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Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:49 am

There are reports of a Gulfstream IV crash at KBED just outside of Boston, in the past hour. Prayers for the crew and pax. Not many details right now.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...y.html?p1=ClickedOnBreakingNewsBox
 
Beefmoney
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:20 am

News is saying that it crashed on departure, and that its destination was Atlantic City, NJ. Looking through Flight Aware I see no flightplans to Atlantic City from KBED to give us a registration number, but it may have been deleted from the system since the accident. I do see, however, that there was a G-IV that arrived at KBED from Atlantic City earlier today. I guess we could put 2 and 2 together and assume that it was the same G-IV turning back around and going back to Atlantic City. That G-IV was N121JM.

Again, no confirmation at that at all, but just putting some relevent info out there.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:32 am

That looks probable. The recent activity of that a/c shows that it goes to ACY quite a bit. And it appears to be based at New Castle, DE.

It went up in a big fireball. Neighbors assume that nobody survived, based upon the explosion and fire. People are smelling it in South Boston, and KBED is well-Northeast of Boston, according to the Boston Globe.
 
Stackhouse007
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 6:50 am

CNN is now confirming that all 7 people onboard have died. Horrible news indeed. Very curious what happened. RIP.
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777Jet
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:55 am

That is very sad and tragic news. R.I.P. to those who lost their lives and condolences to their family / friends / colleagues...
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jkenworthy
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:27 am

 
UA772IAD
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:06 pm

Notable among the passengers, Lewis Katz, co-owner of the Philadelphia Inquirer:

From the Washington Post:

"Katz was one of two business moguls who bought out their partners last week with an $88 million bid for The Inquirer, which also operates the Philadelphia Daily News and the news website Philly.com"

The full blurb: http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...-11e3-a70e-ea1863229397_story.html

Condolences to the families.
 
RaginMav
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:05 pm

I saw this plane on the ramp at Jet Aviation KBED yesterday at about 7pm, with the cabin door open and the APU running. Prayers for those involved.
 
nkops
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:05 pm

Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
ltbewr
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:23 pm

First of all, condolences to the families and friends of those killed in this crash.

There are stories that there was a loud, explosion like noise at the time of the crash, they are still not sure if the noise was upon crashing or before.
One has to wonder if the plane was overloaded, or an error made on takeoff and clipped something or an engine/mechanical failure.
I would presume this a/c has a CVR/DVR and there would be recordings by the local ATC.
 
dumbell2424
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:12 pm

LiveATC archives from the time. All I could find was the tower calling out to him twice with no reply around 1m12s mark.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbed/KBED-Jun-01-2014-0130Z.mp3

edit to add...METAR at the time

KBED 010056Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 09/04 A3027 RMK AO2 SLP264 T00940044

[Edited 2014-06-01 10:14:00]
 
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cjg225
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 6):

I didn't recognize that name when I read your post the first time, but I should've. Our law school building is named after him. I can't recall if I ever met Mr. Katz, but he and his family gave quite generously to the school. I didn't realize the connection until I saw some classmates post "RIP Mr. Katz" on Facebook earlier.
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flyboy730
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 9):

First off, prayers and condolences to the families.

I can't imagine any situation that would have allowed the plane to be overloaded. I flew the G4 for a little over 3 years and we would routinely takeoff well within limits and fly for 8 hours and still have 2 hours of reserve fuel. We also did many 4-5 hour flights with 10 pax, 2 pilots, and a flight attendant and we're well within limits. So, I cannot imagine any scenario in which this plane could have been out of limits for a 1 hour flight with 7 people. The G4 was an awesome plane to fly and was very forgiving from a pilot's perspective. The only things I can even come up with in my mind are catastrophic things like maybe an engine came apart, FOD, or the whole blown tire chunks thru wing, systems, or engine type scenerio.

Obviously that's all pure speculation.

