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awthompson
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A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:33 pm

Over thousands of videos and as many actual landings, this is my first time to clearly observe an airliner's body actually flex or bend (besides those occasions where an actual accident occurred). Watch this video (link as per rule #2d) on full screen on HD setting and study at around 1:13, see what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK5Nm_rKu50

Albeit this is a hard landing in challenging weather conditions and a particularly slender aircraft type.
One of the commenters states that the aircraft was out of service for some time after this landing, alleging that this was one of the hardest A346 landings ever recorded. I cannot verify the accuracy of that comment. I would certainly want the fuselage structure carefully inspected after this, not so much worried about the wings/gear.

I don't believe I've seen this discussed before.

[Edited 2014-06-09 15:49:10]

[Edited 2014-06-09 15:53:10]
 
awthompson
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing (Video)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:48 pm

Video poster states aircraft is D-AIHT, but it looks more like D-AIHR to me, perhaps someone can confirm?
 
mwhcvt
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing (Video)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:52 pm

This has been posted around the time of the actual landing as I remember seeing it on here, my suspicion is that it's more an optical illusion on the body flex front, the flex in the wings and the horizontal stab making it look like the body is flexing
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
awthompson
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:02 pm

mwhcvt

I first thought about an optical illusion possibility before posting, however if you freeze the video at the right point and study the upper fuselage, you will see that the body is clearly curved for a split second.

Large ships made of steel flex on rough seas. Why wouldn't the body of such a slender aircraft flex on such a hard landing. I think there would be a bigger issue if a landing like this did not produce some body flex.
 
AR385
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:19 pm

I really don´t see much flex, rather a dangerous windshear almost upon touchdown. I believe a go around was warranted (cue the accusations of monday quarterbacking) but structural damage I don´t see.
 
Natflyer
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:10 am

Long bodied aircraft do flex, the stretched DC-8 was all over the place in turbulence.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:14 am

Why does it seem that all the crazy crosswind videos are from NRT? Are the runways not oriented in the optimal direction?
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spacecadet
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Why does it seem that all the crazy crosswind videos are from NRT? Are the runways not oriented in the optimal direction?

They *are* oriented in the optimal direction. Runways are oriented to maximize service time, taking into account the aircraft that will actually use them. NRT's runways are rarely out of service despite both being oriented in the same direction. It would have helped if the airport could have been built originally with crossing runways, which would have allowed for two sets of runways better oriented for different wind conditions, but if you had to pick one direction to orient one set of runways, NRT is optimal for its location.

This isn't unusual in Japan. Many busy airports in Japan operate with even a single runway (FUK, for example). It's different from the rest of the world, because land is at such a premium there. Japan's a small country with 127 million people and basically all of its usable land is in use either for residences or agriculture.

As for why there are so many crosswind videos from NRT, partly it's because there are a lot of crosswind landings but also partly because there are a few particular guys - this videographer being one of them - who spend a lot of time taking videos from this specific spot. It's an airport with several really good viewing spots, including viewing decks specifically set up for photographers/videographers (with holes for camera lenses in the fencing). This wasn't shot from one of those, but that's one reason why you see a lot of videos from NRT.
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MaxiAir
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 3):

Video poster states aircraft is D-AIHT, but it looks more like D-AIHR to me, perhaps someone can confirm?


it was HR and it was out of service for weeks after this incident!
http://avherald.com/h?article=471e70e9&opt=0
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
They *are* oriented in the optimal direction.

I do not agree.

NRT is well known for significant windshear, I would guess they would have one of the highest rates of landing incidents. I know where I work we have had hard landings with the tristar, jumbo, 777, and airbus there. That is the runway where Fedex broke a wing on landing, consistently see reports of events from that airport. Other recent events I recall would be the ANA 767-300 that creased a fuselage on landing, Korean 777 tailstrike.

