United Suspend MAN, BFS, DUB, And FCO

davies2911 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:49 pm

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articl...mporarily+suspend+some+routes.html

Being report in Travel press that UA will suspend EWR flights to MAN, BFS, DUB, and FCO from January through to March.

UA are reassuring the airports this is just a temporary move.

Having used UA this January from MAN this Jan gone im very surprised as the flights were packed both ways in both cabins.

LAXintl · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:01 pm

Story is a bit wrong...

Here are the details:

Rome:
EWR-FCO suspended Nov. 6 through March 28. IAD-FCO suspended Oct. 25 to April 6.

Belfast:
EWR-BFS suspended Jan. 5 through March 10, 2015.

Dublin & Manchester:
IAD-DUB and IAD-MAN suspended Jan. 5 through March 3, 2015. Both markets however continue to be served via EWR.

Ultimately its seasons cuts to European markets like previous years.

jetblue1965 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

Rome:
EWR-FCO suspended Nov. 6 through March 28. IAD-FCO suspended Oct. 25 to April 6.

I know FCO is highly seasonal but I'm surprised they can't even maintain EWR-FCO for something like 4-5x weekly instead of suspending both.

Hopefully this will improve 2015Q1 results a bit.

UALFAson · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:10 pm

More specifics from UA's intranet:

IAD-DUB and IAD-MAN suspended 5 Jan - 3 Mar with day-of-week reductions in Nov, Dec, and the rest of March

EWR-BFS suspended 5 Jan - 10 Mar with day-of-week reductions in Nov, Dec, and the rest of March

EWR-FCO suspended 6 Nov - 28 Mar

IAD-FCO suspended 25 Oct - 6 Apr

If I recall correctly, EWR-FCO service was suspended seasonally last year but IAD-FCO service continued year round. This is a pretty big cut from IAD--more than 5 months. People talk about how seasonal FCO is, but wow!

davies2911 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:10 pm

Apologies, I googled and couldnt find anymore sources to double check it out.

Thanks for the correction.

jetblue1965 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:16 pm

Interestingly, 3 of the 5 suspensions are 752s. I wonder if those are being retired ?

LAXintl · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:40 pm

Yes Rome seems to be highly seasonal for US carriers considering its size and stature.
AA as well drops the station entirely during winters, while DL has also dropped its JFK-FCO in the past.

For United they made a point to mention that Rome can still be reach during the winter utilizing the dozen codeshare connections available via Star partner hubs in Europe that remain.

MesaFlyGuy · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
Interestingly, 3 of the 5 suspensions are 752s. I wonder if those are being retired ?

My guess is that it's a combination of cutting the low-hanging fruit, while also adding a small bit of mainline capacity where it's needed domestically, which the 757s can do quite easily. Plus, the sCO planes are staying in the fleet for quite a while yet.

[Edited 2014-06-13 10:52:30]

usairways85 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
Hopefully this will improve 2015Q1 results a bit.

Shrinking to stay profitable is never a good thing. Granted these are seasonal reductions to seasonal type destinations so there is some weight behind the rationale

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
I wonder if those are being retired ?

PMCO birds....no

toxtethogrady · Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:54 pm

Contrast this with American...

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...-asia-routes-are-investments.html/

USAirALB · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:00 pm

So are PHL-FCO and ATL-FCO the only year-round routes on US carriers to FCO?

LHUSA · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:01 pm

"Contrast this with American...

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...-asia-routes-are-investments.html/"

United's trimming of seasonal TATL routes and AA's new pacific strategy are two very different animals. Apples and oranges

[Edited 2014-06-13 11:02:22]

United1 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 9):

Contrast this with American...

As pointed out AA and DL do the same seasonal reductions to Europe as UA is doing. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the article about AA'S new Pacific routes..UA has added or will add SFO-CTU/TPE/HND, LAX-MEL and a second daily IAH-NRT this year. Airlines adjust capacity rather frequently across both oceans...

panamair · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
DL has also dropped its JFK-FCO in the past.

DL dropped JFK-FCO from November till end of March this past winter, but kept ATL-FCO year round. Looks like this coming winter, they will shorten the winter JFK-FCO break to just January and February (keeping it running November until just after the New Year, and then restarting March 1, 2015). ATL-FCO will continue year-round...

jetblue1965 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 9):
Contrast this with American...

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...-asia-routes-are-investments.html/

from the link :

Q : Do you think the DFW flights to Shanghai and Hong Kong are big gambles, medium gambles or hardly gambles at all.
Parker: I think they’re investments .... strategically important to us ... view them as investments for the long term.

That's a very diplomatic way to say medium gamble, at the very least.

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 8):
Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
I wonder if those are being retired ?

