going down to S3CR. I highly doubt that because it would go against the caste system in place.

So, basically, you have no respect for those that have come before you.......no big surprise, there. I bet you're a real joy to work with.
I always wonder how someone can become so bitter towards their employer and fellow employees. Must be something in the water, huh?


Let's see.........if this "wholly owned" is going to be an S3A, that would mean that they're the same as the active DL employees. I really doubt if this is going to happen. Purely wishful thinking from your warped little mind.



Have a nice day.



Sorry, AS folks.....didn't mean for this to get hijacked.

[Edited 2014-05-28 20:34:56]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 3:31 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 1):
You have to remember that the quality of the leadership team at DL is far superior to the leadership team at AS.
Quoting EricR (Reply 13):
I said DL's leadership team is superior to AS's leadership team.

Please define your terms to support your conclusion. Be specific.

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 35):
IT should be noted Delta has the upper hand in this battle.

Please define your terms to support your conclusion. Be specific.

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 35):
Alaska has massive oil reserves (ANWR), but only Detla has the resources to refine the oil into a viable product for the market.

Whaaa?   

Ok....you DO know that AS doesn't "have" ANWR and that DL's Trainer refinery - on the East Coast - puts the oil they've refined into Jet A and other distillates into an open market that all carriers buy from, right?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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mayor
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 4:14 am

Quoting EricR (Reply 1):
This sounds to me like it went all the way to leadership to quote. You have to remember that the quality of the leadership team at DL is far superior to the leadership team at AS. This may explain why it may appear that the AS press release was only reviewed at a junior level.

DL fanboy that I am, I'd say they're pretty equal. Each team has different things they have to work with......different fleet, network, etc. This is truly an apples and oranges comparison.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
questions
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 1:37 pm

For Alaska, to what degree is this "press" really about rallying their employees? I.e., showing them we are defending our turf. The target in advertising is not always who you think it is, eg, in this case, potential flyers.
 
seatback
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 6):
Besides, quotes from leadership in press releases are always written by communications so you can stick whose ever name you want in a press release.
Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 7):
What? AS guy outranks the DL guy by a mile or more. And the news release is about as low on the importance meter as you can get.

I work in corporate communications. The goal is to always get a senior level executive who is running the operations or strategy for the company to give you a quote. Typically, your comm/PR person doesn't play that role

By making the comment that AS seem reactionary wasn't a slam, but more of a thought that this was a reaction release instead of something that they had planned to do.

I would have done the same thing.
 
seatback
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting DC9ER (Reply 53):
Mark my words....DAL WILL build up SEA at the expense of AK. Who has deeper pockets? Who has a global network to offset the initial start-up costs? Who has an airline miles program that can take you around the world? Which overall route network would you favor if you were a SEA businessman?

You're underestimating the power of brand loyalty. I do think that if things continue to heat up, it may force AS hands to align with OW. With AS' partnerships with AA/BA and JL you can fly them pretty much anywhere Delta and its partners can. An alliance would help entice any business"man" to stick with AS.

DAL had a minor presence in LGA....now they dominate. Stand by for the same in SEA. Richard Anderson has forgotten more about the airline industry than most airline CEOs have learned. (He started at Texas International....YEEEEEARS AGO).

Dominate is a strong word to use, especially at LaGuardia. Strong, yes. Dominate, not really. Just like, no one "dominates" LAX.

Long term, not sure what this means for Seattle. The city will not be able to sustain, over a long period of time two carriers with major hubs, which may push AS to deviate from their traditional multiple partners business plan.
 
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RWA380
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 6:14 pm

Considering you are bold enough to quote me again, I'll respond"

Quoting mayor (Reply 45):
If we're talking about humble beginnings, think about this. When I hired on in '71, DL wasn't much more than a regional carrier (old definition). With the exception of a few routes, domestically, and a couple of international (MBJ, CCS) everything was east of the Mississippi (DFW, MCI, LAX,SFO, etc. excepted). When I worked at ORD, NW and EA were our biggest competitors to the southeast (at least out of ORD) and they were MUCH larger, especially EA. We were always the underdog. Probably the only place on the system where we weren't the underdog was ATL. All I'm saying is that if we're going to talk about "humble" beginnings, AS isn't the only one. You know as well as I do that DL wasn't always as large as they are today. Matter of fact, DL always occupied the #3 spot until the merger with NW. And only then did they have the #1 spot and only briefly.
That's only 5 years out of the last 85.
ALL carriers had humble beginnings, compared to where they are now. What I was saying, is that over the 30+ years AS has organically grown the NW and their SEA & PDX hubs, the public has responded very favorably.

