mandala499
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 148):
'Bomb' comes first in my book. 'Hijack' or 'Pilot suicide' come next, in that order - less likely because of the VERY short timescale. 'Mechanical Problem' currently comes last.

So... Kabooom... and the satcom logs are ? Elvis' playing music?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
NAV30
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:18 am

OK, mandala499 mate, what are YOUR theories?
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:21 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 150):
So... Kabooom... and the satcom logs are ? Elvis' playing music?

I have tried to keep up with the threads since day one, but I cannot remember if this question has been raised/answered yet. The AES ID uniquely ties 9M-MRO to a set of satcom data that has been released in raw form in the satcom logs. Is there any place in this data where the AES ID is specified? And if so, have we verified that the AES ID in the logs matches the known AES ID of 9M-MRO?

[Edited 2014-06-01 00:26:57]
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:31 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 137):
777Jet, as it happens, contact with civilian radar was lost straight away. Military radar picked up an echo in the vicinity, but initially classified it as 'unidentified.'

I was not discussing your theory. I was discussing the reference WP made in the below post to your theory:

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 133):
Wow, here's some confirmation of NAV30's theory!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...08/i-think-i-saw-mh370-127132.html

What I was saying is that that article WP suggested was "some confirmation of NAV30's theory" was in fact nothing of the sort as the witness in that article claims of a possible sighting of MH370 in a totally different area to that where NAV30 thinks the plane went down. If the witness in that article is correct then NAV30's theory is wrong.
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NAV30
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:36 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 153):
If the witness in that article is correct then NAV30's theory is wrong.

That webpage doesn't 'come up' any more, 777Jet?
 
Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:43 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 152):
have we verified that the AES ID in the logs matches the known AES IS of 9M-MRO?

Inmarsat puts its name behind the published log as being from 9M-MRO(AES ID is in the 2nd column of the original log file but is not shown in the extract). That's good enough!
FYI, the AES ID is a 24 bit field that appears in many of the packets shown in the log. But we only have the protocol logic, not the actual data packet contents.

[Edited 2014-06-01 00:46:35]
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:44 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 154):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 153):
If the witness in that article is correct then NAV30's theory is wrong.

That webpage doesn't 'come up' any more, 777Jet?

In case you didn't realise, I am not the one who originally posted the link!!!

Perhaps is was a hoax?

Perhaps it was legit?

Regardless, the supposed area where the plane was sighted as mentioned in the article was not in the Gulf of Thailand, where you think it is. The area was:

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 135):
The sail boat in question was transitioning from the Indian Ocean to the straight of Mallaca. If you continue reading the posts on that forum he claims to be close to Bandar Aceh and the plane flying a southerly direction 10 to 20 thousand feet above them, so at half normal cruising altitude.

So, like I said, if that witness is correct then your Gulf of Thailand theory is not so that article does not confirm your theory like WP originally mentioned here:

Quoting WarrenPlatts (Reply 133):
Wow, here's some confirmation of NAV30's theory!

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...08/i-think-i-saw-mh370-127132.html

I did not post that link to begin with, so you might want to question the person who did if you would like to query it because I don't think much of it at all... Just another observation, like the NZ oil rig worker that came to nothing... Could even be a hoax...
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CabSauv
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:44 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 154):
hat webpage doesn't 'come up' any more, 777Jet?

since it disappeared ? around 40 min ? after you last read it ? we can assume the page went down? around then?
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:48 am

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 157):
Quoting NAV30 (Reply 154):
hat webpage doesn't 'come up' any more, 777Jet?

since it disappeared ? around 40 min ? after you last read it ? we can assume the page went down? around then?

That is gold!

At least we can all witness that the web page 'is' down by checking the link!

Maybe if it magically re-appears, after passing through 'web traffic control' zones , MH370 could also magically re-appear?  

[Edited 2014-06-01 00:49:32]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:57 am

You can't click on the link when it's quoted. It isn't reproduced correctly. You have to find the original link.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...08/i-think-i-saw-mh370-127132.html
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):
At least we can all witness that the web page 'is' down by checking the link!

