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gdg9
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WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:05 pm

Had a hard time finding this on a search, although it must have been brought up before. I'm looking for info (prices, number of frames) etc on the deal WN has to pick up old AS 737s. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
@dfwtower
 
as739x
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:08 pm

I believe they just bought 3 73G's from AS. The 73G just doesn't fit into AS plans anymore. They were brought in for reasons that the 738 can now cover. I'll see if I can find the total amount sold for you.
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Iloveboeing
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:18 pm

Would WN also be interested in picking up DL's 73Gs? I saw someone on the a.net post that DL wasn't happy with them.
 
airplanedaj
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 2):
I saw someone on the a.net post that DL wasn't happy with them.

From what I read on this site, DL uses them for specific routes that can't handle any other mainline aircraft, such as ATL-EYW.

WN loves the 73G for their MDW flying and smaller markets that only WN could make a 737 work on. Good for them for looking to pick up a few more.

[Edited 2014-05-29 10:23:19]
 
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gdg9
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 1):
I believe they just bought 3 73G's from AS

Thanks!
@dfwtower
 
727LOVER
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 1):
The 73G just doesn't fit into AS plans anymore

Can you elaborate on that, please?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
deltairlines
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 2):

Would WN also be interested in picking up DL's 73Gs? I saw someone on the a.net post that DL wasn't happy with them.
Quoting airplanedaj (Reply 3):
From what I read on this site, DL uses them for specific routes that can't handle any other mainline aircraft, such as ATL-EYW.

Delta's 73Gs aren't going anywhere. They are a niche plane in the fleet but operate very specific missions for a lot of their flying. TGU, BOG, EYW and a few more need the performance of this aircraft.
 
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Stitch
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:41 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 1):
The 73G just doesn't fit into AS plans anymore.
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):
Can you elaborate on that, please?

AS doesn't have a mission that the 737-700 can do that a 737-800 cannot and the trip costs are so close that the extra seats on the 737-800 are effectively "free". If AS can sell them on a flight, they make more profit. If they cannot, it doesn't negatively impact the economics of the flight.
 
dbo861
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 5:47 pm

Is AS getting rid of all of their 73Gs? If so, I wonder if all of them will eventually end up in WN's fleet. How many 73Gs does AS have left in their fleet? These could provide some quick growth for WN whenever they decide to start growing again.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
Is AS getting rid of all of their 73Gs?

Eventually. The timeframe for disposing of the remaining 14 737-700s is still unclear.

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
I wonder if all of them will eventually end up in WN's fleet.

I doubt it. There are still takers out there other than WN for well-maintained 737-700s.
 
SWADawg
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):

Not as many as you might think. WN is getting smoking deals on these used frames precisely because Airlines like AS don't want to fly them anymore. Think DL taking the 717's and MD90's. WN will gladly be your huckleberry if you don't want your 73G's anymore.
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AA737-823
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 6:27 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
I wonder if all of them will eventually end up in WN's fleet.

Impossible at this point, because some have already gone to China's Lucky Air!!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 6:57 pm

I can't see any route AS fly's that would have to have a 737-700. saves money and makes everything easier to have less plane types.

southwest on the other hand probably would live done 737-700s to get the 717s gone sooner.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 7:11 pm

Interesting that AS is selling these to WN. I remember when AS was disposing of their MD80's that they wouldn't sell them to G4 as they considered them a competitor. Maybe WN isn't considered one as much these days....even though they're starting n/s SEA-SAN, PDX-SEA. Meanwhile, WN is dropping SEA-SLC and PDX-SLC.
 
KELPkid
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 8:26 pm

Is WN actually buying them, or are they leasing them? The reason I ask is that the series where the N-numbers were placed (N55x...WN or SW) used to be reserved for leased aircraft (although it was 737 classics that previously inhabited this number range...).
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usxguy
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 8:54 pm

I was under the impression that Alaska was keeping 6 737-700s and converting them into combi's...
xx
 
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Stitch
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Is WN actually buying them, or are they leasing them? The reason I ask is that the series where the N-numbers were placed (N55x...WN or SW) used to be reserved for leased aircraft (although it was 737 classics that previously inhabited this number range...).

