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EK413
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New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:59 am

Hi All,

Due to popular demand the previous thread was becoming quite long and in some cases slow to load for some users. Please feel free to continue your discussion in this ongoing thread.

Part 45 can be found here:

New Frontier Part 45 (by SA7700 Mar 1 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Enjoy the journey!

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
Buddys747
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:47 am

From the previous thread, the MDW-MDT/TYS bookings fares are still low so I would assume they are not doing the greatest. I have been hearing a ton of advertisements on the local radio for the MDT-MDW service and F9's full size jets. Currently UA does offer 2 out of 4 Mainline to ORD and AA is doing 2 E75's and 1 CR7. The advertisement also mentions the convenience of using MDT as opposed to BWI.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:03 pm

I'm not convinced TYS is the best market for F9. The TYS-MCO service F9 offered was went out with quite a few unused seats before it was finally kabashed. Their TYS-DEN service fares a little better in that it is hub based.

A wishlist item would have F9 shifting their TYS-MDW service to BNA-ORD. It would be the only large jet service offered between Nashville and O'Hare. Everything else to ORD is on a regional jet. I think those who have business closer to ORD actually fly WN to MDW solely for WN larger jet service.

Although ORD uses dedicated runways geared to the size of aircraft you are flying on I've always been a little hesitant about flying in a 50 seat RegJet perhaps with a 747 on my tail behind me or transitioning on the ground.

WN flies nine daily BNA-MDW flights using the 73X and eleven return flights MDW-BNA; all but three and four respectively in each direction are non-stop which tells me the Nashville-Chicago-Nashville market is popular. With six larger Universities in and around the greater Nashville area including Vanderbilt; ULCC pricing would be welcomed for the college crowds. Nashville-Chicago is a very popular Megabus route. My son has used it five times to Chicago in two years even as a nine hour bus ride with stops in Louisville and IND. In the advertising arena F9 could coin it as the quicker bus service to Chicago.

If by chance F9 were to test the BNA-ORD market the armchair route planner in me would slip it between WN 0600 and 0900 departure out of Nashville at 0700-ish or so Earlier in the morning and later in the evening appears to be quite a bit of Agriculture same day travel between Nashville and Chi-town which I understand is steered to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. One of my chums flies Nashville-Chicago twice or three times weekly.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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sunking737
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:33 pm

I have noticed since F9 was sold that the F9 bashing seems to have slowed, or am I dreaming?? Anyway seems like F9 is doing better.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

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Frontier14
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 2):
If by chance F9 were to test the BNA-ORD market the armchair route planner in me would slip it between WN 0600 and 0900 departure out of Nashville at 0700-ish or so Earlier in the morning and later in the evening appears to be quite a bit of Agriculture same day travel between Nashville and Chi-town which I understand is steered to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. One of my chums flies Nashville-Chicago twice or three times weekly.

But Gent if they would do this I think we all know what SW would do. At this point, even with the Indigo dollars, it makes no economic sense to take SW on head to head. Some of the new F9 routes have apparently been successful, and others not so. It is a chance that the route game must play.

Frontier 14
 
masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 4):
At this point, even with the Indigo dollars, it makes no economic sense to take SW on head to head.

I would add "yet" to your sentence. WN no longer has the cost advantage it once enjoyed and may in fact be the one daunted by the ulccs. I don't want to mix cause with coincidence; but WN will not return to the CLE-MCO market this winter.
 
jcwr56
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:34 pm

I wouldn't be surprised to see a few more flights out of ORD.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 4):
But Gent if they would do this I think we all know what SW would do.

Although the WN model has changed considerably across the last ten or so years. With some hesitation I don't see WN offering service to both MDW and ORD. I think they would look at DAL and DFW first. I also believe WN pulled down service at one of their Houston airports citing duplication. In all fairness I've never flown in our out of DAL. I also have a hunch the tiered expiration of the Wright Amendment is going to keep them busy elsewhere.

