sipadan
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting bloviator (Reply 210):
According to the released ATC transcripts, MH 370 made the call to ATC to confirm FL at 17:07:55. The call is of course meaningless and innocuous in itself. But the timing is bizarre.

No, it was to RE-CONFIRM "maintaining FL350". At 17:01 we have the first confirmation of maintaining FL350. The 12:51 transmission is the acknowledgement of ATC instruction to climb to FL350. It is quite possible this redundant transmission wasn't meaningless at all. Certainly since 239 people have perished (or the world is flat) everything needs to be put under a microscope. The timing corresponds with the last ACARS transmission, but these two events are in fact entirely unrelated. We only know that ACARS didn't send the expected 17:37 transmission.

Here are the last 8 transmissions:

ATC (16:50:06): Malaysia 370 climb FL350.

COCKPIT (16:50:09): FL350 Malaysia 370.

COCKPIT (17:01:14): Malaysia 370 maintaining level 350.

ATC (17:01:19): Malaysia 370.

COCKPIT (17:07:55): Malaysia 370 maintaining level 350.

ATC (17:08:00): Malaysia 370.

ATC (17:19:24): Malaysia 370 contact HO Chi Min 120 decimal 9 good night.

COCKPIT (17:19:29): Good night Malaysia 370.

So, we have a 6 min 41 sec chunk of time in between the two 'maintaining level 350' transmissions. Then we have a space of 11 min and 24 sec from the time ATC acknowledges this redundant transmission (17:08:00) and the time it dials up MH370 with the hand-off instructions (17:19:24). It seems that at some point within this 11 minute span, a decision was made to swap duties, Fariq would move to piloting, Zaharie to comms. I wonder if this wasn't a 'unilateral' decision? And about that incomplete read back, perhaps someone wanted to be exposed for as short a time as possible, you know, any possible LOUD peripheral noise that may be picked up? Maybe.

It is believed that Fariq (FO) was on comms until the last transmission from the cockpit, where it has been reported that at least 5 colleagues at MH identified this transmission as coming from Zaharie. It is important to note the other 'small' anomaly here...an incomplete read back. Now, we not only have Zaharie making the last transmission, but also not doing so properly, or at least not repeating it in full, hmmm. Another coincidence in this saga of 'coincidences'? Perhaps, but perhaps NOT. Why didn't he read back Ho Chi Min 120 decimal 9? Just being casual and lax on a very familiar route? Perhaps, but perhaps NOT. We know ADS-B is lost some 2 minutes later. Coincidence? Perhaps, but perhaps NOT.

Since my knowledge of the flight deck is so 'rudimentary', I have been told over and over again that this flopping of roles means 'nothing' . However, since the a/c is MISSING, and lives have been lost, I think even the slightest and seemingly most insignificant of anomalies is deserving of rigorous scrutiny.

[/quote]
[quote=mandala499,reply=243]I'd take it as until there's confirmation there's an attempted phone call, then I believe the pilot locked out theory is bogus.
[/quote}
So you think that ONLY if the phone call is proven and realized could the locked out theory stand?
 
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9MMPQ
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 247):
Must admit, 9MMPO, I've seen no evidence to support any idea that MH370 flew 'until fuel starvation'? On the (scanty) available evidence, it likely 'went in' within the first hour?

I do not see any reason to ignore or discredit the Inmarsat data, and neither do the Australians & JACC apparently. Or maybe we have to believe the Sunday Sport that it has been found on the moon ? Then i'll just casually ignore the fact it looks like a B747 and go with that.

I think i will leave it at that.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 250):
Then we have a space of 11 min and 24 sec from the time ATC acknowledges this redundant transmission (17:08:00) and the time it dials up MH370 with the hand-off instructions (17:19:24). It seems that at some point within this 11 minute span, a decision was made to swap duties, Fariq would move to piloting, Zaharie to comms.
Quoting sipadan (Reply 250):
It is believed that Fariq (FO) was on comms until the last transmission from the cockpit, where it has been reported that at least 5 colleagues at MH identified this transmission as coming from Zaharie.

I think that the Captain might have made the last ATC call because the FO was out of the cockpit, perhaps using the toilet, at that time (perhaps he was told to take a break now and was locked out)... Sometime between the redundant / last "maintaining FLT350" transmission (possibly spoken by the FO) and the ATC hand-off (possible spoken by the Captain) the FO left for whatever reason was was locked out.