AS has grown in size many times over in those years, the person I was replying to, had made a horribly inaccurate and volatile statement and I was trying to open his eyes to the fact that AS is obviously a shining example of great management, considering they organically grew themselves to where they are today.

How many carriers did DL suck up to be the size they are today? Now how many carriers has AS sucked up to become the carrier it is today? AS acquired SI, and kept only a small potion of the routes.

The fact the Delta name survived over the years has been little more than lucky breaks at critical times. Whoever thought the Pan Am name could disappear way back when, or TWA?

The same holds true for United and American, who all have been in bad financial straights at one time or another, and had something been different, DL, UA or AA could have been acquired by a competitor, and lost forever like PA & TW.

Quoting mayor (Reply 45):
I'll never buy the "poor little AS, they're being picked on" argument.

Of course not, you're a DL fanboy, you don't care, even if AS is being picked on, you just want DL to win, no matter how they do it.

Your'e the only one who brings this up in each and every thread that has anything to do with this subject, yet no one is saying poor little AS except you. Just because you may think it's implied, doesn't mean anyone is saying that.

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
you have no respect for those that have come before you

Respect is earned, not given just because you may be more chronologically mature than someone else. That is an old moray that has long perished, and you have tried to push this on me and others here before.

We all know that old people can be just as disrespectful as young people can, therefore a better gauge of respect is, respect given, is respect received. aka ... you get, what you give.  

[Edited 2014-05-29 11:58:30]
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777-2/3, DC8, DC9, MD80/2/7/8, D10-1/3/4, M11, L10-2/5, A300/310/319/320
AA AC AQ BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WN WP YS 8M
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):
The fact the Delta name survived over the years has been little more than lucky breaks at critical times. Whoever thought the Pan Am name could disappear way back when, or TWA?

This is hardly true. Except for a period in the early 90's and again after 9/11, Delta was the most consistently profitable major U.S. airline in history. It was long regarded as the highest quality service provider in the industry until the industry began to change dramatically with the birth of LCC's and finances deteriorated. It wasn't lucky at "critical times". Its record of financial excellence stretched over 50 years. It was dramatically more successful than each of its merger partners until NW. And even then, it was clearly the stronger airline, with the better network and the stronger brand.

Delta was in a position to survive each of its mergers as the surviving carrier because, in each case, it was the strongest airline. Implying that it was "lucky" is just as disrespectful of the Delta's heritage as some here are being towards Alaska's great tradition.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 7:28 pm

Nice post, RWA. DL fanboys/bullies certainly sound a bit defensive...dare I say threatened? What do they teach kids today? Stand up to the bully and they'll back down.

AS is implementing a well-thought strategy and I know that there's much more yet to come. AS isn't going down without a fight but it'll be a clean one. There's a reason AS wins so many awards and is well-loved by their customers...they're good people.

FYI I was at the dentist today and the hygienist asked how things were going at AS....I told her about the DL/AS thing. Her response? "Delta? To be honest they're not even on my radar." Loved it! Sounds like DL needs to spend a lot more money on brand recognition here in the PacNW.
 
AS739BSI
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 7:48 pm

From bozemanairport.com

Delta launching new Seattle service for winter season.
Bozeman Yellowstone International Airport (BZN) today announces that Delta Airlines will offer new, non-stop seasonal winter flights to Sea-Tac Airport (SEA) in Seattle, Washington. These new non-stop flights provide easy passenger access to/from the greater Seattle metropolitan area with convenient connections at Delta's SEA hub to other destinations in the airline's global route network. Delta Airlines will operate these flights using 76-seat Embraer E-175 aircraft; Flights will operate daily starting December 20, 2014 through January 4, 2015, and then on Saturdays from January 10, 2015 through March 28, 2015. These flights will depart SEA at 8:10 a.m. and arrive in BZN at 10:55 a.m., depart BZN at 11:25 a.m. and arrive in SEA at 12:25 p.m. The new flights are available for sale on Delta.com.

Alaska is already bumping summer flying to 3x daily to SEA but when you are picking up small destinations, that says quite a bit. I do wonder if DL will try to pick off more.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 75):
Implying that it was "lucky" is just as disrespectful of the Delta's heritage as some here are being towards Alaska's great tradition.

