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727LOVER
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DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 4:03 pm

Leads to a 24-hour delay

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/weird...because-pilot-doesnt-show/9756615/

[Edited 2014-05-30 09:19:32]
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 4:24 pm

Difficult to recrew a flight in an outstation when someone shirks their responsibility.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
FlyHossD
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1):
Difficult to recrew a flight in an outstation when someone shirks their responsibility.

JFK is an "outstation" for DL?

It looks to me that this was actually a Delta Connection flight. Given the crew shortages at regionals, we're going to see more of this - at least until the major carriers raise their CPA prices, so that the regionals can afford to pay more to their pilots (thus attracting pilots).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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777Jet
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 4:47 pm

A good story to end the day...
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cessna2
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 2):
It looks to me that this was actually a Delta Connection flight. Given the crew shortages at regionals, we're going to see more of this - at least until the major carriers raise their CPA prices, so that the regionals can afford to pay more to their pilots (thus attracting pilots).

Not to mention FAR117. When weather in NYC tanks its a mess. Sounds like what happened here. While its unfortunate for the passengers, if you have no available crew in the area, and you can't deadhead a crew because flights inbound are canceling, there isn't much you can do. This is going to be a long summer.
 
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flashmeister
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 5:07 pm

For all of this, DL can't manage anything other than a $100 gift card? Sure hope that was on top of refunding everyone's original fare. Otherwise that seems really cheap of DL...
 
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Acey559
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 4):

I agree. I tell everyone I know that if they need to fly this summer, give yourself plenty of wiggle room. It's going to be pure misery. I hope I'm wrong but things are already getting bad and we're not even into the busy period yet. Add weather into the mix and it will take much longer to return to normal ops than before. I'm not normally an alarmist, but I'm legitimately worried about how this summer is going to go.
 
DashTrash
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:14 pm

Stay on mainline if you can. No staffing issues there for the most part. Regionals are going to be a nightmare for the foreseeable future.
 
sw733
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:28 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 7):
Stay on mainline if you can. No staffing issues there for the most part. Regionals are going to be a nightmare for the foreseeable future.

So 24 hour delays are going to be the norm?
 
FlyHossD
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 4):
Not to mention FAR117.

Yes, good point, but it's also a given. That is, it's the law of the land and the industry needs to quit blaming something they had years to prepare for.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 4):
This is going to be a long summer.

Yes. I do have some travel needs this summer and it's becoming increasing likely that I'll purchase a G.A. airplane to fulfill some of those needs.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 8):
So 24 hour delays are going to be the norm?

I expect increased cancellations will be the norm.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 4):

Agree! Maybe the regional trend will end and mainline flights will increase. And yes regional crews need better pay "yesterday!" Regional service is the first to suffer when the weather goes downhill.
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strfyr51
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:51 pm

the passenger had the option of being re-routed, BUT!! they might have had to go from JFK to EWR or LGA to ORD, change planes to get to MSP. 6 of one , half dozen of the other, FAR-117 is going to hit the regionals Hard. A poster was correct, Book main line or change your travel times to FLY mainline. OR??? Go to a travel agent!!
 
cessna2
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 9):
Yes, good point, but it's also a given. That is, it's the law of the land and the industry needs to quit blaming something they had years to prepare for.

While I agree with that statement, there's also an issue with finding good people. My buddy works for 9E and out of 100 applicants they are lucky if 1 or 2 actually take the job. It's hard to staff when you are actively competing for contracts with a carrier and trying to remain competitive and profitable. Unfortunately the only way to do that is through reducing the cost of labor. It's just not the same type of industry it used to be.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 10):
And yes regional crews need better pay "yesterday!"

Agreed.
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:56 pm

The Delta app will let you rebook yourself during a delay. I've used it and it's very easy. I would never wait around 11hrs for a 2hr domestic flight.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:57 pm

I think Delta is responsible. Crew shortage is NOT weather. Crew shortage is something for which pax should be fully compensated.