RIP
 
aviators99
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:21 pm

Or forgot to deploy flaps/spoilers?
 
canyonblue17
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:27 pm

I have a photo of this aircraft on MyAviation.net. Photo number 02288545. Moderators may add a link to this photo as i am currently unable to. Terrible news. Sympathies to all involved.
negative ghostrider the pattern is full
 
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eksath
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 8):
Quoting canyonblue17 (Reply 14):
I have a photo of this aircraft on MyAviation.net. Photo number 02288545. Moderators may add a link to this photo as i am currently unable to. Terrible news. Sympathies to all involved.

MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Mark L. Pollio

World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
compliancecheck
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting aviators99 (Reply 13):

Or forgot to deploy flaps/spoilers?

I'm curious as I know nothing about this aircraft type...does this a/c have a warning system for the misconfiguration?
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:31 pm

Wow, this is the first crash I can remember at Hanscom (my home airport). Apparently ran off the end of runway 11, which would put it about a mile and 3/4 from where I grew up (about 1/4 mile from the a very good friend of mine's parents' house).

Condolences to all affected.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
flyboy730
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:46 pm

Quoting compliancecheck (Reply 16):

Yes, it does have a takeoff configure warning system. I forget the exact parameters of the system but, I know it checks for flap setting, trim within limits, and IIRC it's speed brakes must be armed. Now, if the crew was extremely physically and mentally fatigued, then it's possible the warning system could have been chiming and them be so tired to recognize it.
 
flyboy730
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:49 pm

Also IIRC, the spoilers/speed brakes stow automatically.
 
n6238p
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:30 am

Let's not start pointing fingers at the crew before we know anything about the crash. They are people with families. This isn't a game, this is life.
To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
 
Ttailsteve
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting n6238p (Reply 20):

........and most of the time its the pilots fault. Just a fact. I'd place my bet on pilot error if I was a betting man.
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting Ttailsteve (Reply 21):
........and most of the time its the pilots fault. Just a fact. I'd place my bet on pilot error if I was a betting man.

Agreed, more often than not pilot error is a major contributing factor, or even the root cause. That doesn't mean its appropriate to play judge, jury and executioner on the basis of scant evidence.

This is one of my biggest pet hates, and is no different to accusing someone of being a burglar, fraudster or paedophile on the basis of nothing more than hearsay.

Wait for the report, which will give state the known facts and reasonable assumptions, then and only then should judgements be made.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:45 am

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 22):

Agreed, more often than not pilot error is a major contributing factor, or even the root cause. That doesn't mean its appropriate to play judge, jury and executioner on the basis of scant evidence.


I don't think mere speculation of possibilities from those who know the aircraft type would fall into this categorization.

We'll continue this thread after the NTSB report is released, about a year from now.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 10):
Quoting flyboy730 (Reply 12):
I can't imagine any situation that would have allowed the plane to be overloaded. I flew the G4 for a little over 3 years and we would routinely takeoff well within limits and fly for 8 hours and still have 2 hours of reserve fuel. We also did many 4-5 hour flights with 10 pax, 2 pilots, and a flight attendant and we're well within limits. So, I cannot imagine any scenario in which this plane could have been out of limits for a 1 hour flight with 7 people. The G4 was an awesome plane to fly and was very forgiving from a pilot's perspective. The only things I can even come up with in my mind are catastrophic things like maybe an engine came apart, FOD, or the whole blown tire chunks thru wing, systems, or engine type scenerio.

Obviously that's all pure speculation.

I had a good chat with an long time flying buddy who's currently flying a G-IV and G-V and we discussed this tragic accident. He really doesn't know what to think, but did agree that my guess of a flight control failure could be right. In any case, I think it will be a while before much is known.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 23):
We'll continue this thread after the NTSB report is released, about a year from now.

  
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
c680
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:27 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 24):
He really doesn't know what to think, but did agree that my guess of a flight control failure could be right.