Quoting sipadan (Reply 250):
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 243):
I'd take it as until there's confirmation there's an attempted phone call, then I believe the pilot locked out theory is bogus.
[/quote}
So you think that ONLY if the phone call is proven and realized could the locked out theory stand?

Check out the following quote - which is consistent with the cover-up type behavior of one certain Government  
Quoting Finn350 (Reply 248):
I think the cell phone call attempt has been denied by the Malaysian officials. However, CNN reported based on their sources that there was a cell phone registration to a cell tower from the FO's cell phone when the plane flew over Malaysia. This has not been denied and if true, it would indicate the FO had switched his phone on (or out of airplane mode).

Given the behavior of the Malaysian Authorities - I am starting to believe that the phone call was attempted or at least the signal picked up by the cell phone tower was from the FO's phone...
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NAV30
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 251):
I do not see any reason to ignore or discredit the Inmarsat data, and neither do the Australians & JACC apparently.

Quite a lot of questions already being asked, 9MMPQ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPgS5_zM9vI
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 253):

If the plane went down where you think it did... where they first searched for a week or so... where the water is roughly less than 100m deep... ... ... ... ... then where is one single shred of the plane? Where is it, NAV30?

If it went down there it would have been dark - very low chance of a successful night ditching. If if the plane broke up into several large pieces and mostly sank, there would still be a lot of debris that could have floated for some time. Where are the debris? There is land basically in every direction from the point it went missing - Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, The Philippines out to the East... Etc...

Where is one shred of 9M-MRO???

I am pretty certain it is no where near the spot it went missing...
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boacvc10
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 254):
There is land basically in every direction from the point it went missing - Malaysia, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, The Philippines out to the East... Etc...

If no floating debris has been found, and the search area still indeterminate, is it time to speculate that at some point after the southbound turn per the INMARSAT based data, the aircraft impacted somewhere, but not on the sea surface? Is it time to consider the famous quotation, but that question could be also said (if the INMARSAT data is eventually discarded) to the South China seas surrounding areas.

Quote:
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Arthur Conan Doyle
Up, up and Away!
 
Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 243):
I'd take it as until there's confirmation there's an attempted phone call, then I believe the pilot locked out theory is bogus.
The cell network could easily supply the data on which towers tracked the phone and when and where the call was made. That data is not made available, which if true, would have been declared as fact by now.

And that's exactly why we are still short on facts and long on almost arbitrary theories.

Quote:
Acting Transport Minister Datuk Seri Hishammuddin Hussein said that if a call was made by co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid using his mobile phone during the flight, the authorities would have known about it earlier, as was reported by the New Straits Times (NST),
Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) Director-General Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman told The Star that MH370 Fariq did not make any phone calls during the flight.

Clever they are! They are saying "no phone calls during the flight". Ok. They deny something but they know very well what the larger question is about. Did a BTS log the phone id, whether or not a call attempt was made. Knowing where and when would yield an extremely valuable sphere that 9M-MRO had to fly through.

Of course, we all understand why Mr. Hussein cannot confirm it. As you remember, he stated that he will not confirm what has not been corroborated! And his team is still searching for an eyewitness corroborating that he saw the F/O's phone being turned on!   
 
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9MMPQ
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 253):
Quite a lot of questions already being asked, 9MMPQ?

I do not have a problem with questions being asked but saying

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 247):
it likely 'went in' within the first hour?

is just throwing all the data out of the window & being done with it.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:03 pm

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 255):
Is it time to consider the famous quotation, but that question could be also said (if the INMARSAT data is eventually discarded) to the South China seas surrounding areas.

Not many better places to make a T7 hard to find than the Mariana Trench  
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LH707330
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 247):
Must admit, 9MMPO, I've seen no evidence to support any idea that MH370 flew 'until fuel starvation'? On the (scanty) available evidence, it likely 'went in' within the first hour?

Yes you have, you're just electing to disregard it. Could you explain why? If the plane had crashed 40 minutes in, why would Inmarsat report about the satcom pings? Why would they care? On balance, it seems more plausible that Inmarsat is right than that you are.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 254):
If the plane went down where you think it did... where they first searched for a week or so... where the water is roughly less than 100m deep... ... ... ... ... then where is one single shred of the plane? Where is it, NAV30?

Bingo. If they crashed quickly, there'd be stuff all over the place and they'd have found it in a few days like they did with AF447.
 
abba
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 248):
If the culprit was one of the pilots, I also think that we will never know the real motive. If there was a clear motive it would have surfaced already. I also wonder to what degree mental health issues might be involved, as the act is very heinous

So - let us be sane for a brief moment at least. "The pilot did it" is dead. Let us face it. Let us take the consequence.