Luck is just as important as business acumen in accomplishing what DL has accomplished over the years. If you sat Anderson or any other DL exec candidly I would be shocked if they did not admit they made it to where they are today without some luck. Similarly AS has probably encountered a certain amount of luck as well.
 
catiii
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):

77 posts prior to mine over what exactly? Arguing over a quote from a senior VP (Alaska) versus a quote from a VP (Delta) in a press release?
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 78):
Luck is just as important as business acumen in accomplishing what DL has accomplished over the years. If you sat Anderson or any other DL exec candidly I would be shocked if they did not admit they made it to where they are today without some luck. Similarly AS has probably encountered a certain amount of luck as well.

Thats a lot different than the point he was making.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):
The fact the Delta name survived over the years has been little more than lucky breaks at critical times.

Examples, please. Every other carrier that DL has merged with has been smaller than DL, with, possibly, the exception of NW. Overall, NW was probably smaller.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):
Quoting mayor (Reply 68): you have no respect for those that have come before youRespect is earned, not given just because you may be more chronologically mature than someone else. That is an old moray that has long perished, and you have tried to push this on me and others here before.

Instead of "cherry picking" my posts, why not show what that post was in response to, shall we?....

Quoting mayor (Reply 68):
Quoting crj200faguy (Reply 66):If I wanted to stir the pot I'd say you were losing them all which would bring me great joy. Rumor has it a certain wholly owned is getting to be S3A and you are going down to S3CR. I highly doubt that because it would go against the caste system in place. So, basically, you have no respect for those that have come before you.......no big surprise, there. I bet you're a real joy to work with.I always wonder how someone can become so bitter towards their employer and fellow employees. Must be something in the water, huh?Let's see.........if this "wholly owned" is going to be an S3A, that would mean that they're the same as the active DL employees. I really doubt if this is going to happen. Purely wishful thinking from your warped little mind.Have a nice day.Sorry, AS folks.....didn't mean for this to get hijacked.

Whether we're talking about me or not, this sounds rather mean spirited on his part, wouldn't you say? It has to do with respect of a group, rather by age or by experience level.;


Don't forget, this whole little exchange between him and myself started because of his lack of respect for retirees, not just me. If I didn't know better, I'd say he doesn't like older folks in general. I really don't care if you don't or he doesn't respect retirees or older folks. That's why I'm not on here. I would be willing to say that there is only a handful of older retirees on here, anyway.





I'll say this again:

Quoting mayor (Reply 70):
DL fanboy that I am, I'd say they're pretty equal. Each team has different things they have to work with......different fleet, network, etc. This is truly an apples and oranges comparison.
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):
Respect is earned, not given just because you may be more chronologically mature than someone else. That is an old moray that has long perished, and you have tried to push this on me and others here before.

I never said he should give respect, just because I'm older. But I think respect should be given to those that were there before you. I just wonder if this is an extention of what I see all too often, nowadays.....disrespect for seniors in general.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):
Quoting mayor (Reply 45):I'll never buy the "poor little AS, they're being picked on" argument.Of course not, you're a DL fanboy, you don't care, even if AS is being picked on, you just want DL to win, no matter how they do it.

In the time period I was referring to, those other carriers that you mentioned were already much larger, national carriers. My point was that even as recently as the 70s, DL was still a relatively small carrier.


BTW, somewhere in here I said that I respected both executive teams and praised AS for the job they've done. However, being the DL fanboy that I am, why would I wish for DL to LOSE? I actually think that both carriers can co-exist in SEA but it will take both carriers to make that happen.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
hiflyeras
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 81):
However, being the DL fanboy that I am, why would I wish for DL to LOSE? I actually think that both carriers can co-exist in SEA but it will take both carriers to make that happen.

I think they can too. AS will be like the annoying gnat that you can't kill. I'm sure they'll be stealing customers from DL that are headed to TPA and MSY...advance bookings are excellent. Loads on the new SLC flights to the west coast are looking quite good too...better than I imagined they'd be and service hasn't even started yet. These two are going to be going at for years...or come to some sort of agreement to co-exist.
 
dc9er
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 73):
Dominate is a strong word to use, especially at LaGuardia. Strong, yes. Dominate, not really.

Long term, not sure what this means for Seattle. The city will not be able to sustain, over a long period of time two carriers with major hubs, which may push AS to deviate from their traditional multiple partners business plan.

Dominate means operating the right flights to the right destinations to achieve the maximum yield....IOW $$$$.