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 4):
it makes no economic sense to take SW on head to head

I wouldn't consider ORD and MDW as direct head to head service. From a city perspective; I suppose. Citing the half full, half empty ideology I was seated next to a WN executive on a BNA-MDW flight two years ago and recall him recording into a E-gadget that MDW gate space was maxed out. I don't keep up with airport construction and gate expansion so that may have changed across the last two years.

If F9 were to consider it it would be one or two flights a day in each direction. I look at more as offering a choice and less and attack. Perhaps AA would counter with larger jet service rather that all that RegJet service they offer now. And not doubt WN would match F9 departure time be it to another airport.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:48 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
WN no longer has the cost advantage it once enjoyed and may in fact be the one daunted by the ulccs

Concur, You don't hear much about fuel hedging savings you once heard about at WN. With fuel being an air carriers largest expense the playing field has leveled some. I suspect WN cost has also risen with them flying to larger airports

In comparison AS use to offer a three day advance purchase fare between JNU (Juneau) and Seattle which was a flight specific fare. The three day fare was the closest discounted fare which mirrors ULCC pricing we see today. At the time bags were still free.

The flight times shifted very much like F9 flights we see today in the TTN ULCC model. That AS flight was very popular and very full at a 35-40% savings even with a 0100 (0-dark-30) departure out of JNU which got pax to SEA by 0500 with the time change just as the night shift was getting ready to turn it over to the day shift.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:22 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
I would add "yet" to your sentence. WN no longer has the cost advantage it once enjoyed and may in fact be the one daunted by the ulccs.

I like the way Frontier is handling it - I think IAD-ORD is a very smart move and going back a bit, CLE has happened because Southwest jumped on DEN-CAK.

I guess you could say that CLE-MCO and CLE-RSW are taking Southwest head-on, but the routes were only ever seasonal for Southwest.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
I don't want to mix cause with coincidence; but WN will not return to the CLE-MCO market this winter.

I wonder.

Given Southwest's neurotic reaction to CLE-LAS - off, then on again, then off again and now (apparently finally?) still on - I'll be interested to see what - if anything - Southwest does about CLE-MCO.

mariner
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masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
I don't want to mix cause with coincidence; but WN will not return to the CLE-MCO market this winter.

I wonder.

My statement was based on a newspaper article reporting that WN plans no route additions in CLE before the spring of 2015 (if then).

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...outhwest_airlines_says_its_pr.html
 
compliancecheck
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:09 pm

I recently had family fly DEN-ILG on Frontier, arriving on a Wednesday night. With no scheduled service out of ILG on Thursday - where does the Airbus 320 and crew operate that day? Does it ferry up to PHL and fly some kind of charter?
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
My statement was based on a newspaper article reporting that WN plans no route additions in CLE before the spring of 2015 (if then).

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...outhwest_airlines_says_its_pr.html

Well, fair enough, but it's possible to say that restoring a seasonal route wouldn't be adding a new city.

I agree it's unlikely it (they) will come back - and neither MCO nor RSW appear on the Southwest route map, but they're still in Wiki - but the reaction to CLE-LAS has amused me, I don't trust Southwest where Frontier is concerned, and I'll believe it when the winter schedules come out.

Meanwhile, here's a fun video in this link of the first flight at SUX.

http://www.ktiv.com/story/25771620/2...er-airlines-takes-off-in-siouxland

"Frontier Airlines takes off in Siouxland"

mariner

[Edited 2014-06-13 13:25:30]
aeternum nauta
 
dbo861
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
Meanwhile, here's a fun video in this link of the first flight at SUX.

http://www.ktiv.com/story/25771620/2...er-airlines-takes-off-in-siouxland

"Frontier Airlines takes off in Siouxland"

mariner

According to that video, seats are 94% full out of SUX for the month of June. Good news, maybe they'll add additional frequencies. I'm curious how this route will do after the summer travel season.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting dbo861 (Reply 13):
According to that video, seats are 94% full out of SUX for the month of June. Good news, maybe they'll add additional frequencies. I'm curious how this route will do after the summer travel season.

