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jetlanta
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 125):
DL demanded that AS sever every existing international codeshare or partnership agreement with all carriers except AA and be DL's sole international feed provider. For a carrier whose Mileage Plan is popular largely due to the ability to earn and burn with so many diverse partners, that was a completely unrealistic request. Saying AS "could not and would not" provide feed is pretty disingenuous. The partnership was a mutually beneficial one until DL over-reached.

So what you are saying is that AS had a choice. They chose to keep their wide variety of codeshare partners over an exclusive deal with a carrier they knew was planning on building a SEA gateway. They also chose to sign a more comprehensive deal with AA.

Let me ask you this. Do you think AS management team is competent enough to understand potential consequences of those decisions?

I think they are. But that doesn't mean they made the right choices. Im sure that the captive SEA customers love the Mileage Plan options, but was it really unrealistic for Delta to think that AS might chose monogamy over Delta developing a 150+ flight a day hub at SEA? I mean, the reality is that AS had to know that Delta COULD grow organically.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 130):
What get's some of us here going is that DL signed a far-reaching codeshare deal with AS that locked AS into providing feed to DL flights in SEA - then turned around and went all "Seattle's World Airline" on them. Yes, I'm making it sound dramatic a bit, but in fairness, that's what ruffles some people's feathers here.

And then AS went and signed the same deal with AA. That ruffled some feathers on the other side. Thats the way it is.

[Edited 2014-06-12 20:39:10]
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):
JNU/ANC/FAI/OGG are really your only choices. PSP/TUS/BZN/SFO/LAS/GEG/YYC/YVR.....they can all connect to Asia. (and I am sure all have at least one person living in those places who wants to go to Asia.)

We all know that Delta isn't a poorly run airline. If BZN or TUS were more than once weekly I would be more inclined to see your point. How about PVR and SJD? While I don't think they've added the volume of flights they've added to SEA solely because they are trying to build an Asian gateway, I can at least get there with SFO , YVR, YYC and LAS. Once weekly flights to places like JAC, BZN, TUS, PVR and SJD don't lend to the idea that this is just an Asian gateway.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):
Well, According to Delta they did.

AS To Drop All But DL Intl. SEA Codeshares? (by NW Jun 19 2013 in Civil Aviation)

here, how about a thread on it.

Cause everything you read here is so credible. Here we have multiple people on this thread saying that this would be illegal, yet a year ago there was a thread all about how DL made just such an announcement. Crazy, nobody was crying illegal back then. Still, there were a lot of people expressing doubt about the credibility of the post you're referencing and nobody actually substantiated anything. I'll give you credit though, you did try to defend the OP's claim in that thread, but with nothing more than your assurance that RA actually said it.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 147):
No, What i am saying is your management made a mistake......They and shareholders will have to deal with that. I hope all your frontline employees have no issues.

I guess whether it was a mistake or not remains to be seen. Perhaps DL made the mistake, assuming AS would roll over and let them take what they wanted. We'll see. DL certainly has more money to piss away then AS does, but we'll see how long they want to do that. Maybe this SEA strategy will work for them, maybe it won't - only time will tell.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 150):
Let me ask you this. Do you think AS management team is competent enough to understand potential consequences of those decisions?

Let me ask YOU this. Do you think the DL management team is competent enough to understand the potential consequences of their decision to expend so many resources on a bet that's anything but a sure thing? Sure, Delta can blow a lot more money than Alaska but is that the best use of their resources? I guess we'll see.
 
delimit
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 152):
Do you think the DL management team is competent enough to understand the potential consequences of their decision to expend so many resources on a bet that's anything but a sure thing?

Have you perhaps missed Delta's performance under the current management team?
 
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mayor
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 145):
Quoting mayor (Reply 141):Is it possible that pax in those cities want to go to Asia? Could they not connect thru SEA?
Nice try. Come again.

Again, another honest question. Could you be an adult about it and answer it, please. Thank you.   
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:16 am

I'd like to think that regardless of corporate strategies that the frontline employees at the airports between DL and AS aren't as vile as some of the poster on this forum are toward each other.

When I worked out at the airport we all got along. It didn't matter who provided your paycheck.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 144):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 125):
DL demanded that AS sever every existing international codeshare or partnership agreement with all carriers except AA and be DL's sole international feed provider.

And your proof is?

See below; this also coincides with discussions with the executives about this very same issue.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 145):
AS management has put it in black and white in communication to their employees

  

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 150):
So what you are saying is that AS had a choice.