That was my first thought when I learned that it was a runway over run and the plane never left the ground.

Same thing happen with a Challenger a few years back a TEB if I remember correctly. Controls were locked at rotation.

All I know is I'm paranoid about making sure the gust lock is FULLY off before taking the active.
My happy place is FL470 - what's yours?
 
Ttailsteve
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:37 am

For all we know it was an abort after V1 just like the Lear in SC a few years back. Poor decision making. Tragic. Most likely human error somewhere...Swiss cheese theory proven again....but human fault...faults most likely.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:51 am

The only interesting details I have gleaned from the public reports (boston globe is giving good coverage) are:

1. Tower witness says the plane never left the ground;

2. Aircraft was found 2000 feet past the end of Runway 11 in a straight line from that runway.

3. Witness (the only good civilian one quoted; the rest were garbage) says he heard a plane taking off, which he was used to hearing all the time, then he heard a boom, then the engine(s) accelerated really very loudly for several seconds, then a cataclysmic boom after which he didn't hear the engines. One possibility suggested by this (if accurate) is an engine failure followed by acceleration of the other engine in an attempt to take off [which should have been successful] OR a compressor stall followed by an abort after V1 with the "acceleration" being reverse thrust. Of course, there are a zillion other possibilities.

4. Locked controls seems pretty far-out, frankly. This would also mean (wouldn't it?), that they didn't fully test the controls in preflight.

5, Mr. Katz had invited Gov. Ed Rendell to join them on the trip, but he had had other commitments.


The aerial shot with the cockpit looking straight up at you (as it is pointed up on the incline on the other side of a gully), with no plane left behind it, is freaky.

[Edited 2014-06-01 21:56:12]

[Edited 2014-06-01 22:09:15]
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 6:01 am

Quoting c680 (Reply 25):
Same thing happen with a Challenger a few years back a TEB if I remember correctly. Controls were locked at rotation.

In that case, the airplane was overloaded and forward of the center of gravity limits. Please see:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...ef.aspx?ev_id=20040108X00033&key=1

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 27):
4. Locked controls seems pretty far-out, frankly. This would also mean (wouldn't it?), that they didn't fully test the controls in preflight.

Locked controls are one possibility, but I was speculating that there could have been a control failure.

It's certainly too soon to tell, maybe it was a botched aborted take off (aborted after V1?).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:53 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 28):
(aborted after V1?).

There are certain failures and configurations where the pilots know that the aircraft will not fly even though the speed is higher than V1.

The aircraft is going off the end of the runway. It is not going to fly. All the crew can do is attempt to get the aircraft as slow as possible when it goes off the runway, and pray.

Attempting to takeoff will only result in a low altitude stall and hard crash into the runway/ overrun.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:09 pm

Sorry, where or what is "KBED"? Earth?
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B6JFKH81
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:12 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 30):
Sorry, where or what is "KBED"? Earth?

Laurence G Hanscom Field Airport
Bedford, Massachusetts, USA

http://airnav.com/airport/KBED
"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:13 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 30):
Sorry, where or what is "KBED"? Earth?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=KBED

Hope that helps.









Hanscom, Mass.
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gordonsmall
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 30):
Sorry, where or what is "KBED"? Earth?

KBED is the ICAO identifier for Laurence G Hanscom airield near Bedford, Massachusetts.

[Edited 2014-06-02 06:14:50]
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
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eksath
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:48 pm

Anybody know what the gross weight takeoff distance is for the GIV?
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gordonsmall
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting eksath (Reply 34):
Anybody know what the gross weight takeoff distance is for the GIV?

5450ft unfactored at SL, at 74,600lb MTOW.

Typical weight with 4 PAX and fuel for 1 hour plus reserves would be around 54-55,000lb and unfactored takeoff of around 3250ft @ SL.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
onetogo
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting eksath (Reply 34):

Anybody know what the gross weight takeoff distance is for the GIV?

