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Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:50 am
by EK413
Hi All,

With the previous thread reaching 250+ responses and slow to load for some users, thought it'll be a wise decision to have it locked for further comments.

Please feel free to continue your discussion in this thread whilst Part 9 can be found here:

Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Pt. 9 (by SA7700 Feb 18 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy the forums!

EK413

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:20 pm
by 2travel2know2
Has PHX already had talks w/ AV (SAL-PHX) and/or CM (PTY-PHX)?

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:26 pm
by Osubuckeyes
Responding to post 254 in the last thread
"Is it feasible for US to fly some seasonal routes to ski destinations such as ASE, EGE, or JAC even if it's less then daily?"

One of the problems is that there is not a huge amount of O&D from PHX to those destinations and from the East coast ORD and DFW are unquestionably better connecting points. I know it is anecdotal, but most people I know either just fly to DEN and drive or just drive from PHX. IIRC, HP flew to both ASE and EGE and that ended either after the merger or when they lost the Dashs. They do however serve DRO and Grand Junction from PHX.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:47 pm
by aztrainer
"The Mesa Police helicopter does many touch an goes at KCHD, they are lucky that they were able to land safely in an open field, I think that its just a matter of time before one of the R22 or R44s from the Quantum Helicopter training school goes down in one of the surrounding neighborhoods around the Chandler Airport."

I agree and with the construction around the airport they are losing more and more of their available emergency landing area. Some of the approaches that you see from the flight training going on at CHD can have you scratching your head.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-plane-land-phoenix-abrk/10317285/

Saw this on the news this morning and just laughed when they said that the operations at the field are back to normal. It was a diversion due to a passenger not a crash or disabled aircraft on the runway.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:31 pm
by mountainwest90
Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 2):

If they run a less then daily service I could see it working. Giving the fact that these cities are also stations for AA it could help reduce startup cost by using all AA service and equipment.

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 3):
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...-plane-land-phoenix-abrk/10317285/

Saw this on the news this morning and just laughed when they said that the operations at the field are back to normal. It was a diversion due to a passenger not a crash or disabled aircraft on the runway.

Funny that this story makes the news but not the 777 that landed a couple weeks ago for the same reason in the middle of the day.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 1):
Has PHX already had talks w/ AV (SAL-PHX) and/or CM (PTY-PHX)?

I see neither of these routes as feasible. But if I choose one it would be CM to PTY. There would need to be incentives and some serious advertising. I'm not sure there is very many people with connections to Panama or points onward to South America that could make this route work.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:48 pm
by PHX787
How many flights a day does that one airpark near Chandler Mall have? I'm thinking about doing some spotting near there when I get back to the states.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:25 pm
by redflyer
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
How many flights a day does that one airpark near Chandler Mall have? I'm thinking about doing some spotting near there when I get back to the states.

Are you talking about Stellar Air Park? So far as I know it's a privately owned airport. You can fly into it, but it has a lot of restrictions. There is not a lot of traffic in there, but what they have is definitely interesting as I've seen several vintage aircraft flying out of there in the past. The most fascinating aspect of it are the hangar'd homes that are part of the airpark. I took a tour through a couple of them when they were being built about ten years ago and I would have given my up my grandmother to be able to have bought one of them.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:29 pm
by phxpilot
Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 2):
HP flew to both ASE and EGE and that ended either after the merger or when they lost the Dashs. They do however serve DRO and Grand Junction from PHX.

When I flew the Dash-8 for HP (YV) our routes ex PHX included DRO, TEX, MTJ, GJT, GUC, ASE, EGE, and HDN.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:31 pm
by cageyjames
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
How many flights a day does that one airpark near Chandler Mall have? I'm thinking about doing some spotting near there when I get back to the states.

During the week not many but on the weekends you can see some really great planes. Everything from biplanes to B-17s show up sometimes. I'm not sure if there is a schedule anywhere though.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:45 pm
by aztrainer
Quoting redflyer (Reply 6):
The most fascinating aspect of it are the hangar'd homes that are part of the airpark. I took a tour through a couple of them when they were being built about ten years ago and I would have given my up my grandmother to be able to have bought one of them.

Before they put up the wall you could see a lot of the planes there. One of the houses has two T-6's and a Stearman. I have driven own Chandler Blvd and was buzzed by the P-51 that was there also. Unfortunately it was the one that crashed and killed the pilot in 2010.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...shes-chandler-stellar-airpark.html

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:53 pm
by mountainwest90
Does anybody see any chance of a specialized cargo company setting up shop in PHX? I don't think in all the threads I've ever seen the possibility of this happening or being discussed.

On a related note, does anyone know how much cargo BA carries to/from PHX?

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:37 am
by atcsundevil
Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 10):
Does anybody see any chance of a specialized cargo company setting up shop in PHX? I don't think in all the threads I've ever seen the possibility of this happening or being discussed.

I suppose anything is possible. I'm not sure exactly what sort of specialized cargo they would carry that would make PHX and ideal base, so unless the cargo is either of local origin or destination, I don't know what would make PHX stand out over any other major airport. It also wouldn't likely have access to the newer South Cargo facilities, which means it would have to use the aging East Cargo complex, which could be a drawback. I'm also not sure of how much additional capacity is available in East Cargo, but my understanding is that South Cargo has been maxed out since it was built. Another detriment is that the summer heat could affect their operations depending on the aircraft they'd acquire and the cargo they'd intend to carry. Even an 11,500ft runway isn't enough for some aircraft in 115°+ temps.

Having said that, anything is possible with enough money and desire, I just don't know if the demand exists on a consistent basis.

I don't have any info on BA cargo, but my understanding is that they operate the 747 in large part due to the cargo capacity they carry, which would indicate they do quite well on their cargo loads. That's purely conjecture though, but I'm sure someone else here has some more concrete information.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:53 am
by aztrainer
Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 10):
Does anybody see any chance of a specialized cargo company setting up shop in PHX? I don't think in all the threads I've ever seen the possibility of this happening or being discussed.

Well we have DHL (767), UPS (MD-11, 767, 757), FedEx (DC-10, MD-11, A-300, 757) and Ameriflight all at KPHX, but as atcsundevil said it is maxed out. We get seasonal 747's during the winter cargo rush. With the location of KPHX at the junction of I-10, AZ-51, 202, and I-17 is very beneficial.

I have always thought that a good shipping location would/could be IWA, but with Amazon and a lot of the other major shippers located in the west valley that would be a longer transition than just going to KPHX.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:19 am
by atcsundevil
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 12):
I have always thought that a good shipping location would/could be IWA

Absolutely. IWA has huge cargo potential, but the problem is that it isn't as centrally located. I think that in another decade or so, that potential will begin to be realized...not least of which because PHX is pretty much out of options for additional cargo facilities and aprons. A large company (like Amazon fulfillment, for example) would have more than enough space to construct a massive fulfillment facility in conjunction with an airport cargo facility and ramp at IWA with direct access to the Loop 202, US 60, and the new SR 24. It has a hell of a lot of potential to be an efficient all-in-one facility with ease of access to 3/4 or more of the valley's population.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:43 am
by DiamondFlyer
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 12):
Well we have DHL (767), UPS (MD-11, 767, 757), FedEx (DC-10, MD-11, A-300, 757) and Ameriflight all at KPHX

Don't forget about Empire, they do feed for FedEx, while Ameriflight feeds UPS & DHL.