I doubt there'll be any frequency increase at SUX, at least this year. I think they've probably judged the market accurately, at least for now.

Winter? FSD is year round, but I don't know if SUX is pulling any traffic that would otherwise use FSD - I assume some - or OMA.

And I don't know how much SUX can be expanded. Delta couldn't make SUX-MSP work on CRJ's, even with EAS money.

Chicago maybe, and American flies SUX-ORD with a grant.

http://siouxcityjournal.com/news/loc...e-eed7-5e9f-98ab-c547ce230e8d.html

"Subsdized American routes at Sioux City airport may draw new bidders"

From memory, I think (?) Frontier's limited frequency makes it ineligible for that money. There's also a big question mark over Frontier and Chicago - MDW or ORD or both? - and would either be a good use of aircraft from SUX?

I guess it comes down to the best use of available aircraft and I think it is possible we'll see a sorting out at the end of this summer - Indigo's first.

The reaction at CLE has been terrific, so I guess we'll see something more there - maybe ORD? Maybe IAD? And then there's IAD itself, with some potentially golden opportunities.

But DEN is now - and has been for some time - a mature station and I don't see so many obvious opportunities from there - a return to SMF, perhaps, and - fingers crossed - there's a place for SUX in winter.

mariner
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masseybrown
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:21 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
My statement was based on a newspaper article reporting that WN plans no route additions in CLE before the spring of 2015 (if then).

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...outhwest_airlines_says_its_pr.html

Despite this, WN is apparently adding a CLE-PHX on 12/29. Holidays only? Seasonal? It runs daily 12/29-1/3. WN's schedule extension for 1/5 isn't yet available.
 
freakyrat
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:45 pm

I hope F9 doesn't just give away seats in SUX. When they were in SBN my calculations were that if they would have charged $20.00 more per seat they would have made enough profit to stay. They had very good loads for 9 months out of the 11 they were there. Three out of the four flights a week were consistently full but they wanted to reduce it to three to remain constantly profitable but SBN officials balked at it cause it would reduce connection opportunities in DEN. Also the DGS people told me that on the busiest days they maybe had 2 empty seats and most times they couldn't even get non-revs on. I still maintain that F9 made a profit out of SBN but not the yield that they desired even excluding the grant money. I still keep hearing rumors every time I fly to DEN that SBN may come back with some different routes.

Getting back to SUX, 3 flights a week sounds sensible for SUX and lets see how they do. As everyone knows full flights are not always profitable.

Recently I was on a WN flight from MDW-BKG-DAL and both Branson legs were completely full yet WN decided to discontinue service to Branson.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:37 pm

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 16):
I was on a WN flight from MDW-BKG-DAL and both Branson legs were completely full yet WN decided to discontinue service to Branson.

It is the Summer vacationing season. Although BKG would farther down on my visit list I'm sure there are those who want to go there. I suppose WN has to find that niche market that complements BKG the best.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:46 pm

ignificantly

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 2):
A wishlist item would have F9 shifting their TYS-MDW service to BNA-ORD. It would be the only large jet service offered between Nashville and O'Hare

No one cares about that. What they care about are frequency, connections, FF program etc.

Quoting freakyrat (Reply 16):
As everyone knows full flights are not always profitable.

I am stunned that people just accept that as fact. If so, it means really poor pricing and revenue management. Because it means unconstrained demand is likely significantly higher then constrained demand. And yet youre telling me the top say 150 people arent profitable or willing to pay more.
 
freakyrat
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting bobloblaw reply 18

"I am stunned that people just accept that as fact. If so, it means really poor pricing and revenue management. Because it means unconstrained demand is likely significantly higher then constrained demand. And yet youre telling me the top say 150 people arent profitable or willing to pay more."