"Takeoff distance" isn't really a thing. When we talk about runway required for takeoff, specifically "balanced field length" we're talking about accelerate-stop and accelerate-go distance. How much runway the airplane uses before it lifts off is irrelevant. The relevant number is how much distance is required to accelerate to just below V1, have an engine failure, abort the aircraft and bring it to a stop. Balanced field length for a G IV is probably around 4,500 ft. 11/29 is 7,000.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
Typical weight with 4 PAX and fuel for 1 hour plus reserves would be around 54-55,000lb and unfactored takeoff of around 3250ft @ SL.

Runway 11 is about 7000 feet. They went 2000 feet beyond the end of it. So 9000 feet total. And it should have been airborne with 3750 feet still available. Wow.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:10 pm

Appears to have stopped right here:

http://goo.gl/maps/nOYQZ

I was confused at first, as initial reports said "2000 feet past the end of the paved surface", so I assumed past the overrun. But that would have likely put it in a parking lot quite close to buildings.

Probably took out the localizer antenna for 11 as well.

EDIT: Just realized that the red objects in the photos are probably pieces of the localizer, so yeah....

[Edited 2014-06-02 14:12:36]

[Edited 2014-06-02 14:16:51]
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Flaps
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:35 pm

This accident report will make for an interesting read. Very high performance aircraft on a short mission with plenty of runway available goes off the end at high speed. Clearly something(s) went very very wrong.
 
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eksath
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:01 am

Mark Garfinkel who has many nice pictures in the database was pool reporter and got the following of the crash site. It is quite different than the long shots as this shows the entire fuselage or what is remaining of it.



http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion...ers_in_hanscom_luxury_jet_wreckage
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:17 am

The skid marks on the runway are quite telling, they exited the runway at speed, shearing off at least 1 of the mains right away, so they exited the runway at high speed. Will be interesting to see what caused them to not rotate.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
crj900lr
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 27):
Mr. Katz had invited Gov. Ed Rendell to join them on the trip, but he had had other commitments.

He has not been Governor in years.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 42):
He has not been Governor in years.

He retains his title as an ex-Governor. Just like Mr. Clinton is still called President Clinton when you address him. Or Mr. Huckabee is called Governor.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:18 am

Turns out there was a "real" FDR and a "real" CVR on this aircraft, which have been recovered, so it likely will be clear in short order what happened. That will be a relief to the families, and others interested.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:18 pm

Looking at some more of the pictures today, it doesn't appear that the reversers were deployed at the time of impact. Looking at where the nose gear and main gear a located, there is no dragging. That tells me that enough lift was being generated to have some elevator and roll control until at least the impact with the localizer antenna where a more substantial drag mark appears.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
flyboy730
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:16 pm

RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:37 pm

How long does it typically take for the NTSB to release some preliminary details? We know they've already listened to and analyzed the data, so my curiosity is very high.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting flyboy730 (Reply 46):

It will probably take several weeks, as they still have to analyze the FDR plus listening to the CVR. These actually do take a lot of time. Especially with the CVR, it is not just about listening to the words, its listening to sounds in the background, what the different sounds mean. It is very time consuming, with a room full of people listening to small segments repeatedly until everyone is satisfied they have analyzed everything.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 45):
Looking at some more of the pictures today, it doesn't appear that the reversers were deployed at the time of impact.

Difficult to tell on the GIV, the thrust reversers are held open with hydraulic pressure, there is no mechanical lock. If hydraulic pressure was lost during the crash (highly likely given the damage) then the doors could close, giving the impression they were never used. Eyewitness reports the precieved sound of increased engine thrust shortly before impact, which could well be the distinctive sound of the thrust reversers being misinterpreted by a layman.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Gulfstream IV Crash Kbed

Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 48):

I was unsure if they were hydraulic or mechanical. The increasing thrust sound would be a good indicator that they were engaged at some point during the event.
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.

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