-DiamondFlyer

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:11 pm
by aztrainer
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 13):
Absolutely. IWA has huge cargo potential, but the problem is that it isn't as centrally located. I think that in another decade or so, that potential will begin to be realized...not least of which because PHX is pretty much out of options for additional cargo facilities and aprons. A large company (like Amazon fulfillment, for example) would have more than enough space to construct a massive fulfillment facility in conjunction with an airport cargo facility and ramp at IWA with direct access to the Loop 202, US 60, and the new SR 24. It has a hell of a lot of potential to be an efficient all-in-one facility with ease of access to 3/4 or more of the valley's population.

I never of really thought of it that way, but that would be a really smart plan. Amazon (or any other large distribution center) would just need to have a UPS or FedEx plane at IWA/AZA just for their needs and that would eliminate out the need for any ground transportation at all.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 14):
Don't forget about Empire, they do feed for FedEx, while Ameriflight feeds UPS & DHL.

Thank you, I did forget about Empire.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:58 pm
by DiamondFlyer
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 15):
Amazon (or any other large distribution center) would just need to have a UPS or FedEx plane at IWA/AZA just for their needs and that would eliminate out the need for any ground transportation at all.

Amazon has no need to, they're setting up centers nearly everywhere these days. The only places it makes sense to set up close to an airport would be the main cargo hubs (MEM, SDF, IND, ONT) to allow you to send stuff anywhere quickly. Doing it at PHX where the only places that cargo comes in from being ONT, SDF, RFD, IND, MEM doesn't make a lot of sense. But crazier things have happened.

-DiamondFlyer

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:39 pm
by atcsundevil
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
Amazon has no need to

I think we were both referring to companies like Amazon, but maybe not Amazon specifically...companies with huge fulfillment needs and a need to send and receive large amounts of air cargo. Once UPS and/or FedEx begin service to IWA, it would be the the perfect location for a multi-purpose distribution center. Right now, most companies split those duties among two, three, or more geographically separated facilities because most airports don't have the ability to host such a massive complex. IWA can. It would be hugely attractive to a large company if and when those cards fall into place.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:43 pm
by DiamondFlyer
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 17):
Once UPS and/or FedEx begin service to IWA, it would be the the perfect location for a multi-purpose distribution center.

I wasn't aware there are any plans to do so, are there? And why would UPS and/or Fedex leave South Cargo, it's a great complex they've got going on. I could see DHL moving, but not the big 2.

-DiamondFlyer

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:34 pm
by atcsundevil
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):

No, no plans to do so, but in another decade I think it's a real possibility. All of this is speculation, but given IWA's cargo potential and the fact that PHX is completely landlocked and all but out of space, the first thing to go will be cargo. IWA is less geographically centralized, but the costs will be lower, they'll have less traffic to work around, and they'll have room for expansion of their operations. PHX is completely maxed-out in terms of cargo, so whenever the big two want to expand, they're pretty limited on options.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:48 am
by PHX Flyer
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 19):
No, no plans to do so, but in another decade I think it's a real possibility ... PHX is completely maxed-out in terms of cargo, so whenever the big two want to expand, they're pretty limited on options.

In another decade ... and another universe perhaps. In the unlikely event that PHX were to run out of cargo space, it would make more sense to move the Air National Guard to IWA. Even that would not be necessary, if the space between the two major runways were better utilized - less than half of that area is actually occupied by passenger facilities.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:35 am
by atcsundevil
Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 20):
In the unlikely event that PHX were to run out of cargo space

What you should realize is that they are out of cargo space, as referenced above by both myself and Aztrainer. South Cargo is built out as large as it'll ever get, and East Cargo is not in the long-term plan, which means it'll eventually be demolished.

Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 20):
In the unlikely event that PHX were to run out of cargo space, it would make more sense to move the Air National Guard to IWA.

You make that sound so easy and uncomplicated.   

You are implying that PHX has a say in this. Which they do not. At all. Only Congress can make the decision to close or move a DoD facility. That process alone would take a minimum of a decade after making a BRAC list, and it could be 10-15 years before a new theoretical cargo building were opened in its stead if they made the list today. It definitely won't make the next BRAC cycle (which I believe is next year), so that means they'd have to wait until 2025. They *might* have a new cargo building opened by 2035 if they started pursuing it now.

They'd have to wait for a BRAC list because they aren't just moving airplanes. They'd have to convince Congress to spend upwards of $150m on a new complex they already have with no reason to replace, they'd have to construct a new dedicated hangar with specialized engine shop at IWA, then the city could demolish the PHX facility and replace it with something new.

AZANG is going nowhere.

Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 20):
Even that would not be necessary, if the space between the two major runways were better utilized - less than half of that area is actually occupied by passenger facilities.

And where would you decide for this mythical space between the runways to come from? The plot west of T2 is slated for the future West Terminal. As a 30 gate future-proofed terminal, it will replace the existing East Cargo and encompass nearly all of the plot in its place with new RON aprons. That leaves no room for any sort of reasonably-sized cargo facility.

The majority of the north side of the airport is under a 100-year lease by Honeywell. The remaining space would be possible, but it would destroy the city's hope of ever constructing the fourth runway they so desire. That hope for a fourth runway means that nothing new will ever be built north of 8/26.

There is no room on the south side apart from the current structures, of which there simply will not be any ownership changes, and the Salt River cannot be encroached upon as it is required in its entirety for water retention.


You can't look at Google Earth and think you understand the complexity of the situation that exists. Just because it looks like there's open land or the city can just take property from people doesn't make it so. PHX is in a position of more passenger terminal space OR more cargo space, because there isn't room for both. Everything they have said indicates their priority is the former.

Cargo will eventually go to IWA, I assure you. It may take 10 or 15 years, but it will absolutely happen in this universe.  

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:26 pm
by aztrainer
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 16):
Amazon has no need to, they're setting up centers nearly everywhere these days.
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 17):
I think we were both referring to companies like Amazon, but maybe not Amazon specifically...companies with huge fulfillment needs and a need to send and receive large amounts of air cargo.

Agree that Amazon is constructing Distribution Centers everywhere, but I was just using them as an example for any large retailer.

See -

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 15):
Amazon (or any other large distribution center)

The problem with KPHX is that there is no place to go with expansion. Also you need to worry about the NIMBY people in Tempe and Phoenix about dual take offs. Phoenix metro area is growing and going to need more cargo ops. IF and I say IF IWA/AZA give FedEx or UPS a screaming deal, I can see them moving. Will it happen in the next five years, NIMHO, but some ops will move to IWA/AZA. It may just be one of the two big moves. The vacation of the space at KPHX will allow the one that stays to grow and the other would have a blank slate out at IWA/AZA. I can see IWA/AZA being a lot like ONT in the LA area.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:40 pm
by mountainwest90
Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 20):
if the space between the two major runways were better utilized - less than half of that area is actually occupied by passenger facilities.