Most of us do not have the technical ability to come up with an explanation as to what might - or could - have happened that is not related to "the pilot did it". And as this kind of theories become increasingly unbelievable (the Anwar theory in particular for anyone who knows even the first thing about Malaysian political history - claiming to have lived in Malaysia or not) it is time took for alternative theories. This not the least in view of the fact that such kind of theories would save a certain part of the body for quite a number of people inside the MH organization and the Malaysian government (who for that very reason might let quite a few things "be known" - trustworthy or not!!).

So - Pihero's theory is so far the only alternative theory (Pihero - please present your theory in a full version!) to the "the pilot did it". But - it cannot be the only one. Now - let us hear from the ones who really know the 777 systems and design in detail what might have happened if we let the plain nonsense out of sight and let sense reign for a moment.

[Edited 2014-06-03 11:30:46]

[Edited 2014-06-03 11:31:25]

[Edited 2014-06-03 11:32:42]
 
boacvc10
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:25 pm

I wonder what the a.net investigative community thinks of this report? Could it be modeled to fit Pihero / Mandala / other models? From the UK's The Telegraph

MH370 search: 'underwater noise' detected off southern India
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Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 260):
So - let us be sane for a brief moment at least. "The pilot did it" is dead. Let us face it. Let us take the consequence.

What exactly do you declare "dead" in your opinion?
 
abba
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:18 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 262):
What exactly do you declare "dead" in your opinion?

Theories explaining the chain of events as nothing but a deliberate act by any of the pilots (or by hijackers or similar). This is due to the simple fact that no serious and credible explanation as what the motive might have been - that actually fit to the chain of events - has so far emerged.

The very fact that the motive is in doubt is perhaps - "per se" - the most convincing fact that indicates - to me at least - that there is no motive - and hence no deliberate act - behind what had happened. So the question is: What might have happened - technically - that made this flight disappear? Pihero has one theory. But there must be others!?

[Edited 2014-06-03 12:21:45]
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 263):
But there must be others!

A bomb placed on the wrong aircraft. They intended to blow up the plane going to Kazkastan but instead blew up the plane going to China. Do we know this plane was intended to be used on this flight? Didn't this plane sit around the airport in Kuala Lumpur for a day?
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 239):
I'm sure I could stop a 772 within 10,000 feet, and keep the front spinners within 3 meters of the center line

So you've gone from "only the PIC could have done it because of the complexity" to "I could have done it because I've watched some Airplane movies".   
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Backseater
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 263):
The very fact that the motive is in doubt is perhaps - "per se" - the most convincing fact that indicates - to me at least - that there is no motive - and hence no deliberate act - behind what had happened.

So if you do not receive an official claim of responsibility you conclude that no declared motive proves that there was no deliberate act! By extension, In the future unclaimed terrorist acts will be declared not to have taken place?

I believe that work remains to be done to discriminate between different classes of scenarios:
- a deliberate act, possibly but not necessarily involving the crew under duress or not;
- an accidental event, compounded or not by subsequent crew actions, that caused the a/c to fly autonomously;
- a combination of the two whereby a deliberate act caused an accidental event at some later time.

We can hope for 9M-MRO to be found and to deliver some answers as to probable cause and consequential events.
In the mean time, I still believe that if we could collect a little more trusted data as to what really happened in the first hour or so after IGARI, we might be able to say in all likelihood that one type of scenario prevails.

But IMHO we are not there yet!
 
lancelot07
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 264):
A bomb placed on the wrong aircraft. They intended to blow up the plane going to Kazkastan but instead blew up the plane going to China. Do we know this plane was intended to be used on this flight? Didn't this plane sit around the airport in Kuala Lumpur for a day?

I don't believe in the bomb, but could someone on the ground have sabotaged the plane ? Made it look like an accident ?
Could this somebody for example remove or damage the isolation of a few cables in the pedestal, hoping for some arcing, a short, and a fire ?
Imho that's the only chance for an intentional act.

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 266):
In the future unclaimed terrorist acts will be declared not to have taken place?

I think unclaimed terrorist acts have occurred in the past. But at least they made sure that the act became known, and that it was intentional.
 
YoungMans
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:12 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 254):
If the plane went down where you think it did... where they first searched for a week or so... where the water is roughly less than 100m deep... ... ... ... ... then where is one single shred of the plane? Where is it, NAV30?