F9 has a more capable revenue management team in place and it looks like they are pricing their product right. My own thoughts were that SBN-DEN would have made it with better advertising. They did none, Just a few billboards around town. F9 didn't even get any of their cute commercials on local TV till 4 months or so after they started service. Another mistake they made was starting service in October and ending their service in September. They missed two Notre Dame home football seasons completely. From Spring Break in March and especially till September the flights were completely full. So they had five months out of 11 with LF's in the low 80's and the rest were low 90's or higher. The five bad months drug their average load factor down to about 81% which wasn't good. They also gave away to many fare deals and didn't quit them quick enough. Aviation Consultant Michael Boyd even echoed my same sentiments in his comments. I used their CASM that they report to the DOT as my basis and calculated that if they would have charged $20.00 more per passenger they could have stayed and also if in the slow months they would have boarded about 15-20 more bodies per airplane they would have stayed. I've talked to crews that flew the route during the busy months and they said the flights were completely full. They flew a respectable 22,000 people each way on 197 flights or 44,000 or so total with most during the last six months they operated the route but when you average it out over the slow months that brings it to 107 bodies per flight each way which drags the LF down to 81%. It didn't matter if the last six months that they put 133-135 on each flight. I still think that not excluding the subsidy and using the average SBN-DEN fare that they took a minimum of 4 million in and that didn't include the 700,000 in SCASD money they burned. The F9 crews I talked to in Denver still think that a one point they may return to the market and this time do it right. There is also a little scuttlebutt going around that they may try a different route from SBN not DEN.
 
jeepyjeep
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:12 pm

If this has been mentioned already, please forgive me -- but I just saw that Frontier has announced THREE new routes out of CLE! (http://www.flyfrontier.com/cleveland-1-day-sale)

CLE-ORD
CLE-LGA (!)
CLE-IAD
 
FRNT787
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:47 pm

The ORD and IAD routes weren't too big of a surprise. LGA was though, a happy one. Does anyone know how the slots will work out with this? I'm not sure that their DEN slots can be used for it.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 4:58 pm

The ORD says they are building up ORD vs MDW. Question is will they move MDW to ORD?
 
runningonempty
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 22):
Question is will they move MDW to ORD?

I hope they don't. They have a great niche at MDW. Plus, I'd be nervous that WN will eat up their gates once they left.

Also wondering, how is the BKG service going so far? I feel really bad for all the investors in that airport, It didn't work out at all.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 20):
CLE-ORD
CLE-LGA (!)
CLE-IAD

All good news, and two of them fairly predictable.

There's some (I think) better news today - the Frontier pilots have voted to change their union.

FAPA lives!  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
No one cares about that. What they care about are frequency, connections, FF program etc.

I suspect the the majority of the flying public on leisure travel fly with their wallets/purses first. Schedules and frequency might be more of a concern for business travel. With that said if I told my boss I could save him a boatload of cash by flying back one day later I'm sure I would get the nod. I use my RAS (remote access) token which allows me to accomplish most of a days work while in a travel status.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 22):
The ORD says they are building up ORD vs MDW. Question is will they move MDW to ORD?

I've was told two years ago MDW at least for WN is maxed out. I can't help but think that may also apply across the board.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
What they care about are frequency, connections, FF program etc.

Not in the case of the ULCC's, where price is the primary determining factor. One of the Cleveland papers put it into perspective today:

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-...-chicago-and-washington-dc-no-joke

"Cleveland's Frontier Airlines is Offering $19 Trips to New York, Chicago, and Washington DC - No Joke

Frontier Airlines — the "poor man's" airline that slinked into Cleveland Hopkins earlier this year to fill the gaping hole left by United — is offering dirt cheap flights to cities like New York! Chicago! and Washington D.C.!"