IMO, $1000/day is not unreasonable.

DL even was reluctant to give them hotel rooms!
 
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting thegoldenargosy (Reply 13):
The Delta app will let you rebook yourself during a delay. I've used it and it's very easy. I would never wait around 11hrs for a 2hr domestic flight.

DL has plenty of humans on the payroll to help, including at JFK. Any daytime pax who is delayed more than 8 daytime hours, without weather, is a total emergency. IMO.
 
bahadir
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 7:26 pm

They are having a hard time hiring into a job that pays $22,000 / year. It's hard to live off of that in NYC.
Earthbound misfit I
 
flight152
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 12):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 10):And yes regional crews need better pay "yesterday!"
Agreed.

..Which is difficult when you have pilots at PSA and Endeavor agreeing to concessionary contracts in the name of new flying and "saving their jobs."

[Edited 2014-05-30 12:38:51]
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 8:05 pm

It's impossible from the story to say if staffing issues caused by pay, regulations or anything else caused this. For all we know the pilot could have called in sick, got into an accident on the way to the airport and any number of things. I have waited for pilots who never showed on Delta mainline so this is nothing extraordinary for regional carriers.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 12):
there's also an issue with finding good people. My buddy works for 9E and out of 100 applicants they are lucky if 1 or 2 actually take the job. It's hard to staff when you are actively competing for contracts with a carrier and trying to remain competitive and profitable. Unfortunately the only way to do that is through reducing the cost of labor. It's just not the same type of industry it used to be.

There are plenty of pilots qualified to do the job. There is a shortage of qualified pilots WILLING to work for the crap pay and work rules they'd be working under for most regionals.

Quoting flight152 (Reply 17):
..Which is difficult when you have pilots at PSA and Endeavor agreeing to concessionary contracts in the name of new flying and "saving their jobs."

Endeavor was between a rock and a hard spot with the Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The company would have gotten what they wanted one way or another. PSA got played by their management like a fiddle and sold out. Fortunately, ExpressJet, Republic and Eagle (envoy?) have held fast so far and are willing to pay the price for their vote.
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dc9er
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 8:22 pm

I love the way it says DELTA PILOT over & over again. It was a Regional airline & a regional pilot problem.

Maybe if the Regionals PAID MORE, then MORE pilots would apply there, & this wouldn't be a problem.

Is this the "pilot shortage" that we've heard so much about for the last few decades?!!!  
 
32andBelow
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting dc9er (Reply 20):

I love the way it says DELTA PILOT over & over again. It was a Regional airline & a regional pilot problem.

Maybe if the Regionals PAID MORE, then MORE pilots would apply there, & this wouldn't be a problem.

Is this the "pilot shortage" that we've heard so much about for the last few decades?!!!  

You clearly don't work for a regional airline, and see the amount of pilots moving up to majors, and difficulty of finding applicants with their ATP
 
FlyHossD
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting dc9er (Reply 20):
I love the way it says DELTA PILOT over & over again. It was a Regional airline & a regional pilot problem.

True. However, Delta sold the ticket, so it's natural that the customer will hold Delta responsible. After all, the regional carrier is a just a vendor to DL.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 18):
It's impossible from the story to say if staffing issues caused by pay, regulations or anything else caused this. For all we know the pilot could have called in sick, got into an accident on the way to the airport and any number of things. I have waited for pilots who never showed on Delta mainline so this is nothing extraordinary for regional carriers.

As I recall, the news report stated that two other pilots were assigned to the trip, but "timed out." That's an indication of a real staffing problem - i.e., where there's smoke, there's fire.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 22):
As I recall, the news report stated that two other pilots were assigned to the trip, but "timed out." That's an indication of a real staffing problem - i.e., where there's smoke, there's fire.

Yeah, why do you board a plane where the captain is going to time out before they can even take off?

