Why Does BOS Have Way More Intl Carriers Than PHL?

727LOVER · Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:55 am

Isn't Philadelphia like double the size of Boston?

Excluding Canada......

BOS has:

Aer Lingus
Air France
Alitalia
British Airways
Copa
Emirates
Hainan
Iberia
Icelandair
Japan
Lufthansa
SATA
Swiss
TACV
Turkish
Virgin Atlantic

PHL has:

British Airways
Lufthansa
Qatar

Now at first, I was thinking maybe it's because US hubs there......and it provides the TATL service But even that, US has never served the Orient...and BOS has 2 Asian carriers.

The only other thing I can think of is it is too close to JFK

Your thoughts?

Prost · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:05 am

Boston is rich with some of the worlds leading research universities. Does that play a part in the equation? Perhaps Boston's economy is much more international than Philadelphia's?

adamh8297 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:05 am

I would add Air Canada to both airports.

Also - besides US - DL flies PHL-CDG under the JV and AM flies a PHL-PVR charter.

In BOS, B6 DL US and AA have international flights too.

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
The only other thing I can think of is it is too close to JFK

Proximity to EWR is probably the better reason.

Rafabozzolla · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:14 am

My guess it that Boston also attracts many more international tourists?

deltairlines · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:27 am

PHL also has EWR and to a lesser extent JFK nearby (in drivable range). In fact, there's a decent population overlap between PHL and EWR, so that definitely takes away some international traffic from PHL.

kgaiflyer · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:41 am

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 5):
PHL also has EWR and to a lesser extent JFK nearby (in drivable range).

In fact, there are folks that work in NYC who live in eastern Pennsylvania.

In addition, the Acela and Amtrak are more of a factor in the sprawling PHL area than in Boston

TPADave · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:43 am

I think this is a very fair question and to an extent it reflects the fact that Philadelphia (unfairly) gets overshadowed by NY to the north and DC to the south. While Boston certainly has its share of research universities and a large business presence, Philadelphia has a number of very well respected institutions itself (Penn, Drexel, etc.) plus a large corporate presence.

Much of PHL's traffic will simply connect or leak to EWR/JFK. I'd argue that BOS is slightly overserved given its size and PHL slightly underserved as far as foreign carriers.

IAHWorldflyer · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:47 am

In addition to proximity to New York, you might look at the types of companies that call each respective city home. I'd think the Boston economy would be more internationally focused, with tech and the universities. Philadelphia, it would seem to me, has more domestic types of operations, such as chemicals, refining, and telecom.

jfklganyc · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:55 am

1. Boston is closer to Europe. Less fuel burn

2. Tourists go to Boston. Beyond school trips to the Liberty Bell, tourism to Philly is less

3. Major US hub as already mentioned. No major hub in BOS

4. I'll get flamed here...reputation. Which goes hand and hand with #2. Philly is not a city of Prestige...Boston is. I mean no offense to my bros in Philly...it's is reality though

2travel2know2 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:00 am

IMHO, if PHL has some interesting Latin American traffic demand, PHL might be on CM radar by now.
When it comes to international service in the U.S. East Coast; MHT/PVD, BDL, PHL, PIT, BWI and RDU seem to be under BOS, NYC (EWR/JFK) and IAD's shadow, even if some of those airport may already be able to support some limited international (read Latin American/Caribbean) seasonal or permanent service.

boeing773er · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:34 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 6):

That's the truth, I live about an hour and a half away from both PHL and EWR. EWR is always my first choice when it comes to flying (besides ABE, but I haven't flown out of there in a long time). EWR is so much more convinent for me since I just get on 78, but with PHL I have to go down the turnpike, to 76, to 95.

Mir · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:43 am

PHL has a large hub for a US carrier, BOS does not. So if you're a European airline looking at potential market, you've got BOS pretty much to yourself except for BA/VS. If you serve PHL you'll have to compete with US.