One forced on them by DL. It's like saying the guy getting mugged in an alley has a choice; give up his money, or not, and hope he doesn't get killed. Either way the mugger is still a thug.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
jetlanta
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:52 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 152):
Let me ask YOU this. Do you think the DL management team is competent enough to understand the potential consequences of their decision to expend so many resources on a bet that's anything but a sure thing? Sure, Delta can blow a lot more money than Alaska but is that the best use of their resources? I guess we'll see.

Of course they are. But i'm not on here acting aggrieved.

In fact, Ive said over and over, AS is a very well-managed airline. I have a ton of respect for the airline, its history and its people. I'd have preferred an exclusive partnership where AS continued to own SEA and Delta operated primarily international services. But, as has been documented, AS was pretty happy filling its planes with its own passengers and those of several other airlines who were flying the same markets that Delta was in or planning. There weren't enough seats for Delta to build its NRT-replacement operation. Delta asked for more seats and an exclusive relationship. AS said no. AS owns that decision.

What I don't understand is why are you all crying about it? What on Earth did you expect when AS said no? Did you think that Delta would say "oh well, maybe we should grow SJC."? I can assure you that AS management didn't have their heads in the sand. They made their decision knowing full well that it could mean organic growth for Delta at SEA. So they must be a hell of a lot more confident than most you guys.
 
jetlanta
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
One forced on them by DL. It's like saying the guy getting mugged in an alley has a choice; give up his money, or not, and hope he doesn't get killed. Either way the mugger is still a thug.

Yes, because this perfectly legal business scenario was exactly like a mugging. Good grief. Its a free market. Anyone with some foresight could have seen that some carrier would build a SEA gateway at some point. AS has had decades to figure out either how to do it themselves, how to influence it, how to take advantage of it, and how to mitigate its risk.
 
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:03 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 157):
There weren't enough seats for Delta to build its NRT-replacement operation. Delta asked for more seats

And if that were the extent of it, there wouldn't be a problem.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 157):
and an exclusive relationship.

This was the issue, and as was previously mentioned, doing so would have seriously diluted the AS Mileage Plan and upset its loyal customer base.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 157):
AS said no

I see; once again it's really all Alaska's fault for not giving in to DL's demands in the first place. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 158):
Yes, because this perfectly legal business scenario was exactly like a mugging.

Please tell me how it wasn't.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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mayor
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:15 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
See below; this also coincides with discussions with the executives about this very same issue.

I guess we'll all have to take your word for it, because if we can't see it, it's hardly any kind of proof, now, is it?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
etops1
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:24 am

What AS needs to do is enter a strong codeshare with AA and join oneworld.

[Edited 2014-06-12 21:24:59]
 
jetlanta
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:27 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 159):
This was the issue, and as was previously mentioned, doing so would have seriously diluted the AS Mileage Plan and upset its loyal customer base.

So I assume that Delta having 150+ daily departures at SEA upsets no one?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 159):
I see; once again it's really all Alaska's fault for not giving in to DL's demands in the first place. Tell me, what color is the sky in your world?

In my world I don't assign fault to companies making business decisions in their own best interest. This isn't the playground at elementary school. Delta needed to accomplish a business objective. They gave a COMPETITOR the opportunity to cooperate in a way that might be mutually beneficial. The COMPETITOR decided that the opportunity wasn't in its own best interests. So Delta moved forward with an alternate plan.

It is no ones "fault". It isn't "fair". Its the free market.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 161):

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
See below; this also coincides with discussions with the executives about this very same issue.

I guess we'll all have to take your word for it

And that of others who have provided the same info. Get used to disappointment.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 163):

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 159):
This was the issue, and as was previously mentioned, doing so would have seriously diluted the AS Mileage Plan and upset its loyal customer base.

So I assume that Delta having 150+ daily departures at SEA upsets no one?

Had the sole issue been "We need more feed" AS would have obliged, eliminating any need for DL to start 150+ departures at SEA on top of the already large AS/QX operation.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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DL747400
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:01 am

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 119):
DL is the aggressor and anyone with a brain knows this. DL fanboys will deny it 'til the cows come home but it's true. Employees unofficial war cry is not 'I am Alaska'...it's 'Fuc* Delta'...and honey it's gonna hurt.

Classy. Your employer should be so very proud. I bet they've even put you in one of their TV commercials.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 154):
Again, another honest question. Could you be an adult about it and answer it, please. Thank you.

