Emirates Helping Airbus Sell A380's In The US

metalinyoni · Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:46 pm

Just saw this article:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews

Quote: Emirates airline and aircraft leasing company Amedeo teamed up on Thursday in a charm offensive to sell U.S. airlines on the world's biggest jetliner, the Airbus A380.

Why would Emirates do this as they are basically improving the quality of the competition?

The cynic in me would say that they are trying to sell planes they have ordered but no longer needed but considering they only ordered more last year thats hardly the case. Are they trying to create a market for the frames that will leave the fleet first?

phxa340 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting metalinyoni (Thread starter):
Why would Emirates do this as they are basically improving the quality of the competition?

The more customers for the A380 = the more $$ and development Airbus will spend on the product improving it for EK.

Quoting metalinyoni (Thread starter):
leasing company Amedeo

I find it interesting that they have placed 0 frames so far and JL said that if they didn't find buyers they could defer the orders - doesn't reek of confidence.

Quoting metalinyoni (Thread starter):
harm offensive to sell U.S. airlines on the world's biggest jetliner, the Airbus A380.

This has a good of chance of happening as Boeing selling 748s to EK.

Stitch · Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting metalinyoni (Thread starter):
Why would Emirates do this as they are basically improving the quality of the competition?

As the largest A380 operator, Emirates will benefit from more A380s in service as it reduces production costs, reduces the cost of ancillaries like training and spares and strengthens the model's value in financing markets, lowering borrowing and leasing costs for the type.

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting metalinyoni (Thread starter):
Quote: Emirates airline and aircraft leasing company Amedeo teamed up on Thursday in a charm offensive to sell U.S. airlines on the world's biggest jetliner, the Airbus A380.

Ha. Talk about a lost cause but whatever turns them on... I thought Amedeo already had customers lined up?

ytz · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Talk about a lost cause but whatever turns them on...

I wonder why used A380s wouldn't see more demand in the USA. Particularly on Asian routes...

karadion · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 1):
JL said that if they didn't find buyers they could defer the orders - doesn't reek of confidence.

Do you have a source for that I can read?

N14AZ · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:19 pm

From that article:

Quote:
"We are a little concerned with how the Street will react to enlarging capacity," he said, noting that the executives of Airbus, Emirates and Amedeo are here to "broaden their knowledge" of how the airplane can make money.

I don't know, but this sounds very ridiclous to me. As much as I was enthusiastic about the A 380-production, but I never had much faith in this "speculative" Amadeo-order (note: I didn't introduce the wording "speculative order", IIRC Airbus themselves used this wording).

Let's hope some representatives from Fedex and UPS attended this "knowledge-broadening" event. Remember, they already had firm orders for the A 380. I simply forgot who screwed it up... {Scratching}

ScottB · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting metalinyoni (Thread starter):
Quote: Emirates airline and aircraft leasing company Amedeo teamed up on Thursday in a charm offensive to sell U.S. airlines on the world's biggest jetliner, the Airbus A380.

Why would Emirates do this as they are basically improving the quality of the competition?

Doesn't Amedeo own EK's early-build A380's? Perhaps Amedeo has some sort of contractual option to hold EK into extended leases on the older A380's unless those aircraft are placed with new lessees?

Also, EK and the U.S. carriers really don't compete for the same traffic flows. Maybe for some of the traffic to India & Southwest Asia, but these aren't large markets for the U.S. carriers.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Ha. Talk about a lost cause but whatever turns them on...

At this point, the U.S. carriers have about as many slots as they need or want to serve LHR & NRT. The #1 transatlantic market, NYC-LHR, is driven by frequency. And A380's between the U.S. & Europe will be empty for three months of the year. Sure, the U.S. airlines are sacrificing profitable traffic in the peak season -- but they're doing so to avoid flying hundreds of empty seats per flight in the winter.

Stitch · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 6):
As much as I was enthusiastic about the A 380-production, but I never had much faith in this "speculative" Amadeo-order (note: I didn't introduce the wording "speculative order", IIRC Airbus themselves used this wording).

A "speculative order" is one placed by a leasing company without customers already assigned for the frames.