That's a sign of bad planning. Pure and simple.
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Flighty
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 22):
True. However, Delta sold the ticket, so it's natural that the customer will hold Delta responsible. After all, the regional carrier is a just a vendor to DL.

DL customer service and rez work this. They could have bussed people to LGA. Surely there were seats through DTW and ATL, OR P2P seats to any outstation, on to MSP. There are >50 ways to 1-stop from New York to MSP on DL.
 
TW870
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 11:09 pm

I think this particular story says much more about poor journalism standards than it does about FAR 117 or Regional pilot issues. The only information we get in the story is from one person - a passenger named Monte Gourley - that we get no other information about. The is a reference to another passenger - whose name we do not get - who does not confirm any of the details about the absent pilot, but only confirms that she got an email about a $100 gift card. We then get a very cursory reference to a Delta spokesperson that doesn't confirm any of the story, but makes only a general reference to weather.

So what we know is that someone named Monte Gourley claims that some Delta (Endeavor) pilot no-showed and was late again on day 2. How Monte Gourley knows that, we don't know.

I say we find better sources to talk about staffing and regulation.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 11:11 pm

Few things:

1. Title is misleading. Pilot may have been reassigned, called out sick, dropped dead. The title essentially lays blame on a no show pilot. For all we know he covered a CLE turn at the last minute when Crew Scheduling called in a panic. Who knows?

2. Majors "own" the regional mistakes. Just like Colgan was a Continental crash to most of the world...this crap sandwich is a Delta pilot with a Delta flight. They don't get to have it both ways. When they contracted out flying and then later made the planes, service, and uniforms exactly the same as Big Brother, they received the benefit of cheap labor for the Widget...they also earn the garbage that comes along with it.

3. Get used to it. This is the new norm. 117 + major pilot shortage + garbage compensation + >50% of domestic flying on RJs = a dose of reality coming to American aviation. And the airlines earned EVERY second of it.

4. They should have just cancelled the flight.

5. The pilot that "volunteered" to fly the flight was likely forced by Crew Scheduling and was more than happy not to race the drop dead duty time he saw coming.
 
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ADent
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 11:12 pm

My buddy got stuck the day ORD caught fire (well ATC facility that handles Chicago).

The pisser is they waited for the plane to arrive in HSV 3.5 hours late. Then they stood around for 20 minutes while the gate agent tried to find the crew.

If UAX had known there would be no crew they could have rebooked or at least gone out to dinner instead of spending the whole evening in the airport.

The flight was canceled due to ATC problems (at least per united.com), he didn't see the airline offer anything to the passengers.

It was a 26 hour delay because the single non-stop was booked the next day and he was rebooked via IAH. The agent gave him gruff when he stood by for the non-stop the next day, but eventually allowed it (which cut it to 24 hour delay).
 
ozark1
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Fri May 30, 2014 11:19 pm

I will always be saddened that this website has turned from what its name implies "Airliners.Net", to "Airline Bashing.net". I am highly disappointed that my love of airplanes has to be continually interrupted with media induced hysteria regarding incidents where we don't know the entire story of the situation. Is there anyone out there who could direct me to another site that doesn't devote a majority of its time to telling us how bad the airlines are and how horrifically they treat their passengers. Could that be discussed somewhere else, like on Skytrax? I for one, want to know about PLANES, not about COMPLANETS!!! 
Sorry guys, but I'm really over all the different avenues this website has taken from what it was originally created for... for the love of commercial aviation and the planes that fly for them.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 12:32 am

I love Delta Air Lines, but honestly, avoid Delta Connection if at all possible. While I've never had this happen - I have had similar incidents of less magnitude.

I wish Delta's booking engine, the advanced search, would allow one to exclude Delta Connection....
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A333MSPtoAMS
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 22):
True. However, Delta sold the ticket, so it's natural that the customer will hold Delta responsible. After all, the regional carrier is a just a vendor to DL.