Do I think people in those cities ever go to Asia? Of course. Do I think Delta added service from those cities to Seattle because to feed their Asia flights? No

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 163):
In my world I don't assign fault to companies making business decisions in their own best interest

The whole "Keep Delta My Delta" campaign was an effort to keep US Airways away from Delta. While US Airways was sniffing around the Delta people had plenty of not so flattering things to say about US Airways. Yet it was "just a business decision" that US Airways management was making.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 166):
The whole "Keep Delta My Delta" campaign was an effort to keep US Airways away from Delta. While US Airways was sniffing around the Delta people had plenty of not so flattering things to say about US Airways.

So Delta has made a hostile take over attempt of a bankrupt carrier, that would be a complete balance sheet disaster and would create large amounts (I think the number was like 75% of the networks) of overlap?


So yeah....so totally comparable.  
Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 151):
If BZN or TUS were more than once weekly I would be more inclined to see your point.

they still add connections.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 151):
How about PVR and SJD?

okay forgot about them. so JNU, PVR, ANC, FAI, OGG, HNL.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 151):
that this is just an Asian gateway.

It is and it isn't. To build a solid hub in Seattle (or any cities) you have to build on the local market, the regional market and fit it into your network.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 151):
I'll give you credit though, you did try to defend the OP's claim in that thread, but with nothing more than your assurance that RA actually said it.

because he did. Thats all the matters. I'm not the SEC..... All I know is Delta told its people AS was going nothing but Delta and American. (and I believe latter said from SEA only, thus not cutting the AF/KL code for example)
then it didn't happen and things started going down hill.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 151):
I guess whether it was a mistake or not remains to be seen.

if AS management wants out of its codeshare contract right now and can't....then yes. It is a huge screw up.

What I am saying is if they don't have a way out with Delta growing like it is in two major AS markets then your management sucks. Thats my point.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 151):
Perhaps DL made the mistake, assuming AS would roll over and let them take what they wanted.

and if Delta thought that it would be a mistake. They don't think that.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:49 am

Well this has clearly turned into YET another AS management/etc vs DL mechanic/cargo agent/gate agent thread

Why do we bother having these anymore???
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:55 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 167):
All I know is Delta told its people AS was going nothing but Delta and American. (and I believe latter said from SEA only, thus not cutting the AF/KL code for example)
then it didn't happen

DL assumed AS would go along with their demands and prematurely announced that to their employees. There was even a thread about this on a.net where DL employees were discussing it and AS employees were (correctly) scratching their collective heads, wondering what the heck they were talking about.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 167):
if AS management wants out of its codeshare contract right now and can't....then yes. It is a huge screw up.

That's just the thing; AS management has indicated they have no interest in getting out of it. Despite DL's behavior, there are still some benefits AS realizes from the arrangement.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
deltal1011man
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 169):

That's just the thing; AS management has indicated they have no interest in getting out of it. Despite DL's behavior, there are still some benefits AS realizes from the arrangement.

which is the same thing Delta is saying. Other posters have acted as if AS is stuck in the codeshare and I am saying that if they were then someone is stupid.

but I don't believe AS's management is that stupid. I believe they are one of the best in the world at running an airline........if not THE best.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 170):
which is the same thing Delta is saying. Other posters have acted as if AS is stuck in the codeshare and I am saying that if they were then someone is stupid.

but I don't believe AS's management is that stupid. I believe they are one of the best in the world at running an airline........if not THE best.

I haven't once said that AS is stuck in this agreement. There is definitely a benefit in it for Alaska. In fact, probably more for Alaska than DL. I would imagine that DL would be the party that would be more interested in getting out of the agreement if they could find a way, but that agreement that they signed has also bound their hands.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 167):
So Delta has made a hostile take over attempt of a bankrupt carrier, that would be a complete balance sheet disaster and would create large amounts (I think the number was like 75% of the networks) of overlap?

I wasn't even responding to anything you said but since you want clarification. My response was to the post that said "In my world I don't assign fault to companies making business decisions in their own best interest". Regardless of what you think of that decision, it was a business decision that US Airways was making that they felt was in their own best interests. The DL employees fought back tooth and nail and had plenty to say about US Airways.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 167):
they still add connections.