-Mir

usairways85 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:44 am

As mentioned PHL has the US hub. So while you don't have a wide range of carriers you do have service to:
LHR, MAN, GLA, EDI, DUB, SNN, AMS, BRU, MAD, BCN, LIS, ZRH, FRA, MUC, FCO, VCE, ATH, CDG, TLV, DOH.

Who knows where this list stands in a few years but I bet NRT will be added sooner rather than later.

BOStonsox · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Isn't Philadelphia like double the size of Boston?

This comes up fairly often:
Philadelphia's MSA has 6.03 million people (6th in the nation) vs. Boston's MSA which has only 4.68 million (10th in the nation), however Philadelphia's CSA has 7.15 million people (8th in the nation) vs. Boston's CSA which has 8.04 million people (6th in the nation).

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 5):
PHL also has EWR and to a lesser extent JFK nearby (in drivable range). In fact, there's a decent population overlap between PHL and EWR, so that definitely takes away some international traffic from PHL.

That's really it. BOS is up in the corner with nobody else within a four-hour drive. BDL might be able to support some TATL service, but for Asia and Latin America, they will have to drive two hours to BOS or JFK. BOS is twice the distance from JFK/EWR compared to PHL.

prosa · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:25 am

Three of the foreign airlines in BOS - Aer Lingus, SATA, and TACV - are there mainly for cultural/ethnic reasons that wouldn't apply in PHL.

crownvic · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:40 am

Quoting IAHWorldFlyer (Reply 8):
In addition to proximity to New York, you might look at the types of companies that call each respective city home. I'd think the Boston economy would be more internationally focused, with tech and the universities. Philadelphia, it would seem to me, has more domestic types of operations, such as chemicals, refining, and telecom.

Don't forget about pharmaceuticals. PHL is a huge city for this. I disagree with all the comments about Boston being of a higher level than PHL. The primary answer is what has been mentioned most and that is proximity to surrounding large cities where BOS pretty much sits alone. Besides, if the international tourists tasted a Philly cheesesteak, a Philly Pretzel, some Tastykakes and pizza, every airline in the world would line up for routes to PHL

slcdeltarumd11 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:48 am

I think its as simple as a US air hub. Not as much room for other carriers.

Look at how many destinations PHL has to Europe. I would say its far to compare destinations but why airlines? No one but us cares who operates them for business and demand its destinations served N/S not who owns the plane.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 6):

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 5):
PHL also has EWR and to a lesser extent JFK nearby (in drivable range).

In fact, there are folks that work in NYC who live in eastern Pennsylvania.

Yeah but that part of PA is nowhere near PHL and its a horrific way to have your life go by sitting on I-80......

There is certainly some overlap in NJ between the two airports EWR/PHL but there is certainly some between NYC and BOS. I would like to see a comparison of destinations not airlines, of course BOS will have more carriers PHL has a full international hub by one airline so theres less opportunities.

ua900 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Thread starter):
Now at first, I was thinking maybe it's because US hubs there......and it provides the TATL service But even that, US has never served the Orient...and BOS has 2 Asian carriers.

The only other thing I can think of is it is too close to JFK

Your thoughts?

CM and AV / TA due to VFR traffic. LH / LX due to business ties and much stronger tourism. I don't want to get into a big debate on who is better, but most people in Europe hold BOS in higher regards, part revolutionary history, part well kept downtown, part JFK allure.

People in my neighborhood think of PHL as a grimy rust belt industrial town with cheese steak eating Camaro drivers with 80s hair cuts. With BOS they first think of the BOS symphony/pops, Kennedy, and an affinity for Europe. Perhaps it's not fair but that's how many people see it.

IcelandairMSP · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:11 am

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 14):
This comes up fairly often:
Philadelphia's MSA has 6.03 million people (6th in the nation) vs. Boston's MSA which has only 4.68 million (10th in the nation), however Philadelphia's CSA has 7.15 million people (8th in the nation) vs. Boston's CSA which has 8.04 million people (6th in the nation).

