Airliners.net

For those in denial that Delta isn't going after AS.....they know they will never be allowed to merge with AS so they are just stealing their passengers

http://www.frequentflier.com/blog/de...ts-to-be-alaskas-hometown-carrier/

■Two free checked bags through December 31
■60 days of complimentary Silver elite status, extendable through February 2015 by earning 4,000 elite miles or four segments, or upgradeable to Gold by earning 8,000 elite miles or eight segments
■One-time 30% discount for a full-Y ticket booked by December 31
■$25 e-certificate for purchasing an Economy Comfort ticket by December 31


Delta is going after their Alaska passengers also its not just SEA based anymore!

Sounds to me like DL isnt meeting their revenue goals in SEA.

AS has lower costs than DL, more loyalty and a better product.


What will likely happen is AS will have to work to lower their costs. There is no shortage of passenger volume in SEA, the question is at what price. AS will survive fine, but their costs will have to come down to make money on the marginal passenger.

It's interesting to note that the article claims there hasn't been a competitive counter move by AS, when in reality this was DL's counter move; these benefits duplicate what AS gives free to their registered "Club 49" members who live in the State of Alaska.

You can polish a turd all you want, it's still a turd. I'll keep my loyalty at AS.

atct

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 2): Sounds to me like DL isnt meeting their revenue goals in SEA.

Not sure about this but every time I fly through SEA with DL the flights are full and my experience is for DTW, MSP and SLC

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter): One-time 30% discount for a full-Y ticket booked by December 31

WOW, 30% off a Full Y ticket.

BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

Happens more often than you think. Especially people purchasing the day of or the day before because of emergencies.

Quoting Icareflies (Reply 4):

LF isn't a good measure of profitability. Is it possible that AS hasn't countered DL in Seattle that much because there is no need to yet ? Maybe Seattle isn't working out like DL thought and maybe it's been business as usual for AS.

Quoting enilria (Reply 5):

Business travelers buy full Y all the time either because it's last minute or for the instant upgrades.

DL buying AS will be good for no-one but Richard Anderson's own ego and pocket book.

It will be bad for AS's employees; bad for AS's customers and bad for AS's communities.

Anyone who doesn't think DL will begin slashing AS's route network the day after the merger is finalized is in total denial. It will mean less choices; less non-stop flights and higher fares for SEA and AS's other communities.

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 7): Business travelers buy full Y all the time either because it's last minute or for the instant upgrades.

On some city pairs on DL, Y is the only refundable coach fare basis. (B, M, and S are refundable in some city pairs, not in others; H may also be refundable in a few city pairs.)

Are the SkyWest/OO United Express service withdrawals in Oregon an opportunity for DL capture those (former) UA passengers? Will we see DL start to compete with Horizon Air in the Pacific northwest?

I don't think DL is going against AS, I think they're going for SEA. Of course AS is the top dog at SEA. I very highly doubt they have some vendetta against AS and are competing just out of spite

That probably sounds completely obvious to most people but when fanboyism infects some of these posters, you hear some pretty crazy accusations and reasonings behind things

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 10): Are the SkyWest/OO United Express service withdrawals in Oregon an opportunity for DL capture those (former) UA passengers? Will we see DL start to compete with Horizon Air in the Pacific northwest?

If they did it would probably be using OO which unless DL is willing to loose money I doubt it, OO runs the Pro-Rate markets more efficiently/profitably than DL can IMO.

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

Southwest probably sells thousands of them every day. Or are they excluded from this?  

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 10): Are the SkyWest/OO United Express service withdrawals in Oregon an opportunity for DL capture those (former) UA passengers? Will we see DL start to compete with Horizon Air in the Pacific northwest?

DL doesn't have enough SkyWest EMB's on their side to really backfill that flying. QX had tremendous loyalty. I think that would be all for not to pick up some of these NW routes. A good way for DL to lose money

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 1): AS has lower costs than DL, more loyalty and a better product.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 1): What will likely happen is AS will have to work to lower their costs.

Interesting, you state that they already have lower cost than DL then state that their response must be to lower their already lower cost even further.