If you're suggesting that DL added Saturday only service SEA-BZN and SEA-TUS because they are trying to capture Asia traffic then I don't know what to say. Even Delta isn't trying to pretend their trying to capture Asia traffic from those places.
http://news.delta.com/2014-05-27-Del...Popular-Ski-and-Beach-Destinations
 
jetlanta
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 166):
Do I think people in those cities ever go to Asia? Of course. Do I think Delta added service from those cities to Seattle because to feed their Asia flights? No
Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 171):
If you're suggesting that DL added Saturday only service SEA-BZN and SEA-TUS because they are trying to capture Asia traffic then I don't know what to say. Even Delta isn't trying to pretend their trying to capture Asia traffic from those places.

But here is the thing. There was "Build a Gateway in Cooperation with Alaska Strategy". In order to do that, Delta needed certain assurances from AS, including adequate and affordable feed. For example, there are only so many AS flights from LAS that will efficiently feed DL's PEK service. And only one ideal connecting flight. But AS was putting nearly 50 PDEW onto Hainan's PEK flight. That not only supplied a Delta competitor, it also took connecting inventory away from Delta. For its strategy to work for Delta, it needed as many seats as possible from AS on key flights, it needed them at an affordable pro-rate, and it needed AS not to sell to the competition.

That was the "Build a Gateway in Cooperations with Alaska Strategy".

But once it became clear that Alaska wasn't going to help to the degree that Delta needed, another strategy was needed. We'll call this "Build an Organic Hub at SEA".

The reason you have to go all the way to "Build an Organic Hub at SEA" is pretty simple. Asia connecting traffic alone won't fill enough seats on the feeder flights to make the their economics viable. This is particularly true because the Delta's intentional operations at SEA are spread out across all hours of the day.

Because AS has such a strong hold on local traffic, Delta needs to do two things:

1) Build a connecting network that allows it to carry new and existing traffic via SEA. This means destinations in Alaska, Hawaii and Canada where Delta can connect people from across its network. This helps fill the seats that Asia and local traffic don't. While some of that is new growth capacity, some is not. For example, as Delta has added SEA-ANC capacity, it has shrunk MSP-ANC capacity. OGG is another good example. Delta has wanted to add back SLC-OGG for a while now, but it requires a domestic ETOPS 767. None are available, but SEA-OGG now picks up that job.

2) No hub can be successful without success in the local O&D market. In order to build more of a local presence, Delta has to add capacity in pure local markets designed for local passengers. This is particularly true on the corporate level. Think about this. If Delta can meet Microsoft's international needs, but not its domestic needs, then Microsoft has less incentive to sign any sort of Corporate Sales Agreement that obligates it to fly Delta internationally. However, if it can provide a comprehensive network, it has more leverage to drive a deal that actually moves share.

Many of the actions you are seeing as part of "Build an Organic Hub at SEA" are a result of necessity. Going halfway is not going to be successful. Delta went halfway at PDX. The people running the show now aren't interested in "kind of" trying.

I get why it feels like AS is under attack. It sure looks like it. And I get why AS folks would feel threatened. The point I have been trying to make is that AS management was faced with some choices along the way. Maybe they weren't good choices, but at least they had some. In the end, they chose not to enter into an exclusive agreement with Delta. If they are any good at their jobs at all (and they are), they had to anticipate that Delta would at least have to consider an all-out hub at SEA. Assuming they did know that, they obviously felt up to the challenge. So game on.

By the way, there is still a ton of connecting traffic moving between the two carriers. Scuttling the partnership completely incentivizes Delta to invest in SEA even more. That is why I think there is a chance that this relationship never fully goes away. Delta doesn't want to fly from every small market to SEA and AS doesn't want them to either.

[Edited 2014-06-13 07:54:31]

[Edited 2014-06-13 07:56:52]
 
Prost
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:42 pm

For the posters who suggest that AS join Oneworld and forge closer ties with AA, I'm not certain that would be in the best interest for AS customers. You've then shut out a lot of codesharing partners, and made Alaska the 'weak sister' in the US to American. I can see how American may seem like a good choice (especially for they 'they aren't Delta crowd'), but American is markedly larger than DL and UA, and if folks think DL is acting overbearing, I can't imagine the closer ties between AA/AS would ensure smooth sailing.
 
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mayor
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
DL buying AS will be good for no-one but Richard Anderson's own ego and pocket book.It will be bad for AS's employees; bad for AS's customers and bad for AS's communities.Anyone who doesn't think DL will begin slashing AS's route network the day after the merger is finalized is in total denial. It will mean less choices; less non-stop flights and higher fares for SEA and AS's other communities.

And here, my friends, is the post that veered off into the "DL buying AS" arguments. There is nothing in the OP's original post that indicates that this is what is happening.   