I was typing this and then accidentally closed my browser window. I'd add too that the BOS MSA is also a fair bit wealthier than the PHL MSA with BOS at #5 ($26,856 which is slightly higher than even NY) and PHL at #26 ($23,699) and at a per-capita level that constitutes a fairly sizable gap. So, on a statistical level, Boston is larger and wealthier than Philadelphia.

As mentioned, there's also a drain on international passengers from the PHL area to EWR, JFK, and IAD where flights are more plentiful and perhaps less expensive.

But regarding that: none of those airports are less than an 1.5 hours from Philadelphia which seems like a bit of a commute for front-of-cabin passengers who are, from what I've gleaned, not that willing to inconvenience themselves with a substantial drive from where they land. Though US/AA serves a lot of European destinations, I think I remember Mah4546 (who always seems to have the numbers) saying in another thread about PHL vs. JFK that most PHL were connecting (to Florida largely) which, comparing that there are already a lot more Int'l seats to BOS on far more carriers, suggests the Boston business market is way more international than the Philadelphia one and the multiplicative effect of having 4+ major international research institution versus 1/2+ major ones casts a wider net.

hufftheweevil · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:17 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 2):
Also - besides US - DL flies PHL-CDG under the JV and AM flies a PHL-PVR charter.

In BOS, B6 DL US and AA have international flights too.

The OP is asking about international CARRIERS, not flights.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 9):
Philly is not a city of Prestige...Boston is. I mean no offense to my bros in Philly...it's is reality though

I live in Philly and have to agree with this.

Seriously, though, I don't understand why VS hasn't tried PHL yet...especially now that they have A330s. In fact, there was talk, about a year ago, that the EU wouldn't agree to the AA/US merger if we didn't get another competitor on the LHR-PHL route because the merged AA and BA (which already work together) would have a monopoly. I suspected VS would be the best choice for that. But I haven't heard anything more on it since last year.

And to look at the rest of the BOS list:

Aer Lingus - US already has DUB and SNN
Air France - US already has CDG
Alitalia - US already has FCO and VCE
Copa - Not enough demand
Emirates - I could see this possible in the future
Hainan - I could see some China service in the future, maybe a Chinese carrier
Iberia - US already has BCN and MAD
Icelandair - Not enough demand
Japan - I could see some Japan service in the future, probably US though
SATA - US already has LIS
Swiss - US already has ZRH
TACV - Very little demand (How does BOS even have demand for this?)
Turkish - Not enough demand

burchfiel · Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:47 am

Question: could US use one of their A330s to profitably operate a route from PHL to NRT? I know this is a moot question given the impending merger, but it doesn't seem like there are many A330s operated by American carriers on mainland US - Asia routes, aside from DL at SEA.

goldorak · Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:49 am

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 20):
The OP is asking about international CARRIERS, not flights.

Yes, but with the various JV in place, it is also pertinent to add flights to the equation. Those JV are usually metal neutral. The example given above is a good one : DL flies PHL-CDG and it is the "same" as if it was AF.

OP3000 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:00 am

Most if not all of the reasons have already been well said on here, but I would underscore that it is not just the number of colleges but the amount of international students the schools in Boston attract vis a vis just about any other city in North America sans New York. I went to grad school in PHL and other than Penn and Drexel the other schools attract way fewer international students than the 25 or so schools in the BOS catchment area with over a 5% foreign student percentage.

The other factor also worth stressing is the US hub. For example in another live thread there is talk of a possible new IB flight to PHL, but that will likely be a non starter because of the fact that US already serves the route. By the same token LH's service would likely disappear after US dropped Star Alliance were it not for the SAP corporate contract that links their north american headquarters with the company's home country.

airway1 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:23 am

Boston is not only universities.