I'm going to agree with this. There is plenty of under-utilized area between the runways. More of it could be maximized for airside operations. I don't know what the master plan calls for but after the Sky Train is completed and Terminal 2 is demolished I don't see much need for West Economy or for the Terminal 2 parking garage. Apron space could even be expanded out west as far as 24th street, that is, depending on the status of the LSG building.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
The plot west of T2 is slated for the future West Terminal. As a 30 gate future-proofed terminal, it will replace the existing East Cargo and encompass nearly all of the plot in its place with new RON aprons.

Again I'm not 100% familiar with the master plan but I don't see much need for a West Terminal for a long time. Phoenix is a suburban metropolis and there will be a critical mass where people develop out so far that airports such as IWA/AZA gain more traffic because they will be more convenient. Now maybe this trend will change, whether it be from a change in lifestyle or for a need in water conservation, and Phoenix will become a more Urban in which case PHX will see more traffic. Once we see how much US draws down at PHX then will we see what passenger traffic demands. Heck Terminal 3 might become surplus at that point and all traffic could fit in Terminal 4, but IMHO it wont get to that point.

Even with a future West Terminal, if the plans call for it to be laid out and designed like Terminal 4, I see room for a new modern West Cargo area.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:25 pm
by atcsundevil
Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 23):
There is plenty of under-utilized area between the runways.

Like I said, just because it looks like there's space on Google Earth does not mean it isn't spoken for in the Master Plan. The area between the runways is and must be designated for passenger terminal use to cope with future expansion. Adding new cargo space in place of passenger terminal space is far less profitable for the airport over the long term, with far less growth potential. Cargo operations worldwide are virtually stagnant -- and have been for several years in most regions -- but passenger operations will most definitely be expanding rapidly throughout the 2020s and beyond. It is already picking up post-recession and and post-mergers (although passenger numbers relative to aircraft movements hasn't been equal due to capacity contractions), but that growth will continue to accelerate over the next several years.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 23):
Again I'm not 100% familiar with the master plan

I am. The open space is designated for the West Terminal regardless of your beliefs on its merits, because it will be needed in the future. At this point, it is slated for no earlier than 2030 (last I heard) due to the T3S addition. Because the terminal will be 30 gates and future-proofed to likely double in size or more, it will encompass all of the area on the existing East Cargo west of the existing T2. There are more imminent plans for a fourth north/south taxiway in that area as well (Taxiway Uniform), and ultimately I believe there are plans for a fifth with the West Terminal. There is no plan for additional or replacement cargo facilities anywhere between the runways.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 23):
Terminal 3 might become surplus at that point and all traffic could fit in Terminal 4, but IMHO it wont get to that point.

T3 absolutely will not become surplus. They are currently in the process of expanding the south pier by four or five gates to replace T2 around 2020. There is no chance they would spend $80-100m to expand T3S only to close it as surplus. The new AA will likely shrink operations somewhat in the near-term, but any gaps will be filled by other carriers. In the long-term, passenger numbers will definitely outgrow the future two-terminal situation and will necessitate a West Terminal in about 20 years.

You need to think in the long-term with 30-year master plans. Think about the extreme growth in the valley from 1985 to today. The population of the Phoenix MSA has more than doubled in that time. Growth at PHX will certainly not double, but traffic will increase significantly to keep pace. It will require a new terminal in the long-term.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:32 pm
by mountainwest90
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 24):

Is there a place to find the master plan? I'd like to see it so I can familiarize myself.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:42 pm
by PHX Flyer
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
You make that sound so easy and uncomplicated.

Isn't that something?  
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
What you should realize is that they are out of cargo space, as referenced above by both myself and Aztrainer.

I appreciate your opinion on this matter, but why exactly should I use you or any one else here on a message board as a reference? I do not get the idea that you have any data at hand to back your claims.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
East Cargo is not in the long-term plan

Where exactly is the East Cargo area? I did not even know of any cargo facilities on the eastside ...

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
You are implying that PHX has a say in this. Which they do not. At all. Only Congress can make the decision to close or move a DoD facility.

The Air National Guard is under the jurisdiction of the Governor of Arizona.


Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
The plot west of T2 is slated for the future West Terminal. As a 30 gate future-proofed terminal,

The West Terminal is no longer part of the master plan In my opinion it was ill-conceived from the beginning, and I am secretly glad the plans got scrapped - but that's a topic for a different discussion.
Now, part of the West cargo area is in the way of two planned parallel taxiways which would link north and south runways on the westside. But even if they were built there would still be plenty of space between there and 24th Street.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
You can't look at Google Earth and think you understand the complexity of the situation that exists.

I beg to differ. Satellite imagery is used for the planning of military operations, Mars expeditions, etc. It sure works to find suitable terrain for a freight hall. But I did not stop at Google Earth ...

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 21):
Cargo will eventually go to IWA, I assure you. It may take 10 or 15 years, but it will absolutely happen in this universe.

There is little doubt that IWA will also grow. However, most of the growth will happen at Sky Harbor: the cargo volume at PHX is expected to double to over 400 metric tons within the next twenty years, and the airport has sufficient reserves to accommodate that growth.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:41 am
by atcsundevil
Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 26):
I appreciate your opinion on this matter, but why exactly should I use you or any one else here on a message board as a reference? I do not get the idea that you have any data at hand to back your claims.

Then nothing I say nor the experience I have will sway you anyway no matter what I provide. If you aren't going to believe anyone with something to contribute to this board, then I'm not sure why you participate. After this post, I won't use any more effort responding to you since you've made it clear you aren't interested in the knowledge and insight I offer.

Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 26):
Where exactly is the East Cargo area? I did not even know of any cargo facilities on the eastside ...

A look at the FAA airport diagram will answer your question.

Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 26):
The Air National Guard is under the jurisdiction of the Governor of Arizona.

Yes, but it is still a DoD facility. Just like the airplanes belong to the USAF, so does the building. The state does not decide which aircraft are assigned to the ANG, nor the facilities and equipment they utilize. That is all controlled by the USAF/DoD, and a facility move or closure would have to be part of a BRAC list -- not a unilateral decision made on the local or state level.

That is still beside the point, because the AZANG has no incentive to move for the purposes of aiding the operations of the airport. They are at PHX for strategic purposes, and wouldn't relocate simply because the airport might like some more space. I have never once heard of a desire on the part of the city to attempt to relocate them.

Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 26):
The West Terminal is no longer part of the master plan

Incorrect. While it was indeed removed from the 15-year plan about five years ago, it does remain in the 30-year master plan.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 25):
Is there a place to find the master plan?

I just tried a quick a Google search and couldn't find anything. I had a copy of it from a presentation a while back, but I'm not sure where I put it so I could share it with you -- my apologies.