I believe AS has returned all of their leased 737-700 airframes and what remains are owned airframes.
 
Yflyer
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 1):
They were brought in for reasons that the 738 can now cover.

Just out of curiosity what were those reasons? Greater range?
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 15):
I was under the impression that Alaska was keeping 6 737-700s and converting them into combi's...

Still under consideration I believe.

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 17):
Just out of curiosity what were those reasons? Greater range?

As I recall the -800 didn't exist at the time AS bought the -700's. They realized they needed more capacity so started purchasing -900's but the -800 had the sweet spot for range and capacity for AS so that became the aircraft of choice for some years. Today it's the -900ER...seats 181 in two classes and the range of the -800. -700's have the greater range of all the variations but a higher CASM compared to the -800, -900 and -900ER.
 
cschleic
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 10:33 pm

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
How many 73Gs does AS have left in their fleet?

According to their site updated in May, 14 73G's.

http://www.alaskaair.com/content/about-us/newsroom/as-fleet.aspx
 
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seabosdca
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 18):
As I recall the -800 didn't exist at the time AS bought the -700's. They realized they needed more capacity so started purchasing -900's but the -800 had the sweet spot for range and capacity for AS so that became the aircraft of choice for some years.

Both the -700 and -800 were on offer when Alaska made its first -700 order. The airline misjudged its capacity needs and the -800's payload-range potential.
 
YYCSpotter
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 11:47 pm

Wasn't WN also picking up a few of WS older 73Gs? What will be/have been the tail numbers sold?
 
Prost
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 11:49 pm

A rare misstep on Alaska's part. Did they underestimate the demand that they created in the west, or were they disappointed in the 737-900 (non ER) performance?
 
32andBelow
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Thu May 29, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 22):
Did they underestimate the demand that they created in the west, or were they disappointed in the 737-900 (non ER) performance?

900 are weight restricted on longer routes, that is why they do not deploy non ER on SEA/BOS and other transcons, unless they absolutely have to.
 
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SANFan
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 12:01 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 13):
Maybe WN isn't considered one as much these days....even though they're starting n/s SEA-SAN, PDX-SEA.

Hey 'Flyer', I think you meant 'PDX-SAN' instead of 'PDX-SEA'.   Plus, don't forget that WN also is starting SAN-MCO on June 8 as well!. That's 3 of AS's toes that WN is treading on, but there seems to be little or no notice by AS -- in SAN anyway.

bb
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 24):
Hey 'Flyer', I think you meant 'PDX-SAN' instead of 'PDX-SEA'.

Thanks, buddy!   And yes, SAN-MCO! I knew there was another one but it slipped my mind. Hoping that AS doesn't get cold feet on that route...took a while to warm up and the initial redeye east didn't help any. 5x weekly and a day flight did the trick...nearly always full these days! I think if anyone blinks it'll be WN.
 
KELPkid
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
AS doesn't have a mission that the 737-700 can do that a 737-800 cannot and the trip costs are so close that the extra seats on the 737-800 are effectively "free". If AS can sell them on a flight, they make more profit. If they cannot, it doesn't negatively impact the economics of the flight.

I'm assuming, though, that AS has to pay an extra flight attendant on a 737-800 flight (assuming that they don't have some sort of nonstandard seating arrangement where the number of passenger seats on an -800 is 149 or less?).
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KELPkid
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
I believe AS has returned all of their leased 737-700 airframes and what remains are owned airframes.
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 13):
Interesting that AS is selling these to WN. I remember when AS was disposing of their MD80's that they wouldn't sell them to G4 as they considered them a competitor. Maybe WN isn't considered one as much these days....even though they're starting n/s SEA-SAN, PDX-SEA. Meanwhile, WN is dropping SEA-SLC and PDX-SLC.