Comes up OK for me. The original link from reply 133, that is.

[Edited 2014-06-01 00:58:23]

[Edited 2014-06-01 00:58:56]
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 158):
At least we can all witness that the web page 'is' down by checking the link!

The web page is not down. On this forum, only the orignal links (and not quoted links) work (in reply #133).

I find the story not credible at all, especially surfacing three months after the accident.
 
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p51tang
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:59 am

Let me find MH370, Kiwi says

Quote:
Seattle-based Rob McCallum said, given the time and resources, his team could do what government search agencies had been unable to do thus far.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/10108231/Let-me-find-MH370-Kiwi-says

Well o.k....40 degrees very close to Antarctica all good to go.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 161):
I find the story not credible at all, especially surfacing three months after the accident.

Likewise. Maybe somebody confused their dream with reality...

Quoting p51tang (Reply 162):
Let me find MH370, Kiwi says

Good luck to whoever gets the contract...
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YoungMans
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:20 am

[

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 156):
Just another observation, like the NZ oil rig worker that came to nothing... Could even be a hoax...

The sailing boat story sounds fishy..!
Anyone on watch, even on a (relative) small sailing boat knows the time when they are on and would also know the time, at least roughly, if something like that did happen. If they really saw a burning plane, they most likely would have turned around and radio the authorities. A burning plane is not like just another albatross flying by, it would sure start the adrenalin pumping.

With the NZ oilrig bloke it seems different. There is an image of an e-mail he apparently sent to the authorities but nobody wanted to know anything about it. I believe the media never followed that up either.

[Edited 2014-06-01 01:25:28]
 
LTC8K6
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:50 am

Whenever I see a flaming jumbo airliner go by at FL150, I forget about it right away...
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 161):
The web page is not down. On this forum, only the orignal links (and not quoted links) work (in reply #133).

Thanks. I am able to view it again.

I wonder if the poster europaflyer, who posted post #48 on page 4 including a link to a thread about the 777 fire suppression system from a.net, is also a member here  
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Kaiarahi
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:25 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 120):
The conspiracy theorists would love what I just got from the phone call I got from Malaysia this evening.
Seems that the government may be hell bent at trying to get this blamed on the captain no matter what...

That would explain at least one of the posters here   

On a more sober note, my former colleagues in YUL tell me that there is discussion at the highest levels of ICAO on whether it is possible to take the investigation lead away from Malaysia.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
CabSauv
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:51 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 167):
there is discussion at the highest levels of ICAO on whether it is possible to take the investigation lead away from Malaysia.

Without wanting to join our tin foil brethren on here, that would without doubt be positive if it eventuates.

Like one one of our rugby players said "Sweating like a Gypsy with a mortgage" - that could potentially describe a few officials in Malaysia
 
Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:24 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 167):
On a more sober note, my former colleagues in YUL tell me that there is discussion at the highest levels of ICAO on whether it is possible to take the investigation lead away from Malaysia.

IMO if this case helps strengthen ICAO rules re. how air accident investigations should be conducted and by whom, then MH370 will have served a useful purpose, no matter what its tragic outcome is.
 
ltbewr
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:14 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 167):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 120):The conspiracy theorists would love what I just got from the phone call I got from Malaysia this evening. Seems that the government may be hell bent at trying to get this blamed on the captain no matter what...That would explain at least one of the posters here On a more sober note, my former colleagues in YUL tell me that there is discussion at the highest levels of ICAO on whether it is possible to take the investigation lead away from Malaysia.


There is no doubt that the Malaysian government, including the military, would love to blame it on the pilot to cover their incompetence and failure to realize the a/c had gone missing until too late to follow up on as well as their horrible handling of the investigation.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:01 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 120):
The conspiracy theorists would love what I just got from the phone call I got from Malaysia this evening.
Seems that the government may be hell bent at trying to get this blamed on the captain no matter what... to cover up for a lot of embarrassment such as MH' seemingly impending bankruptcy, etc, etc, etc, and also to have an excuse to paint Anwar supporters with whatever the govt can throw at them. Seems that evidence of the Captain's schedule and roster has been "taken away" now, and is not accessible, and no one in MH seems to want to talk.