One thing to keep in mind, also, is that regardless of who *owns* the plane, Delta's name is clearly shown on the plane itself in huge letters. That's who the average individual is going to lay the blame to, not the tiny little letters saying, operated by x airline.
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ua900
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:17 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
Crew shortage is NOT weather.

Crew drought    Sure wasn't raining pilots that day for DL Connection.

Quoting ADent (Reply 27):
My buddy got stuck the day ORD caught fire (well ATC facility that handles Chicago).


Same here, got stuck for a day the day *after* that due to trickle down in the system. No one is happy when things like that occur, but to be fair, airlines also have some control over how they handle these potential PR issues. My airline was very responsive. DL doesn't seem to have taken the high route here.

Quoting ADent (Reply 27):
The flight was canceled due to ATC problems (at least per united.com), he didn't see the airline offer anything to the passengers.

Ask.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
3. Get used to it. This is the new norm. 117 + major pilot shortage + garbage compensation + >50% of domestic flying on RJs = a dose of reality coming to American aviation. And the airlines earned EVERY second of it.

Hope not, but I hear your concern. Either the mainliners can come back or the regional pilots need better conditions, i.e. cheaper flight training to meet increased requirements or better pay. Of course with better pay why not make them mainline employees?

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 29):
I love Delta Air Lines, but honestly, avoid Delta Connection if at all possible. While I've never had this happen - I have had similar incidents of less magnitude.

My last couple DL Connection flights were OO operated, and I've never had an issue with them either under the DL or the UA logo. I think it's an issue that hits the worst regionals more than the better ones, again part of the problem are the new rules, but some of it is also how well such challenges are handled.
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PGNCS
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1):
Difficult to recrew a flight in an outstation when someone shirks their responsibility.

You have evidence someone shirked their responsibility? It's certainly not in this article. How do you know the pilot in question didn't call in sick?

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 2):
JFK is an "outstation" for DL?

Clearly not, but then again this wasn't even a Delta operated flight, so no journalism awards to be had here from the outset. There is no concrete information of what occurred or the circumstances surrounding the events.

Quoting cessna2 (Reply 4):
Not to mention FAR117. When weather in NYC tanks its a mess.

That is true, but again we don't know any details from this.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 8):
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 7):Stay on mainline if you can. No staffing issues there for the most part. Regionals are going to be a nightmare for the foreseeable future.
So 24 hour delays are going to be the norm?

He didn't say 24 hour delays are going to be the norm, but he is likely correct that increased cancellations and IROPS will be.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 9):
Quoting sw733 (Reply 8):So 24 hour delays are going to be the norm?
I expect increased cancellations will be the norm.

Absolutely.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 18):






It's impossible from the story to say if staffing issues caused by pay, regulations or anything else caused this. For all we know the pilot could have called in sick, got into an accident on the way to the airport and any number of things

Correct.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 22):
Quoting dc9er (Reply 20):I love the way it says DELTA PILOT over & over again. It was a Regional airline & a regional pilot problem.
True. However, Delta sold the ticket, so it's natural that the customer will hold Delta responsible. After all, the regional carrier is a just a vendor to DL.

So this somehow absolves the author from inaccurate reporting?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 22):As I recall, the news report stated that two other pilots were assigned to the trip, but "timed out." That's an indication of a real staffing problem - i.e., where there's smoke, there's fire.
Yeah, why do you board a plane where the captain is going to time out before they can even take off?

That's a sign of bad planning. Pure and simple.

When the second and third captains were boarded they clearly believed they would be able to take off prior to timing out, but if you have ever been through JFK, especially when weather is a factor, you know that you never know how long it will take to get airborne. It's an operational pit, and the airlines have little control over aircraft flow there; it is also highly unpredictable for ground times. I have been there hundreds and hundreds of times and it rarely goes as you would expect (or smoothly.)