Here's a summary:

- The city hopes to build a fourth runway to the north of the current 8/26 (hence why the runways are not 7/25 L/R/C) to be called 8L/26R, while the current 8/26 would be renamed 8R/26L. There are numerous roadblocks in the way of this, not least of which is the lease held by Honeywell for a large portion of the north side of the airport. If they were to relocate, it would likely be to IWA, but everything I've ever heard is that they are not at all interested in moving. The bigger obstacle is the LOA between the cities of Phoenix and Tempe limiting departures of jet aircraft to one stream of traffic for noise abatement. That means that duel departure runways are meaningless unless Tempe agrees to revise the LOA -- which the have no incentive to do so. The City of Phoenix was stupid to sign that agreement. The only simultaneous departures currently allowed per the LOA must involve at least one aircraft being a non-jet type, referred by the PHX TRACON as a Type B or C aircraft. Two Type As (jet types) cannot depart simultaneously even though the current runway setup would allow for it.

- The last pier in T4D will be built out at some point (I believe D9-D16). That will max out T4.

- An expansion to T3S is currently in the works. It will be around five gates and will make T3S L-shaped. It will facilitate the closure of T2. Total project cost is pegged at $500mil and include a complete T3 revamp, including expanded security checkpoints, ticket counters, concessions, etc. It is due to be completed around 2020 More Info Here.

- The PHX Sky Train Phase II will be completed in the early 2020s, although I don't believe funding has yet been allocated. It will extend the line from T3 to the Consolidated Rental Car Center, completing the full line from the CONRAC to the Light Rail.

- Construction of a fourth north/south taxiway will take place sometime in the next 5-10 years (perhaps concurrent to or just after the T3 project). It will be built to the west of the current T2, to be called Taxiway Uniform. Eventually, a fifth will be constructed called Taxiway Victor.

- The proposed West Terminal is still in the long-term plan, but no earlier than 2030. It was originally slated for 2020 prior to the economic recession. It is a 30 gate terminal and was originally intended for Southwest, although I don't believe that's necessarily the case any longer. A determination to reconsider the feasibility of its construction will be made in about a decade.

I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but hopefully that helps.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:34 am
by treebeard787
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):
Quoting PHX+Flyer" class="quote" target="_blank">PHX Flyer (Reply 26):
I appreciate your opinion on this matter, but why exactly should I use you or any one else here on a message board as a reference? I do not get the idea that you have any data at hand to back your claims.

Then nothing I say nor the experience I have will sway you anyway no matter what I provide. If you aren't going to believe anyone with something to contribute to this board, then I'm not sure why you participate. After this post, I won't use any more effort responding to you since you've made it clear you aren't interested in the knowledge and insight I offer.

I have personally stopped trying to have any conversation with him, he simply will not accept the facts as they are.

I also agree with your thoughts, I think it's very possible that cargo ops will expand to IWA in the next 10-20 years.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:55 am
by mountainwest90
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):

First of thanks for the response. I can't believe they don't have the Master Plan published on their website as I too searched the web. Most airports love showing off what the future holds for an airport. Couple questions for you that might stretch your memory of the plan.

When was the current master plan adopted?
Is there a plan to make an airside connection between T4D and T4A like on the east side? It might not be possible with the parking garage there.
I'm assuming since they are updating T3S that T3 is part of the long term future of the airport
Has the sky train been planned for a future west terminal?

I'm just going to state my opinion on what should be done. Whether it's more cost effective I don't know but it makes sense to me.

T3S shouldn't be remodeled/rebuilt. They should take that project and put it into building T4D and move the T2 airlines over there temporarily, and by temporarily I mean 10-20 years. Build the West terminal near where T3 is and tear T3 down.

I believe this works better for multiple reasons:
Reduces terminals from 3 to 2, which could help costs.
Allows for better connections when interlining.
Could encourage growth from airlines when space isn't so limited at a curtain terminal.
better for commercial tenants airside because there wouldn't be as much lull in traffic when more airlines are operating together.

Obviously I'd be all for one terminal, or at least for every gate to be connected airside but that isn't possible.
Just my   

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:44 am
by aztrainer
Here is some information and diagrams about the expansion of T-3 that I found. I also saw the PP that they presented to the city council, but I could not find that information.

http://azbex.com/half-billion-for-sk...-3-modernization-project-imminent/

http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...to-expand-terminal-will-close.html

https://skyharbor.com/TerminalModernization/Default.html

https://skyharbor.com/about/airportDevelopment.html

This is the budget for the expansion project right now.
http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...ents/capital_budget/c9aviation.pdf

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
I believe this works better for multiple reasons:
Reduces terminals from 3 to 2, which could help costs.
Allows for better connections when interlining.
Could encourage growth from airlines when space isn't so limited at a curtain terminal.
better for commercial tenants airside because there wouldn't be as much lull in traffic when more airlines are operating together.

Once everything is done they will have two terminals as T-3 will extend to the west into the location where T-2 is right now. To move the T-2 airlines to T-4D would take quite a long time as it is not even built as well as WN owns the rights to the T-4S side of the airport. You have AS, UA and ZK and there is not available space to move them to either T-3 or T-4.

Is space at a premium yet at KPHX, yes and no, but it all depends on the time of the day.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):
The bigger obstacle is the LOA between the cities of Phoenix and Tempe limiting departures of jet aircraft to one stream of traffic for noise abatement. That means that duel departure runways are meaningless unless Tempe agrees to revise the LOA -- which the have no incentive to do so. The City of Phoenix was stupid to sign that agreement. The only simultaneous departures currently allowed per the LOA must involve at least one aircraft being a non-jet type, referred by the PHX TRACON as a Type B or C aircraft. Two Type As (jet types) cannot depart simultaneously even though the current runway setup would allow for it.

Totally agree with you on this one, but I have one question about this. Since Tempe is the one that wanted the single departure system, when planes are departing to the west can they have dual departures? I have lived here long enough to remember 727's and old loud 737-100's and 200's taking off simultaneously from 26 and 27.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 9:21 am
by PHX Flyer
Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
I can't believe they don't have the Master Plan published on their website as I too searched the web.

Sky Harbor does have the Airport Development Plan published:

http://skyharbor.com/about/airportDevelopment.html

You won't find the New Terminal West project on there, because that project was scrapped in 2007, because i t did not make sense. For one, Sky Harbor has been growing much slower than projected and secondly, the airlines opposed it.

Just ask yourself the simple question: which airline would want to use a new 30 gate terminal at Sky Harbor?
Would it make sense for US Airways to split their operation between two terminals on opposing ends of the field? Certainly not.

Would it make sense for Southwest to consider that option? Southwest currently has around 24 gates available, and can have another concourse added, even with their own FIS area if they wanted to. So, what sense would it make for Southwest to move to a new terminal of the same capacity? None at all, really, unless AA/US wanted the entire capacity of T4 for themselves. While I still believe that American will grow at Sky Harbor over time, I do not foresee them having a need for an additional 24-32 gates even within the next 20-30 years.

Now, the remaining major airlines combined currently have 23 gates available at T2 and T3, and that number would remain about he same once T3 is expanded and T2 closed. How likely is it that their operations would more than double within the next 20-30 years? Somehow I don't see that happening, especially since passenger volume has essentially stagnated at Sky Harbor for the last 5 years. United has actually shrunken quite a bit over the years.

So, in absence of any candidate that would grow in a 30-gate increment, there is no need for a new separate terminal in the foreseeable (=plannable) future.