It would be a shame if this was an accident but they get away with blaming the captain for "suicide".

And if they want this to look like it's the captain's fault, they haven't tried well enough... *looks like they're screwing it up instead*

Do you realise that MH370 *MIGHT* be the Captain's fault?

*IF* MH370 was somehow caused by the Captain, it would be a shame if the word goes around that the Captain is being made to look like a scapegoat when he may not be the scapegoat but rather the cause.

Hopefully the plane is found and hopefully there is enough evidence to learn what really happened to silence ALL of the rumors...
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 167):
On a more sober note, my former colleagues in YUL tell me that there is discussion at the highest levels of ICAO on whether it is possible to take the investigation lead away from Malaysia.

What would be different then?

Australia is handling the search & recovery effort assisted by China and Malaysia.

The only data available regarding the actual flight is Inmarsat satellite data and various primary and secondary radar plots which have already been submitted to the investigation team. The actual analysis is performed by NTSB, Inmarsat and Boeing according to the ATSB documents.

I agree that the communication has been less than optimal. That probably would change if the investigation lead was more professional.
 
Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 172):
The only data available regarding the actual flight is Inmarsat satellite data and various primary and secondary radar plots which have already been submitted to the investigation team. The actual analysis is performed by NTSB, Inmarsat and Boeing according to the ATSB documents.

We do not really know what data exists in total and what fraction has been shared by the Minister of Defence of Malaysia with foreign investigators. Here is a non exhaustive list of some questions that if answered would have made reading the Preliminary Report worthwhile:
- What types of data are sealed? What can be publicly released? What cannot and why?
- ACARS data exchanged until 01:07? Any FMC updates?
- Was a call indeed established with MH370 around 01:30 with another a/c in flight? Time? Content?
- Were there any flying platforms other than commercial flights in the vicinity of IGARI between 01:07 and 01:30?
- What eye witness reports have been investigated and/or confirmed in the Khota Baru area?
- Are there any other reports of probable sightings of MH370 between 01:21 and 02:28 across Malaysia or at sea?
- Data with readable time stamps for the radar plot shown in Beijing on 21 March by the RMAF operations commander, including location and height of radar antenna?
- What radar data from countries other than Malaysia have been received by Malaysia? Details?
- Were any mobile phones on-board MH370 logged in the VLR of any base stations? Time, location, owner?
- Were there any ATC and/or non-ATC voice communications between MH370 and any other party (on land, shipborne, airborne or spaceborne) after 01:21 using any communication gear in any band?
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 171):
Do you realise that MH370 *MIGHT* be the Captain's fault?

*IF* MH370 was somehow caused by the Captain, it would be a shame if the word goes around that the Captain is being made to look like a scapegoat when he may not be the scapegoat but rather the cause.

I think, most of us realize it might be pilot error AFTER technical failure. Pilot error, not necessarily only captain's error.

But mandala499's post is well understood: Malaysian government circles try to blame the captain, no matter what. They don't blame him of an error, that much is obvious.
Conclusion: They don't have any evidence against the captain, not a shade of it. Adieu to Conspiracy !
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 173):
Here is a non exhaustive list of some questions that if answered would have made reading the Preliminary Report worthwhile

- MX history
- anything MELed
- fuel load
- cargo manifest
- TOW
- PF/PM

None of these should be sensitive - unless you're obfuscating.

Instead, there was a bunch of stuff on the Defence Minister's Facebook site (!!!). My guess is that the AAIB/NTSB declined to acquiesce in this stuff being included in the official Report - which in my mind would make its accuracy suspect.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
EricR
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 174):

Conclusion: They don't have any evidence against the captain, not a shade of it. Adieu to Conspiracy !

No one has a shred of evidence anywhere beyond the initial Malaysian radar track. Therefore, nothing can be ruled out at this point. I am still not confident in the conclusion reached by Inmarsat. This whole investigation has been nothing but testing a bunch of theories, all of which have provided false results.
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:46 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 176):
No one has a shred of evidence anywhere beyond the initial Malaysian radar track. Therefore, nothing can be ruled out at this point. I am still not confident in the conclusion reached by Inmarsat. This whole investigation has been nothing but testing a bunch of theories, all of which have provided false results.