For those folks on here that feel that this is all dirty business practices, consider this. DL and EA went for years, stealing each others pax. It wasn't dirty, just business. The same can be said of AA stealing other carriers pax (most any other carrier). AA, however, carried it to a higher level, overbooking DL's flights via a travel agency. This was the AA of Bob Crandall who always seems to be praised for being a savvy businessman, even after he tried to put BN out of business.



It's happened for years and years and will probably happen for many more years. Welcome to the world of competition.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
777STL
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 156):
One forced on them by DL. It's like saying the guy getting mugged in an alley has a choice; give up his money, or not, and hope he doesn't get killed. Either way the mugger is still a thug.

I'm not a big fan of Delta, but you're just being ridiculous here. This is capitalism in a free market at it's finest. It's not illegal and it's certainly not on the level of armed robbery. If AS can't compete, too bad.

Quoting etops1 (Reply 162):
What AS needs to do is enter a strong codeshare with AA and join oneworld.

The new AA doesn't need AS, that seems like a mostly one way relationship benefitting AS. Plus, I suspect that since AS has been in bed with everyone, no one truly trusts them.

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 119):
DL is the aggressor and anyone with a brain knows this. DL fanboys will deny it 'til the cows come home but it's true. Employees unofficial war cry is not 'I am Alaska'...it's 'Fuc* Delta'...and honey it's gonna hurt.

The more likely scenario is DL is going to slowly crush your airline in it's own hometown until they launch a hostile bid for the airline which you'll ultimately have to accept because you'll be unable to beat them or match their asset expenditure. You're certainly right, it's going to hurt....a lot - for you guys.

So yes, of course they're the aggressor.
PHX based
 
hiflyeras
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 175):
The more likely scenario is DL is going to slowly crush your airline in it's own hometown until they launch a hostile bid for the airline which you'll ultimately have to accept because you'll be unable to beat them or match their asset expenditure. You're certainly right, it's going to hurt....a lot - for you guys.

So yes, of course they're the aggressor.

Were you a writer on Star Trek? Sounds like a Borg plot-line..."You will be assimilated". FYI the Borg (just like DL) are the bad guys. And the bad guy usually loses.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:21 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 175):
I'm not a big fan of Delta, but you're just being ridiculous here. This is capitalism in a free market at it's finest. It's not illegal and it's certainly not on the level of armed robbery. If AS can't compete, too bad.

The post you're referencing wasn't about capitalism or free markets, or even competition. It was about the way in which Delta tried to force Alaska into an exclusive partnership. One that would have benefited Delta, not Alaska. And yes, when you're the thousand pound behemoth with seemingly unlimited resources going up against a much smaller company, your chances of winning are better.



Quoting 777stl (Reply 175):
The new AA doesn't need AS, that seems like a mostly one way relationship benefitting AS. Plus, I suspect that since AS has been in bed with everyone, no one truly trusts them.

Maybe you should tell that to AA. So far they seem to be of the mind that closer ties can benefit their airline as well.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 175):
The more likely scenario is DL is going to slowly crush your airline in it's own hometown until they launch a hostile bid for the airline which you'll ultimately have to accept because you'll be unable to beat them or match their asset expenditure. You're certainly right, it's going to hurt....a lot - for you guys.

People here are all over the board. There are those in the David vs. Goliath camp, betting on AS sending DL back to ATL where they came from. There are those in the everyone can co-exist and thrive camp. Then there are those in your camp, with the idea that Delta is going to slaughter Alaska and pick up the left overs that they want. The reality is, nobody really knows whats going to happen - all we have are a bunch of opinions. Time will tell. One thing I know for sure, less competition isn't good for anyone except the remaining airlines. If Delta were able to squash Alaska (which I, personally, don't see happening) then the landscape for consumers becomes more and more bleak. Less competition means less choice, higher fares. Bad news for everyone.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 177):
If Delta were able to squash Alaska (which I, personally, don't see happening) then the landscape for consumers becomes more and more bleak. Less competition means less choice, higher fares. Bad news for everyone.

This kind of thing became a much greater possibility when these mega-mergers were allowed.
 