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 6):
Let's hope some representatives from Fedex and UPS attended this "knowledge-broadening" event. Remember, they already had firm orders for the A 380. I simply forgot who screwed it up...

Emirates and ILFC converted their freighter orders to passenger frames early on. FedEx held out for awhile longer, but cancelled when Airbus announced their would be extended delivery delays for the type. UPS held out even longer, but was forced to cancel when Airbus (effectively) pulled Authority to Offer on the type by indefinitely delaying it.

mffoda · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
Doesn't Amedeo own EK's early-build A380's? Perhaps Amedeo has some sort of contractual option to hold EK into extended leases on the older A380's unless those aircraft are placed with new lessees?

No, Doric does.

phxa340 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 5):
Do you have a source for that I can read?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...-new-york-after-emirates-snub.html

"Lapidus is on the hook to take his first A380 by 2016. Still, Airbus would not force “white tails” on him, Leahy said in an interview yesterday, referring to industry parlance that describes an aircraft without livery. If need be, Airbus will reschedule the deliveries, Leahy said"

So contrary to what some members were claiming, Amedeo in fact does not have customers lined up for those 20 frames.

UA444 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:44 pm

The 747 is a long shot for US carriers, the A380 has no chance.

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
I wonder why used A380s wouldn't see more demand in the USA. Particularly on Asian routes...

Two main reasons 1) EK has one hub; UA, for example, serves PVG from 4 hubs and 2) no matter what airline, anywhere on the planet, filling a 747 or 380 off season is much more costly than the incremental revenue you get in the peak. In the peak you get a few extra marginal passengers. In the off-peak you have literally hundreds of seats you need to fill. The tradeoff sucks as I think just about every airline other than EK is finding.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
At this point, the U.S. carriers have about as many slots as they need or want to serve LHR & NRT.

It's like selling sand to the Sahara. This has to be a joke.

UAEflyer · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:57 pm

It might be a trial to help Emirates to sell their old A380s for the secondary market, EK illustrated their experience with the whale jet. EK is showing the know how to US carriers.

ScottB · Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 9):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 7):
Doesn't Amedeo own EK's early-build A380's? Perhaps Amedeo has some sort of contractual option to hold EK into extended leases on the older A380's unless those aircraft are placed with new lessees?

No, Doric does.

Doric rebranded themselves as Amedeo earlier this year.

LAXintl · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:04 pm

EK and Amedeo have a media and industry demonstration flight @ JFK this evening.

EK5380 JFK to JFK..

Someone83 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Doric rebranded themselves as Amedeo earlier this year.

No they didn't. Doric is still Doric, but a "spinn off" called Amedeo was created to buy and lease out aircraft and ordered 20 A380 and is a separate company from Doric that own/financed several of EK and SQ's A380

N14AZ · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
Doric rebranded themselves as Amedeo earlier this year.

Nope, either Stitch or KarelXWB will quickly show up and explain the difference (I am too tired now

...)

EDIT: or Someone83 Wink

[Edited 2014-06-12 14:11:25]

neutronstar73 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):
So contrary to what some members were claiming, Amedeo in fact does not have customers lined up for those 20 frames.

Nope, they don't and a lot of the members claiming they did were really just blowing sunshine into places where the sun doesn't shine.

This from Forbes (Aboulafia)
"This customer, now calling itself Amedeo, firmed up this order in March, and it was dutifully added to Airbus’s firm order book. Amedeo’s chief executive, Mark Lapidus, admitted that this was a “speculative” order and that no airlines had been lined up to lease the planes."

This Amedeo/Doric thing is interesting in that there was a bit of knife-handing going on between Doric/Amedeo regarding the use of the name "Doric". Again, from Forbes:

"Last month’s Berlin Air Show saw a rather extraordinary press release from Doric, “Doric Refutes Amedeo Claims.” In it, they accuse Amedeo of “wrongfully using the Doric franchise and Doric track record for its own benefit.” The statement, which can be found at www.doric.com/fileadmin/Doric_Asset_...pdate/2014_05_15_doric_update.pdf, points out that Amedeo “was founded in June 2013 by three former Doric employees, who had been asked to leave Doric.”