Frontier - "the poor man';s airline." I like that.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:44 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 26):
Frontier Airlines — the "poor man's" airline

I like Megabus of the sky better. The bus part fits neatly too.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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Frontier14
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:06 pm

The news today regarding additional flights ar CLE just adds to the re-configuring of Frontier from LCC to ULCC...... Who would have ever imagined a year ago that F9 would be adding and continuing to add routes in the eastern half of the US, let alone still be in business today?

F9 (#3 under Indigo) is a pleasant surprise, and most likely will continue to be for a few years to come, I hope. It would appear that their loyal customer base here in DEN have continued to support them in the transition through and to the "ala carte" template. Undoubtedly a few pax have been lost because of the ULCC change, but from what I am hearing the planes are flying nearly full or full out of DEN.

Frontier has done a good job of making the public aware of the expanded fee menu with television ads at prime time and in concert with local news broadcasts. Whether one subscribes to the talking animals advertising of the past, F9 has chosen to re-employ the talking tails apparently successfully in their Colorado marketing of ala carte fares.

The airline is continuing to advertise for flight attendants and pilots. This would lead us to suspect that more expanded route news is probably on the horizon (as mentioned by the CLE airport director).

For those of us who follow F9, these are enjoyable times from what many thought was the formidable airline grave yard that many prophesied would be near term Frontier's fate.

Frontier 14
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 25):

Re: MDW being full
There are 3 gates in Concourse C
The only other airline in C is Sun Country with less than daily flights (I think 5x weekly) to MSP
F9 only has 5 destinations 2 of which are seasonal. Plus there is another gate that never gets used. Unless WN is using it but I think we would have heard about that
 
jcwr56
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:55 pm

No consolidation of MDW and ORD, you'll see additional services from ORD. Probably 3 or 4.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 29):
There are 3 gates in Concourse C
The only other airline in C is Sun Country with less than daily flights (I think 5x weekly) to MSP

If I understand correctly a new start-up is or will be using the "C" gates http://www.publiccharters.com/ It looks like they have an aggressive growth plan with planned service which will include MMU in your neck of the woods. http://www.publiccharters.com/routes-schedules/ It looks like they fly daily at least through Labor Day.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 31):
If I understand correctly a new start-up is or will be using the "C" gates http://www.publiccharters.com/ It looks like they have an aggressive growth plan with planned service which will include MMU in your neck of the woods. http://www.publiccharters.com/routes-schedules/ It looks like they fly daily at least through Labor Day.

I've heard about this airline, part of their pitch with MMU (Morristown, NJ) is the lack of airport security. They fly to Cincinatti Lunken airport and Northern Kentucky (CVG) but CVG is not at the terminal but through an FBO at the Airport admin offices. So it will be awhile before they have MMU-MDW service because MMU would have to apply for TSA security.

I still have reservations as to one or both of the remaining gates not being available during most of the day.
 
runningonempty
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:18 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 31):
If I understand correctly a new start-up is or will be using the "C" gates http://www.publiccharters.com/ It looks like they have an aggressive growth plan with planned service which will include MMU in your neck of the woods. http://www.publiccharters.com/routes-schedules/ It looks like they fly daily at least through Labor Day.

Thanks for that! It really seems interesting. All that is served by a Gulfstream? It seems that they are operating one Gulfstream and one FRJ (Doriner?) 328. Im interested to see how their service to Morristown goes. And there goes my plan to start an airline to dominate WN.   

But, back to Frontier, split ops at ORD and MDW seems a bit ridiculous. Especially as a ULCC. They need to sacrifice passenger preferred airport in the name of saving money.
 
smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:37 am

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 30):
No consolidation of MDW and ORD, you'll see additional services from ORD. Probably 3 or 4.

Are you hinting at more routes from ORD?