One can have doubts about some conclusions (which were not made by Inmarsat), but the data itself and the ping-rings have not been doubted seriously. False results ? I would call it inconclusive, so far. It was not found in the tiny area that has been searched so far. It is a time consuming process, just like in similar cases in the past.

In contrast to foul play-cases in the past, 3 months after the event, not a shred of evidence has turned up against the captain. And that going offline and back online of satcom kills the "the captain took it to oblivion"-theories at once.
 
Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 177):
And that going offline and back online of satcom kills the "the captain took it to oblivion"-theories at once.

I don't think so. The satcom may have changed state but ACARS was still off i.e. no ACARS app messages were flowing from the a/c to the ground.
 
mandala499
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 177):
And that going offline and back online of satcom kills the "the captain took it to oblivion"-theories at once.

It doesn't... until the scenario based on that can be built, it doesn't kill the "captain took it to oblivion" theory.
The scenario built has to match the data that is known, otherwise it's just rubbish.
Even the "Captain Took It To Oblivion" theory also need to have the scenario built to match the data... otherwise it is also rubbish. I find it ironic that even this theory, seems to be more developed in this topic than what the Malaysian government has come up with.
The scenarios built, also has to make sense from behaviour that is typical of pilots of the region, even a suicidal pilot, in this scenario has to have his actions explainable based on airmanship as it is so ingrained into his head... ie: how he'd go from IGARI to the last point where the flight was seen on radar, and how it got to oblivion, has to make sense for a pilot... not "makes sense" only because we want it to work. The mishap theory(theories) has to undergo the same treatment.

With the little data available, anyone who thinks this is a simple case to solve once one can come up with a seemingly plausible "data" to support one's theory... is not likely to be short on foolishness.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 117):
If you're saying this as most likely...Switching the left AC bus off means... the left utility bus is also switched off...and... that means,the following are affected... Left engine EEC, primary flaps trailing edge, Window heaters, onboard brouters, pitot heaters, TAT probe heaters, Left AOA sensor heater, Cabin System Management Unit (and downstream users of it), Cabin overhead electrical units, pre-recorded cabin messages, Passenger Systems Services, IFE (audio and video), Satcom, Voice Recorder (CVR?), some of the left fuel boost pumps, Right AC Hyd Pump, Center 1 AC Hyd Pump, Some flight controls affected...

To return to the electricity distribution and the powering off the SATCOM modem... there is a main 120 kVA generator in each of the engines and APU and a backup 25 kVA generator in each of the engines supporting essential services only.

How about switching off the main left 120 kVA generator and taking the left 25 kVA back-up generator into use? Switching off the main left generator and switching on the left back-up generator should be possible from the overhead panel. And the purpose might be to disable passenger IFE, and the SATCOM modem might be affected, too?

http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/over/elect.html#
 
EricR
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 177):
False results ? I would call it inconclusive, so far. It was not found in the tiny area that has been searched so far.

For Inmarsat, I agree that one could define it as inconclusive. I personally would classify it as a theory prone to inaccuracies.

However, when looking at other facets of the investigation, there have been many false results on various theories or possibilities. For example, the pings that were heard from the Indian Ocean are now believed to have come from something other than the aircraft. However, at the time, the search team was confident they had located the plane.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 177):
In contrast to foul play-cases in the past, 3 months after the event, not a shred of evidence has turned up against the captain. And that going offline and back online of satcom kills the "the captain took it to oblivion"-theories at once.

But this does not rule out foul play by either the captain or anyone else aboard the aircraft for that matter. In fact, if we look at this case based on evidence, almost anything is possible because there is such little evidence.

The lack of evidence is probably what is most striking about this incident. If the plan took a southerly course near Banda Aceh, I find it interesting that Indonesian radar did not pick it up.
 