Since fuel and taxes are essentially fixed for all players I can only assume that you mean the AS will have to cut staff compensation or lower the quality of the product.
So if that does allow you to maintain the pax does it then drive your staff away to the competitor or start affecting the level of customer service?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11): I don't think DL is going against AS, I think they're going for SEA.

I don't know that I agree with this statement. There is stuff happening elsewhere on the west coast besides SEA where DL is growing (other than routes only to SEA.) LAX is an obvious example but even more interesting to me anyway, and aimed even more directly at AS, seems to be DL's actions in SAN right now. I know nobody else considers anything involving SAN of concern or interest, but to me there's some evidence that DL might be targeting the entire left coast for growth. And again, I don't mean only as it relates to SEA. And I don't see how that can't affect AS a lot.

bb

For what it's worth, Richard Anderson will be in SEA on June 16. I have no idea if there will be an announcement or if this is just a celebration of the start of HKG service.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16): LAX is an obvious example but even more interesting to me anyway, and aimed even more directly at AS, seems to be DL's actions in SAN right now.

DL has been trying to expand in LAX long before this AS debacle. And SAN? Are you talking about that random route to Mexico?

DL adds routes all the time. When they grew a bit at DAL/DFW, were they "attacking/going after" WN and AA? Or were they just growing and filling gaps in major markets?

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985

I've bought several in the last week for me and some of my employees.

Kind of off topic but I was standing near ANC last night, and saw a Delta 744 on approach. I have never seen a Delta 744 in ANC before. Flight aware said it was from LAX, not sure where it was going, probably a military charter.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16): to me there's some evidence that DL might be targeting the entire left coast for growth

I've been noticing this as well and I wonder if the carrier in DL's sights is Virgin America? VX would give them some muscle on the West Coast and in certain transcon markets where DL isn't strong or present. Plus, VX may be the only carrier left that's small and noncompetitive enough to pass regulatory scrutiny, but large enough to be of value as a takeover. DL has the first-mover advantage of a completed merger behind them; everyone else (UA, WN, AA) is still in one stage of incompletion or another. Could DL leverage this advantage to squeeze in a second, smaller merger while their competitors are still digesting their most recent acquisitions?

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8): DL buying AS will be good for no-one but Richard Anderson's own ego and pocket book

Who said anything, on this thread, about DL buying AS? Certainly not the OP.




All this about DL not doing well at SEA and yet, are all the flights in place that they want? Is the operation at 100%? I don't believe so and yet everyone is predicting doom and gloom for DL without giving the operation a chance to ramp up.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8): DL buying AS will be good for no-one but Richard Anderson's own ego and pocket book.

They wont be allowed to........i dont think they want to anyway. They are just trying to steal all the profitable domestic rouets and elite flyers. It would make no sense at this point. They just made government approval 2000% harder by having more routes in common. the government wont allow them to merge, a.net needs to realize that not every airline will merge.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18): DL has been trying to expand in LAX long before this AS debacle. And SAN? Are you talking about that random route to Mexico? DL adds routes all the time. When they grew a bit at DAL/DFW, were they "attacking/going after" WN and AA? Or were they just growing and filling gaps in major markets?

How does one explain the special benefits they're extending to Alaska state residents? Is that part of their Seattle strategy also?

Quoting mayor (Reply 22): I don't believe so and yet everyone is predicting doom and gloom for DL without giving the operation a chance to ramp up.

To be fair many have also predicted the demise of AS without giving the DL operation a chance to ramp up.

I would think we wouldn't have a good indication if the SEA operation is a great success until Fall 2015. Then you would almost have a full year of results as well as the peak holiday and summer seasons.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 24): How does one explain the special benefits they're extending to Alaska state residents? Is that part of their Seattle strategy also?

Oh wow, blame my lack of sleep last night. I read "Alaska passengers" more than once and just assumed they meant AS passengers (and assumed AS pax out of SEA.) Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. It would take me a lot to convince me that any airline would go after another out of anger or whatever (I'm not saying you're saying that) but yeah, this latest move does seem to throw the gauntlet down more. Perhaps DL is looking for regional dominance and not just SEA?