I would not call the runway orientation optimal for the wind conditions, more likely what they could get away with with the local farmers. There is still a number of farmers that basically dictate what NRT can do.
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AirlineCritic
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:01 am

Quoting MaxiAir (Reply 11):
it was HR and it was out of service for weeks after this incident!
http://avherald.com/h?article=471e70e9&opt=0

Thank you for the link. Indeed, from the link:

Quote:
the touch down produced a vertical acceleration of 2.8G rendering the touch down the second hardest landing of an A346 ever following the 3.09G landing of Iberia in Quito

Wow. The video did not look so bad to my untrained eyes, but 2.8G!
 
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EK413
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:47 am

Wow talk about challenging landings.
Why are all the crosswind landings from NRT? Is this due to the location of the airport?

EK413
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Ty134A
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:43 am

fully load a 763 in the fwd compartment and fill her up with higher loads to the rear in the aft and you will get a hanging aft fuselage of about 5+cm. not good for the stucture but great for the trim....
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:44 am

There isn't much of a body flex here other than an optical illusion...Furthermore, so called "Body Flexes" Like wing flexes have to be 150% over the safety limit, and well if you refer to the Boeing 777 wing flex website, its a clear depiction of how much an aircraft wing, and even body can flex
 
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:05 am

The SAA cabin crew complain about how much the back of the A340-600 moves during flight. Even to the point that some refused to work due to the motion sickness to caused.
 
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RWA380
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:25 am

Quoting natflyer (Reply 8):
Long bodied aircraft do flex, the stretched DC-8 was all over the place in turbulence

I loved flying UAs real long 70 series DC-8s, I've ridden near the rear, and right up front, both ends offer an extra level of ride that the middle doesn't. We've even flown the DC-8s to Hawaii from PDX a few times, UA, HA & EZ, I like looking out the window along the long wings and see those two engines forcing their way forward of the wing, it's just so cool to me.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
It's an airport with several really good viewing spots, including viewing decks specifically set up for photographers/videographers (with holes for camera lenses in the fencing).

IMHO, Airports across the world should provide some space, in the terminal area, where passengers waiting for flights, or people waiting for arriving guests could sit & wait with unobstructed views of the apron, runway and taxiways. It's way more than just our A netters who enjoy watching planes take off and land.

When we had road side parking lots just the other side of the fence from the North runway here at PDX, they used to be pretty full and even had a food truck set up for snacks.

PDX used to have an observation deck, right between what is now C & D, upstairs on top of the airport roof, a glassed in area where one could sit and watch airplanes.

Sorry to get off track, the video was a good watch, I'd hate to have been a passenger on that aircraft. I stop framed the short video and it is obvious the fuselage has some flexing, but those boggies took the brunt of that hard landing. Good thing planes are made to flex as needed while going 500mph at 35,000 feet.
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oly720man
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:13 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 14):
Why are all the crosswind landings from NRT? Is this due to the location of the airport?

Runways are laid out for the prevailing winds.

There are 2 parallel runways and one on a diagonal that can't be used.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © GuoYC



On one of the parallel runways there is a landowner who won't move


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TriplET



And there are other obstructions on the diagonal runway due to someone else who won't move.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jan Mogren AeroPresentation




The diagonal runway would be better suited for the present crosswind landings, but it's not a runway.
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:17 pm

While the A346 looked lovely, I couldn't help but notice the long queue for takeoff...was it rush hour or was it more of a delay due to weather conditions?

Quoting MaxiAir (Reply 8):
it was HR and it was out of service for weeks after this incident!

Serious questtion: what happens to the pilot when something like that happens?
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MaxiAir
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 17):
Serious questtion: what happens to the pilot when something like that happens?

Here with us in Germany? I don't think much. Lufthansa has a great policy avoiding presure on the crew. The crews always do the best the can, but never try till they fail. (I mean they would divert after some failed attemps (although creating additional costs), unlike pilots with other airlines / in other countries (see crash of polnish president))

So I would guess, they have a talk with some engineers, some higher officials and the chief captain and the chief fleet captain, about what went wrong, what they can improve for the next time or what the should include in their training programm. Something like this and some constructive critics and this was propably everything about that.
I'm quite sure, they are back flying again since weeks!
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dmsolovyev
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:16 pm

Well, NRT is known for it's strong crosswinds.