Instead, capacity will be increased gradually:

1) About 8 additional gates at T4.

2) T3 South had 5 gates in operation up until AA's move to T4. With thee planned expansion there may be 12 new gates with jet bridges plus an unspecified number of RJ gates, which makes for a net gain of 7 full-sized gates. Since T2 is slated to be mothballed once that expansion project is complete, this by itself does not amount to significant net growth in capacity. However, If you look at the new layout of T3 South it becomes obvious that there are future plans to expand the concourse east of the new rotunda. Currently this space is occupied by a hangar, which could be removed if needed, and open up room for an additional 8-10 gates on the south side of T3.

3) There is also space for a second 10-gate concourse on the north side of T3.

4) Lastly, there are no plans to tear down T2. If any of the non-hubbing airlines at Sky Harbor (Jetblue, Frontier or Alaska) wanted to grow, T2 could be given a facelift and, voilà, you have at least another 8 gates available.

In summary, a net growth in capacity of approximately 35 gates can be accomplished through modifications and additions to the existing terminals, without the need to commit $2 billion at once for a new terminal that would essentially be a white elephant.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:49 am
by atcsundevil
Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 28):
I have personally stopped trying to have any conversation with him, he simply will not accept the facts as they are.

I also agree with your thoughts, I think it's very possible that cargo ops will expand to IWA in the next 10-20 years.

Well at least I'm not the only one! It only makes sense to transfer or expand some cargo ops at IWA. Given the vast amount of space available at IWA, it would be a waste not to take advantage of its potential -- which someone will at some point, likely as you say (and as I previously mentioned) 10-20 years. That is when IWA growth will begin to kick into another gear, particularly when they're able to construct their new north terminal complex.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
When was the current master plan adopted?

It's been revised multiple times in recent years. The last major revision was I believe around 2009, which pushed the West Terminal project back by at least a decade from its original target of 2020. Had the economic recession not occurred, things may still have been on track for the West Terminal, but obviously it did, and its effects on the industry and on Phoenix in particular were extreme. The last update was made within the last year or two, and that would have accounted for the relatively recently conceived T3S expansion project and a more accurate timeline for the T2 closure. The multitude of revisions have mainly stemmed from the city's general dithering and indecisiveness for the better part of a decade as to the future of T2, but now there is a concrete plan for its replacement. Sorry I can't be more specific with dates -- I was hoping someone else might remember so they could bail me out!

As a side note, the airport development plan posted by PHX Flyer is not a master plan (otherwise it would be named as such), and only accounts for projects in the short- and medium-term. He seems to take this as meaning the West Terminal project is off the table, which it is not. Master plans cover 0-5 years, 5-15 years, and 15-30 years. The development plan does not cover the long-term, and merely highlights the imminent projects in a readable manner for the average concerned citizen.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
Is there a plan to make an airside connection between T4D and T4A like on the east side? It might not be possible with the parking garage there.

I don't believe so. Given the relatively low crossover between A/B and C/D, the one airside connection should suffice. Even though T4 is a considered a single terminal, it may as well be two terminals sharing the same landside access, so the mere existence of an airside connection is a definite convenience over the other terminals, and proves that the city learned its lesson from the mistakes made with T2 and particularly T3.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
I'm assuming since they are updating T3S that T3 is part of the long term future of the airport

Yes. It will be around for the foreseeable future. Part of the half billion dollar budget (other than the expansion) includes a complete revamp of the entire terminal, including the north side. Its biggest impact will be an overall modernization and the expansion of the security checkpoints and ticket counters, which are obviously extremely cramped. The ticketing level improved when baggage screening finally moved to the basement with the installation of the new baggage matrix system, but moving the airlines over from T2 means they'll need additional counter space. The end product should look pretty good and will make the two terminal system at PHX effective for the next 15 years.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
Has the sky train been planned for a future west terminal?

Yes, the design incorporates a future station for the terminal. The original Phase II plan included the station construction in advance of the terminal, but I believe the plan now is design it so that when the terminal is built, the construction of the station won't require any alterations to the tracks.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 29):
I'm just going to state my opinion on what should be done. Whether it's more cost effective I don't know but it makes sense to me.

T3S shouldn't be remodeled/rebuilt. They should take that project and put it into building T4D and move the T2 airlines over there temporarily, and by temporarily I mean 10-20 years. Build the West terminal near where T3 is and tear T3 down.

I believe this works better for multiple reasons:
Reduces terminals from 3 to 2, which could help costs.
Allows for better connections when interlining.
Could encourage growth from airlines when space isn't so limited at a curtain terminal.
better for commercial tenants airside because there wouldn't be as much lull in traffic when more airlines are operating together.

Obviously I'd be all for one terminal, or at least for every gate to be connected airside but that isn't possible

My understanding is that moving the T2 tenants to T4D would cause some major issues with Southwest, not least of which because the T4D buildout is intended for them. The T3 modernization and expansion makes it a permanent fixture and will allow the airport to delay the opening of the West Terminal for another 15-20 years.

The primary reason they wouldn't want to construct it sooner is because of the significant cost incurred from the PHX Sky Train project. That project alone cost roughly 80% or more of the cost for a new 30 gate terminal. The T3 project is better than just a bandaid -- it's a complete overhaul -- and will extend the life of the terminal an additional 30-40 years. That, in combination with the completion of T4D, is a sensible approach to reduce costs from operating three terminals by operating two, and allowing them to financially prepare for the West Terminal expansion.

I understand your point of view, and I agree that basically an East Terminal and West Terminal would be a best case scenario. They just need to be very cost conscious. The total project costs from the start of the Sky Train project in 2008 through its completion as well as the completion of the T3 modernization in 2020 likely exceed $2.5bil. T4D completion and the T3 expansion buy them enough time to service debts and properly prepare for the next step.

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 30):
Totally agree with you on this one, but I have one question about this. Since Tempe is the one that wanted the single departure system, when planes are departing to the west can they have dual departures? I have lived here long enough to remember 727's and old loud 737-100's and 200's taking off simultaneously from 26 and 27.

Technically they could, but since all departures in both flows are based off of the PXR VOR, it isn't possible. The LOA only prevents them from having simultaneous departures in east flow, and mandates that east and west flow are evenly split 50/50 regardless of operational efficiencies. Until departures are independent from the PXR VOR, they won't be simultaneous in any flow.

A series of RNAV departure procedures do exist that would allow for this, but most aren't in use due to reasons (all of which are stupid). Since they were fairly poorly conceived in the first place, they've basically been abandoned. There were plans to create a new set after the somewhat recent optimization of the RNAV arrivals (which are excellent by the way, and have received national awards recognizing their design efficiency), but I know for a fact that no further progress has been made, and there likely won't be for the foreseeable future due to other priorities. IWA will likely have a commonly used RNAV departure published before PHX, and I only know that because I created the initial design for it.