In short, this Amedeo order appears to be far from certain, or even likely, to result in deliveries. "

So I think this effort by Emirates is really a shot to shore up their own future as well, since it seems they have gone all in on the A380, and they will need to offload their old aircraft on someone. So far, it doesn't look particularly promising in Europe, and North America has been a solid lockout.

ScottB · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting someone83 (Reply 16):
Doric is still Doric, but a "spinn off" called Amedeo was created to buy and lease out aircraft and ordered 20 A380 and is a separate company from Doric that own/financed several of EK and SQ's A380

Then all the press coverage is wrong, too.

karadion · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 10):

Oh right I misread that. I saw JL thinking Japan Airlines which they do have A350's on orders vs John Leahy of Airbus

MaverickM11 · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 18):
In short, this Amedeo order appears to be far from certain, or even likely, to result in deliveries. "

But it *does* appear to be super-duper professional

7BOEING7 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
UPS held out even longer, but was forced to cancel when Airbus (effectively) pulled Authority to Offer on the type by indefinitely delaying it.

UPS had to hold out to get their deposits back that were transferred from the 37 A300F they cancelled.

Stitch · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 19):
Then all the press coverage is wrong, too.

And that's a surprise?

And I'm being serious, here.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 22):
UPS had to hold out to get their deposits back that were transferred from the 37 A300F they cancelled.

Fair point.

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 18):
So I think this effort by Emirates is really a shot to shore up their own future as well, since it seems they have gone all in on the A380, and they will need to offload their old aircraft on someone. So far, it doesn't look particularly promising in Europe, and North America has been a solid lockout.

I don't believe Emirates owns any of their A380s. They were all sold and then leased back to Doric GmBH. So at the end of 10 years they start handing them back to Doric (I believe the mid-to-most-recent deliveries are on 12 year lease terms).

As for Airbus and Amedeo working together to place Amedeo's frames, that was always part of the plan. Comments at the time Amedeo placed their MoU stated they would be utilizing Airbus' sales and marketing department to help generate interest and customers.

dtw2hyd · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:31 am

Sell those to UN (for refugee airlift missions) or to a Haj operator. No place here for heavily used whales.

RyanairGuru · Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:43 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
I don't believe Emirates owns any of their A380s. They were all sold and then leased back to Doric GmBH. So at the end of 10 years they start handing them back to Doric

I think you're right that they're all leased, but that is precisely why EK need to shift them on the secondary market. If EK paid for them in full, and then amortized the cost over 10 years, they could effectively park them in the desert for "free". Doric, however, would want to maximize their return over a longer period. If there is no secondary market for these frames, and Doric ends up parking them, then the sale/lease-back rates on EK's next batch of frames is almost certainly going to be higher than on the current models. While these Amadeo models are new builds rather than ex-EK, EK must be able to show that there is a market for leased A380 outside of just the current operators, most of whom don't appear to be interested in taking more, otherwise their lease/finance costs will go up.

jayunited · Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 25):
I think you're right that they're all leased, but that is precisely why EK need to shift them on the secondary market. If EK paid for them in full, and then amortized the cost over 10 years, they could effectively park them in the desert for "free". Doric, however, would want to maximize their return over a longer period. If there is no secondary market for these frames, and Doric ends up parking them, then the sale/lease-back rates on EK's next batch of frames is almost certainly going to be higher than on the current models. While these Amadeo models are new builds rather than ex-EK, EK must be able to show that there is a market for leased A380 outside of just the current operators, most of whom don't appear to be interested in taking more, otherwise their lease/finance costs will go up.

While I understand and agree with what you are saying the problem is there is no market here in the US for the A380 new or slightly used. I think the largest aircraft we will see in the fleets of US airlines in the future is probably the 779x and even that might be a stretch for US carriers. I think EK and Airbus need to focus more on Japan and China because there might be a market there for used A380's I'm not sure if any airlines in Africa would have use for used A380's either but one thing is for sure US airlines have no need for an aircraft of that size because it would mean cutting frequency to certain international destinations and Americans are all about frequency and options that fit there schedule not the other way around.