Major International Medical Center
Pharma Industry HQs and research facilities
Huge IT industry and most players have large presence in Boston
Financial Industry Mini Hub with major Mutual Funds based in Boston
Tourism
New England Hub
Huge investment in Convention Center
Executive Training at the universities brings in large amount of Business class executives
Alumni going back to visit Boston
large percentage of international students at boarding schools in New England
A lot of those airlines coming in I bet have executives who used to study in Boston and saw the demand for air travel

A lot of factors makes Boston attractive to the international airlines. The numbers coming out from Emirates and JAL says it all.

bagoldex · Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:51 am

Philadelphia wouldn't have a lot of the flights it does if it wasn't a hub. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I want to say for example the O & D traffic on Boston-London is about 500,000 per year and Philadelphia is closer to 175,000.

usairways85 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 16):
Don't forget about pharmaceuticals. PHL is a huge city for this

Actually while the Philadelphia area is big with Pharma and some new Biotech's they are located in a widespread area. There is only one major Pharma within city limits and a few satellite offices in the immediate suburbs with other major offices down in Wilmington and up in the Princeton area. As mentioned the Pharma to the north has EWR as an alternative.

However Pharma is only growing in PHL with the massive build up of the hospitals and science centers.

cjg225 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:12 pm

Probably because there is no redeeming quality of Philadelphia. I'd save the Liberty Bell and Tony Luke's Cheesesteaks and that's about it. The fact that I have survived 24 years in the general vicinity of that filthy city is a testament to my strength as a human being, I think.

And let's also not forget that PHL is one of the worst airports in the country. That's not me just hating on Philly as a whole, as I am well aware that I do. In my travels, I dread going through PHL more than I do any other airport.

There really isn't the international draw to Philly like there is to Boston. It just isn't as well known overseas, I feel.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 26):

I work for one of those pharma companies. We are one of the only companies to have a major facility in the Philly area. There are many pharma companies with major facilities around EWR, though (including us... we alone have 3 major facilities up that way including our corporate HQ).

hohd · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting bagoldex (Reply 25):

I agree. If it was not for the hub, PHL will not have service to most cities except LHR, CDG, FRA and AMS (and many be ZRH). In fact it may lose some service as the combined AA/US consolidates somewhat at JFK.

jfk777 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting TPADave (Reply 7):
Much of PHL's traffic will simply connect or leak to EWR/JFK. I'd argue that BOS is slightly overserved given its size and PHL slightly underserved as far as foreign carriers.

Boston serves a very affuent area of 6 states with JFK being te nearest international airport. PHL is sandwiched between the two most important cities on the east coats and arguably the entire country. The fact that PHL has as much international service as it does is a testament to how much demand there is for Europe on the east coast that every 100 to 200 miles another big airport can exist. There is probably no where else in the world for so much demand for European travel in such a concentrated area as the USA east coast.

No that US and AA have merged we shave started to see the Oneworld alliance build up flights to PHL, why else would Qatar fly there ? Its not for the 20 passengers daily that actuavlly go to Philadelphia. Could JAL be far behind ? IF Cathay flies there then AA really has a grea hub there.

tlecam · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 14):
This comes up fairly often:
Philadelphia's MSA has 6.03 million people (6th in the nation) vs. Boston's MSA which has only 4.68 million (10th in the nation), however Philadelphia's CSA has 7.15 million people (8th in the nation) vs. Boston's CSA which has 8.04 million people (6th in the nation).

Interesting, I had heard of the MSA, but not the CSA. Thanks for posting.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):

Probably because there is no redeeming quality of Philadelphia. I'd save the Liberty Bell and Tony Luke's Cheesesteaks and that's about it. The fact that I have survived 24 years in the general vicinity of that filthy city is a testament to my strength as a human being, I think.

Wow, as a Bostonian that's harsh. I've always had a good time in Philly. The Broad Street guys have given us some great hockey games over the years.