Quoting TW870 (Reply 25):
I think this particular story says much more about poor journalism standards than it does about FAR 117 or Regional pilot issues. The only information we get in the story is from one person - a passenger named Monte Gourley - that we get no other information about. The is a reference to another passenger - whose name we do not get - who does not confirm any of the details about the absent pilot, but only confirms that she got an email about a $100 gift card. We then get a very cursory reference to a Delta spokesperson that doesn't confirm any of the story, but makes only a general reference to weather.

Absolutely spot on, and a very important point. Well said.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
1. Title is misleading. Pilot may have been reassigned, called out sick, dropped dead. The title essentially lays blame on a no show pilot. For all we know he covered a CLE turn at the last minute when Crew Scheduling called in a panic. Who knows?

Great point and exactly correct.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
2. Majors "own" the regional mistakes. Just like Colgan was a Continental crash to most of the world...this crap sandwich is a Delta pilot with a Delta flight. They don't get to have it both ways. When they contracted out flying and then later made the planes, service, and uniforms exactly the same as Big Brother, they received the benefit of cheap labor for the Widget...they also earn the garbage that comes along with it.

Except that the regionals under contract are expected to manage their own personnel issues: you are certainly correct that there are problems in these relationships, but at the end of the day if the regional in question can't man its planes it's on them. What is also not in doubt is that this is becoming more and more difficult to do at the salaries offered. Expect more outright cancelled flights and regional cutbacks. Ultimately expect either higher wages in the regionals or a vastly smaller regional industry with loss of service to smaller cities and more mainline flying.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
5. The pilot that "volunteered" to fly the flight was likely forced by Crew Scheduling and was more than happy not to race the drop dead duty time he saw coming.

Also speculation. Whether he "raced" or not, JFK is an operational boondoggle where it is very easy to time out compared to most places.

Quoting A333MSPtoAMS (Reply 30):
One thing to keep in mind, also, is that regardless of who *owns* the plane, Delta's name is clearly shown on the plane itself in huge letters. That's who the average individual is going to lay the blame to, not the tiny little letters saying, operated by x airline.

Which still does not excuse shoddy journalism.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 28):
I will always be saddened that this website has turned from what its name implies "Airliners.Net", to "Airline Bashing.net".

Why? Because an airline, due to entirely internal issues, failed to get passengers to their destination in a timely manner? And in the process tried to weasel out of legal obligations to provide accommodations and board and de-boarded those passengers three times and made them wait around the airport with constantly changin information?

Yeah, I'd consider a $100 gift card a slap in the face after missing my own brother's wedding for such a thing.
-Doc Lightning-

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32andBelow
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:30 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 32):
When the second and third captains were boarded they clearly believed they would be able to take off prior to timing out, but if you have ever been through JFK, especially when weather is a factor, you know that you never know how long it will take to get airborne. It's an operational pit, and the airlines have little control over aircraft flow there; it is also highly unpredictable for ground times. I have been there hundreds and hundreds of times and it rarely goes as you would expect (or smoothly.)

You are eligible for up to a 120 minute FDP extension under FAR 117 as long as they have not used once since their last 30 hour rest period, and as long as the flight crew is "fit for duty"

[Edited 2014-05-30 18:34:03]

[Edited 2014-05-30 18:34:17]
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 32):
My last couple DL Connection flights were OO operated, and I've never had an issue with them either under the DL or the UA logo. I think it's an issue that hits the worst regionals more than the better ones, again part of the problem are the new rules, but some of it is also how well such challenges are handled.

Over the years, I've flown every Delta Connection carrier, including OO. I can't say any single carrier is better than any other. ***BUT*** I will say the Delta Connection operations based in LAX have never let me down. Further, the new SFO Shuttle Service is top-notch.
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par13del
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RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 32):
When the second and third captains were boarded they clearly believed they would be able to take off prior to timing out, but if you have ever been through JFK, especially when weather is a factor, you know that you never know how long it will take to get airborne.