777Jet, don't be too harsh or so overly sure with your words..!!
(Or else there is a possibility that one day you may have to 'eat' them.)

".... where is one single shred of the plane?"

There may not be any..!!

Google your way through to Dr. J. Wood's conclusions on what may have happened to the towers on 9/11.
The key word to look for is... - Dustification.

In all of this there are two distinct possibilities ...
One:
Whatever has happened is explainable in 'normal' common terms; the kind of possible or plausible event that has been discussed here ad nauseam.
The only thing is, it is all a bit mysterious but otherwise reasonably straight forward.
(And of course very tragic for the people directly involved; we feel for them.)

Two:
We may be faced and dealing with technologies (weapons) that are completely unknown (as yet) to the public and which, heavens forbid, may have been used in this case.
Be it as a demonstration or for whatever other purpose. Only governments at the highest levels would know.
If, and this is a gigantic IF, ...if that were the case, this incident would have been carried out by agencies or entities for whom the falsification of satellite data and radar images or the silence of key personnel would certainly be an item on the "To be Considered" list but would otherwise not be a problem.

Let's hope we haven't yet reached this point in our 'oh so sophisticated and highly technical world'.

[Edited 2014-06-03 16:14:57]
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:33 pm

Moderators- I think it is time to retire this thread until some concrete evidence of the aircraft's location is found. This has deteriorated to the point of being ludicrous. Too much name-calling, "I said, you said" and sheer absurd speculation.

Out of respect for the passengers, crew and the good people of MAS and their loved ones let it rest for now.

The fact that this is the 65th thread on the same subject should say it all.
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aftgaffe
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:50 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 269):
The fact that this is the 65th thread on the same subject should say it all.

Hey the Kiwis and friends are on Part 144 and still going strong!

Seriously though, there's been a lot of great discussion on here (Mandala made a great find in the Inmarsat data the other day, for example), that I think makes the thread valuable on an on-going basis. But if it must be shuttered perhaps new more focused threads can be started? I'd say a technical thread and a non-technical thread might make sense, at least initially.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting boacvc10 (Reply 261):
I wonder what the a.net investigative community thinks of this report? Could it be modeled to fit Pihero / Mandala / other models? From the UK's The Telegraph

Maybe a dolphin had a lot of gas?

I expect the fence sitters to say "Until it is confirmed, I have no reason to believe that it is true / false..."

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 265):
So you've gone from "only the PIC could have done it because of the complexity" to "I could have done it because I've watched some Airplane movies".

Perhaps a new user name for you is warranted - STRAW MAN - I never said only the Captain could have done it because of the complexity, all I said was IMO it would have been easier for the experienced Captain and I will always stand by that reasoning.

Nonetheless, I have been able to do that for a long time... I don't watch PG Airplane movies - I watch X rated movies...  
Quoting YoungMans (Reply 268):
777Jet, don't be too harsh or so overly sure with your words..!!
(Or else there is a possibility that one day you may have to 'eat' them.)

I hope you say that to everybody who asks critical questions - I'll be watching from now!

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 268):
Google your way through to Dr. J. Wood's conclusions on what may have happened to the towers on 9/11.
The key word to look for is... - Dustification.

Dustification in the Gulf of Thailand... Hmmmm... Plenty of WTC type buildings to fly into in the middle of the Gulf to 'dustify' a plane... I know water is used in concrete but I didn't know water was used to make dust... Mud, on the other had, is a different story  
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 269):
Moderators- I think it is time to retire this thread until some concrete evidence of the aircraft's location is found.

You don't need to read it if it is too much to take... But, I hope you participate and enjoy the discussion because I like your contributions  

[Edited 2014-06-03 18:50:21]
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LTC8K6
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:58 am

Quoting abba (Reply 260):

So - let us be sane for a brief moment at least. "The pilot did it" is dead. Let us face it. Let us take the consequence.

As I posted not long ago in this thread, the info on the IFE switch makes me a little more sure that this was foul play.
 
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777Jet
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:04 am

Quoting abba (Reply 263):
This is due to the simple fact that no serious and credible explanation as what the motive might have been - that actually fit to the chain of events - has so far emerged.

There is almost a timeline and chain of events prepared that fits the Captain did it theory and also explains the cover up behavior. However, if it was posted in here, it would get quoted, and eventually deleted after a 'reference quote' got deleted... You know how it works...

So, abba, where is your theory / chain of events?
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wilco737
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RE: MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 65

Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:42 am

Part 66 now available here:

MH Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 66 (by wilco737 Jun 3 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks.

wilco737
  

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