Quoting airway1 (Reply 24):
Major International Medical Center
Pharma Industry HQs and research facilities
Huge IT industry and most players have large presence in Boston
Financial Industry Mini Hub with major Mutual Funds based in Boston
Tourism
New England Hub
Huge investment in Convention Center
Executive Training at the universities brings in large amount of Business class executives
Alumni going back to visit Boston
large percentage of international students at boarding schools in New England
A lot of those airlines coming in I bet have executives who used to study in Boston and saw the demand for air travel

Nice list. Another huge industry is consumer goods with manufacturing done in Asia. Both Converse and Reebok are headquartered in the area. Converse is actually building a brand new corporate headquarters right next to the Boston Garden / North Station, about a 3 minute drive from Logan. Both send employees to Asia frequently. Reebok also sends a lot of employees to the mothership, Adidas, in Europe.

The other thing is that many of the high end consulting firms have large Boston offices. Often, Boston is one of the larger offices for those firms, behind NYC, Chicago, San Francisco and possibly DC depending upon the firm).

These firms have a high percentage of fliers who purchase expensive tickets - McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, Bain, PriceWaterhouse (alone has 6000 employees in Boston), Deloitte, EY, Accenture, IBM etc...

[Edited 2014-06-03 06:38:06]

SCQ83 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:36 pm

New England is the world capital of education... the Boston Area (stretching till NH or RI) is to higher-education what New York or London is to finance. And higher-education is a fast-growing business since many people from the so-called BRICs (and alikes) are eager to study in the US (hence the recent boom in Asian/ME services).

No offense, but Philadelphia has nothing like that (with the exception of UPenn).

jfklganyc and airway1 have it perfectly explained.

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 20):
SATA - US already has LIS
TACV - Very little demand (How does BOS even have demand for this?)

SATA and TACV are VFR shuttles. Large Portuguese (mainly Azoreian) and Cape Verdian communities in MA and RI.

tlecam · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:41 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 31):
SATA and TACV are VFR shuttles. Large Portuguese (mainly Azoreian) and Cape Verdian communities in MA and RI.

And the Brazilian population is growing. The business ties aren't there yet to make BOS-Brazil flights profitable for a US carrier, but a flight to Brazil will happen at some point in the coming years.

zrs70 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:44 pm

Going back pre-deregulation, Boston was the second largest transatlantic gateway (behind JFK). It's truly impressive how many foreign carriers are there compared to other cities of similar size! I was in Boston recently and caught some great photos of the international traffic:

https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A4J0DiRHJprJ2I

SCQ83 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:50 pm

Quoting tlecam (Reply 32):
And the Brazilian population is growing. The business ties aren't there yet to make BOS-Brazil flights profitable for a US carrier, but a flight to Brazil will happen at some point in the coming years.

I am a bit more skeptical about Brazil flights. Those Brazilian VFR in BOS can (very) easily connect anywhere else in the East Coast. Via MIA you can get basically anywhere in Brazil (or anywhere in LATAM) one-stop.

I am not aware of such large synergies with Brazil or LATAM at large in the BOS area to grant such flight. And it does not look like the Brazilian economy is growing (if it is growing at all) any more. A BOS-Sao Paulo would be a very long flight with not that many connection opportunities at both ends.

OP3000 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):
Probably because there is no redeeming quality of Philadelphia. I'd save the Liberty Bell and Tony Luke's Cheesesteaks and that's about it. The fact that I have survived 24 years in the general vicinity of that filthy city is a testament to my strength as a human being, I think.

You may have had a lot of people share that viewpoint in the 80s and even the 90s, but not anymore. Center City Phila entirely extending out to Northern Liberties, Fishtown and the east side of West Philly has redeveloped dramatically. The volume of upscale suburban residents who go into town on weeknights and weekends to dine and entertain themselves speak for that. There are condos in the Rittenhouse Square area that go for $1.5 million-$2 million and there are plenty of wealthy people that used to live in the suburbs as far away as possible now moving into the middle of town in significant numbers. Granted like all of New York all of Philly proper is distinctly urban in style and will never be as "clean" as River North/Mag Mile in Chicago, the Boston Common/Copley area or Dupont Circle/Georgetown in DC.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 29):
No that US and AA have merged we shave started to see the Oneworld alliance build up flights to PHL, why else would Qatar fly there ? Its not for the 20 passengers daily that actuavlly go to Philadelphia. Could JAL be far behind ? IF Cathay flies there then AA really has a grea hub there.

The US hub will continue to grow internationally as the merger will bring greater scale in connecting traffic beyond the Northeast, but I think QR was a one-off in the short to middle term. There is talk about IB but that may just be a swap of service to MAD with AA, and PHL is too far east as a connecting hub for Pacific carriers like CX or JL to get traffic. JL is flying the 787 to BOS but the local market to/from Japan is much greater because of education and research.

rfields5421 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Quoting TPADave (Reply 7):
reflects the fact that Philadelphia (unfairly) gets overshadowed by NY to the north and DC to the south.

We have a winner -

Quoting prosa (Reply 15):
are there mainly for cultural/ethnic reasons that wouldn't apply in PHL.

TACV only flies to BOS - no other US destination
SATA only flies to BOS full-time and seasonal to OAK.
Aer Lingus flies to several US destinations - including EWR and JFK and IAD

Also a important factor. Where the cultural/ethnic communities in PHL, have access to their 'old country' airlines at NYC airports.

[Edited 2014-06-03 07:02:14]

OP3000 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:15 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 36):
Aer Lingus flies to several US destinations - including EWR and JFK and IAD

They would probably fly to PHL if it were not for the US flight/hub, and the same is probably true for AZ. The Irish and Italian communities in Philly are huge.

2travel2know2 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting hufftheweevil (Reply 20):
Copa - Not enough demand

That would be for PHL-PTY O/D but not for PHL-PTY CM hub destinations.
PTY O/D alone can't possibly sustain daily non-stop to BOS, PTY hub can.

iyerhari · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:46 pm

I think I can think of two other points - most US based carriers are not interested in BOS and seem to be more interested in their so-called hubs hence far superior international brands have camped in Boston and doing well complimented with multiple avenues. But the limitation also is limited domestic direct flight options - ask a Boston based consultant like me who has a tough-time searching for direct destinations compared to the likes of other bigger hubs. I still think there's substantial international destinations that can offered from BOS - Israel, Mexico, Brazil, Scandinavia and maybe Manchester, UK.

idlewild · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:52 pm

Isn't PHL kind of small to support much more traffic? They seem to have a thriving domestic route network. Maybe opening up ACY for International traffic would help Philly (as well as NJ) get more tourism and business dollars. I believe there's a decent rail system between the two cities. I also imagine that ACY will have better TO/L performance because of its location. I think.

commavia · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 35):
PHL is too far east as a connecting hub for Pacific carriers like CX or JL to get traffic

Not at all. PHL is in a great location to handle connecting traffic flows between Asia and the northeast, and really the entire eastern U.S. Now, given the AA-JAL JV, and the merger, I view PHL-NRT as a definite question of when, not if - whether it's a JAL 787 or an AA 787 or 777, I think PHL-NRT is a virtually certainty.

airbazar · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:04 pm

Most people have already answered but I'll sum it up this way: Forward looking economy.
Say or think what you will about our liberal policies but they create good paying jobs, lots of them and jobs that are relevant in a global economy.

steex · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting idlewild (Reply 40):
Maybe opening up ACY for International traffic would help Philly (as well as NJ) get more tourism and business dollars. I believe there's a decent rail system between the two cities. I also imagine that ACY will have better TO/L performance because of its location. I think.

I don't believe there is anything stopping international service to ACY, there's just no reason to serve it. Nobody would use a flight into ACY and then rail to reach PHL from an international destination when that possibility is already available with far, far more options at EWR.