Starglider
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 173):
We do not really know what data exists in total and what fraction has been shared by the Minister of Defence of Malaysia with foreign investigators. Here is a non exhaustive list of some questions that if answered would have made reading the Preliminary Report worthwhile:

Another open end could be added to the list.

According to the ABC program 4 Corners, at around the same time that the transponder was switched off:

"4 Corners understands someone in the cockpit began interfering with the in-flight entertainment system . . . ."

Check at 13:00 of the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wht8irZHiII

- How and by who was the program made to understand this action?
- What was the interfering action on the flight deck? (IFE switch?)
- How, if this occurred, was this action identified?

ACARS did not send this information since it sent its last message (at 01:07:49 MYT) before the transponder was switched off (at 01:21:13 MYT) according to the Preliminary Report.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting EricR (Reply 181):
The lack of evidence is probably what is most striking about this incident. If the plan took a southerly course near Banda Aceh, I find it interesting that Indonesian radar did not pick it up.

Before the release of the satellite handshakes it was commonly assumed that the sudden change in the BFO chart at 1825 Z - 1803 Z indicated a sharp turn south.

Based on the released satellite handshake data, it appears that the BFO change at 1825 Z - 1830 Z is related to the re-powering of the SATCOM device, not a sharp turn.

Basically that means that the plane could have turned south further north, away from the radar in Banda Aceh.

Quoting Starglider (Reply 182):
- How and by who was the program made to understand this action?
- What was the interfering action on the flight deck? (IFE switch?)
- How, if this occurred, was this action identified?

Interesting. I don't think there is an IFE switch in the cockpit. It might actually be related to the detection of the powering off the SATCOM modem, as both IFE and SATCOM modem are on the main left AC bus according to Mandala499.

And if the plane remains fully flyable with left back-up and right main generator (and SATCOM modem being unpowered), then we have a foul play scenario consistent with the satellite handshake data...

[Edited 2014-06-01 13:26:14]

[Edited 2014-06-01 13:35:29]
 
Starglider
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 183):
Interesting. I don't think there is an IFE switch in the cockpit.

There may or may not be an IFE switch but if the AD and associated Service Bulletins have been accomplished there would be a switch on the flight deck.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/FR-2013-05-10/2013-11063

This AD explains the reason for installation of such a switch. And, if installed in 9M-MRO, this reason may also have been why "someone interfered with the in-flight entertainment system . . .."

This may not have been a reason for foul play but simply to prevent an electrical problem from becoming worse in the event of smoke or fire.
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 184):
There may or may not be an IFE switch but if the AD and associated Service Bulletins have been accomplished there would be a switch on the flight deck.

You are correct that there is a Boeing Service Bulletin related to the issue and showing the new switches on page 10 of 125.

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FAA-2013-0368-0008
http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=FAA-2013-0368

However, I can only find a proposed AD, not the actual AD, and the service bulleting only says: "The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will possibly release an Airworthiness Directive (AD) related to this service bulletin. The Airworthiness Directive will make the compliance tasks and times given in this service bulletin mandatory."

So, it is possible that the 9M-MRO didn't have the IFE switch. If it had the switch, it makes unnecessary to disable the passenger IFE through the back-up generator switch (regardless of whether for troubleshooting or foul play).
 
mandala499
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 183):
Interesting. I don't think there is an IFE switch in the cockpit. It might actually be related to the detection of the powering off the SATCOM modem, as both IFE and SATCOM modem are on the main left AC bus according to Mandala499.

Oh dear... there is usually the IFE switch or IFE/PASS CABIN/SEATS UTILITY switches. But looking from this one from 9M-MRG...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TK


I don't think the Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet had these switches.

If fitted with the switches, the IFE can be switched off from the cockpit. As I understand from the manuals, if you switch it off, the Satcom downstream of the SDU to the cabin (the cabin telephones that charges your card at some exorbitant price) gets switched off, but not the Satcom system as in antenna and SDU.

If you don't have the switch, then to kill the IFE, you unpower the left bus (switch off the main left generator and not use the bus tie), and tie in the back up left generator, you have the left transfer bus is on, SATCOM is off.