Which leads me to believe that WN isn't buying them directly from AS, but rather either buying them from a leasing company, or maybe even just leasing them   
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N1120A
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 2):
Would WN also be interested in picking up DL's 73Gs? I saw someone on the a.net post that DL wasn't happy with them.

DL can use them for certain missions. SNA comes to mind. EYW also. UA is keeping both the 73G and A319 for the foreseeable future

Quoting airplanedaj (Reply 3):
WN loves the 73G for their MDW flying and smaller markets that only WN could make a 737 work on. Good for them for looking to pick up a few more.

They also run it with an efficient seating configuration, out of SNA, and are incremental in their work.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 5):
Quoting as739x (Reply 1):
The 73G just doesn't fit into AS plans anymore

Can you elaborate on that, please?

They don't need its range and 738 costs are more friendly, per seat.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 9):
I doubt it. There are still takers out there other than WN for well-maintained 737-700s.

Sure, but not with the volume.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 13):
I remember when AS was disposing of their MD80's that they wouldn't sell them to G4 as they considered them a competitor.

Very different. WN and AS have co-existed for years. G4 acts disruptively, and targeted AS' home market aggressively.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 18):
As I recall the -800 didn't exist at the time AS bought the -700's.

It did, but it had a couple issues:

1) It didn't have as much range yet. The -800 now has about as much range as a non-wingletted -700.

2) The jump in capacity was a scary thing, and people didn't know how to deal with it yet.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 26):
I'm assuming, though, that AS has to pay an extra flight attendant on a 737-800 flight (assuming that they don't have some sort of nonstandard seating arrangement where the number of passenger seats on an -800 is 149 or less?).


Yes, but that is a negligible add to the trip costs. 1 passenger pays the FA cost.
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Prost
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 1:30 am

I always thought that AS could use the 73G for deep forays in to Central America.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 2:06 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 29):
I always thought that AS could use the 73G for deep forays in to Central America.

The 737MAX variants can do that. Just sayin'.  
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
newhaven
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 2:19 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
Is AS getting rid of all of their 73Gs?

Sure .. just replace them with Horizon Dash 8-400s . They think that horrible little prop mess is a perfectly acceptable subsititute for a jet ... even on a 2:45 flight .... so why not a 4 or 5 hour one too?

Noise, vibration, tiny uncomfortable commuter plane seat, no running water lav ... awesome !
 
travaz
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 2:26 am

With the sale of the 717 by WN to DL the purchase of the 737's should be cash impact neutral.
 
jetstar
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting travaz (Reply 32):
With the sale of the 717 by WN to DL the purchase of the 737's should be cash impact neutral.

I believe DL is leasing, not buying the 717’s from the leasing companies that owns them

JetStar
 
Viscount724
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting newhaven (Reply 31):
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 8):
Is AS getting rid of all of their 73Gs?

Sure .. just replace them with Horizon Dash 8-400s . They think that horrible little prop mess is a perfectly acceptable subsititute for a jet ... even on a 2:45 flight .... so why not a 4 or 5 hour one too?

Noise, vibration, tiny uncomfortable commuter plane seat, no running water lav ... awesome !

The Q400 isn't so tiny. Overall length and wingspan are both greater than a 737-200, and within 2 feet in both dimensions of 737-300.

And whether they're uncomfortable and have no running water depends on the carrier. Try Porter's Q400's with 34" pitch. Much more comfortable than most Y class jets. And no middle seats.

Running water in the lavatories is an option. Many Q400s have it.
 
KELPkid
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 3:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 18):As I recall the -800 didn't exist at the time AS bought the -700's.
It did, but it had a couple issues:

1) It didn't have as much range yet. The -800 now has about as much range as a non-wingletted -700.