There is no reason ACY would have better field performance than PHL - they have virtually identical elevations and maximum runway length, with PHL actually having a slight edge in both (it's slightly lower than ACY and has 500' of extra runway, not to mention a second runway at 9500' that could handle widebody movements).

hufftheweevil · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting idlewild (Reply 40):

Isn't PHL kind of small to support much more traffic? They seem to have a thriving domestic route network. Maybe opening up ACY for International traffic would help Philly (as well as NJ) get more tourism and business dollars. I believe there's a decent rail system between the two cities. I also imagine that ACY will have better TO/L performance because of its location. I think.

PHL is definitely not "small", but we are at capacity. And I get the impression that you think PHL is not big on international traffic, in general. If that's so, see reply 13 (pasted below). PHL is US's largest international hub. Besides, I don't think the airport(s) are what's limiting tourism.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 13):
As mentioned PHL has the US hub. So while you don't have a wide range of carriers you do have service to:
LHR, MAN, GLA, EDI, DUB, SNN, AMS, BRU, MAD, BCN, LIS, ZRH, FRA, MUC, FCO, VCE, ATH, CDG, TLV, DOH.

OP3000 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 41):
Not at all. PHL is in a great location to handle connecting traffic flows between Asia and the northeast, and really the entire eastern U.S. Now, given the AA-JAL JV, and the merger, I view PHL-NRT as a definite question of when, not if - whether it's a JAL 787 or an AA 787 or 777, I think PHL-NRT is a virtually certainty.

I factor that in already, but how much of that oneworld Northeast connecting traffic is not already served through either connections and/or catchment area via ORD, JFK and now BOS? Someone doing HVN-NRT would just as easily take the train or drive to JFK and someone doing SYR-NRT or ROC-NRT can just as easily take a US flight to BOS. PHL-NRT may happen but I do not see it nearly as quickly as you do.

commavia · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 45):
how much of that oneworld Northeast connecting traffic is not already served through either connections and/or catchment area via ORD, JFK and now BOS?

Virtually none via JFK and BOS, I suspect. BOS offers very limited connectivity, and only to a very few places, some with schedules inconvenient for or completely inconsistent with 2-way connectivity to/from NRT. JFK offers absolutely nothing in the way of connections outside of BOS, YYZ and YUL. ORD is the only one that provides 2-way connectivity, but again, in some cases its with suboptimal schedules, long layovers, etc., and ORD doesn't even offer connectivity at all to many of the smaller northeast markets. PHL is one of only two megahubs in the northeast - the other being EWR - and it is a virtually certainty, at least to me, that it will get a nonstop to Asia. Not to mention, this isn't just about the northeast - PHL also provides ample connectivity up and down the east coast to lots of small markets in the southeast and mid Atlantic that, in some cases, are today only reachable on AA via DFW, if at all.

OP3000 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 46):

I still see most volume and most of the attractive yields already being redundantly served through connections or catchment areas of other airports, so while it might work I do not PHL-NRT is the best new route for JL to put a 787 on. We shall see what they decide.

cjpmaestro · Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
Quoting OP3000 (Reply 35):
PHL is too far east as a connecting hub for Pacific carriers like CX or JL to get traffic

Not at all. PHL is in a great location to handle connecting traffic flows between Asia and the northeast, and really the entire eastern U.S. Now, given the AA-JAL JV, and the merger, I view PHL-NRT as a definite question of when, not if - whether it's a JAL 787 or an AA 787 or 777, I think PHL-NRT is a virtually certainty

Agree. With the AA merger and OW - this is probably a matter of time either on their own metal or JAL. There is a thriving Asian population in Philadelphia and I think I read somewhere it's the largest city with the largest Asian population without a direct to Asia.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 36):
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 36):
Aer Lingus flies to several US destinations - including EWR and JFK and IAD

They would probably fly to PHL if it were not for the US flight/hub, and the same is probably true for AZ. The Irish and Italian communities in Philly are huge.

Again - true. Though with the flights US/AA already have - they don't need it.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 34):

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):
Probably because there is no redeeming quality of Philadelphia. I'd save the Liberty Bell and Tony Luke's Cheesesteaks and that's about it. The fact that I have survived 24 years in the general vicinity of that filthy city is a testament to my strength as a human being, I think.