BUT... Transponder shouldn't be off... unless... Transponder is selected to left, and not only Left Main Bus is unpowered, but also the left transfer bus has also failed to be powered by the back up generators.... Did someone pull the fire handle? *stretching it too far for the moment I think!*

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 183):
And if the plane remains fully flyable with left back-up and right main generator (and SATCOM modem being unpowered), then we have a foul play scenario consistent with the satellite handshake data...

The question becomes... why would you unpower the left main bus to kill the IFE and/or satcom, then switch it on again?
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 186):
The question becomes... why would you unpower the left main bus to kill the IFE and/or satcom, then switch it on again?

I am afraid the full "pilot did it" scenario consistent with all the data is as follows:
- lock the other pilot out of the cockpit
- turn the transponder switch first to ALT RPTG OFF and a few seconds later to STBY to disable transponder at 1721 Z
- disable ACARS communication paths (SATCOM and radio) from the FMC menu
- switch off the left main generator and switch on the left backup generator to disable IFE and cabin satellite phones (SATCOM modem will be disabled, too)
- depressurize the cabin to incapacitate all the others
- after incapacitating all the others, to restore a fully functioning plane, turn on the left main generator at 1825 Z (SATCOM modem will be enabled and will request a log-on, but the perpetrator obviously didn't know that)
- fly to southern Indian Ocean, either piloted or through waypoints

I hope there is also a technical malfunction scenario consistent with all the data.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:11 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 174):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 171):
Do you realise that MH370 *MIGHT* be the Captain's fault?

*IF* MH370 was somehow caused by the Captain, it would be a shame if the word goes around that the Captain is being made to look like a scapegoat when he may not be the scapegoat but rather the cause.

I think, most of us realize it might be pilot error AFTER technical failure. Pilot error, not necessarily only captain's error.

But mandala499's post is well understood: Malaysian government circles try to blame the captain, no matter what. They don't blame him of an error, that much is obvious.
Conclusion: They don't have any evidence against the captain, not a shade of it. Adieu to Conspiracy !

They also don't have evidence that it was a fire or a mechanical fault. To use your words "Adieu to Conspiracy !"

When I say could have been caused by the Captain, I recognise it could have been pilot error, but, I also recognise that caused by the Captain also refers to pilot suicide...

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 187):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 186):
The question becomes... why would you unpower the left main bus to kill the IFE and/or satcom, then switch it on again?

I am afraid the full "pilot did it" scenario consistent with all the data is as follows:
- lock the other pilot out of the cockpit
- turn the transponder switch first to ALT RPTG OFF and a few seconds later to STBY to disable transponder at 1721 Z
- disable ACARS communication paths (SATCOM and radio) from the FMC menu
- switch off the left main generator and switch on the left backup generator to disable IFE and cabin satellite phones (SATCOM modem will be disabled, too)
- depressurize the cabin to incapacitate all the others
- after incapacitating all the others, to restore a fully functioning plane, turn on the left main generator at 1825 Z (SATCOM modem will be enabled and will request a log-on, but the perpetrator obviously didn't know that)
- fly to southern Indian Ocean, either piloted or through waypoints

I hope there is also a technical malfunction scenario consistent with all the data.

Interesting. Out of the two pilots I would think, that if the above happened, it would have been the Captain. He had the most skills / knowledge and experience on the T7 by far out of the two pilots...
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fotoflyer71
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:15 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 186):
Oh dear... there is usually the IFE switch or IFE/PASS CABIN/SEATS UTILITY switches. But looking from this one from 9M-MRG...

Are you talking about a switch or a CB? For some reason I seem to recall there was a CB labelled IFE/PASS CABIN/SEATS UTILITY when I was browsing around smartcockpit early on in this ordeal - but can't seem to get on smartcockpit website tonight to confirm
Try to learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself.
 
CabSauv
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting fotoflyer71 (Reply 189):
For some reason I seem to recall there was a CB labelled IFE/PASS CABIN/SEATS UTILITY when I was browsing around smartcockpit early on in this ordeal

Mandala is saying - there usually IS a switch / CB however, going by a pic taken of 9M-MRG's cockpit, it appears that 9M-MRO did not have that switch/CB.
 