Who cares?! Airlines all compete with each other. Why does everyone here have such an ASvsDL fettish?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11): I don't think DL is going against AS, I think they're going for SEA. Of course AS is the top dog at SEA. I very highly doubt they have some vendetta against AS and are competing just out of spite That probably sounds completely obvious to most people but when fanboyism infects some of these posters, you hear some pretty crazy accusations and reasonings behind things

Yep, it's likely they are interested in long-term growth opportunities in SEA in particular and the west in general. There's only so much you can do within a partnership. No reason to think that SEA can't support multiple successful hub operations (just like DEN, CHI, NYC, WAS). All the "war" analogies are way overdone here. Ultimately, it's just about business to these folks. Sorry, I just don't see DL engaging in the build-up as some sort of money-losing retribution tactic.

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

When I was traveling with the government 5 years ago IAH-ACY (via PHL) I bought Y fares all the time.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 20): Kind of off topic but I was standing near ANC last night, and saw a Delta 744 on approach. I have never seen a Delta 744 in ANC before. Flight aware said it was from LAX, not sure where it was going, probably a military charter.

It was a medical emergency I believe.

atct

Can anyone explain why AS still partners with DL? I see where it is a good deal for DL to gain Asia feed, but what benefit does AS receive. You can buy a ticket SEA-LAX on alaskaair.com and they promote DL flights...

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27): Who cares?! Airlines all compete with each other. Why does everyone here have such an ASvsDL fettish?

Quoting michman (Reply 28): All the "war" analogies are way overdone here. Ultimately, it's just about business to these folks. Sorry, I just don't see DL engaging in the build-up as some sort of money-losing retribution tactic.

Thanks... basically my views on it. Airlines will be airlines

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

I've bought about 30 of them this year--most of them are on WN, but have purchased a smattering on AS. The 30% discount is off ONE full Y ticket.

Keep Alaska My Alaska  

Quoting atct (Reply 29): When I was traveling with the government 5 years ago IAH-ACY (via PHL) I bought Y fares all the time.

YCA fares are different than the general, run of the mill Y fares. They come from the same pool but the government discounted Y fares are not the "full Y" that the airline is referencing for this discount.

Quoting SEAtown (Reply 30): Can anyone explain why AS still partners with DL? I see where it is a good deal for DL to gain Asia feed, but what benefit does AS receive. You can buy a ticket SEA-LAX on alaskaair.com and they promote DL flights...

There's a little benefit in it for Alaska, but it's diminishing rapidly.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27): Why does everyone here have such an ASvsDL fettish?

Because it would be an amazing combination and too good of an opportunity to pass up. That said, I do think this is a lot more about business on the west coast and not just SEA. Without sufficient feed (cheap at that), DL will have a hard time supporting their main international operation on the west coast, especially with SFO in the picture. If AS did not want to provide their connecting flights at a prorate that would be competitive with UA feeds into its own hub at SFO, I could totally see why DL would not be interested in continuing its partnership with AS, unless they could dictate the terms. By flying its own metal and being able to directly control costs and capacity, DL will be able to drive an acceptable PRASM vs. UA at SFO and probably AA at LAX. The writing on the wall has been there for years that the company needed do something about the west coast, and boy, is it doing something. It may not end up keeping all the flights it's launching (yes, it's time for darts and beer), but it needs to try. If it doesn't, AA or UA will have its head in terms of corporate contracting and west coast frequent flyer loyalty. This is Delta's way of staying on top of the industry.

It's competition. And the consumer is benefiting.

After a quick browse-through of the thread, I didn't see this mentioned. This is from a KTOO news article.

"Delta Airlines gave the Juneau Community Foundation $10,000 for the Augustus Brown Swimming Pool last night. The check presentation coincided with the arrival of Delta’s first flight from Seattle to Juneau.

Delta’s Seattle Vice President Mike Medeiros pledged the amount during a CBJ assembly meeting in April, causing the packed city hall chambers to erupt in cheers. At the time, city manager Kim Kiefer had proposed temporarily closing the downtown pool to save the city money during a tight budget year.

Medeiros says the donation announcement was not planned. His purpose for being at the meeting that night was to introduce himself to the assembly. He had no idea city hall would be packed with pool supporters."

“As I got up and addressed the crowd I thought, ‘You know, this is important for us to demonstrate as a company that we want to be more than an airline that serves Juneau, we want to be a community partner.’ And I thought on the spot that this is a great way to step up and show that we can help contribute to something good in the community of Juneau."