MarcoPoloWorld · Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:02 am

Quoting jayunited (Reply 26):
While I understand and agree with what you are saying the problem is there is no market here in the US for the A380 new or slightly used. I think the largest aircraft we will see in the fleets of US airlines in the future is probably the 779x and even that might be a stretch for US carriers. I think EK and Airbus need to focus more on Japan and China because there might be a market there for used A380's I'm not sure if any airlines in Africa would have use for used A380's either but one thing is for sure US airlines have no need for an aircraft of that size because it would mean cutting frequency to certain international destinations and Americans are all about frequency and options that fit there schedule not the other way around.

I beg to differ. Interesting to watch the A380 hate fest here.

As long as US carriers operate ridiculous frequencies among major stable long route pairs (such as SFO-EWR or SFO-ORD), they themselves are indirectly confirming the need for the A380. And at the same time, they are clogging up precious runway capacity but then complaining about delays.... And with a huge transpacific hub on the west coast, UA should have no difficulty filling an A380 to any major city in Asia on a seasonal basis, let alone year-round.

Source: CarDatabase

RyanairGuru · Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 27):

That is a truly stunning aircraft! Beautiful.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 26):
While I understand and agree with what you are saying the problem is there is no market here in the US for the A380 new or slightly used

I agree 100% and I wasn't commenting on the merits of Emirates' actions. I don't see an A380 ever being painted in UA or DL colors either, but I never claimed that I did. I just said that it made sense to me that EK were investigating the potential market for second hand frames.

deltal1011man · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:30 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 27):

so now it will be used on SFO-EWR?

right, and ATL-AHN is going 40x 748s.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
DL colors either

Anderson has told employees many times he believes the 380 is too large to make money. He even has raw data.....he technically *has* them via AF.

the replacement RFP for the 747/767 is 77W, 787, 350, 330......no 748.....no 380....and thats for a reason.

scbriml · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:36 am

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 18):
Emirates is really a shot to shore up their own future as well, since it seems they have gone all in on the A380, and they will need to offload their old aircraft on someone.

I'm afraid your theory falls flat on its face - EK doesn't own any of its A380s.

When they've finished with them, they just hand them back to the finance company and walk away. EK doesn't care what happens to them after that.

PhilBy · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:29 am

Perhaps Boeing could buy a couple on the cheap to offer for conversion to AF1's! After all if no-one else wants them it might be cheaper then using 747's

N14AZ · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
A "speculative order" is one placed by a leasing company without customers already assigned for the frames.

Which is a proven business model for aircrafts such as 737/320 and 787/330 etc. but I am still not convinced it will work for VLA's such as 748/380. We will see. I hereby commit myself to write a hundred times "I was so wrong" as soon as Amadeo will have signed leasing deals for their first ten airframes.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
Quoting N14AZ (Reply 6):Let's hope some representatives from Fedex and UPS attended this "knowledge-broadening" event. Remember, they already had firm orders for the A 380. I simply forgot who screwed it up...

Emirates and ILFC converted their freighter orders to passenger frames early on. FedEx held out for awhile longer, but cancelled when Airbus announced their would be extended delivery delays for the type. UPS held out even longer, but was forced to cancel when Airbus (effectively) pulled Authority to Offer on the type by indefinitely delaying it.

I know this. I just tried to make a cynical statement (I didn't use the correct code for the smiley), trying to say that hadn't Airbus screwed up production and cancelled the A 380F, today there would be already two US-American operators (non-pax, but doesn't matter).

Does anybody know which airline representatives went to this event/presentation?

[Edited 2014-06-13 00:13:39]

Faro · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:42 am

Seriously, how much chance of success does this Airbus-EK co-promotion stand? Seriously...do they know something that the US market doesn't know? Is this a lost cause or is there really something to it?

Faro

seahawk · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:47 am

I think they are starting to see that the old A380s will be as popular as the A340-500/600 once the lease to EK ends. They will be worthless.

Faro · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:50 am

Seriously, how much chance of success does this Airbus-EK co-promotion stand? Seriously...do they know something that the US market doesn't know? Is this a lost cause or is there really something to it?

Faro

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 27):
As long as US carriers operate ridiculous frequencies among major stable long route pairs (such as SFO-EWR or SFO-ORD), they themselves are indirectly confirming the need for the A380.

Absolutely, but then which will be the first airline to consolidate frequencies into a widebody like the A380? The competition will eat them up proclaiming the lack of convenienve/flexibility of their flight times.