Having said that, the need for simultaneous departures isn't really pressing. Because PHX is almost always in VFR conditions with 95% of the aircraft being "Large", Ground controllers only need to sequence the departures taxiing to the runway so there are alternating north and south departures. This allows most aircraft to depart when the preceding aircraft is 6,000ft down the runway and rotating. It requires much less runway occupancy time than arrivals, hence the absolute need for simultaneous arrivals, but no real need for simultaneous departures. Yet.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:48 pm
by cageyjames
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 32):
My understanding is that moving the T2 tenants to T4D would cause some major issues with Southwest, not least of which because the T4D buildout is intended for them.

Interesting, it was explained to me that T4D buildout was going to be commuter in nature. But that was a couple years ago I heard that. I'm not sure it's needed by either US/AA or WN at this point so it's probably open to it's use. I suppose if International flights continue to grow and AA expands at PHX, that could be the thinking of making it "RJ friendly". I'm sure WN would have to sign off on it as I suspect they have first right of refusal.

My expectation is that AA will be fine with all the gates up north and WN doesn't need any expansion for Terminal 4. If this concourse gets built, it will probably be done by the city.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:04 pm
by chrisair
God. Y'all are one passionate bunch.  

In this week's installment of wacky Arizona news: there will be a public meeting, held by state sen. Kelli Ward (R-Dist. 5) in Kingman this Wednesday (6/25) to discuss chemtrails. If anyone is around, they should go. Sadly I'll be chemtrailing over Kingman that morning. http://www.havasunews.com/news/ward-...a-f83d-11e3-8406-001a4bcf887a.html

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):
The PHX Sky Train Phase II will be completed in the early 2020s, although I don't believe funding has yet been allocated. It will extend the line from T3 to the Consolidated Rental Car Center, completing the full line from the CONRAC to the Light Rail.

They absolutely need to get this up and running. I don't rent cars here (thank god) but the lines downstairs at T4 are awful and the reduction in bus traffic will make life easier for those of us who need to access the 51 from the east side of the airport. Construction will be a nightmare though for the west side of the airport.

For all the cost overruns, construction nightmares etc, the Sky Train is probably the best thing PHX has added. It really makes life painless for those of us who go from east economy to T4. I'm convinced most of the critics you hear on the news have never traveled before in their life. Or at least never had the pleasure of taking the bus from the parking lot to the terminal at 7a on a Monday. It was like an Indian train where people have to sit on top of the cars because it's so crowded.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 32):
There were plans to create a new set after the somewhat recent optimization of the RNAV arrivals (which are excellent by the way, and have received national awards recognizing their design efficiency),

Out of curiosity, I know some pilots have complained about the arrivals at PHX, saying they're not allowing planes to break off the pattern during light traffic times (i.e. late at night). I know lots of times my late night arrivals from the north are relegated onto rwy 26 forcing us to taxi all over the airport to get to the gate. You know if the controllers are willing to let planes break off the RNAV arrivals during light traffic times? It seems I'm about 30% for my 10p-12a arrivals landing on 25R/L. The rest of the time I'm stuck on the north side of the airport.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:55 pm
by atcsundevil
Quoting cageyjames (Reply 33):
Interesting, it was explained to me that T4D buildout was going to be commuter in nature.

I haven't heard that one. I doubt it would have anything to do with RJs associated with AA or gate use for AA, because it would be pretty inconvenient for passengers. I'm not sure WN would want to give up its option to use the terminal whether the need it soon or not. Given their stagnant growth for the next couple of years, it's obvious it won't be needed sooner than the end of this decade, but after that, T3 will be complete and PHX may be gearing up for that as the next project. By that time, WN may be ready to expand, and may even be looking at int'l ops from PHX, so they might be interested in a T4D pier with FIS. Whether or not that's feasible is a different story, but the point is that there could be significant new market growth by WN in PHX's future.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 34):
They absolutely need to get this up and running. I don't rent cars here (thank god) but the lines downstairs at T4 are awful and the reduction in bus traffic will make life easier for those of us who need to access the 51 from the east side of the airport. Construction will be a nightmare though for the west side of the airport.

For all the cost overruns, construction nightmares etc, the Sky Train is probably the best thing PHX has added. It really makes life painless for those of us who go from east economy to T4. I'm convinced most of the critics you hear on the news have never traveled before in their life. Or at least never had the pleasure of taking the bus from the parking lot to the terminal at 7a on a Monday. It was like an Indian train where people have to sit on top of the cars because it's so crowded.

For sure. It's 100% necessary for the long-term of the airport. Now, I can argue that the problems that necessitate its construction should have never happened in the first place -- namely, the construction of three (technically four) independent terminals with no airside connection. It was simply old-fashioned thinking, and look at the cost to mend that.

When it comes to cost and cost overruns, I always want to punch my computer monitor every time I read the comments section on AZ Central to an article talking about the Sky Train. People will bitch incessantly that the city can't afford this, and they're raising taxes to do this, and so on...clearly they have no understanding of how airports operate, and that projects like this are self-sufficient. It's like NIMBYs. They just don't get it.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 34):
Out of curiosity, I know some pilots have complained about the arrivals at PHX, saying they're not allowing planes to break off the pattern during light traffic times (i.e. late at night). I know lots of times my late night arrivals from the north are relegated onto rwy 26 forcing us to taxi all over the airport to get to the gate. You know if the controllers are willing to let planes break off the RNAV arrivals during light traffic times? It seems I'm about 30% for my 10p-12a arrivals landing on 25R/L. The rest of the time I'm stuck on the north side of the airport.

Many if the "old school" controllers complain that the younger controllers are "RNAV babies", meaning that since they work RNAV arrivals all day, they aren't as good at vectoring (sort of like the ATC equivalent to cockpit automation). It definitely depends on the load the controller is working, since the sectors are combined into one or two positions later in the evening. Just because the pilot doesn't hear the traffic on frequency doesn't mean the controller doesn't have their hands full. They will vector them in plenty of cases or sometimes if the pilot requests. Breaking from the RNAV only saves a couple of minutes, so it isn't really that big of a deal. Pilots just don't always want to fly the full procedure.

As for the arrival runways -- RNAV arrivals and the runway in which you arrive are two separate things. If you arrive from the north, the TRACON will always set you up for 8/26, but the tower has the ability to side-step you to 7L/25R. If you don't get side-stepped, you know who to blame  

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:05 pm
by aztrainer
Quoting chrisair (Reply 34):
In this week's installment of wacky Arizona news: there will be a public meeting, held by state sen. Kelli Ward (R-Dist. 5) in Kingman this Wednesday (6/25) to discuss chemtrails. If anyone is around, they should go. Sadly I'll be chemtrailing over Kingman that morning. http://www.havasunews.com/news/ward-....html

Damn I would go BUT my tinfoil hat is at the cleaners. Is this the same Rep that two or three years ago when talking about CCW took out her semi-automatic and pointed it at a reporter?

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 32):
The LOA only prevents them from having simultaneous departures in east flow, and mandates that east and west flow are evenly split 50/50 regardless of operational efficiencies.