The folks at JFK who allowed the boarding with those captains would have known the conditions at JFK, if the pilot assignment was done elsewhere with notification to JFK, then its unfortunate they failed to use the expertise of the JFK personnel who would have told them the time-out timing was pretty close.
Now if they just decided to take a chance on getting airborne before timeout.........
Thankfully, there is no regulation which says an a/c must land soonest when a pilot times out  
 
futureualpilot
Posts: 2406
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:52 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 34):
You are eligible for up to a 120 minute FDP extension under FAR 117 as long as they have not used once since their last 30 hour rest period, and as long as the flight crew is "fit for duty"

There are several caveats to extending flight crews under 117. Once the airplane moves under its own power with the intention of flight, all of that time counts towards the FDP limits. This particular issue is of note due to the operational nightmare airports like JFK can be when things go sideways for whatever reason i.e weather. Further, the over 30min extension applies to each individual crew member meaning each must agree to said extension. I can say from experience that when I have to worry about using up to a 2hr extension to complete a flight, I'm probably not going to feel fit to do so as I've already had a very long day.

[Edited 2014-05-30 18:51:28]
Life is better when you surf.
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2266
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 34):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 32):When the second and third captains were boarded they clearly believed they would be able to take off prior to timing out, but if you have ever been through JFK, especially when weather is a factor, you know that you never know how long it will take to get airborne. It's an operational pit, and the airlines have little control over aircraft flow there; it is also highly unpredictable for ground times. I have been there hundreds and hundreds of times and it rarely goes as you would expect (or smoothly.)
You are eligible for up to a 120 minute FDP extension under FAR 117 as long as they have not used once since their last 30 hour rest period, and as long as the flight crew is "fit for duty"

I am familiar. I timed out in the first week of 117 with the extension, but this article gives no relevant information about the FDP or crew rest issues involved unless I missed it (which is entirely possible; it was junk journalism and I read it pretty quickly.)

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 35):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 32):My last couple DL Connection flights were OO operated, and I've never had an issue with them either under the DL or the UA logo. I think it's an issue that hits the worst regionals more than the better ones, again part of the problem are the new rules, but some of it is also how well such challenges are handled.
Over the years, I've flown every Delta Connection carrier, including OO. I can't say any single carrier is better than any other. ***BUT*** I will say the Delta Connection operations based in LAX have never let me down. Further, the new SFO Shuttle Service is top-notch.

I have had pretty good luck on OO actually, as a commuter. I don't know how it happened, but the quote you cited wasn't actually mine, BTW.
 
32andBelow
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting futureualpilot (Reply 37):
There are several caveats to extending flight crews under 117. Once the airplane moves under its own power with the intention of flight, all of that time counts towards the FDP limits. Further, the over 30min extension applies to each individual crew member meaning each must agree to said extension. I can say from experience that when I have to worry about using up to a 2hr extension to complete a flight, I'm probably not going to feel fit to do so as I've already had a very long day.

Yes so this would mean you would need a 120 minute delay after block out. At my airline, all crew members are more than willing to take extensions during bad weather events, and to get the job done. It is funny, I believe most pilots would tend to take an extension on their leg to their home base as opposed to an RON location.
 
OOer
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 2:11 am

I love it how the media automatically blames Delta. Yes, it's a contracted flight by one of the Delta connection carriers I get it. But is it too much to ask for the media to do a little research when trying to play the blame game? Oh wait, it probably is.
 
N908AW
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 39):
Yes so this would mean you would need a 120 minute delay after block out. At my airline, all crew members are more than willing to take extensions during bad weather events, and to get the job done. It is funny, I believe most pilots would tend to take an extension on their leg to their home base as opposed to an RON location.

Well, without being a crew scheduler (or anybody else, for that matter) at Endeavor I can't really speak to the specific situation, but I'm guessing this was not a scenario where it was simply a matter of the pilot not extending. Not only would most pilots take the extension to go back to base, the airlines have come to more or less expect it.