PMCO birds....no

I didn't mean retiring PMCO 752, but the retirement of PMUA 752s forces these birds off the Atlantic to go backfill domestic capacity ?

United1 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
didn't mean retiring PMCO 752, but the retirement of PMUA 752s forces these birds off the Atlantic to go backfill domestic capacity ?

They should not need to there's more than enough 739s coming online to replace the 752.

MAH4546 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 10):
So are PHL-FCO and ATL-FCO the only year-round routes on US carriers to FCO?

And IAD-FCO on United.

Plus even Alitalia only flies two U.S. routes year-round, MIA-FCO and JFK-FCO. The rest are seasonal.

panamair · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 16):
And IAD-FCO on United.

No, looks like IAD-FCO will be seasonally suspended also:

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 3):

EWR-FCO suspended 6 Nov - 28 Mar

IAD-FCO suspended 25 Oct - 6 Apr

codc10 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 13):

DL dropped JFK-FCO from November till end of March this past winter, but kept ATL-FCO year round. Looks like this coming winter, they will shorten the winter JFK-FCO break to just January and February (keeping it running November until just after the New Year, and then restarting March 1, 2015). ATL-FCO will continue year-round...

FCO is a partner hub for DL. This would be similar to UA dropping EWR-MUC on a similar basis, which it is not.

jfk777 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 10):
So are PHL-FCO and ATL-FCO the only year-round routes on US carriers to FCO?

You have to wonder if Romans go to Miami in the winter since Altialia flies there. AA should fly Miami to Rome as a counter cyclical route since most US to FCO flights are from cold northern cities. Miami is unique in its European travel paterns as more travel happens in the winter then in the summer.

as739x · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 7):
Plus, the sCO planes are staying in the fleet for quite a while yet.

However they can be used to replace SubUA metal being retired. Another on was sent to VCV recently

MesaFlyGuy · Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 20):
However they can be used to replace SubUA metal being retired. Another on was sent to VCV recently

Exactly my point.

MAH4546 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Miami is unique in its European travel paterns as more travel happens in the winter then in the summer.

That's a myth. Miami-Europe double-peaks in summer and winter; it's pretty consistent year-round.

DiscoverCSG · Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:34 pm

On another forum's thread on this topic, it has been not-so-subtly suggested by two UA employees that there will be some sort of announcement tomorrow about how UA is allocating their longhaul fleet. I'm not sure whether that means there will be new routes, or what.

Does anybody have any insight into what the route/equipment changes might be?

United1 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 23):

IAH-SCL has been batted around...

fxramper · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 3):
EWR-FCO suspended 6 Nov - 28 Mar

Not surprised. This has always been seasonal. MXP is always there.

Quoting UALFAson (Reply 3):
EWR-BFS suspended 5 Jan - 10 Mar with day-of-week reductions in Nov, Dec, and the rest of March

Am surprised here. Have used this trip and it's always full to the gills.

deltal1011man · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting codc10 (Reply 18):
FCO is a partner hub for DL. This would be similar to UA dropping EWR-MUC on a similar basis, which it is not.

but the DL/AF/KL/AZ covers the market year round. Delta is used for extra capacity for the year round AZ flight.

United1 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:23 pm

Apparently there will be a formal announcement on Monday however UA applied for the following new routes:

IAH-SCL
IAH-PUJ
ORD-BZE

LAXintl · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 27):
IAH-SCL

Starts December. 2-class 763.

jetblue1965 · Fri Jun 13, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 27):

Whew IAH-SCL finally ! That took them long enough

AVENSAB727 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:01 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 27):

All right! SCL at last!

MAH4546 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 29):
Whew IAH-SCL finally ! That took them long enough

Why "finally?" The market is tiny (from the U.S. generally), with weak demand and little business traffic.

I do think the route will do okay, but it wasn't some glaring whole in the network. U.S.-Chile flights probably have among the lightest loads of any flights from the U.S. going south.

jetblue1965 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:12 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 31):

It IS one of the largest holes within UA's LatAm network, the other being EWR-GIG

A 2-class 763 is a rather low risk bet. If it struggles they can always move in with 788

Eirules · Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:13 am

Can't say I'm particularly surprised or disappointed by this. AA have for years only operated DUB-ORD on a seasonal basis, DL reduces frequency and capacity on it's JFK & ATL routes to DUB for Jan and Feb and even the home player EI is dropping frequencies ex SNN to JFK and BOS and DUB to YYZ. January and February are very weak months transatlantic ex DUB and to much of Europe and if you're already operating the route on a 757 there's not much down guaging you can do

MesaFlyGuy · Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:15 am

Quoting EIRules (Reply 33):
if you're already operating the route on a 757 there's not much down guaging you can do

[Insert pointless yet inevitable UA ERJ joke here]

UA444 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:40 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 15):
They should not need to there's more than enough 739s coming online to replace the 752

Except that there isn't. They are retiring more 752s this year than taking delivery of 739s to replace them. That's from their own fleet plan on their own website.