The only limitation to this is weather, correct? If, due to the prevailing wind, they have 75% of the departures out to the east would the next day or so they have to correct it by having 75% of T/O to the west? I am sorry if this is a stupid question, but it is something that I have wondered as I know about the 50/50 ratio of take-off.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:38 pm
by cageyjames
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 35):
I haven't heard that one. I doubt it would have anything to do with RJs associated with AA or gate use for AA, because it would be pretty inconvenient for passengers

Understand this was told to me back when US was expanding RJ service right after the merger. Clearly US moved away from that to larger aircraft so I'm sure the need isn't there.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 35):
By that time, WN may be ready to expand, and may even be looking at int'l ops from PHX, so they might be interested in a T4D pier with FIS. Whether or not that's feasible is a different story, but the point is that there could be significant new market growth by WN in PHX's future.

Interesting but I suspect they'd just add it to the high C pier given they can link it to the existing FIS on the high B. But the point is they'd have to add gates somewhere. Then again, if there isn't many international flights they can just arrive at the existing B gates and leave from the South.

It would be nice to see some competition to Mexico for US/AA that's for sure.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:47 pm
by atcsundevil
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 36):
Damn I would go BUT my tinfoil hat is at the cleaners.

LOL! Anyone who thinks of "chemtrails" as anything other than a hilarious joke is damaged. I won't even consider it a conspiracy theory, because at least conspiracy theories have some foundation in fact. I cannot believe an actual elected official is spending even one second of taxpayer dollars on this.

A friend of mine a few months ago read an article on chemtrails, and I honestly had to convince him that it wasn't real by texting my old college roommate (an FO for XJT) and asking where the chemtrail tank was on his E145. His response had me rolling on the floor because he got so pissed off that I thought he'd have aneurysm.

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 36):
The only limitation to this is weather, correct? If, due to the prevailing wind, they have 75% of the departures out to the east would the next day or so they have to correct it by having 75% of T/O to the west? I am sorry if this is a stupid question, but it is something that I have wondered as I know about the 50/50 ratio of take-off.

I think the 50/50 ratio just has to equal out over the span of a month. Obviously if winds favor one flow, that flow will be used, but when the winds are calm or don't favor a specific flow, they'll need to switch flows to even things out. It is completely ridiculous that the city allowed themselves to be baited into such an agreement.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:54 pm
by Osubuckeyes
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 38):
It is completely ridiculous that the city allowed themselves to be baited into such an agreement.

Does this agreement ever end? I remember Hugh Hullman (IIRC) the mayor of Tempe a few years back spoke to a club I was in and he mentioned this agreement and how stupid it was for Tempe as they are an equal beneficiary to the airport traffic. He admitted that pretty much the only reason it still exists is due to a core group of high profiled outspoken residents of Tempe.

Also, does the high B concourse have FIS the entire length or just at the end gates. I can't remember for the life of me since for some reason I haven't flown out of any B gate since 2005.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:02 pm
by mountainwest90
Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 39):
Also, does the high B concourse have FIS the entire length or just at the end gates. I can't remember for the life of me since for some reason I haven't flown out of any B gate since 2005.

Gates B22-B28 or every gate except B15-B21

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 37):
Interesting but I suspect they'd just add it to the high C pier given they can link it to the existing FIS on the high B.

How exactly would that work?

[Edited 2014-06-23 16:04:57]

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:05 pm
by DiamondFlyer
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 35):
If you arrive from the north, the TRACON will always set you up for 8/26, but the tower has the ability to side-step you to 7L/25R. If you don't get side-stepped, you know who to blame  

Unless you are flying something small, then they do some crazy vectors over the top and put people in sometimes, shall we say, questionable situations on how to get down and slow down quick enough.

-DiamondFlyer

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:12 pm
by aztrainer
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 38):
Obviously if winds favor one flow, that flow will be used, but when the winds are calm or don't favor a specific flow, they'll need to switch flows to even things out. It is completely ridiculous that the city allowed themselves to be baited into such an agreement.

Agree, I remember the old days and worked at 7th Ave and Grant and we could not turn on car alarms due to the sound from the old 737,727 and MD's would set them off all of the time. BUT the airport was there first and I just loved the planes. Now what gets me is I work at Mill and Broadway and you cannot hear most planes taking off. The days of the ground rumblers are over, unless there are military departures.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 38):
LOL! Anyone who thinks of "chemtrails" as anything other than a hilarious joke is damaged. I won't even consider it a conspiracy theory, because at least conspiracy theories have some foundation in fact. I cannot believe an actual elected official is spending even one second of taxpayer dollars on this.

A friend of mine a few months ago read an article on chemtrails, and I honestly had to convince him that it wasn't real by texting my old college roommate (an FO for XJT) and asking where the chemtrail tank was on his E145. His response had me rolling on the floor because he got so pissed off that I thought he'd have aneurysm.

I teach high school science and we talked about this and there were so many kids that bought into what was on the internet. I had to make a point so I go to this site http://www.dhmo.org/ and used it as a learning tool. By the end of the class I had 90% of the kids wanting to ban DHMO. Then I told them what it is.

Not everything you see on YouTube is real.

What is the reason why they are tearing up the concrete at T-4S? I have noticed this the last couple of times that I went spotting.

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 37):
Interesting but I suspect they'd just add it to the high C pier given they can link it to the existing FIS on the high B. But the point is they'd have to add gates somewhere. Then again, if there isn't many international flights they can just arrive at the existing B gates and leave from the South.

It would be nice to see some competition to Mexico for US/AA that's for sure.

I agree that it would be nice to see more traffic between Mexico and KPHX with WN and AA. The problem with WN is that they would probably have to go over to the B International Wing as there is none on T-4S. Also the T-4S wings are limited in space by the D taxiway. There are only 9 gates in T-4S (C wings) and there are 5 international gates on T-4N (B23-B28). The limitation is with Customs being located in the northern side of T-4.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:40 pm
by atcsundevil
Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 39):
Does this agreement ever end? I remember Hugh Hullman (IIRC) the mayor of Tempe a few years back spoke to a club I was in and he mentioned this agreement and how stupid it was for Tempe as they are an equal beneficiary to the airport traffic. He admitted that pretty much the only reason it still exists is due to a core group of high profiled outspoken residents of Tempe.

I'm not aware of an end date, but I did know that Tempe was strongly influenced by powerful residents. That shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Tempe profits indirectly from the airport massively, so any desire to hold the airport back makes zero sense.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 41):
Unless you are flying something small, then they do some crazy vectors over the top and put people in sometimes, shall we say, questionable situations on how to get down and slow down quick enough.

Well, if you're flying something small, you couldn't accept an RNAV arrival anyway. If they send you over the top, they're too busy on that side and trying to dump you off on another position. As for the questionable situations, I can't really comment on that!

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 42):
I teach high school science and we talked about this and there were so many kids that bought into what was on the internet. I had to make a point so I go to this site http://www.dhmo.org/ and used it as a learning tool. By the end of the class I had 90% of the kids wanting to ban DHMO. Then I told them what it is.

  

Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 42):
What is the reason why they are tearing up the concrete at T-4S? I have noticed this the last couple of times that I went spotting.

I'm not sure, but someone else might. I know some sections of the aprons around the airport have suffered from concrete cancer, so this could be related. Although the concrete there shouldn't be that old..