Link: http://www.ktoo.org/2014/05/30/delta-follows-10000-promise/

I don't see how this is a bad thing, outside the business and #avfreak world anyways.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8): Richard Anderson's own ego

Compared to Horton and Smisek, Anderson is practically an introvert. Let's also not forget that Anderson was ex-NW. He didn't bring any *direct* traces of Northwest over during the merger. Delta colors. Delta name. I've also *heard* that Anderson tries to foster a positive community at DL.   Now UA.. or US's "east" and "west" operations.. or AA..

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16): but to me there's some evidence that DL might be targeting the entire left coast for growth.

   Historically speaking, the only west coast fortress hub is United's at SFO. LAX is split evenly. AS, the largest carrier at SEA, has less than 40% market share.. SAN? SNA? Same story.. no *dominant* carriers. Perhaps DL has decided to build up across the entire west coast, rather than a single airport.

In terms of demand, economics and whatnot, this would seem to be the best way to build up a west coast presence.. point-to-point rather than hub and spoke. The massive amount of jungle jets we're seeing across the west coast, to me, is indicative that DL is pursuing a P2P approach. Frequency is the best way to be competitive on these routes; it seems like all these AS passengers swear by AS.. unless it's more convenient (not "better") to, instead, take a DL/UA/WN/AA/VX/B6 flight (sidenote: hopefully we'll see some MD-95s!).

In short, I see DL maintaing their domestic hub at SLC, growing their TPAC hub at SEA, while meeting/creating marginal demand at the WC airports.

[Edited 2014-06-10 12:49:54]

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27): Who cares?! Airlines all compete with each other. Why does everyone here have such an ASvsDL fettish?

Well who else is doing anything, if DL could not buy AS and are instead doing actions to take their customers and essentially "run them out of business" where are the other airlines, are they just sitting on the sidelines watching DL?
I accept that for the most part they do not chase market share anymore, but if DL has declared "open season" on AS.......

Quoting par13del (Reply 36): Well who else is doing anything, if DL could not buy AS and are instead doing actions to take their customers and essentially "run them out of business" where are the other airlines, are they just sitting on the sidelines watching DL? I accept that for the most part they do not chase market share anymore, but if DL has declared "open season" on AS.......

This is what I've been asking for weeks? At what point is it illegal for a larger company to basically attack a smaller company and try to run them out of town or force them to sell out?

If Home Depot launched an attack on small McLendons Hardware, would that be legal?

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 37): If Home Depot launched an attack on small McLendons Hardware, would that be legal?

Huh?
Walmart has wiped out Main Street USA.

DL needs SEA. From a competitive perspective, its back is against the wall. AA will be a deadly, highly effective force soon.
All AS is at this point to DL is collateral damage. Nothing personal.

[Edited 2014-06-10 13:33:38]

Quoting Icareflies (Reply 4): Not sure about this but every time I fly through SEA with DL the flights are full and my experience is for DTW, MSP and SLC

But those are the markets where they would do well. How about SEA-SFO/LAX/SAN?

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8): DL buying AS will be good for no-one but Richard Anderson's own ego and pocket book.

There are things AS can do easily to thwart DL. But they are expensive and would hurt the company. One is to take the company private. Would leave AS cash short if they did this since their market cap is so high. Another is to make the company ESOP. 51% would be owned by AS employees. That would be ugly too and piss off existing shareholders.

Quoting par13del (Reply 15): Interesting, you state that they already have lower cost than DL then state that their response must be to lower their already lower cost even further.

yes, so? The SEA market can be stimulated further with lower fares, but AS has to make $$$ on the marginal pax who isnt flying today but would if fare were low enough.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 39): yes, so? The SEA market can be stimulated further with lower fares, but AS has to make $$$ on the marginal pax who isnt flying today but would if fare were low enough.

Yes the market can be stimulated, but as the next section of the post ask the question, where is AS going to cut cost that will not start affecting its products which at this point in time is allowing them to fight off competition?

Quoting par13del (Reply 15): Since fuel and taxes are essentially fixed for all players I can only assume that you mean the AS will have to cut staff compensation or lower the quality of the product. So if that does allow you to maintain the pax does it then drive your staff away to the competitor or start affecting the level of customer service?

Does Alaska Airlines even need to stimulate the SEA market further? They already are doing a great job at decent yoelds, why would they flood the market (in addition to Delta's increases) just to depress their margins? It doesn't make sense to me. There is a way for DL and AS to coexist, and Alaska has smart management, amd a stable workforce that has their back, to make it work.

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

Happens thousands of times every day (literally).

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 37): At what point is it illegal for a larger company to basically attack a smaller company and try to run them out of town or force them to sell out?

Pricing below your own costs is also not a violation of the law unless it is part of a strategy to eliminate competitors, and when that strategy has a probability of creating a monopoly for the discounting firm so that it can raise prices far into the future and recoup its losses. Good luck trying to prove that in court...

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 39):

Always full, the loads are also very healthy on SEA-LAS and the newly started SEA-YVR.

Quoting par13del (Reply 40): where is AS going to cut cost that will not start affecting its products which at this point in time is allowing them to fight off competition?

Well I dont know, since I dont work there.

Quoting prost (Reply 41): Does Alaska Airlines even need to stimulate the SEA market further? They already are doing a great job at decent yoelds, why would they flood the market (in addition to Delta's increases) just to depress their margins?

Just having more capacity will increase the likelihood of regular fare sales and lower overall fares.

Quoting enilria (Reply 5): WOW, 30% off a Full Y ticket. BTW, when is the last time anybody bought a Full Y ticket? 1985?

Technically no one can buy a "full Y" ticket - those are published but cannot be sold. Pull a fare matrix for any market and you'll see a straight "Y" fare alongside a far much more reasonable "YASR1" fare - THAT is the full coach fare AS sells in any market.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11): I don't think DL is going against AS, I think they're going for SEA.

So if NK announced they were going to open a major hub in ATL and have 150 or more departures per day from there in the next 18-24 months, would you say they were going after ATL, or going after DL? I'd guess the latter.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 38): All AS is at this point to DL is collateral damage. Nothing personal.

..to THEM, no. To AS and their employees, it's highly and deeply personal.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 46): So if NK announced they were going to open a major hub in ATL and have 150 or more departures per day from there in the next 18-24 months, would you say they were going after ATL, or going after DL? I'd guess the latter.

ATL.

If they hunted down every DL hub (especially if they did it specifically to DL) then I'd think that they're going after DL.

AS is at SEA. I don't think it would make a difference if it was AA, UA, WN, etc. DL wants SEA. They want to do well. They'll do better with SEA under their belt. Hunting down and killing AS will just be a waste.

So no, I completely disagree with you

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Thread starter): For those in denial that Delta isn't going after AS.....they know they will never be allowed to merge with AS so they are just stealing their passengers

I don't have a dog in this fight and don't really care who wins, but the idea of any business "owning" their customers needs to be challenged. What ever is happening in SEA, Delta is competing for passengers not stealing them.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 46): To AS and their employees, it's highly and deeply personal.

If that's true I find that dangerous. I know, emotion and drive can make one reach for the stars but it can also make one fall very hard. I really hope AS management won't get "personal". They need to keep their heads cool. The faster they recognize change is happening, the better they will adapt. It looks like they are adapting.
I want AS to do well. It's better for the consumer.
But I do believe the good old SEA days are gone for AS. It's time to either diversify or shrink and become regional.

If things turn ugly for AS then DL could still come in and play "savior". Let's hope AS finds a way independently. And going to bed with AA alone isn't a solution either. Just saying..

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 46): So if NK announced they were going to open a major hub in ATL and have 150 or more departures per day from there in the next 18-24 months, would you say they were going after ATL, or going after DL? I'd guess the latter.

Not the same.
DL wants SEA. It needs SEA. Mainly to stay competitive with AA and UA.
Believe me, AS is collateral damage to DL. It's not about them (AS) being there. They are "just there" now, at this point. No offense meant.

Let's make a deal: if AS management promises to keep cool heads and use their brain, and the AS employees make it "personal"; DL could seriously still get a bleeding from SEA. It will take sacrifice though. Are the AS employees ready for that? They say AS has a loyal following. Does that include their own employees? It's a serious question. When the going gets tough...

[Edited 2014-06-10 16:46:53]