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mayor
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 177):
People here are all over the board. There are those in the David vs. Goliath camp, betting on AS sending DL back to ATL where they came from. There are those in the everyone can co-exist and thrive camp. Then there are those in your camp, with the idea that Delta is going to slaughter Alaska and pick up the left overs that they want. The reality is, nobody really knows whats going to happen - all we have are a bunch of opinions. Time will tell. One thing I know for sure, less competition isn't good for anyone except the remaining airlines. If Delta were able to squash Alaska (which I, personally, don't see happening) then the landscape for consumers becomes more and more bleak. Less competition means less choice, higher fares. Bad news for everyone.

Seems to me that if competition is a good thing (which it is), AS wouldn't mind if DL was coming in to SEA, with more competition. So, is competition a good or bad thing?

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 176):
FYI the Borg (just like DL) are the bad guys. And the bad guy usually loses.

Only on Star Trek.  

[Edited 2014-06-13 14:08:02]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 179):
Seems to me that if competition is a good thing (which it is), AS wouldn't mind if DL was coming in to SEA, with more competition. So, is competition a good or bad thing?

Competition is good for consumers and bad for business. Both DL and AS will make less money sharing SEA than either would if they owned the market. OTH SEA based passengers are benefiting greatly with double mile promotions, mqm promotions, and all sorts of new service both domestic and international.
 
CV880
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 177):
Maybe you should tell that to AA. So far they seem to be of the mind that closer ties can benefit their airline as well.

Don't cry when AA eradicates AS just like they did to Reno Air, Air Cal & TWA.
 
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mayor
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 180):
Competition is good for consumers and bad for business. Both DL and AS will make less money sharing SEA than either would if they owned the market. OTH SEA based passengers are benefiting greatly with double mile promotions, mqm promotions, and all sorts of new service both domestic and international.

Competition is good for business in one way..........keeps you on your toes. DL is probably a better airline for having AirTran in ATL than no one at all. Maybe AS needs someone to give them a push, now and then.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
toobz
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:01 pm

DL is going after SEA. If that means trying to run over AS so be it. All is fair in the name of profit and business. Do you guys really think Mcdonalds gives one flying f$&k about Burger Kings feelings lol. It's business folks. If AS can't handle the heat they can always have PDX :-P
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 182):
Competition is good for business in one way..........keeps you on your toes. DL is probably a better airline for having AirTran in ATL than no one at all. Maybe AS needs someone to give them a push, now and then.

AS has won the JD Powers award for seven years in a row without DL breathing down their neck, in addition to a variety of other awards and recognitions. They are a very well managed, high performance airline with an outstanding reputation for excellent customer service. If this "push" from Delta is going to make AS better (and I have no doubt that it will), then AS is going to be a hard airline to beat in the years ahead.
 
peanuts
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 172):
AS management was faced with some choices along the way

  

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 172):
In the end, they chose not to enter into an exclusive agreement with Delta

  

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 172):
they obviously felt up to the challenge. So game on.

  

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 172):
Scuttling the partnership completely incentivizes Delta to invest in SEA even more.

  

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 177):
Maybe you should tell that to AA. So far they seem to be of the mind that closer ties can benefit their airline as well.

Really? Who told you that?
Please also explain how this partnership (AS/AA) would actually benefit AS like a partnership with DL somehow could not. We now know that a partnership with just DL wasn't going to cut it for AS. So why would AS be running towards AA?

A partnership between AS/AA in order to fight DL at SEA would sound to me like an admittance of the biggest epic blunder in AS history. (namely allowing DL to invade SEA without keeping a stake in DL's success there).
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:36 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 185):
Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 177):
Maybe you should tell that to AA. So far they seem to be of the mind that closer ties can benefit their airline as well.

Really? Who told you that?

The executives at AA who have met with AS saying just that.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
peanuts
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:43 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 186):
The executives at AA who have met with AS saying just that.

So? Meetings schmeetings. Everyone talks with everybody. All-the-time.

The fact some of you seem so elated about that prospect (AS/AA) is just absolutely banal.

So in the end let's say...AS needs AA, AA needs AS...to do what exactly? Fight DL at SEA?
That's completely laughable and would take all credibility away from AS management.

If those scenarios carry any fruition then it's obviously clear AS overplayed their hand with DL.

[Edited 2014-06-13 20:44:44]
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:43 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 185):
Really? Who told you that?
Please also explain how this partnership (AS/AA) would actually benefit AS like a partnership with DL somehow could not. We now know that a partnership with just DL wasn't going to cut it for AS. So why would AS be running towards AA?

A partnership between AS/AA in order to fight DL at SEA would sound to me like an admittance of the biggest epic blunder in AS history. (namely allowing DL to invade SEA without keeping a stake in DL's success there).