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:52 pm
by wn676
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 42):
What is the reason why they are tearing up the concrete at T-4S? I have noticed this the last couple of times that I went spotting.

The original PCC panels are failing prematurely from an alkali-silica reaction. From what I understand this only affects the apron dating back to the original construction of T4, and does not include the newer panels around N1 and S2 since a different design method was used to prevent this sort of failure.

[Edited 2014-06-23 16:53:32]

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:10 am
by wn676
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):
- Construction of a fourth north/south taxiway will take place sometime in the next 5-10 years (perhaps concurrent to or just after the T3 project). It will be built to the west of the current T2, to be called Taxiway Uniform. Eventually, a fifth will be constructed called Taxiway Victor.

Victor might happen sooner than that (Uniform will come later). The last that I heard was that they were looking to start construction by 2018.

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:06 am
by chrisair
Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 35):
Now, I can argue that the problems that necessitate its construction should have never happened in the first place -- namely, the construction of three (technically four) independent terminals with no airside connection. It was simply old-fashioned thinking, and look at the cost to mend that.

But remember, when they were building up PHX in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, a lot of airports were built like that. Look at LAX, SFO (until the intl terminal opened in 2000ish), JFK and so on. A lot of airports don't allow airside connections to all the terminals. Besides, the original idea was the stick light rail under T4 (except it would flood down there, apparently).

The Sky Train also serves the light rail (which had to stay away from the airport due to the aforementioned flooding and cost issues), the east economy parking lot and eventually that (horribly inconvenient) rental car place. So while you should probably only have one terminal station, they'd need something to get people to/from the other parts of the airport.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 35):
If you don't get side-stepped, you know who to blame  

I'll be sure to send my complaint letters to the right place now.  
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 42):
By the end of the class I had 90% of the kids wanting to ban DHMO. Then I told them what it is.

Won't someone please think of the children?!? DHMO needs to go!  
Quoting wn676 (Reply 44):
The original PCC panels are failing prematurely from an alkali-silica reaction.

Clearly from all the chemtrail solution they load onto planes.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 44):
From what I understand this only affects the apron dating back to the original construction of T4, and does not include the newer panels around N1 and S2 since a different design method was used to prevent this sort of failure.
Quoting Aztrainer (Reply 42):
What is the reason why they are tearing up the concrete at T-4S? I have noticed this the last couple of times that I went spotting.

It's been going on since February or March, I think. Is it only on the south side or will the north side be next?

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:54 am
by atcsundevil
Quoting wn676 (Reply 45):
Victor might happen sooner than that (Uniform will come later). The last that I heard was that they were looking to start construction by 2018.

Really? I'm not sure I've heard that -- or maybe I did and wasn't paying attention! Thanks for the update. I knew they were hoping to have it up in running around the T3 project completion, so a 2018 start date would put that right on track. I would assume it would take probably 10-14 months once they get started.

With all of the closures of the north/south taxiways over the past few years because of the Sky Train, ground controllers had some hurt put on them for quite a while...particularly about three or four years ago when all three runways alternated on 30-day closures for the installation of the runway status lights, and at the same time, Romeo was closed for the bridge install. I was up in the tower for a few weeks at that time working on a project, and over those weeks, things got so difficult that I watched few controllers rip their hair out during the morning rush, and a couple sorta screw the pooch in ground traffic management. In one instance they were using 8 for departures and 7R for landings while 7L was closed, and the lineup for departures extended the full length of Bravo to T4B and almost the full length of Charlie (before its extension was completed). Something like 60 or 70 aircraft waiting to depart. They had a lot of issues with arrivals being blocked from their gates by departures and vice versa due to limited taxiways available and only a couple of crossing points on 7L, which resulted in a lot of backtracking and U-turns. Not fun times in PHX ATCT.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 46):
But remember, when they were building up PHX in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, a lot of airports were built like that. Look at LAX, SFO (until the intl terminal opened in 2000ish), JFK and so on. A lot of airports don't allow airside connections to all the terminals. Besides, the original idea was the stick light rail under T4 (except it would flood down there, apparently).

The Sky Train also serves the light rail (which had to stay away from the airport due to the aforementioned flooding and cost issues), the east economy parking lot and eventually that (horribly inconvenient) rental car place. So while you should probably only have one terminal station, they'd need something to get people to/from the other parts of the airport.

Of course -- I just would have hoped for a little more forward thinking when T4 was constructed considering the scope of that project. Yes, it closed T1, but had they built out more of the piers during the initial construction (or perhaps even completed all eight), they could have closed T2 and potentially even T3. If they were prevented from doing that due to budget, that's one thing, but if there was a real opportunity to trim the airport to one or two terminals and they failed to take it, then it amounts to poor planning in my mind.

For a long time, more terminals was some sort of indicator as to the size and importance of the airport. Things moved away from that starting in the 90s, but PHX has been reluctant throughout to catch on. This T3 expansion project probably could have gotten started five or ten years ago at least, which would have allowed T2 to be vacated long ago and had a more efficient operation. They've wanted to close T2 for a long time, but they never took any concrete steps towards replacing the void until very recently.

The Sky Train obviously was a necessity, at the very least to link the airport to the Light Rail, just as the CONRAC is a necessity and an improvement on efficiency (even though it seems to not be your favorite thing!). PHX was at least ahead of the trend with the CONRAC, since operating rental car offices in every terminal (two of which are extremely strapped for space) is totally inefficient. It is a shame they had to build it so far from the airport, but that is a point of pride for the airport and a wise decision given the importance of tourism on the Valley. It blows for now having to take the bus, but the Terminal-APM-CONRAC journey from T4 or the soon-to-be modernized T3 will reflect well on the city from the airplane seat to car seat...until they get out of their rental car and feel the life-sucking heat for the first time, anyway.

Obviously most of what I said is meaningless and is full of "coulda, shoulda, woulda", but it doesn't mean I can't still be a douche and armchair quarterback the whole thing like any good citizen of this forum. My gripe is that a lot of poor design decisions were made over the years, and now the city is paying the price in inefficiency and huge construction costs. They know it, so it's not like it's a revelation to them or to anyone, but my hope is that the stupid decisions are finished.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 46):
Clearly from all the chemtrail solution they load onto planes.

Don't give the tin foil crowd any ideas!

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:54 pm
by Maverick623
Quoting chrisair (Reply 34):
Kelli Ward (R-Dist. 5) in Kingman this Wednesday (6/25) to discuss chemtrails

Oh, the town that competes with AJ and Prescott for highest rates of meth usage? And they're worried about contrails?

RE: Phoenix/Arizona Aviation Thread Part 10

Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:58 pm
by cageyjames
Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 40):
How exactly would that work?

A bridge of course, I just can't see them building FIS on the south side for a couple flights.

Quoting MountainWest90 (Reply 40):
How exactly would that work?

A bridge. I just can't see them building FIS on the south side for a couple flights. I suspect that WN will just use the high B gates for international service.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 44):
From what I understand this only affects the apron dating back to the original construction of T4, and does not include the newer panels around N1 and S2 since a different design method was used to prevent this sort of failure.

Bids are out for completing the work on the north side.