This consolidation is hard to imagine in a unregulated market environment. The US government must impose this consolidation if it is ever going to happen, and the arguments they need will one day crystallise with increasing runway congestion and slot restrictions. But it will take political guts, so there's a fair chance it will not happen for a very long time indeed...

Faro

seahawk · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:00 am

It is also much easier to adjust frequencies to the demand. If the demand reduces you reduce the frequency, but your load factor on the remaining flights is okay. If you use less frequency with larger planes, you can not do this, which means you start flying half too large planes.

Even you can not increase frequencies you can start to use larger planes - say A320 to A321 with very similar trip costs.

bennett123 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:08 am

Marcopoloworld

Surely the whole point about frequency is getting from a to b at a given time.

If delays of several hours become the norm it becomes academic and you arrive closer to your desired time with lower frequency services that arrive on time.

pa747sp · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:12 am

Maybe if some US operators had A380s then they would need to set up maintenance facilities ergo EK would have access to a more readily available spares pool. It's tenuous but who knows.

EIDL · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:21 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 31):
When they've finished with them, they just hand them back to the finance company and walk away. EK doesn't care what happens to them after that.

I'd say they do actually - if they end up sitting in the desert unleased, no finance house is going to fund the next set at any price that doesn't leave them well in the black at the end of the initial lease. Increasing costs hugely for EK.

tommy1808 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:24 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30):
Anderson has told employees many times he believes the 380 is too large to make money. He even has raw data.....he technically *has* them via AF.

On the other hand, if all the A380 doom and gloom is correct, those used A380 may be just so dirt cheap to take on that it will be difficult not to make money with them. And of all major Airlines, Delta would be the most likely one to jump on such an opportunity, given their nose for 2nd hand bargains....

best regards
Thomas

SKAirbus · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:26 am

I think US airlines lose out by not having the A380 on their prestige long haul routes... The aircraft is one of the very few (and probably the first since Corcorde) to be a "destination aircraft".. i.e. people go out of their way to fly on it. The vast majority of airlines have uttered words to that effect at least...

With more and more A380 operators flying into the US, the appeal of US airlines' clapped out 763s, 744s and 772s just doesn't cut it... Of course the 787s and newer A330s and 77Ws are coming on line but still...

There must be a few routes to Asia and Europe (LHR maybe?) that could warrant the whalejet...

Anyway, we'll see... I think politically, it would be unpopular for a US airline to buy the world's largest airliner... why? Because the US didn't make it...

seahawk · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:38 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 41):

On the other hand, if all the A380 doom and gloom is correct, those used A380 may be just so dirt cheap to take on that it will be difficult not to make money with them. And of all major Airlines, Delta would be the most likely one to jump on such an opportunity, given their nose for 2nd hand bargains....

best regards
Thomas

Trip costs compared to a 777W or 777-9 wuld still be too high and if you can not fill the whale, you are not making money. With the decline in high value customers the A380 is increasingly not suited for modern needs. Selling 500+ Y seats is not practical.

tommy1808 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 43):
With the decline in high value customers the A380 is increasingly not suited for modern needs. Selling 500+ Y seats is not practical.

flocks of A380 landing and taking off at US Airports every day seem to point in a different direction. IF EK can fill a brand, spanking new (and hence expensive) A380 and make money with it, it is difficult to imagine that it can´t be done with an A380 they got for pennies on the dollar.
Heck, by the time they come of lease with EK they are completely paid, Doric can put them on Ebay with a 1 US$ starting price and still don´t lose money on the deal... (self pick up of course).

best regards
Thomas

777Jet · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Ha. Talk about a lost cause but whatever turns them on...

Exactly!

brindabella · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:57 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 27):
I beg to differ. Interesting to watch the A380 hate fest here.

The sort of comment that starts a flame war for no good reason at all.

If you bother to read the commentary rather than trying to start an argument, you will see it is about two issues:

1) the problem of "low season" operations, as identified by AA a generation ago when they stayed away from the 747 when the other US majors were eager customers.
2) US carriers have to offer frequency, frequency, frequency. The very opposite of the A380 strategy.

Neither one of which has any remote connection to an "A380 hate fest".