DAL wanted LGA & got it. Now they want SEA, and will get it. AK refused to provide the feed for DAL's growing INTL presence.....so DAL will grow it themselves. DAL & AK might co-exist in SEA, but AK's bottom line will suffer.

Don't think it can happen......ask any USAir pilot that used to be based in BWI or PIT. Or an AMR pilot that used to be based in RDU, BNA, or SJC. Or any former MW pilot. Hubs can change dominate carriers. SEA is no different.

Consider my earlier comments about deep pockets, worldwide presence, Management experience, and overall critical mass & make up your own mind.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 82):
I think they can too. AS will be like the annoying gnat that you can't kill. I'm sure they'll be stealing customers from DL that are headed to TPA and MSY...advance bookings are excellent. Loads on the new SLC flights to the west coast are looking quite good too...better than I imagined they'd be and service hasn't even started yet. These two are going to be going at for years...or come to some sort of agreement to co-exist.

DL and AA fought, tooth and nail, for years at DFW and we know how that ended up. Part of the problem at DFW was that AA controlled the ramp movements, even for DL flights. They could make DL flights, if they so chose, late to the gate or late to push out OR they could get them stuck in traffic, trying to get to a taxiway. Oddly enough DL controlled the ramp movements for part of AA's flights at ORD (the ones adjacent to L concourse) when DL was using L concourse, but that wasn't anywhere near the same scale as DFW.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Prost
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:02 pm

Many of these boards think that the DL/AS dynamic is going to push AS closer to AA. I get this, amd it makes sense to a point. There are two questions I have with the AA/AS scenario, first is will the AA labor groups/contracts allow for significantly increased code sharing? The second question I have is, do the AS executives have a wariness about increasing ties to another domestic carrier so they don't find themselves in a similar situation, substituting LAX for SEA and AA for DL?

I know the new AA has only been together for a few months now, but right out of the box they are performing brilliantly. I'm sure there will be hiccups in the future, but currently, AA is a powerhouse. If I were in the executive suite at Alaska, I'd be as wary of the new powerhouse of the industry as I was of the last powerhouse of the industry.
 
EricR
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 69):


Quoting EricR (Reply 1):
You have to remember that the quality of the leadership team at DL is far superior to the leadership team at AS.
Quoting EricR (Reply 13):
I said DL's leadership team is superior to AS's leadership team.

Please define your terms to support your conclusion. Be specific.


Sure. This conclusion is based on the accomplishments of each management team relative to the challenges they have been faced with.

AS management has not faced the number nor degree of challenges that DL has faced over the past several years. DL's management has been faced with many challenges and has overcome those challenges successfully. I give AS's management credit that they did not "sink the ship", but it is easy to put up good financial numbers and claim greatness when not faced with the same challenges or adversity as the competition. Now that AS has to face serious competition with another carrier, everyone on the AS side is crying foul when in reality it is fair.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting dc9er (Reply 83):
AK refused to provide the feed for DAL's growing INTL presence

Get your facts right. AS refused to enter into an exclusive agreement with DL...not only in SEA but dropping other code shares and marketing agreements with ALL other carriers and having DL as their exclusive partner. DL demanded exclusivity and AS refused. That is how this all started.


Quoting dc9er (Reply 83):
Don't think it can happen......ask any USAir pilot that used to be based in BWI or PIT. Or an AMR pilot that used to be based in RDU, BNA, or SJC. Or any former MW pilot. Hubs can change dominate carriers. SEA is no different.

AS has essentially driven UA and WN out of SEA and controls 50% of the traffic out of SEA. DL badly underestimates AS. Not sure what AA turning tail in SJC after the tech crash or US abandoning PIT has to do with any of this. MW? Please....
 
Prost
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:22 pm

Honestly, I think the executives of Alaska and Delta are both bright enough to not underesrimate each other. I've never once heard a Delta executive speak about wanting to squash Alaska, nor have I read an Alaska executive saying that Delta won't be a competitive threat because they are Atlanta carpetbaggers.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 85):
I know the new AA has only been together for a few months now, but right out of the box they are performing brilliantly. I'm sure there will be hiccups in the future, but currently, AA is a powerhouse. If I were in the executive suite at Alaska, I'd be as wary of the new powerhouse of the industry as I was of the last powerhouse of the industry.

Since UA has all but given up on the Northwest while DL has decided to try to take all the marbles, it seems to me that the natural thing is for AS to replace its DL/AA connections, originally intended to serve as a counterweight to 800-pound gorilla UA, with UA/AA connections. I wouldn't be surprised if there are quiet talks between AS and UA to do just that.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 88):
they are Atlanta carpetbaggers.



Which isn't true, either as DL has been operating in SEA since 1980 in one form or another.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Prost
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Thu May 29, 2014 11:47 pm

No, I understand, I'm just trying to summarize the rhetoric. The point I was making is I believe the respective executive suites respect the abilities of the other, although I can see where they may not respect the results.

A lot of fingers point to 'blame' such as DL demanding AS being exclusive to them, others point to the strange PR event with both CEOs, right before DL started the SEA build up. As there haven't been lawsuits filed, and the code share agreement is still in place, I assume both parties are in compliance with the agreement. I also assume that there were unintended consequences with these agreements that we're seeing now.

In the end I assume that both carriers will be adding and tweaking their schedules out of SEA, and I'd like it if there were good natured competitive spirit at play. It makes all of us employees sharpen our pencils, and as RA would say 'Keep our backpacks on'.
 
EricR
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RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 12:05 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 74):

AS has grown in size many times over in those years, the person I was replying to, had made a horribly inaccurate and volatile statement and I was trying to open his eyes to the fact that AS is obviously a shining example of great management, considering they organically grew themselves to where they are today.

How many carriers did DL suck up to be the size they are today? Now how many carriers has AS sucked up to become the carrier it is today? AS acquired SI, and kept only a small potion of the routes.

Interesting. While you point out this fact as a positive decision made by AS management, I think this is a very poor decision by AS management and hence the dilemma they are faced with today.

If AS management had the foresight (like Doug Parker did), they would have concluded several years ago that the "go it alone" strategy would not work for them long term. In addition, for many years AS management put too many of their eggs in one basket (ie.- their Seattle hub). This insular approach and one main hub strategy put a lot of unnecessary risk on the AS network. Now that another airline is trying to claim SEA as its hub, AS is faced with a difficult road ahead.
 
hiflyeras
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 91):
As there haven't been lawsuits filed, and the code share agreement is still in place, I assume both parties are in compliance with the agreement.

Things are already unraveling. DL has or will be ending code-share on most AS flights. A couple of good articles:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...rship-is-over-is-a-big-call-159783

http://m.travelweekly.com/3_article?guid=257896&t=1&s=1&from=1_tab1
 
Triple7Lr
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 93):
Things are already unraveling. DL has or will be ending code-share on most AS flights. A couple of good articles:

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...rship-is-over-is-a-big-call-159783

http://m.travelweekly.com/3_article?guid=257896&t=1&s=1&from=1_tab1




Both are interesting reads. I'm a little concerned about AS move to add additional frequencies out of SEA after their CEO has already acknowledged there's already too much capacity in SEA in the first article. It looks like they're contradicting themselves.
 
TPA0822
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:52 pm

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 12:55 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 76):
FYI I was at the dentist today and the hygienist asked how things were going at AS....I told her about the DL/AS thing. Her response? "Delta? To be honest they're not even on my radar."

Do you follow her stock tips, too?

I wonder how many trips your hygienist makes per year. Probably close to zero.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2049
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 1:01 am

Quoting TPA0822 (Reply 95):
Do you follow her stock tips, too?

I wonder how many trips your hygienist makes per year. Probably close to zero.

Doing just fine in that regard, thank you.

And the point was that DL maybe does not have the brand recognition in this corner of the country that they might elsewhere. Just like AS is burdened with the assumption that they only fly to Alaska, do people in Seattle assume that Delta mainly just flies to Atlanta?
 
TPA0822
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:52 pm

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 96):
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 96):
Doing just fine in that regard, thank you.

And the point was that DL maybe does not have the brand recognition in this corner of the country that they might elsewhere. Just like AS is burdened with the assumption that they only fly to Alaska, do people in Seattle assume that Delta mainly just flies to Atlanta?

I am, too.  

As far as brand recognition, DL has inked deals with the Seahawks and Sounders, and I'm sure there will be a major advertising blitz coming soon. The perception that DL only flies to ATL is probably already gone, based on their international offerings.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2201
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 96):
And the point was that DL maybe does not have the brand recognition in this corner of the country that they might elsewhere.

Just that corner of the dental office, really. And they will see DL on the radar soon enough when DL buys AS.
  
 
questions
Posts: 2013
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:51 am

RE: DL & AS: The Battle Of The Press Releases

Fri May 30, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 98):
And they will see DL on the radar soon enough when DL buys AS.

When IS Delta going to buy Alaska?

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