It also looks like F9 is adding an additional frequency in Oct to CLE-ATL/DFW/RDU. Advance bookings must be doing well on these routes.
 
smoot4208
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:34 am

Also, on another note, it looks like Apple Vacations now has both ORD & MDW service listed or F9 starting in December. Looks like MDW-CUN is the only route that gets both ORD & MDW service. The rest of the service remains at ORD, at least for now.
 
rampart
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:05 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 31):
If I understand correctly a new start-up is or will be using the "C" gates http://www.publiccharters.com/ It looks like they have an aggressive growth plan with planned service which will include MMU in your neck of the woods. http://www.publiccharters.com/routes-schedules/ It looks like they fly daily at least through Labor Day.
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 32):
I've heard about this airline, part of their pitch with MMU (Morristown, NJ) is the lack of airport security. They fly to Cincinatti Lunken airport and Northern Kentucky (CVG) but CVG is not at the terminal but through an FBO at the Airport admin offices. So it will be awhile before they have MMU-MDW service because MMU would have to apply for TSA security.

Not to derail the thread further, but this appears to be at least partly Ultimate Air Shuttle, based in LUK, who have had public charter service to/from LUK, CVG, MMU, CLT, and MDW for several years now. Yes, MMU-MDW is already offered, at least a year now. Publiccharters.com appears to be marketing, but not flying, their services and separately another public charter company (CFM) to Florida. As Jerseyguy said, Ultimate Air use FBOs, no terminal space, even at MDW, CVG, and CLT. The MDW service to Florida (flown by CFM) varies from that model and uses an existing gate and check-in counter at the regular terminal at MDW.

At any rate, no current competition with F9, and if they chose to start up service from an FBO at TTN (or some other Philadelphia suburban GA airport), still a very different niche.

-Rampart
 
Chisky16
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:16 am

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 35):
Looks like MDW-CUN is the only route that gets both ORD & MDW service.

This might be put in to pick up the traffic FL/WN carries from MDW. WN won't be running a CUN flight from MDW once FL folds, so I think that it will be marketed at solely a F9 route and not Apple Vacations. Will F9 be using T5 for the CLE and IAD flights out of ORD? Those will be the only domestic routes served from T5 at ORD, I believe.
Using common knowledge to save the day!
 
jcwr56
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting ChiSky16 (Reply 37):


F9 will be moving all departure's from T5 over to either L1 or L2. International arrival's will clear at T5, domestics at T3.

The 'L' concourse will be busy, that's for sure.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:39 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 36):
Ultimate Air use FBOs, no terminal space, even at MDW,

Not being overly familiar with MDW. I've landed or connected through MDW a handful of times across twenty years in terminal "B"

If http://www.flychicago.com/midway/en/...ap/default.aspx?mapname=concoursec is accurate (lower left corner diagram) they use C-3 at MDW. I saw another URL which dated back to 2012 which offered the same information. because it is two years; old and airlines come and go or are relocated it may no longer be valid. F9 and Sun Country also use "C" as stated.

The MDW terminal "C" terminal gates (at least one of them) mimics Gate 5 in Juneau which is a public use gate which DL is currently using on a first come first serve basis. Next time I pass through MDW I will make time time to take a look at at terminal "C"
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
rampart
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):
If http://www.flychicago.com/midway/en/...ap/default.aspx?mapname=concoursec is accurate (lower left corner diagram) they use C-3 at MDW.

Yes, for CFM (dba "Publiccharters.com") on the MDW-Florida charters. For Utlimate Air (who are still their own thing but apparently also marketed by Publiccharters.com), I think they still use the FBO.
https://www.ultimateairshuttle.com/flight-information/chicago/
Plug in the address on the webpage to Google Map. It's the Atlantic Aviation FBO.

-Rampart
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:52 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 24):
FAPA lives!