Did I say ANYWHERE that AS was going to enter an exclusive partnership with AA? No. I didn't. What I did say was that AA and AS management have met and are working towards strengthening their alliance. Nothing more, nothing less. It is what it is. Prior to DL deciding to take on AS in SEA, AA and AS were already partners, although the partnership wasn't as "strong" (or so we though) as the DL/AS partnership. This is just finding a way to strengthen those ties.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:48 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 187):
So? Meetings schmeetings.

The fact some of you seem so elated about that prospect (AS/AA) is just absolutely banal.

So in the end let's say...AS needs AA, AA needs AS...to do what exactly? Fight DL at SEA?
That's completely laughable and would take all credibility away from AS management.

If those scenarios carry any fruition then it's obviously clear AS overplayed their hand with DL.

WHAT exactly is wrong with AS strengthening their ties with AA? Who said anything about fighting DL at SEA? It was DL that cancelled a great deal of their code share flights with AS. AS is simply going to funnel the traffic previously would have gone to DL now to AA. It can be funneled in SEA, PDX, ANC, SAN, LAX, ORD, DFW, PHL or any one of AS or AA's hubs or focus cities. I imagine DL and AS will maintain some sort of relationship it's just not what it was

[Edited 2014-06-13 20:49:36]
 
TPA0822
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:49 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 186):

The executives at AA who have met with AS saying just that.

Were you in that meeting? Simpe answer - yes or no.
 
peanuts
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 189):
WHAT exactly is wrong with AS strengthening their ties with AA?

Was that a serious question?
Look in your back yard. See any widgets? More than normal? And I believe many more are on the way.

So yes, there is a lot wrong with that.

What AS is doing now is fanning the flames at SEA. They both are at it, DL as well.
But to me is sounds a bit smarter trying to keep a stake in DL's prospective SEA success. Right? AS is walking away from that more and more. And that will probably go down as a huge calculated blunder.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 189):
It was DL that cancelled a great deal of their code share flights with AS.

Seriously. It's time to stop victimizing AS in this. It's a dance. Get it?
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 191):
Seriously. It's time to stop victimizing AS in this. It's a dance. Get it?

Did I say "woe is me"? No. I stated a fact. DL cancelled a great deal of their codeshares with AS and AS responded by doing the same.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 191):
Was that a serious question?
Look in your back yard. See any widgets? More than normal? And I believe many more are on the way.

So yes, there is a lot wrong with that.

What AS is doing now is fanning the flames at SEA. They both are at it, DL as well.
But to me is sounds a bit smarter trying to keep a stake in DL's prospective SEA success. Right? AS is walking away from that more and more. And that will probably go down as a huge calculated blunder.

What? What's wrong with it? You're suggesting that AS should cozy up even more to DL? AS is maintaining the status quo (which, I'll admit, isn't much these days) but I doubt you'll see AS and DL get any more comfortable with each other. I think AS learned their lesson the first time around. I'm pretty sure DL doesn't want AS getting any closer with AA. AA is the largest airline in the world. AA, if they get this merger done right, can actually cause DL some grief. If AA partners with AS, it just causes even more problems for DL.
 
jetlanta
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:03 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 192):
AA is the largest airline in the world. AA, if they get this merger done right, can actually cause DL some grief. If AA partners with AS, it just causes even more problems for DL.

Oh good grief. You think Delta is a difficult partner? You think the "largest airline in the world" needs AS? For what? To feed their nonexistent SEA gateway? Maybe PDX? Maybe ANC? The truth is that AA doesn't "need" AS for anything. They are not AS' knight in shining armor. And they certainly aren't going to give AS any sort of deal. And whatever they do isn't going to have a hill of beans impact on Delta's SEA plan.
 
ASFlyer
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:21 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 193):
Oh good grief. You think Delta is a difficult partner? You think the "largest airline in the world" needs AS? For what? To feed their nonexistent SEA gateway? Maybe PDX? Maybe ANC? The truth is that AA doesn't "need" AS for anything. They are not AS' knight in shining armor. And they certainly aren't going to give AS any sort of deal. And whatever they do isn't going to have a hill of beans impact on Delta's SEA plan.

Do you just selectively read the posts that you want to respond to? Did you read my post above that said that AS/AA can support each other in their respective hubs and focus cities? SEA, ANC, PDX, SAN, LAX, PHX, DFW, ORD. Anything AS does to strengthen their network will be good for AS in SEA. It doesn't have to be about fighting DL in SEA. It just has to help make AA and AS stronger airlines.