You may have had a lot of people share that viewpoint in the 80s and even the 90s, but not anymore. Center City Phila entirely extending out to Northern Liberties, Fishtown and the east side of West Philly has redeveloped dramatically. The volume of upscale suburban residents who go into town on weeknights and weekends to dine and entertain themselves speak for that. There are condos in the Rittenhouse Square area that go for $1.5 million-$2 million and there are plenty of wealthy people that used to live in the suburbs as far away as possible now moving into the middle of town in significant numbers. Granted like all of New York all of Philly proper is distinctly urban in style and will never be as "clean" as River North/Mag Mile in Chicago, the Boston Common/Copley area or Dupont Circle/Georgetown in DC.

You were nice to answer this post. The typical Philadelphia bashing. It was worth ignoring.

Quoting tlecam (Reply 29):

Quoting airway1 (Reply 24):
Major International Medical Center
Pharma Industry HQs and research facilities
Huge IT industry and most players have large presence in Boston
Financial Industry Mini Hub with major Mutual Funds based in Boston
Tourism
New England Hub
Huge investment in Convention Center
Executive Training at the universities brings in large amount of Business class executives
Alumni going back to visit Boston
large percentage of international students at boarding schools in New England
A lot of those airlines coming in I bet have executives who used to study in Boston and saw the demand for air travel

Nice list. Another huge industry is consumer goods with manufacturing done in Asia. Both Converse and Reebok are headquartered in the area. Converse is actually building a brand new corporate headquarters right next to the Boston Garden / North Station, about a 3 minute drive from Logan. Both send employees to Asia frequently. Reebok also sends a lot of employees to the mothership, Adidas, in Europe.

The other thing is that many of the high end consulting firms have large Boston offices. Often, Boston is one of the larger offices for those firms, behind NYC, Chicago, San Francisco and possibly DC depending upon the firm).

These firms have a high percentage of fliers who purchase expensive tickets - McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, Bain, PriceWaterhouse (alone has 6000 employees in Boston), Deloitte, EY, Accenture, IBM etc...

You'd think Philadelphia only produces cheesesteaks. Philadelphia has the seventh largest metropolitan economy in the United States. You've got Comcast, Colonial Penn, CIGNA, Aramark, GlaxoSmithKline, Pep Boys and many more. It's significant education and health care universities and hospitals. Government entities. The list goes on. Philadelphia's economy is nothing to look down on and is impressive in its own right.

Here's my take - good for Boston at having such a diverse international presence, but Philadelphia's options are healthy and will only grow with the merger and with OW. I think being part of Star, travelers would head up the road to EWR, but those days are gone and I'm sorry, no one is going to travel to JFK to catch a flight from the Philadelphia area. The difference of travel between EWR and JFK is significant. Philadelphia offers more options to OW carriers than JFK does unless they are just going to New York.

jetblue1965 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting cjpmaestro (Reply 47):

Agree. With the AA merger and OW - this is probably a matter of time either on their own metal or JAL. There is a thriving Asian population in Philadelphia and I think I read somewhere it's the largest city with the largest Asian population without a direct to Asia.

Largest without Asia, yes

"Thriving" ? I'm not so sure. It's like 30K chinese, 14K vietnamese, and trace amounts of other East Asian ethnic groups.

The premise for the flight should be business ties and connections, not for the ethnic traffic.

strfyr51 · Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:53 pm

Quoting IAHWorldFlyer (Reply 7):
In addition to proximity to New York, you might look at the types of companies that call each respective city home. I'd think the Boston economy would be more internationally focused, with tech and the universities. Philadelphia, it would seem to me, has more domestic types of operations, such as chemicals, refining, and telecom.

And Medicine! We have some of the TOP medical schools in the country, they're all concentrated between Broad St (1400 W) and 36th and Market St (west)
We turn out a LOT of Doctors, Nurses and Engineers.

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