To expand on that, for those who don't know:

http://www.pr.com/press-release/564818

"The Frontier Airline Pilots Association (FAPA) Regains Certification as Exclusive Bargaining Representative for Pilots at Frontier Airlines

Nearly 90% of Frontier pilots participated in the election with 87% of voters casting ballots in favor of FAPA. The National Mediation Board (NMB) then officially certified FAPA, ending a contentious 3 year struggle to reestablish representation of Frontier pilots under an organization of their choosing."


mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2672
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 35):
Also, on another note, it looks like Apple Vacations now has both ORD & MDW service listed or F9 starting in December.

Great catch! looks like the flights operate on Saturdays only in December, and then goes to 2x weekly in January operating on Wednesdays and Saturdays.

The Apple Vacations MDW-CUN flights start December 20, 2014.

F9 8548 MDW 6:00am- 9:45am CUN
F9 8549 CUN 10:30am- 2:20pm MDW

Quoting ChiSky16 (Reply 37):
This might be put in to pick up the traffic FL/WN carries from MDW. WN won't be running a CUN flight from MDW once FL folds, so I think that it will be marketed at solely a F9 route and not Apple Vacations.

FYI WN is taking over all international flights after FL is gone. WN is flying MDW-CUN 2x daily during winter. This looks like a move by Apple Vacations to capture some of the traffic from the MDW area instead of leaving it all to WN.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):
If http://www.flychicago.com/midway/en/...ap/default.aspx?mapname=concoursec is accurate (lower left corner diagram) they use C-3 at MDW.

The only flight Public Charters has out of C3 is MDW-MBL(Manistee, MI) which operates 1x daily. If Frontier wanted to grow at MDW it has the room to do so in Concourse C. As others have stated gates C1 and C3 are under utilized.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):
Next time I pass through MDW I will make time time to take a look at at terminal "C"

Not my video but in the first minute you get a tour of Concourse C.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcd60TkaEJ0
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:58 pm

Here's a nice one:

http://capegazette.villagesoup.com/p...irport-ilg-record-for-firs/1199416

"Frontier Airlines to Register 200,000th Passenger at ILG - Sets Wilmington Airport (ILG) Record for first 11 months of Service

On Thursday, June 19, representatives of Frontier airlines will join with Wilmington Airport (ILG) officials to recognize the 200,000th passenger to use the commercial air service. Celebrating this milestone, the selected passenger will be awarded a $500 Frontier Airlines gift card and special promotional items. It also marks a new record for the first 11 months of commercial service at Wilmington Airport (ILG)."


I sometimes think that ILG is the red-headed stepchild of the Frontier focus cities, and I'd love to see a bit more added, because most of the planes are full.

I know ILG-DTW didn't work (or IAH) but I don't quite understand Frontier's present affection for DTW. Perhaps ILG is even more leisure oriented, and I wonder why they've never started ILG-FLL.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
smoot4208
Posts: 595
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 42):
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 35):
Also, on another note, it looks like Apple Vacations now has both ORD & MDW service listed or F9 starting in December.

Great catch! looks like the flights operate on Saturdays only in December, and then goes to 2x weekly in January operating on Wednesdays and Saturdays.

The Apple Vacations MDW-CUN flights start December 20, 2014.

F9 8548 MDW 6:00am- 9:45am CUN
F9 8549 CUN 10:30am- 2:20pm MDW

I'm curious to see what Indigo's view on Apple Vacations is vs what Frontier is contractually obligated to fly for Apple from their agreement 2 years ago. Frontier has been adding tons of new routes while their fleet is only slightly growing. Some of that is through increased utilization, however not all of this flying can be attributed to that. Im curious to see if Indigo will pullback some of the Apple flying which I think accounts for 7-8 aircraft from JAN-APR. In years past, it made sense as DEN didn't need all that capacity in the winter, but as they diversify to more Florida flying from IAD/TTN/ILG/CLE, those7-8 airplanes could easily be deployed there.
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 43):
I sometimes think that ILG is the red-headed stepchild of the Frontier focus cities, and I'd love to see a bit more added, because most of the planes are full.