AA may not "need" AS, but they could certainly use the boost to their own network. In case you weren't aware, the largest airline in the world is relatively weak in the Northwest. That may not last forever, but it's what's going on right now.

You're the only one that is saying anything about AA being AS' knight in shining armor. I didn't, but the truth is, AA and AS have been longstanding partners since way before DL entered the picture. There's a foundation to build on and when the day comes that AA doesn't have a use for AS, it's a good bet that AS will be a stronger airline that they are even today. You see it differently, fine. You have your opinion and I have mine - at the end of the day, they're both just opinions.
 
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:57 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 187):
Everyone talks with everybody.

And more airlines are reaching out to AS for partnership talks than usual.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 187):
So in the end let's say...AS needs AA, AA needs AS...to do what exactly? Fight DL at SEA?

No, to have the US-and-soon-to-be-AA network integrated into the current AA/AS agreement, for starters. And there are a few places in the west where AS can potentially feed traffic to US/AA to offset the loss in traffic to/from DL at SEA thanks to the cutbacks in codeshares with the widget.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Prost
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:35 am

The best agreement I can see between AA/AS, and this is a longshot that encompasses many different conspiracy theories, is if AA downsized PHX, AS then takes over the operation.

I'm sure I can alter this theory to incorporate some other hot topics.

Oh, the fleet will be Amadeo's A380s! There, I got a triple!
 
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tlecam
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:53 pm

Richard Anderson has said that he thinks consolidation is basically done,.

"Noting that “in the U.S., consolidation is principally done,” Anderson foresees three, not two, main international carriers, plus “three strong national carriers”—Alaska Airlines, JetBlue Airways and Southwest Airlines."

He has also said that Seattle was the only choice left for a west coast hub.

"The rationale is clear from Anderson’s point of view. While Delta has a significant domestic presence at Los Angeles International and long-haul service to Sydney and Tokyo, building material connectivity is impossible due to infrastructure constraints at the airport. San Francisco International is a United hub, so “Seattle is the only option left.” And Anderson believes the airport has been “relatively underserved,” given the size and number of large corporations in the area (Microsoft, Boeing, etc.). “The market is bigger than Minneapolis.” And he must know, having run Northwest’s Minneapolis/St. Paul hub during his pre-merger years."

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...elta-s-next-initiative-seattle-hub

I honestly don't think that Delta is "out to get " AS. AS happens to be hubbed at SEA with an extensive network. Delta needs to build it's own network, both to feed th APAC flights and to have a following there. It makes no sense to try to operate a hub there that makes them the carrier of choice only for TPAC flights. They can't collude with AS to time flights, nor would it make sense for AS to do so. And of course they're going to add flights on routes AS already serves - they cover all he major routes. DL can't go build a hub of profitable routes where AS doesn't have flights - they don't really exist.

DL is doing what's best for them - not what's worse for AS.

Ione thing is for sure, the west coast market and Seattle in particular is going to see change. Change is scary, especially if you fear your livelihood, or the livelihood of family and friends are threatened. That's not enjoyable.

Unfortunately it happens frequently at companies around the world. New competition enters the markets, sometimes from a former peer or business partner.

Most of the time it's not a villainous agenda, and there's really no evidence to support that with DL/ AS if you step back and look at the situation objectively. DL's entrance into SEA also doesn't mean that AS will wiped out. There are plenty of multi hub airports.
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F9Animal
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:20 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 139):
Really? Cause I see WN running from PHL and ATL. Oh and Delta has handled them well in SLC and sent em over to DEN.

The fact remains, a few legacy airlines got their butts handed to them while trying to keep WN from touching their territory. US Airways with Metro, United with Shuttle, and a few others. Like I said, if Alaska plays it smart, and operates the way WN did when the big boys were targeting them, I think AS will come out of this stronger. As long as AS just keeps doing what they do, and not knee jerk to war. So far, I am impressed with how Alaska has handled this.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: For Those In Denial That Delta Isnt Going After AS

Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting Prost (Reply 196):
The best agreement I can see between AA/AS, and this is a longshot that encompasses many different conspiracy theories, is if AA downsized PHX, AS then takes over the operation.

What good would that do AA?

The purpose of downsizing PHX would be to recapture traffic via DFW or LAX. But if AS or any other carrier steps in, that traffic is lost. So it defeats the point. Unless youre saying AA is losing money in PHX and would be better just downsizing regardless if they lose the traffic

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