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9MMPQ
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 186):
Oh dear... there is usually the IFE switch or IFE/PASS CABIN/SEATS UTILITY switches. But looking from this one from 9M-MRG I don't think the Malaysia Airlines 777 fleet had these switches.

The switch is installed on the fleet. Top left in this picture, the single button right below the ELT switch with red flip guard. If you have any MH contacts with access to the fleet they will back that up.

Now crawling back under my rock.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:47 am

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 191):
The switch is installed on the fleet. Top left in this picture, the single button right below the ELT switch with red flip guard. If you have any MH contacts with access to the fleet they will back that up.

Now crawling back under my rock.

I have no reason not to believe that  
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Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:59 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 182):
"4 Corners understands someone in the cockpit began interfering with the in-flight entertainment system . . . ."
Quoting Starglider (Reply 182):
- How and by who was the program made to understand this action?
- What was the interfering action on the flight deck? (IFE switch?)
- How, if this occurred, was this action identified?

ACARS did not send this information since it sent its last message (at 01:07:49 MYT) before the transponder was switched off (at 01:21:13 MYT) according to the Preliminary Report.

You asked a very interesting and important question re. IFE. Caro Meldrum-Hanna (4 Corners) is heard saying "Around the same time, 4 Corners understands someone inside the cockpit starting interfering with the Inflight Entertainment System." That statement comes right after Nik Huzlan (Former MAS Chief Pilot) said "I do not know who switched off the transponder but certainly that diabolical act started with the switching off of the transponder."

It is important to know where the reporter got the IFE observation from and what event sequence is implied:
- was is a deduction much like what Mandala499 and Finn350 are doing by assuming the left bus may have been temporarily switched off?
- was it in some data sent by the a/c over the T channel at or before 17:07 (R: access request T channel, P : allocate T channel for use by a/c, T: a/c transfers data in multiple SUs)?
- was it in the data sent by the a/c over the T channel at 18:28:10?

My suggestions:
- try to reach Caro (or the 4 Corners' producer) and ask for the source of the IFE information;
- ask Inmarsat to release the data sent by the a/c over the T channel. Actually, that is also raw data!
 
mandala499
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:36 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 192):
I have no reason not to believe that

Don't be so quick... take a good look at the picture again.

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 191):
The switch is installed on the fleet. Top left in this picture, the single button right below the ELT switch with red flip guard. If you have any MH contacts with access to the fleet they will back that up.

I agree! After looking at other 777 cockpits, it looks like that area is for retrofitted and custom switches. And yes, the label does look like it says "IFE blablabla"...

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 187):
I am afraid the full "pilot did it" scenario consistent with all the data is as follows:

With Left Main AC Bus powered off for the purpose of killing the SatCom and IFE, it doesn't make sense to power it up again. If going with the left transfer bus through the back up generator, the aircraft would be "functioning normally".
And the IFE Pass switch off, is sufficient.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 193):
It is important to know where the reporter got the IFE observation from and what event sequence is implied:
- was is a deduction much like what Mandala499 and Finn350 are doing by assuming the left bus may have been temporarily switched off?
- was it in some data sent by the a/c over the T channel at or before 17:07 (R: access request T channel, P : allocate T channel for use by a/c, T: a/c transfers data in multiple SUs)?
- was it in the data sent by the a/c over the T channel at 18:28:10?

This is the question I got... how do they know? My guess is that, they are also guessing.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Finn350
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 194):
With Left Main AC Bus powered off for the purpose of killing the SatCom and IFE, it doesn't make sense to power it up again. If going with the left transfer bus through the back up generator, the aircraft would be "functioning normally".And the IFE Pass switch off, is sufficient.

In that case there has to be some other reason to switch to the left back-up generator if this is indeed the correct scenario. Were there satellite phones in the cabin and are they affected by the IFE switch?

In any case, the scenario is consistent with the data, and it is difficult to come up with other reasons why the SATCOM modem was apparently unpowered until 1825 Z (besides the left main AC generator being switched off).