Here is a crazy video of an Aeroflot A330 landing in Narita just after the dust storm http://youtu.be/HEtL0XIkWJM Probably the scariest landing video I've ever seen, or should I say, ever heard  Wow!

[Edited 2014-06-10 06:25:14]
 
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lugie
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:19 pm

what I also found interesting about the video is how you can see (what seems to be) the actual exhaust from the engines at 0:43 - 0:47.
It is the first time I observed this with (western) airplanes that are still in scheduled service besides the MD-80 family.

Do you think this is because the pilot had to power them up unnormally?
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:27 pm

I have had some crosswind landings at NRT that would reset your fillings. The problem with land acquisition prevents the completion of a proper crosswind runway.

Remember Japan is a very small country. Land is very precious and passes from generation to generation. When NRT was being built the country used eminent domain to take the land from some of the families and while they were paid generously it was not like they could go a few miles away and buy more land. In parts of Japan (downtown Tokyo) land has been sold by the square inch. It became a political third rail to talk about expanding NRT and politicians steered clear of the issue. For over 20 years NRT had only a single runway.

Over the years landowners tried various methods to thwart the airport--they built obstruction towers and on the day NRT opened they invaded the control tower and smashed all of the new equipment with sledgehammers. As a result, external security at NRT has always been very tight with numerous layers of electrified fences, guard towers and razor wire. Every year on the anniverary of the opening there would be massive demonstrations although these have stopped in recent years. Many of the "holders out" have died and gradually the land has reverted. As soon as that happens they quickly build another little part of the runway and eventually will have it complete.

Yet another reason why HND has become so popular.
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william
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:46 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P9OAng32F0

Why Pilots get paid the big bucks.
 
tockeyhockey
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:04 pm

i think this is what happens when you don't have enough body flex!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExwU6FScZ94
 
catiii
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting william (Reply 22):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P9OAng32F0

Why Pilots get paid the big bucks.

Not sure how that's relevant to the specific incident at hand, but what kind of "big bucks" do you think that Dash-8 pilot is making?
 
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william
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
Not sure how that's relevant to the specific incident at hand, but what kind of "big bucks" do you think that Dash-8 pilot is making?

Was referring to the mainline metal, but you are correct in regards to the regionals. Its all about skill, you are not doing an autoland in those conditions.
 
MonsieurX
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
Not sure how that's relevant to the specific incident at hand, but what kind of "big bucks" do you think that Dash-8 pilot is making?

According to a couple of cursory internet searches, the Captain could be making anywhere from £60,000 - £75,000 p/a base. FO about £30,000 - £45,000. Both of those would fall into the above-average to healthily-above-average categories in the UK.

X
 
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flylku
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:37 pm

The fuselage can flex. Sitting in the first row of coach on a 753 the I heard the flight attendant (sitting facing me) point out the fuselage flex to his colleague as we passed throughout only moderate turbulence over the Rockies. I suggested that it would be a good idea to not point this out to the average traveler.

I also saw this looking forward form seat 62 on an ANA 744 during climb out from NRT as we passed through again only moderate turbulence.

I am sure many of you have similar stories.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:46 pm

I remember on the stretch DC-8's if you were sitting aft and the front hit turbulence you could see it ripple down the aisle.
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egph
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:26 pm

Yeah I see definite flexing of the front part of the fuselage. However stop looking for tiny bits of flex on the fuselage and just behold the wing flex!!! That's what's awesome about the video!   
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 9):
That is the runway where Fedex broke a wing on landing, consistently see reports of events from that airport. Other recent events I recall would be the ANA 767-300 that creased a fuselage on landing, Korean 777 tailstrike.

Yup, add the Korean Air pod strike to the list.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/vkv29.jpg

Or how about this Thai A380:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQW6ThGILq4
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Max Q
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):

Why Pilots get paid the big bucks.

Not sure how that's relevant to the specific incident at hand

It's very relevant, and that is one of the many reasons Pilots deserve every penny they get. Your life is in their hands.