2) The jump in capacity was a scary thing, and people didn't know how to deal with it yet.

But AS also flew the 737-400, which had the same fuselage length as the 738 does...but not nearly the range of the NG. So they had experience with that much passenger capacity. Didn't the MD-80 slot in between the 73G and the 738 on passenger seats?
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SXDFC
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 4:36 am

The -700s in the above picture are some of many that will be making their way into the WN fleet. The WS -700s should be entering the fleet sometime within the next few months as well too.. Since the secondhand -700 fleet is growing more and more, I figured I'd "recap" all of the secondhand -700s that WN is currently acquiring, not the ones already in the fleet.

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N7814*- ex China Southern B-2163
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N559WN - ex Enerjet C-GZEJ
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N562WN- ex Alaska Airlines N624AS
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RyanairGuru
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 5:39 am

Virgin Australia are retiring their remaining 700s this year (I think they've only got 2 left now) and I wouldn't be surprised if those go to WN as well as they have previously taken ex-VA frames.

Quoting newhaven (Reply 31):
Noise, vibration, tiny uncomfortable commuter plane

We've had this conversation before, in which you admit to having never flown on the Q400 because you avoid it for all the reasons you cite. Fair enough, you can spend your money however you like. But its gets a bit old when you post this misinformation in every thread, even though most posters who have flown the Q400 point that it isn't like that.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 12:58 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 33):
I believe DL is leasing, not buying the 717’s from the leasing companies that owns them

DL is indeed leasing the 717's. The 73G's seem to fit a specific need but I have always wondered about the cost effectiveness of having a subfleet of only ten frames.

When I saw pictures on a.net of 73G's being scrapped I wondered why WN had not picked them up unless the leasors felt the sum of the parts was worth more than the whole aircraft.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
MIflyer12
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 29):

I always thought that AS could use the 73G for deep forays in to Central America.

Because SEA is such an obvious hub to Central America?!

Even LAX has a fairly limited Central American footprint. SEA-Central America demand can be very efficiently hubbed over DFW or IAH.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 2:06 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 35):
But AS also flew the 737-400, which had the same fuselage length as the 738 does...but not nearly the range of the NG. So they had experience with that much passenger capacity. Didn't the MD-80 slot in between the 73G and the 738 on passenger seats?

AS's 737-400s are configured at 12F 128Y....the 737-800's at 16F 141Y or 147Y (with new Recaro seats). Both have the same seat pitch. The -400 is 119 feet in length, the -800 is 129 feet and the -900 is 138 feet.
 
727LOVER
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
AS doesn't have a mission that the 737-700 can do that a 737-800 cannot and the trip costs are so close that the extra seats on the 737-800 are effectively "free". If AS can sell them on a flight, they make more profit. If they cannot, it doesn't negatively impact the economics of the flight.

But wasn't the -700 & -800 available at the same time? So why did they buy the -700?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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Stitch
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 2:27 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 41):
But wasn't the -700 & -800 available at the same time? So why did they buy the -700?

The -700 entered service about a year prior to the -800.

According to Boeing's O&D page, AS ordered the -700, -800 and -900 effectively simultaneously, but Boeing will retroactively adjust the orders to reflect model changes at delivery. So AS may have ordered all three models up front, or may have ordered just the -700 and later converted positions to the -800 and -900.

As to why AS ordered both, that I cannot say. The AS fleet at the time was MD-82/MD-83 and 737-400s and the -700 is smaller than both. So it may be that AS was looking at something smaller for new routes or for performance out of limited fields (like John Wayne / Orange County).

I do know that once AS had both the -700 and -800 in their fleet for a time, they determined the trip costs were so close the -800 was the better choice going forward and that is the model they chose to go forward with (along with the -900ER).
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
According to Boeing's O&D page, AS ordered the -700, -800 and -900 effectively simultaneously,

I don't believe that's true. AS had the -700 and -900 ordered and in service well before the -800.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 12):
I can't see any route AS fly's that would have to have a 737-700. saves money and makes everything easier to have less plane types.

The 737-700 would be required if AS chose to get into the SNA-Hawaii market. However, their -700s aren't ETOPS equipped and it's apparently not a cost effective retrofit. If AS had ETOPS equipped or provisioned -700s, that market might have worked for them.
 
Prost
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 39):

Because SEA is such an obvious hub to Central America?!

Even LAX has a fairly limited Central American footprint. SEA-Central America demand can be very efficiently hubbed over DFW or IAH.

I was thinking LAX, SAN or SJC, cities that would have more of a market, and AS is a known and trusted brand.
 
chrisair
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 22):
Did they underestimate the demand that they created in the west, or were they disappointed in the 737-900 (non ER) performance?

The 700s came on line before the 900s did. I remember flying them in 1999, and I remember I happened to stumble upon the -900 delivery party in SEA (I still have an Alaska 737-900 launch customer pin somewhere).

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 40):
the 737-800's at 16F 141Y or 147Y (with new Recaro seats). Both have the same seat pitch.

I beg to differ. Despite what the marketing material says, the pitch is NOT the same between the old and new seats. Especially in F.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
So it may be that AS was looking at something smaller for new routes or for performance out of limited fields (like John Wayne / Orange County).

The 73G came online to operate a lot of "new" routes for them. SEA-MIA, ANC-ORD, SEA-IAD, SEA-Mexico etc were just a few of the routes they used them on. Remember, back in 1997, Alaska was a completely different carrier. I believe the farthest east they flew (other than Russia) was PHX or ZIH.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
So AS may have ordered all three models up front, or may have ordered just the -700 and later converted positions to the -800 and -900.

AS was the launch customer for the -900 and ordered the -700s many years prior to the -800s. I believe the -800s came on after the -900s weren't working out with range and performance issues.
 
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Stitch
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Fri May 30, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 43):
I don't believe that's true. AS had the -700 and -900 ordered and in service well before the -800.
Quoting chrisair (Reply 46):
AS was the launch customer for the -900 and ordered the -700s many years prior to the -800s. I believe the -800s came on after the -900s weren't working out with range and performance issues.

So that fits with my suggestion that AS converted earlier orders for the -700 and/or -900 to the -800 once it came time for production to start and Boeing, per policy, retroactively changed the model from -700/-900 to -800 at that time on their O&D page.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Sat May 31, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 39):

Because SEA is such an obvious hub to Central America?!

Even LAX has a fairly limited Central American footprint. SEA-Central America demand can be very efficiently hubbed over DFW or IAH.

Perhaps, but then again, it can offered over LAX. If AS wants to enter the market, and if they have a strong enough network in the west to feed the flights, it might work out for them.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
According to Boeing's O&D page, AS ordered the -700, -800 and -900 effectively simultaneously, but Boeing will retroactively adjust the orders to reflect model changes at delivery. So AS may have ordered all three models up front, or may have ordered just the -700 and later converted positions to the -800 and -900.

IIRC, they initially received just two -800's to try them out, then subsequently followed up with an order for 35.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 46):
The 73G came online to operate a lot of "new" routes for them. SEA-MIA, ANC-ORD, SEA-IAD, SEA-Mexico etc were just a few of the routes they used them on. Remember, back in 1997, Alaska was a completely different carrier. I believe the farthest east they flew (other than Russia) was PHX or ZIH.

We flew SEA-PVR nonstop on the MD's, so while the -700's certainly made easy work of some of these routes, AS had the metal to fly many of them. However, the -700 was much more efficient, that's for sure.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: WN Buying AS 737s

Sat May 31, 2014 3:15 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 35):
But AS also flew the 737-400, which had the same fuselage length as the 738 does

The 738 is actually a quite substantial (10-foot) stretch from the 734 -- three rows of economy for most operators.

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