Edit: And if indeed the investigation team believes that IFE was switched off I don't see how they could have that information besides deducing based on the unpowering of the SATCOM modem and thus the left main AC bus (but not the backup bus, as the plane was flying at or near maximum speed at that time).

[Edited 2014-06-02 02:07:01]
 
mandala499
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:43 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 195):
Were there satellite phones in the cabin and are they affected by the IFE switch?

Turning the IFE Switch will result in the IFE and the satphones handsets in the cabin to stop working.
The satcom itself, will continue to function as long as Left Main AC Bus is powered.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 195):
and it is difficult to come up with other reasons why the SATCOM modem was apparently unpowered until 1825 Z (besides the left main AC generator being switched off).

SatCom unpowered = 2 alternatives:
1. Someone going to the E&E bay, open up panel P110, and pull 3 CBs out for the SatCom.
2. Left Main AC Bus is unpowered.
It is not affected by switching the IFE off.
It is not powered by the Left Transfer Bus (from the BackUp Generators).

Note: I am talking about the satcom antenna ,modem and amplifier, as well as the back up low gain antenna and modem. They form the 3 CBs controlling the satcom system.
The Passenger Satphone handsets are part of the IFE system, and switching them off, just go through the IFE switch... which does not switch off the satcom system.

If I do not want the passengers to make satphone calls based on me hijacking the plane, I just switch off the IFE... this is usually the set up with single IFE cockpit switch, with the dual IFE/PASS SVC switches, switch both off (or switch off the right one) will kill the IFE controller phone handsets.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 195):
Edit: And if indeed the investigation team believes that IFE was switched off I don't see how they could have that information besides deducing based on the unpowering of the SATCOM modem and thus the left main AC bus (but not the backup bus, as the plane was flying at or near maximum speed at that time).

Just the Left Main AC bus... to be precise, the low loads Left Main AC bus which is part of the Left Main AC Bus.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:11 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 188):
Out of the two pilots I would think, that if the above happened, it would have been the Captain. He had the most skills / knowledge and experience on the T7 by far out of the two pilots...

Maybe it seems complicated to someone who knows nothing about an air transport aircraft, but none of those things requires knowledge or skills beyond those of anyone on a 777 flightdeck, including an FO.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
lazybones
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 10:39 am

http://www.theage.com.au/business/av...emirates-chief-20140602-39ehl.html

Well I pointed this out quite a few threads ago, and some didn't agree with me. So I'm glad Tim Clark shares my view. It does read a bit like he personally read my original post .... just kidding  

Part of me wonders if we can trust any of the so called Military data produced by the Malaysian investigators.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:34 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 197):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 188):
Out of the two pilots I would think, that if the above happened, it would have been the Captain. He had the most skills / knowledge and experience on the T7 by far out of the two pilots...

Maybe it seems complicated to someone who knows nothing about an air transport aircraft, but none of those things requires knowledge or skills beyond those of anyone on a 777 flightdeck, including an FO.

Are you saying that both pilots were equally competent on the 777?

Do you think that both pilots would have confidently been able to make MH370 disappear with the same amount of 'ease' as the other if that is what happened?

Do you think that both pilots had the same motive to take MH370 if that is what happened?

Do you think it was more likely that an experienced Captain was tricked and locked out of the cockpit by the junior FO or do you think it is more likely -((as one of the points Finn350 mentioned was "- lock the other pilot out of the cockpit" - that I quoted when replying but you just so happened to leave out when quoting just part of my reply - which is no surprise))- that the senior Captain could have easily tricked the FO into leaving the cockpit?

All I was suggesting is that, given what we know about the Captain and his experience, it would be easier for the Captain to pull of MH370 IMO. IMO the Captain could have pulled it off without any planning (if he made a snap decision, let's say, after a failed negotiation or whatever) whereas I'm sure it would have required more planning by the FO. Of course all type rated pilots in the cockpit, know where everything is and what does what - that is their job. That is what they are supposed to know and do. That does not mean that their ability to pull certain things off or perform certain tasks is equal...
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