For those that know about F9 service to ILG It should definitely pick up late next week with the NHL player draft being held in Philly on Saturday and Sunday June 28-29 I'd imagine TTN may also see an uptick.

If I were in F9 planning I would try to put an extra flight into ILG from ATL, DEN and MDW none which appear to offer service to ILG on Friday. June 27th. Monday June 30 out of ILG is covered except to MDW.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting Frontier14 (Reply 28):
F9 (#3 under Indigo) is a pleasant surprise, and most likely will continue to be for a few years to come, I hope.

  

Of all the new routes, perhaps CLE-LGA is the most pleasant surprise to me. I had not expected anything new at LGA, mostly because I didn't think they had the slots.

I don't know where they've come from - a DEN-LGA (can they?) perhaps - and if so, it intrigues me that CLE-LGA (against Delta and United) was chosen over IAD-LGA (against just United) but I could handle a few more surprises like this.

I've never been sure how many LGA slots Frontier actually has now. Originally, back in 1997, they were granted 3 slot pairs, but the third pair was used only intermittently.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Fronti...line+to+Add+Third+La...-a054221540

"Frontier Airlines Adds Additional Flights Airline to Add Third La Guardia Flight"

From memory, that third flight went away around 9/11 but they bought it back in 2003 (or 4?) but I think that had to be reconfirmed by the DOT.

I don't know if they still have it or if any can be used for CLE. I guess, because it's happening and I haven't heard that anyone has sold any slots or that Frontier has bought any.

Still, it raises a question - will they ever get any more? If they can I think IAD-LGA has to be on the cards.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
I don't know where they've come from - a DEN-LGA (can they?) perhaps
Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
I've never been sure how many LGA slots Frontier actually has now. Originally, back in 1997, they were granted 3 slot pairs, but the third pair was used only intermittently.

There are various "saved" programs in the federal government. I don't no if they are in play. If the LGA slots are federally controlled than the saved provision my just apply. The best way to understand it is as accruing credits which can be deferred and used later.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1802
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:45 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):

To expand on that, for those who don't know:

http://www.pr.com/press-release/564818

"The Frontier Airline Pilots Association (FAPA) Regains Certification as Exclusive Bargaining Representative for Pilots at Frontier Airlines

Nearly 90% of Frontier pilots participated in the election with 87% of voters casting ballots in favor of FAPA. The National Mediation Board (NMB) then officially certified FAPA, ending a contentious 3 year struggle to reestablish representation of Frontier pilots under an organization of their choosing."

mariner

Thank Lord to the Frontier pilots! A unique group that believes it has a family atmosphere flying for Frontier. The whole Republic thing was a fiasco and a massive headache for the pilots. They hated the bush-league reps of Republic and being forced into their representation. As the F9 pilots showed during the WN attempt to buy and liquidate their airline, they have a lot of pride in their jobs and company. That said, it's not all roses.

Also, ground workers in Denver are trying to unionize and I doubt this is a positive development for the airline.
 
runningonempty
Posts: 272
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RE: New Frontier Part 46

Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
If they can I think IAD-LGA has to be on the cards

Nah, that is a brutal route, and for such a short segment, IAD isn't the place, unless they began to really "hub" IAD with possible connections. Maybe LTD could drum up enough customers, but it's a competitive route. I'd dare to say we'd see LGA-DCA rather than to IAD. LGA is a wealth of opportunity to F9. I'm upset they gave away their "cozy" space at LGA for another area, but at least they still have a presence there.

CLE-ORD, interesting. There is definitely enough potential business there, F9 has another LTD schedule which kinda upsets me. These routes are routes that people will pay a little more to fly if they don't have to rearrange plans to fit a carriers schedule. Maybe they will do well and up the frequencies....

And with all of this, ILG and TTN will be on the back burner, with ILG slowly declining, and TTN with some questionably profitable route like BNA, STL, and MKE... I wonder how UST is doing now that they have IAD-UST.

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