Bill

SeJoWa · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):

Quoting seahawk (Reply 43):
With the decline in high value customers the A380 is increasingly not suited for modern needs. Selling 500+ Y seats is not practical.

flocks of A380 landing and taking off at US Airports every day seem to point in a different direction. IF EK can fill a brand, spanking new (and hence expensive) A380 and make money with it, it is difficult to imagine that it can´t be done with an A380 they got for pennies on the dollar.
Heck, by the time they come of lease with EK they are completely paid, Doric can put them on Ebay with a 1 US$ starting price and still don´t lose money on the deal... (self pick up of course).

best regards
Thomas

The idea boggles the mind - wonderful

I do think the only place an A380EBAY would actually work might be for a Chinese tourist charter operator.

But that could really be a Yuan mine.

dtw2hyd · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
flocks of A380 landing and taking off at US Airports every day seem to point in a different direction. IF EK can fill a brand, spanking new (and hence expensive) A380 and make money with it, it is difficult to imagine that it can´t be done with an A380 they got for pennies on the dollar.

First of all there are no flocks of A380s. US carriers cannot compete with a EK's brand new A380 plus young cabin crew with heavily used A380s and aged cabin crew. They cannot even run couple of 777s to ME today. Bigger plane just means bigger losses.

DL is against A380, UA is not in a position do anything. That leaves AA. I have no idea if they are interested in buying a whale.

BTW what happened to the idea of every one is lining up to pick these birds.

blueflyer · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:37 pm

Quoting brindabella (Reply 46):
US carriers have to offer frequency, frequency, frequency. The very opposite of the A380 strategy.

The ability to offer "frequency, frequency, frequency" is finite. No one is going to build a new airport in Los Angeles because United would like to have twice-hourly Jungle Jet service across its network. Besides, the insistence upon having the most flights in any given market is mostly a domestic consideration, JFK-LHR is the international exception, not the norm. There are several international markets where, whether it is due to constraining bilateral agreements or schedule, upgauging wins over additional frequency.

I agree that there is probably no future for an A380 with a US carrier within the next few years, but I have no doubt it'll happen eventually.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
UA, for example, serves PVG from 4 hubs

I'm not sure that the flight-from-every-hub approach is sustainable in the long-term. especially given the cost-disadvantage US carriers have compared to Asian and Middle East airlines. Two A380s across the Pacific is cheaper than three 773s any day of the week.

I think over time the hub system in the US is going to look a lot more like Lufthansa's in Germany, albeit on a larger scale. A couple of giant hubs (per airline) for all international flights augmented by regional hubs for transcontinental and local flights. The airlines aren't going to rush into it, for one thing there will be massive political backlash from the downgraded hubs, for another United and American have more pressing issues, but it is inevitable, again to compete against foreign airlines with a cost advantage. At that point, the A380 will be a necessity.

strfyr51 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 12:50 pm

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 27):
As long as US carriers operate ridiculous frequencies among major stable long route pairs (such as SFO-EWR or SFO-ORD), they themselves are indirectly confirming the need for the A380. And at the same time, they are clogging up precious runway capacity but then complaining about delays.... And with a huge transpacific hub on the west coast, UA should have no difficulty filling an A380 to any major city in Asia on a seasonal basis, let alone year-round.

Filling the airplane would be no problem, PROVIDED all the domestic flights to SFO would be subordinated to coincide departures and arrivals to correlate feeding that airplane and offloading that airplane to the east north and south.
Now granted, We do subordinate the inbound and outbound banks to connect to and from international flights but that coes on 3 banks a day, We might have to fly the A380 doggone near EMPTY until th pasenger loads built up. Would it be worth it?
Not in my opinion. The A380 is a limited use airplane. And were it to go technical?? whare in the World would you put 60K+ gallons of fuel you might have to offload that beast?!? We onlt have a 45K gallon Capacity at the base fuel farm and 1 ea. 10K gallon pumper for defueling. Dock 1 is set up to do major maintenance on the 777 and the 747. even the superbay wouldn't accomodate that airplane without major modifications because of the wing span. It makes no real sense to but it if modifying your facilities is going ti cost more than the price of an airplane that we might only hav room for 10??
Doesn't make any sense.
And? It's not at all cost effective.

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