But the extension can only be made in a few scenarios. You can only extend for your current day's flight duty period (FDP) and can only extend for two hours. You cannot extend for your 168 or your 672 hour FDP limits, and in no circumstance can you takeoff if it is known that any limit will be broken.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
ah414211
Posts: 169
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:12 pm

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 7):
Stay on mainline if you can. No staffing issues there for the most part. Regionals are going to be a nightmare for the foreseeable future.

Interesting...I've had more flights cancelled for lack of pilots on mainline in the past 2 years than I've had on the regionals......
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5309
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting N908AW (Reply 41):
You cannot extend for your 168 or your 672 hour FDP limits, and in no circumstance can you takeoff if it is known that any limit will be broken.

You can take off knowing your FDP will be broken with an extension, yes your correct you cannot break any cumulative restrictions.
 
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par13del
Posts: 10658
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 40):
I love it how the media automatically blames Delta. Yes, it's a contracted flight by one of the Delta connection carriers I get it. But is it too much to ask for the media to do a little research when trying to play the blame game?

Well, it could be that the media is finally catching up to the RJ industry, if the company offered flights on its own and did some contract work for DL that's one thing, but in today's world, a number of them do not own any a/c, do not have any routes, are told what their prices would be, and on and on, so is it really wrong to name the legacy who actually calls the shots?
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 3:17 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 2):
JFK is an "outstation" for DL?

Missed the line where the flight was leaving from JFK. Apologies.
Although it is a DL hub, it may not be a crew base for whichever DCI carrier that was operating that flight.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2297
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 3:47 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 22):
As I recall, the news report stated that two other pilots were assigned to the trip, but "timed out." That's an indication of a real staffing problem - i.e., where there's smoke, there's fire.

Sometimes the smoke is just smoke.

Quoting ah414211 (Reply 42):
Interesting...I've had more flights cancelled for lack of pilots on mainline in the past 2 years than I've had on the regionals.....

Thank you. As a 140K DM I have had several no shows/no pilot avaiable/timeouts/major delays on mainline. Regionals: 0 no shows. 0 timeouts. Several delays.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 36):
The folks at JFK who allowed the boarding with those captains would have known the conditions at JFK, if the pilot assignment was done elsewhere with notification to JFK, then its unfortunate they failed to use the expertise of the JFK personnel who would have told them the time-out timing was pretty close.Now if they just decided to take a chance on getting airborne before timeout.........Thankfully, there is no regulation which says an a/c must land soonest when a pilot times out

FAR117 is still pretty new, the folks on the ground wouldn't know unless pilot scheduling is right close by, I hear the future
schuling desk argue with Pilots all the time who want to trip trade, day swam and Compress their flying to have the max number of days off per month . The schedulers have the ALPA contract on their Desk and are subject experts on FAR117.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 4:30 am

Pretty poor handling of the situation by 9E and DL. That's very sad that an early morning flight out of crew base doesn't have the reserves needed to cover this situation (for whatever reason the pilot failed to be able to operate the flight) for the entire day. Obviously 9E is on the edge for having enough pilots to operate. And then DL doesn't handle the aftermath very well either. The passengers should be compensated well for this. After all vendors are ultimately the legacy's responsibility, and 9E isn't your everyday vendor for DL. It's their wholly-owned subsidiary.

Quoting flydeltajets (Reply 45):

Although it is a DL hub, it may not be a crew base for whichever DCI carrier that was operating that flight.

Understood, but in this case it was a crew base.
 
N353SK
Posts: 1024
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: DL Pax Upset: Pilot Doesn't Show

Sat May 31, 2014 11:48 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 35):
Over the years, I've flown every Delta Connection carrier, including OO. I can't say any single carrier is better than any other.

Skywest has bases in attractive west coast cities like SFO, PHX, DEN, SEA that tend to attract a lot more applicants than an airline like Endeavour who has bases in DTW and JFK.

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