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
but what kind of "big bucks" do you think that Dash-8 pilot is making?

Not nearly enough !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
MaverickM11
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 7):
As for why there are so many crosswind videos from NRT, partly it's because there are a lot of crosswind landings but also partly because there are a few particular guys - this videographer being one of them

Are cross winds just stronger and more frequent? Otherwise you'd expect to see just as many videos from LHR, HKG, ATL, LAX, SEA, CDG, and dozens of others...
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sandyb123
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:48 pm

I remember sitting right at the very back of the 773ER and watching the take off at SIN along the corridor. I could swear I could see the corridor flexing as we rolled down the runway!

The other time I noticed similar was speed wobble at the very back of also the 773ER. whilst stretching my legs in the aft galley there was a noticeable occilation, so much so water in cups was spilling. The crew assured me it was normal and there is infact a system that trims out the rudder to reduce the effect of speed wobble in the 773!

Sandyb123
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awthompson
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting natflyer (Reply 5):
Long bodied aircraft do flex, the stretched DC-8 was all over the place in turbulence.

And the DC-8 was stiffer than an A346, both wings and body.

Quoting Lofty (Reply 14):
The SAA cabin crew complain about how much the back of the A340-600 moves during flight. Even to the point that some refused to work due to the motion sickness to caused.

That's more to do with the plane yawing or pivoting about its centre of mass which is accentuated at front and rear, than body flex.
 
awthompson
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Tue Jun 10, 2014 11:19 pm

Its no optical illusion. On freeze frame at the right point, especially on the slow motion edit at the start, body flex is very easy to see. This is the only video I have seen that clearly shows it, other than the DC-9 video already linked by tockeyhockey above which resulted in that plane breaking up.
 
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EK413
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 16):

Thanks for sharing these images. I've flown into NRT twice, & on both occasions the 1st thing I noticed was the unusual taxi back to the terminal. A lot of manoeuvring around obstacles to say the least.

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
727LOVER
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 16):
landowner who won't move
Quoting oly720man (Reply 16):
someone else who won't move.

Why don't they MAKE him move? Seriously, does their have to be a big crash with massive loss of life first?


Hmmmm....  ...what caused that FX crash a few years back?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
rwessel
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 37):
Why don't they MAKE him move? Seriously, does their have to be a big crash with massive loss of life first?

Japan's eminent domain laws are very weak. It's very difficult to force someone to sell their property.
 
Max Q
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 33):
reduce the effect of speed wobble

I've been a professional Pilot for thirty three years, never heard of 'speed wobble'
Care to explain what that is ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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CCA
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:59 am

Narita just has a very active spotters group who obviously follow up religiously with videos during strong winds and poor weather, there are a lot more days of average winds where nothing happens.

Secondly the farmers are pissed as the politicians and whomever else ripped a whole bunch of them off buy buying the land before the government announced they would be purchasing the land to build the airport! Those politicians and whomever else made a nice profit by selling the land to the government shortly after buying the land at a reduced price.

So the remaining farmers refused to sell in protest to support their fellow mates who got shafted.

So it was explained to me by ground staff in Narita.
Enthusiast
 
catiii
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 39):
I've been a professional Pilot for thirty three years, never heard of 'speed wobble'
Care to explain what that is ?

Maybe he's confusing it with a dutch roll? I've only ever heard of a speed wobble in relation to motorcycles.
 
Viscount724
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RE: A346 Body Flex On Hard Landing! (Video)

Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting awthompson (Reply 34):
Quoting natflyer (Reply 5):
Long bodied aircraft do flex, the stretched DC-8 was all over the place in turbulence.

And the DC-8 was stiffer than an A346, both wings and body.

I flew on dozens of DC-8s, regular and 60-series, and never noticed much flex in turbulence. And, as mentioned, the DC-8's wings always seemed much stiffer than the 707's. I expect many 707 passengers seated in front of the wing got concerned with the way the engines bounced around independently of the wings in turbulence. This was much less noticeable on DC-8s.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos