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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 46):
1:07:48 ACARS last transmission (VHF) which apparently included the notation of a WP change having been entered since last scheduled report at 12:37. ACARS information included fuel remaining. com loss between 17:07 Z and 18:25 Z

Nice timeline tailskid, but I don't belive the 1:07:48 event being accurate:
- ACARS was over SATCOM (which is evident in the Inmarsat satellite communications logs)
- There were rumours about WP change, but it has not been verified anywhere and probably was an inaccurate rumour
- SATCOM was disabled at the earlierst just after the 1:07:48 transmission and at the latest at 2:03 when there was no response from the plane to a query by the satelllite. The disabling can be any time between 1:07 and 2:03
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:29 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 53):
Where did the story about the five people who knew them both and claimed that all but one was from Fariq come from?

CNN's Nic Robertson. He sourced "gov't officials". I'll bite. And, I recall him making at least two separate spots with his scoop.

I'll Pm you about the audio...yeah, you'll need to have someone do your listening for you, I'm afraid. Cheers.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 54):
Nice timeline tailskid, but I don't belive the 1:07:48 event being accurate:

- ACARS was over SATCOM (which is evident in the Inmarsat satellite communications logs)
- There were rumours about WP change, but it has not been verified anywhere and probably was an inaccurate rumour
- SATCOM was disabled at the earlierst just after the 1:07:48 transmission and at the latest at 2:03 when there was no response from the plane to a query by the satelllite. The disabling can be any time between 1:07 and 2:03

Hey Finn350,

If the disabled transponder prompts ACARS, as tailspin seems to think, and you say that ACARS was via SATCOM, then may we not conclude that SATCOM was disabled between 1:07-1:21? Or does the disabled transponder not trigger ACARS? Or, am I just botching this up?

[Edited 2014-06-13 00:30:26]
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 55):
If the disabled transponder prompts ACARS, as tailspin seems to think, and you say that ACARS was via SATCOM, then may we not conclude that SATCOM was disabled between 1:07-1:21? Or does the disabled transponder not trigger ACARS? Or, am I just botching this up?

Yes, if disbaling the transponder prompts ACARS and there is no ACARS then we could conclude that ACARS was disabled before the transponder was disabled at 1721 Z.

However, the Inmarsat satellite communciations log doesn't support that conclusion. as they just state that the link was lost some time between 17:07:48 Z and 18:03 Z (page 36):

18:03 [Z, 2:03 MYT] - No response to Ground to Air DATA-2 ACARS Data. Link lost at sometime between 17:07:48 [Z 1:07 MYT] and here.

Source: http://www.dca.gov.my/mainpage/MH370%20Data%20Communication%20Logs.pdf

Edit: It is still possible that ACARS was disabled before the transponder (and that probably would be consistent with a malicious intent theory). Either ACARS and/or SATCOM was apparently disabled before 1737 Z, as there was no ACARS report at 1737 Z, and if shutting down the transponder would have induced an ACARS report then either ACARS and/or SATCOM was disabled before 1721 Z (disabling SATCOM requires isolating the left main AC bus, so that probably was the last step if we speculate, and a logical disabling sequence would have been ACARS - Transponder - SATCOM through isolating left main AC bus).

[Edited 2014-06-13 01:44:21]
 
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Istanbuler83
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:24 am

Hi,

Have you seen this interview with Malaysia's defence minister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruHpmSd4WuA&src_vid=wg2eWmBqWEI&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_4398929

I mean, I am definetly not a body-language expert, but as a flight attendant after years of experience with passengers from different parts of the world I can definetly tell, that he is holding something back and so stressed.
Istanbuler83
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:06 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 56):
Edit: It is still possible that ACARS was disabled before the transponder (and that probably would be consistent with a malicious intent theory). Either ACARS and/or SATCOM was apparently disabled before 1737 Z, as there was no ACARS report at 1737 Z, and if shutting down the transponder would have induced an ACARS report then either ACARS and/or SATCOM was disabled before 1721 Z (disabling SATCOM requires isolating the left main AC bus, so that probably was the last step if we speculate, and a logical disabling sequence would have been ACARS - Transponder - SATCOM through isolating left main AC bus).

But you are saying two things here if you believe ACARS to be over SATCOM. If ACARS IS over SATCOM, and the transponder disabled triggers an ACARS 'report' (at 17:21). and there was no ACARS report, then there also was NO SATCOM. So we then know that the left AC bus was isolated before 17:21. No? Or am I having a NAV30 moment.
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:29 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 58):
But you are saying two things here if you believe ACARS to be over SATCOM. If ACARS IS over SATCOM, and the transponder disabled triggers an ACARS 'report' (at 17:21). and there was no ACARS report, then there also was NO SATCOM. So we then know that the left AC bus was isolated before 17:21. No? Or am I having a NAV30 moment.

ACARS can be disabled separately from SATCOM. So disabling ACARS after 1707 Z (the last ACARS report) and before 1737 Z (if we are to believed there should have been an ACARS report at 1737 Z) seems evident.

SATCOM could have been disabled any time between 1707 Z (SATCOM must have worked, as there was an ACARS report over SATCOM) and 1803 Z (SATCOM didn't respond to a query by the satellite).
 
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p51tang
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:38 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 57):
Hi,

Have you seen this interview with Malaysia's defence minister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruHpmSd4WuA&src_vid=wg2eWmBqWEI&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_4398929

I mean, I am definetly not a body-language expert, but as a flight attendant after years of experience with passengers from different parts of the world I can definetly tell, that he is holding something back and so stressed.

Stressed at 14:40 (How was it lost) = yes

Why?

Because he has intimate knowledge of 'what has gone down'.Despite how vainglorious he represents himself to the media.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:46 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 57):
Have you seen this interview with Malaysia's defence minister:

Yes. I can't find a word suited to aptly describe my reaction to his demeanor. I think I squirmed as much as he did, if that's possible. I feel confident in saying that he will rue the day he sat down with her.

I was particularly impressed with his response to her asking if ATC tried to contact MH370 that morning.

His response is this "I'm sure they did, but, um, I cannot today confirm one way or the other, because unless I have it in front of me today, that sort of questions are so detailed I don't want to be cornered and misquoted". LMAO. This was at 3:07 if interested.


She should have known better that to ask a question of such detail. I mean, really, how could he possibly know if his own ATC tried to contact the a/c? These things take time to figure out, after all. What a sham, and a very sad one for these families. I'm personally beyond disgusted by him. Guy makes my skin crawl. But what's more interesting, on a very human level, is that I also have a good deal of empathy for him. That this is so disturbs me.

  
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:51 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 59):
ACARS can be disabled separately from SATCOM. So disabling ACARS after 1707 Z (the last ACARS report) and before 1737 Z (if we are to believed there should have been an ACARS report at 1737 Z) seems evident.

SATCOM could have been disabled any time between 1707 Z (SATCOM must have worked, as there was an ACARS report over SATCOM) and 1803 Z (SATCOM didn't respond to a query by the satellite).

Okay...but then we can say more or less for sure that at least one of them had to be disabled before 17:21, not 17:37, right? Sorry, I'm just trying to nail something down.

Here, let me put it very directly. If an ACARS 'report' should have been triggered by the transponder being disabled, at 17:21, why wasn't it? Because one of the two were disabled. If we accept that if both ACARS and SATCOM had been functioning, and that with that proper functioning there would have been an ACARS at 17:21, and there was not, then one of the two had to disabled BEFORE 17:21? Right?

[Edited 2014-06-13 03:02:44]
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:26 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 57):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruHpmSd4WuA&src_vid=wg2eWmBqWEI&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_4398929

I mean, I am definetly not a body-language expert, but as a flight attendant after years of experience with passengers from different parts of the world I can definetly tell, that he is holding something back and so stressed.

There is no question that the Minister was both stressed and was holding back on information.
Someone in his position will have knowledge which he can pass on to the public, in an interview, and he will have knowledge that cannot be made public at that stage, for a whole host of reasons.
I would think everyone understands that, even an interviewer ...

It is also natural that a person in that situation is stressed; if he wasn't he would be as cold as ice, a person with no feelings. And I don't think that is desirable either.
A person like him has to be very careful what they are saying because just the slightest error or wrong word will immediately hit the news.

The other aspect to this is the interviewer ...
No doubt she had a list of question and she was drilling the poor bloke for an answer, for all its worth; it's good for the ratings.

If the interviewer had been more kindly, instead of being so confrontational, she probably would have got a lot more information that would make us, the viewer, understand much better what happened up to that point in time.

If the Minister was a bit stressed, while still trying to be polite, then the journalist interviewing him was full of herself.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:07 pm

Quoting p51tang (Reply 60):
Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 57):
Hi,

Have you seen this interview with Malaysia's defence minister:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruHpmSd4WuA&src_vid=wg2eWmBqWEI&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_4398929

I mean, I am definetly not a body-language expert, but as a flight attendant after years of experience with passengers from different parts of the world I can definetly tell, that he is holding something back and so stressed.

Stressed at 14:40 (How was it lost) = yes

Why?

Because he has intimate knowledge of 'what has gone down'.Despite how vainglorious he represents himself to the media.

And because his government could be involved more deeply somehow and he knows it...
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sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 63):
No doubt she had a list of question and she was drilling the poor bloke for an answer, for all its worth; it's good for the ratings.

Hey there...just had to disagree with this comment. If you had a family member on that plane, would 'poor bloke' still apply?

If you saw this guy strutting around his Hawaiian hotel suite in his bathrobe in the midst of all of this, while perpetuating a cover-up, would you call him a poor bloke?

He can't even answer IF ATC tried to call the plane? This isn't sensitivity to anything. This is THE most basic fact possible!!!!!!!!!!! It's horrible what this man and his stooges are doing.

Now I'm not only jealous of the air you breath, but of the kindness it engenders. cheers.
 
Backseater
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:45 pm

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 57):
Have you seen this interview with Malaysia's defence minister:

I take it that the interview you linked to is the raw interview of the Malaysian Defense MInister by Caro Meldrum-Hanna, excerpts of which were used in ABC's Four Corners show.

Since Caro was asking detailed questions without getting many answers besides "your questions are really not the questions that most people care for", I wish she had tried the following angle:
- C: Mr. Minister, you very much care about the families of those onboard MH370?
- H: Of course , I do ... very much
- C: You dispatched a special delegation to Beijing in mid March to brief the families?
- H: Yes
- C: Under the direction of Lt. Gen. Ackbal bin Haji Abdul Samad, air operations commander of the Royal Malaysian Air Force?
- H: Yes around March 13th
- C: Lt. Gen Samad while at the Lido Hotel in Beijing on March 14th showed to the families a slide entitled: "Military radar plot from Pulau Perak to last plot at 02:22H". I have here a copy...(hand copy to Mr. H). Can you tell us what that chart represents?
- H: xxxxx
- C: So you confirm that that slide shows the track of MH370 collected by Malaysian military radars? or Thai radars?
- H: xxxxx
- C(if yes above): And "295R" in the upper corner means altitude 29500 or radial 295 from Butterworth AB?
- H: xxxxx
- C (if answer was "radial 295"): but the point shown on the chart is not on radial 295 from Butterworth?
- C (if answer was "29500") And around Pulau Perak, altitude would be 27500?
- H xxxxx
- C: from the military radar data that was collected, what was the lowest altitude used by MH370 while flying in the region shown on this plot?
- ...
Depending upon H responses, that line could be continued. However, I am convinced that the Minister would have retreated behind the protection of his "wall of transparency" early on to avoid being trapped, cornered, ..., as usual.
 
sipadan
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 66):
Depending upon H responses, that line could be continued. However, I am convinced that the Minister would have retreated behind the protection of his "wall of transparency" early on to avoid being trapped, cornered, ..., as usual.

Backseater, this is not one of your more brilliant insights. LOL.
 
nupogodi
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:28 pm

Quoting CabSauv (Reply 44):
nupogodi - if you are bored and have a few spare minutes, would you be able to code something like this - http://www.amsa.gov.au/media/mh370-timeline/ - from 8 March to date

Hah, sorry, work keeps me pretty busy and I'm not much of a front-end guy anyway. There's not really much magic on that page. Just the CSS to align the elements with the date on the left, and then the expand/collapse buttons. You can download things "off the shelf" to do all that. Even for a non-technical person, should only take a few hours to learn all you need to do. Have fun!
A man must know how to look before he can hope to see.
 
AVLnative
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 41):
Am I seeing evidence of an actual conspiracy? Cover-up? Or, even something more sinister?

You had me going there until I read the last two paragraphs!   The power of suggestion...
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting sipadan (Reply 61):
Quoting YoungMans (Reply 63):
No doubt she had a list of question and she was drilling the poor bloke for an answer, for all its worth; it's good for the ratings.

Hey there...just had to disagree with this comment. If you had a family member on that plane, would 'poor bloke' still apply?

If you saw this guy strutting around his Hawaiian hotel suite in his bathrobe in the midst of all of this, while perpetuating a cover-up, would you call him a poor bloke?

He can't even answer IF ATC tried to call the plane? This isn't sensitivity to anything. This is THE most basic fact possible!!!!!!!!!!! It's horrible what this man and his stooges are doing.

Now I'm not only jealous of the air you breath, but of the kindness it engenders. cheers.

Agreed 100%

@ YoungMans - "poor bloke" - are you serious? I guess Abbott, Obama and all other politicians are also 'poor blokes' who should not get grilled or be held accountable? If he can't take the heat there are plenty of places around Malaysia where he can go to cool down whilst another 'poor bloke' earning tax payer paid wages takes over...  
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:06 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 46):
8:10:58 - (01:10) Handshake Request, with response (INMARSAT ping) (the 40 Degree position line) (00:19 UTC)
8:19:29 - (20:19) Log-On Request (reported as a Partial Handshake), initiated from the aircraft
8:19:37 - An "R-Channel burst" - the last transmission received from the aircraft.
9:15:56 - Handshake Request - No Response from Aircraft

If anybody finds any errors in it, I'd appreciate it if you let me know.

Just a detail: the "(00:19 UTC)" should probably be one row lower, at 8:19:29 if I am not mistaken - and (20:19) would be in which time zone?

In any case, good job, very informative!
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mandala499
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting avlnative (Reply 65):
You had me going there until I read the last two paragraphs!   The power of suggestion...

That's the whole point of it... it's so easy for one to trick oneself into it...

But... if it ended up there for real... you heard it first on a.net   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
65mustang
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 15):
The absence of any debris from 9M-MRO after searching for three months has been surprising, leading some to even suggest that the a/c must therefore have landed somewhere.

I too find this intriguing. The longer time goes by without discovery of any debris, I think it increases the chances that the fuselage sank relatively intact and is in very deep water. If normally buoyant materials made it to the bottom of the Indian Ocean, they are likely to not return to the surface on their own. On another site, someone posted a comment about the effect of pressure on materials deep in the ocean:

"If anything sank, it will be less and less buoyant with the pressure increasing. Even if the cabin sank in a whole, and it opened when it crashed on seabed, I don't see anything could be buoyant at ~5000 meters: all things which might float at the sea surface are crushed by the pressure (more than 7000 psi!). Polyethylene and like have an intrinsic density > 1: porous materials with "opened bubbles" are water impregnated and those with "closed bubbles" are crunched beyond floatting possibility. Even organic things which will slowly [decay] (sorry for the picture...) can't become buoyant with carbon dioxide or methane gassing: CO2 is solvable in water (and if protected from water, CO2 is a liquid at this pressure), and CH4 gives hydrate."
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting avlnative (Reply 65):
You had me going there until I read the last two paragraphs!   The power of suggestion...

That's a very good example of how the main-stream-media lies - by telling us 'nothing but the truth'.
 
YoungMans
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:08 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 66):
.... "poor bloke" - are you serious?

Yes, you (and others) are right, "poor bloke" wasn't the best choice of terms.
I have absolutely no illusions as to who and what politicians are.
(One could write books about that ...)

However, again there are two possibilities ...
One is, something happened for which the Malaysian side is indeed responsible. But even then, there are things and information which cannot be immediately disclosed. The interviewer should have known not to be so confrontational.
If she hadn't been, i.e. if she had put the Minister at ease, be kindly, she would have got much more information from him than she did.
(Why couldn't the ABC have chosen an Asian journalist to do that job??)

Another possibility is that something much bigger happened, something where the Malaysians are not at liberty to handle the situation as they would like to. They may well be under very clear instructions.

Mentioning Abbott and Obama together with the Malaysian Minister is a bit unfair from your side.
The former two would have infinitely better training in deception and how to fool the public than any Malaysian Minister ever will.

[Edited 2014-06-13 15:12:27]

[Edited 2014-06-13 15:27:10]
 
tailskid
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 71):
The interviewer should have known not to be so confrontational.

Most likely the interviewer had studied tapes of other journalists trying to extract information from this guy in more diplomatic fashion and chose her manner in response.

The Malaysian Government has been distorting and dissembling continuously for the last three months.
I would have preferred to see her water boarding him!
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting YoungMans (Reply 71):
Mentioning Abbott and Obama together with the Malaysian Minister is a bit unfair from your side.
The former two would have infinitely better training in deception and how to fool the public than any Malaysian Minister ever will.

I'm not so sure about that. Any 'deception training' aside, from my experience politicians (among others) in SE Asia are masters of deception  
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p51tang
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:28 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 42):
Here's a timeline I've been accumulating.

11:56:08 As the engines were started, 9MMRO initiated an ACARS login.
0:40:38 * Tower * 370 32 Right Cleared for take-off. Good night.
0:41:43 MH370 began takeoff roll (16:41 UTC) Logged-On to Ground Earth Station (GES) 305/301, via the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) Inmarsat I-3 satellite
0:42:48 MAS 370 --> Okay level one eight zero direct IGARI Malaysian one err Three Seven Zero (Fariq)
0:46:51 * ATC * Malaysian Three Seven Zero Lumpur radar Good Morning climb flight level two five zero
0:46:54 MAS370 --> Morning level two five zero Malaysian Three Seven Zero (Fariq)
0:50:06 * ATC * Malaysian Three Seven Zero climb flight level three five zero
0:50:09 MAS370 --> Flight level three five zero Malaysia Three Seven Zero (Fariq)
1:01:14 MAS370 --> Malaysian Three Seven Zero maintaining level three five zero (TOC) (Fariq)
1:01:19 * ATC * Malaysia Three Seven Zero
1:07:48 ACARS last transmission (VHF) which apparently included the notation of a WP change having been entered since last scheduled report at 12:37. ACARS information included fuel remaining. com loss between 17:07 Z and 18:25 Z
1:07:55 MAS370 --> Malaysian...Three Seven Zero maintaining level three five zero (Fariq)
1:08:00 * ATC * Malaysian Three Seven Zero
1:19:24 * ATC * Malaysian Three Seven Zero contact Ho Chi Minh 120 decimal 9 Good Night on radio frequency 120.9 MHz.
1:19:29 MH 370 --> “good night Malaysian Three Seven Zero” (handover to Vietnamese ATC complete by Capt. Zaharie)


Excellent post.From the aforesaid,I did note that Fariq's replys to ATC were 'precise' with both at 3 seconds .As opposed to ATC, with a 3-5 minute reply.(I understand the workload) But is a 5 minute delay in transmitting further instructions acceptable?.

What are the options?.

[Edited 2014-06-13 22:41:17]
 
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Finn350
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:53 am

Quoting sipadan (Reply 58):
Here, let me put it very directly. If an ACARS 'report' should have been triggered by the transponder being disabled, at 17:21, why wasn't it? Because one of the two were disabled.

Yes, you are correct if ACARS report should have been triggered by the transponder being disabled. However, I haven't seen independent confirmation of the fact that there should be an ACARS report.

Quoting p51tang (Reply 74):
Excellent post.From the aforesaid,I did note that Fariq's replys to ATC were 'precise' with both at 3 seconds .As opposed to ATC, with a 3-5 minute reply.

There is no delay in the ATC replys. The transmission at 1:01:19 and 1:08:00 are ATC acknowledgements only and the next transmissions are unrelated.
 
abba
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:32 pm

Quoting tailskid (Reply 72):
Most likely the interviewer had studied tapes of other journalists trying to extract information from this guy in more diplomatic fashion and chose her manner in response.

To me it looks very much like an interviewer looking to extract the wrong information from the wrong man. A minister is a politician not an aviation professional. So it doesn't help asking him about numbers and such. He might easily remember an altitude or another number - that do not really make sense to him - wrongly. Most of the questions asked should be addressed to the leader of the investigation and not to a minister. That is: to a professional.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 72):
Most likely the interviewer had studied tapes of other journalists trying to extract information from this guy in more diplomatic fashion and chose her manner in response.

The Malaysian Government has been distorting and dissembling continuously for the last three months.
I would have preferred to see her water boarding him!

I could not believe the minister's evasiveness and antics during the interview. I was actually surprised he remained in front of the camera, and didn't walk out.

And what was so funny to the minister at 6:44 and 9:37 in the YouTube video? Pretty disappointing to see him laughing about such a serious incident that he likely knows a lot more about than the impression he made during the interview. This must have been very disturbing for MH370 family members.



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tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting abba (Reply 76):
To me it looks very much like an interviewer looking to extract the wrong information from the wrong man. A minister is a politician not an aviation professional. So it doesn't help asking him about numbers and such. He might easily remember an altitude or another number - that do not really make sense to him - wrongly. Most of the questions asked should be addressed to the leader of the investigation and not to a minister. That is: to a professional.

She wasn't asking him "exact numbers", she asked him what time he first heard about the missing airliner (there is a reason for that question.) After he wouldn't answer that simple question, she asked him how he heard about the missing airliner; he wouldn't answer that either. He never answered any of her questions, he evaded them all. He did (in a roundabout way) say that the the flight was tracked in real time by the Malaysian military. That was an accomplishment on her part to have pried that out of him. His mantra was "it will all come out." It's been three months and even simple stuff like "what altitude was it flying" hasn't come out. It's obvious they are hoping that given enough time people will lose interest and stop asking questions.

BTW
She was not a tough interviewer at all. She was mild in her manner and her questions; other interviewers might have kept repeating the same unanswered question over and over. She let him off the hook over and over.
 
abba
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:24 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 78):
She wasn't asking him "exact numbers", she asked him what time he first heard about the missing airliner (there is a reason for that question.)

She also asked about speeds and flight levels as well and a few more things.

Sure she was not tough. However, I highly doubt that she actually herself understood the significance of the questions she asked (I even wonder if she would ever know before looking at the safety sheet if it was an Airbus or a Boeing she arrived on in Malaysia!) and therefore were unable to get anything out of him. Actually, I think it is rather sensible for a politician not to give specific numbers or exact times in an interview. And she didn't get much further than that.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:41 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 78):
He did (in a roundabout way) say that the the flight was tracked in real time by the Malaysian military. That was an accomplishment on her part to have pried that out of him.

As far as I recall, that was already known? I certainly remember it being said in the news.

However, one point must be borne in mind. There were reports that MH370 'dropped off radar,' and I seem also to recall that it was later tracked by military radar (presumably at the request of ATC). The military track showed the aeroplane turning west and flying across Malaysia. However, there were all sorts of different speeds/heights reported from that time on. What's more, if the transcript is complete, there appears to be no record of the captain (or the FO) actually checking in with Ho Chi Minh?

Maybe procedures have changed nowadays, and there is no need to check in - or it is done automatically, or by the previous ATC guys?

But if oral checking-in is still required, is it possible that MH370 crashed at that point - at 01.19.29 hrs. - and that the military radar went on tracking a different aeroplane?

PS - a bit more info here:-

"Malaysia military believes a jetliner missing for almost four days turned and flew hundreds of kilometres to the west after it last made contact with civilian air traffic control off the country’s east coast, a senior officer told Reuters on Tuesday.

"I one of the most baffling mysteries in recent aviation history, a massive search operation for the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER, now in its fourth day, has so far found no trace of the aircraft or the 239 passengers and crew.

“It changed course after Kota Bharu and took a lower altitude. It made it into the Malacca Strait,” the senior military officer, who has been briefed on investigations, told Reuters.

"Thatould appear to rule out sudden catastrophic mechanical failure because it would mean the plane flew around 500 km at least after its last contact with air traffic control, although its transponder and other tracking systems were off.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03...-from-last-point-of-radio-contact/


[Edited 2014-06-14 23:21:12]
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:47 am

Quoting abba (Reply 79):
However, I highly doubt that she actually herself understood the significance of the questions she asked
That's a remarkable conclusion for you to come to. Is this because she's a woman?

Quoting abba (Reply 79):
(I even wonder if she would ever know before looking at the safety sheet if it was an Airbus or a Boeing she arrived on in Malaysia!) and therefore were unable to get anything out of him
Does this mean that you think her questions weren't aviation technical enough?

Quoting abba (Reply 79):
I think it is rather sensible for a politician not to give specific numbers or exact times in an interview.
So you support Malaysia's stonewalling the media?
 
65mustang
Posts: 84
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 6:57 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 80):
there appears to be no record of the captain (or the FO) actually checking in with Ho Chi Minh?

Have you ever been talking on a cell phone and got disconnected? Have you ever been sitting at home and the power goes out? Have you ever been in a car that got a flat tire and you had to pull over to the side of the road?

Sometimes things break and do not work as they were designed. Sometimes people break things on purpose and the thing does not work because that is what is intended by the person that broke the thing. CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT there are other reasons why the pilots might not have called ho chi minh other than the plane crashing 50 min out? Have you ever been in a place without a phone or cell phone signal when you wanted to make a call?
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting 65mustang (Reply 82):
CAN YOU NOT SEE THAT there are other reasons why the pilots might not have called ho chi minh other than the plane crashing 50 min out?
"MAS flight MH370 which went missing early this morning disappeared in Vietnamese airspace, the Vietnamese government has confirmed. "The plane lost contact in Ca Mau province airspace before it had entered contact with Ho Chi Minh City air traffic control," a statement posted on the official Vietnamese government website said. The plane was meant to transfer to Ho Chi Minh City air traffic control at 1.22am Malaysian time but never appeared, the statement reported by AFP said, citing a senior Ministry of Defence official.' - See more at: http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/m...ed-into-ocean#sthash.Jjpnpupv.dpuf

Of course, 65Mustang, lots of other possibilities. But that is what was originally reported, by both the Malaysians and the Vietnamese?
 
sipadan
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:06 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:38 am

Quoting abba (Reply 79):
Actually, I think it is rather sensible for a politician not to give specific numbers or exact times in an interview. And she didn't get much furthe

And what say you as to why he couldn't confirm or deny whether or not his own ATC had tried to contact M9-MRO that morning? I don't see any specific numbers or times there. Only the MOST basic, FUNDAMENTAL and rudimentary question that could be possibly asked. This is the FIRST thing one would need to know ABOVE ALL ELSE, immediately. And 3 months later, he can't answer it. And you defend him. I feel sorry for you, truly.


Please, enlighten me once again with your preposterously irrational justifications. I mean, please tell me why he cannot answer THIS question? Thank you, Abba.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:57 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 80):
But if oral checking-in is still required, is it possible that MH370 crashed at that point - at 01.19.29 hrs. - and that the military radar went on tracking a different aeroplane?

As long as you declare the Inmarsat data as bogus, yes. Otherwise... a very big NO.
If they tracked a different airplane, it must have come from somewhere, given the location where MH370 disappeared, that "ghost plane" would have been tracked by the Vietnamese beforehand. No, there are no records of that "ghost aircraft".
And before you try, no, Inmarsat did not make mistake in its data coming from a different aircraft instead.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
Backseater
Posts: 478
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:20 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:57 pm

Penang to Mekar: 2 radars? or maybe just 1?
It is rather frustrating but IMO we cannot prune the tree of possibilities for the radar scenario because we miss one critical piece of data. Just one "corroborated" position with altitude around Pulau Perak would let us firm up the scenario.

Instead we are left with several candidate scenarios:
i) straight cruise from IGARI to somewhere around MEKAR, but why didn't the Thais and Indonesian radars collect lots of data, and if they did why do the Malaysians keep all that data secret? And if the data is "secret", why not put in the Prelim that the a/c was at approx 32,000ft near Pulau perak, for instance.
ii) one radar essentially at sea level at Butterworth AB. Could be the fixed one on a tower at Butterworth AB (that was my original scenario back in April). But RMAF has alos deployed a Thales-Raytheon phased array S-band GM400 that could be either fixed or mobile, location unknown.
iii) the track up to the white circle from a radar at Butterworth AB (the track appears just after exiting the shadow of Pulau Pinang) and the track after the white circle captured by the RAT-31 DL on top of Pulau Pinang after it is turned on.

I would like to add one more. The RAT-31 DL would capture the whole track shown on the radar plot. Why would the a/c only appear when it did, to the west of Pulau Pinang? There should not have been any shadowing issue.

I am suggesting the following:
- during the night at least, the antenna was not rotating. Because we can expect the phased array antenna to operate /- 60deg from boresight, the radar could just stare at the Straits with 120deg coverage in azimuth. Of course no tracking of target to the south or to the east in that case.
- the RAT-31DL can use complex pulses. According to some who had to deal with interferences in L-band coming from RAT-31 DL, the pulse could be as long as 800microsec. So when operating in that mode, the radar could be blind within a 67nm radius around the antenna. The a/c appears about 61nm from the radar antenna which might be the blind limit with a roughly 700microsec pulse.

Of course, the foregoing is totally hypothetical, based on conjectures rather than facts.
Just note that if the Pulau PInang radar were to be responsible for the whole radar plot, the a/c would most likely have had to drop to a very low altitude (approx 3,500ft) to explain the white circle.
 
Bronwyn
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:20 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:16 pm

Has anyone commented on this or it's significance/lack thereof? MAS 777-2H6(ER) stored in Tel Aviv, owned by GATelesis. Is the obvious idea to re-livery it with one of the Israeli airlines and add it to that fleet?

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...ng/777/28416,N105GT-GA-Telesis-php

I'm not a conspiracy theorist but TWA 800 made me think one can also be too naive, having been privy to more than one personal account of various and shocking situations surrounding it.

[Edited 2014-06-15 07:18:05]

You can see that 22 have been leased and only this one is stored (in Tel Aviv.)

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/GA-Telesis


[Edited 2014-06-15 07:20:42]
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting abba (Reply 79):
Quoting tailskid (Reply 78):
She wasn't asking him "exact numbers", she asked him what time he first heard about the missing airliner (there is a reason for that question.)

She also asked about speeds and flight levels as well and a few more things.

His reply to the question (not word for word) - "Why would you shoot down a non hostile plane?"

To which he replied (not word for word) - "America would!"

Was uncalled for and childish - especially accompanied by the cheeky look of his face...

This guy is a clown - all that is missing is the red nose  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 85):
As long as you declare the Inmarsat data as bogus, yes. Otherwise... a very big NO.
If they tracked a different airplane, it must have come from somewhere,

I've had some experience with radar, mandala499. But none with lnmarsat.

On present evidence MH370 'disappeared from radar' at 01.19.21hrs. - and was not re-acquired? That strongly suggests that it crashed - after less than an hour's flying?

I know next to nothing about Inmarsat - but, as far as I know, it only collects 'pings' once an hour, and it is not capable of determining whether the 'target' is travelling north or south?

Please provide details of Inmarsat's 'observations' during the period concerned, and we can continue the discussion?

[Edited 2014-06-15 08:04:09]
 
Starglider
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 12:19 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 88):
Was uncalled for and childish - especially accompanied by the cheeky look of his face...

And gloatingly glancing at someone else to the left of him in the room after he said it . . . .Just wondering, what made him give such a childish reply to a fair question from her and what was going on in his mind for those few seconds . . .
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:19 pm

Quoting Starglider (Reply 90):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 88):
Was uncalled for and childish - especially accompanied by the cheeky look of his face...

And gloatingly glancing at someone else to the left of him in the room after he said it . . . .Just wondering, what made him give such a childish reply to a fair question from her and what was going on in his mind for those few seconds . . .

I wonder the same. I doubt it was said out of the blue. Considering his quick response and body language I get the impression that it was either said to have a go at the US for whatever reason or to hint at something. I was surprised at the response as it was a fair question - like you said. Also, his response to the previous question kind of lead her to ask that question in a way - as if that is what he wanted her to ask so he could make that comment...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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777Jet
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RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:27 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):
I know next to nothing about Inmarsat - but, as far as I know
Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):
it is not capable of determining whether the 'target' is travelling north or south?

There are sources (with a sound knowledge of Inmarsat) that propose that the pings include the lat / long of the aircraft. I don't know whether this is true or not (straw men - please take note of this part) or whether this is just part of a conspiracy but that does not seem too far fetched. If the pings usually include the aircraft's location then one can only wonder why Inmarsat does not include them in the data or pretend that the pings do not include such valuable information...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):

Please provide details of Inmarsat's 'observations' during the period concerned, and we can continue the discussion?

You have asked about 15 times, and details have been provided each time - see for example Part 66 of this thread.

Kindly stop wasting everyone's time.

Let's all stop feeding - please?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
jox
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:39 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):
On present evidence MH370 'disappeared from radar' at 01.19.21hrs. - and was not re-acquired? That strongly suggests that it crashed - after less than an hour's flying?

NAV30. Yo say that you have experience with radar. And still not being able to understand the difference between primary and secondary radar!?! Yes MH370 disappeared from secondary radar. But since that is dependent on some onboard electronics to work, it doesn't at all suggest it crashed there and then. Especially not since we have strong indications from primary radar tracks.

Get it?
 
mandala499
Posts: 6592
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):
I've had some experience with radar, mandala499. But none with lnmarsat.

Sure... but you understand the following:

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):
I know next to nothing about Inmarsat - but, as far as I know, it only collects 'pings' once an hour, and it is not capable of determining whether the 'target' is travelling north or south?

As far as the discussions with you are concerned, I don't bloody care whether it went north, or south... you
You know that it 'collects' pings once an hour...
And the pings went on for a few more hours...
So why are you still proposing that it crashed when it disappeared from radar...

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 89):
Please provide details of Inmarsat's 'observations' during the period concerned, and we can continue the discussion?

Please provide your reasoning why you accept that the pings went on for hours, and that despite that the aircraft can continue, then, we can continue the discussion... otherwise all you're saying is, "I know one plus one equals two, but since I don't know how it happens, therefore, based on my experience of 2+1 = 3, therefore, I must apply 1+1 = 3"...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
CBRboy
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:03 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 93):
You have asked about 15 times, and details have been provided each time - see for example Part 66 of this thread.

Kindly stop wasting everyone's time.

Let's all stop feeding - please?
Quoting jox (Reply 94):
Get it?
Quoting mandala499 (Reply 95):
And the pings went on for a few more hours...
So why are you still proposing that it crashed when it disappeared from radar...

Kaiarahi is right. Please, please, please everyone, stop feeding the troll. He/she is only interested in receiving attention and causing controversy and disruption. Just ignore the posts.
 
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777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting CBRboy (Reply 96):
Just ignore the posts.

that don't get deleted...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
fooflyboy
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:15 am

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting nupogodi (Reply 38):
KISS actually means "Keep it simple, stupid!"

I think I see where all the misunderstanding lies.

In this context KISS actually stands for Keep InSiSting.
 
Antidote
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:15 pm

RE: Malaysia Airlines B772 Missing Enroute KUL-PEK Part 67

Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:42 am

At the risk of sounding fawning, I'd like to add a word of appreciation for the continued interest, effort and energy of the folks who have the expertise to carry this discussion through 67 threads and counting. I'm sure there are lots of people in the broader aviation community - like myself - who can't add value to the discussion but find it compelling reading that has become part of everyday life. Thank you all!

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