United1 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 35):
Quoting United1 (Reply 15):
They should not need to there's more than enough 739s coming online to replace the 752

Except that there isn't. They are retiring more 752s this year than taking delivery of 739s to replace them. That's from their own fleet plan on their own website.

You are thinking too linear when it comes to fleet planning.

They are parking a few 752s after the summer season as they don't need all the capacity they have during the winter. No point hanging onto aircraft that will be replaced by capacity coming online early next year...the 752s are being replaced on a one for one basis.

UA444 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 36):
They are parking a few 752s after the summer season as they don't need all the capacity they have during the winter. No point hanging onto aircraft that will be replaced by capacity coming online early next year...the 752s are being replaced on a one for one basis

If they're replacing them one for one, why are they furloughing flight attendants if the net result will not be a loss of capacity? Don't forget that many of the 739s until last year were going to the ex-CO employees, only about 20 so far have gone to UA employees and they've already retired more than 30 757s.

United1 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:24 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 37):
If they're replacing them one for one, why are they furloughing flight attendants if the net result will not be a loss of capacity? Don't forget that many of the 739s until last year were going to the ex-CO employees, only about 20 so far have gone to UA employees and they've already retired more than 30 757s.

There are 26/27 739s being flown by sUA with another 13 coming online this year. As for the F/As I think we have discussed that before and it had something to do with UA not being able to get enough voluntarily furloughs. sUA is overstaffed while sCO was understaffed....

There are also a number of sUA F/As that switched to the sCO side of the house which is flying some of the 752 capacity that was replaced by 739s

MAH4546 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 32):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 31):
It IS one of the largest holes within UA's LatAm network, the other being EWR-GIG

That says a lot if a tiny market like Santiago is on the largest holes - in other words, United has a pretty complete Latin American network as is.

DocLightning · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:29 am

Quoting davies2911 (Thread starter):
Having used UA this January from MAN this Jan gone im very surprised as the flights were packed both ways in both cabins.

Remember, full ≠ profitable. If the average revenue is lower than the cost to operate the flight, then the flight does not make money.

UA444 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 38):
There are 26/27 739s being flown by sUA with another 13 coming online this year. As for the F/As I think we have discussed that before and it had something to do with UA not being able to get enough voluntarily furloughs. sUA is overstaffed while sCO was understaffed....

There are also a number of sUA F/As that switched to the sCO side of the house which is flying some of the 752 capacity that was replaced by 739s

Yeah, they're overstaffed because they are retiring more jets than they are taking in to replace them. Only 111 UA FA's went over to the ex-CO side of the house, where they are at the bottom of the seniority list when it comes to scheduling. The rest, who didn't want to uproot their entire lives and careers because Jeff is incompetent are now on the street or about to be. Never saw Richard Anderson lay-off NW employees while hiring new DL ones to do the same damn thing.

Yeah, you could argue that the FA union is part of the problem, and they are. But they aren't the ones retiring more planes than they're buying. And then hilariously, there will still be an even bigger narrowbody shortage once this is over with since Smisek and company have said repeatedly that none of those shiny 737s they have on order are growth aircraft, including the MAX. Meanwhile, they brag about how they're buying their regional partners new planes. DL adds 717s to their fleet, increasing mainline in midsized markets while UA is on a mission to outsource most of their stations to competitors.

[Edited 2014-06-13 19:43:31]

jetblue1965 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 39):

Well there's also more secondary markets like MVD CNF BSB that they can explore but given Brazil's economic slow down I don't think the latter 2 are anywhere near the horizon

Maybe more junk flights to PTY ?!

catiii · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 8):

Shrinking to stay profitable? So I suppose when DL makes seasonal adjustments that's not a good thing? Or when US does it? Or AA? Or are you just taking cheap shots at UA?

It's simply smart capacity discipline. And the thread title is misleading. They're seasonal suspensions.

United1 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 41):
Yeah, they're overstaffed because they are retiring more jets than they are taking in to replace them

UA has had F/As on voluntary furloughs for years....they couldn't get enough to take them this time around or the union blocked it...I can't remember but net net has nothing to do with 752 retirement. BTW UA offered employment to EVERY single F/A who was involuntarily furloughed from sUA at sCO. Not whether they all took it who knows but if they didn't it was their personal choice.

http://www.unitedafa.org/news/details.aspx?id=8453

Quoting UA444 (Reply 41):
Never saw Richard Anderson lay-off NW employees while hiring new DL ones to do the same damn thing

Talk to the F/A union about that one...AFA has been the one holding up progress on a joint contract not UA.

[Edited 2014-06-13 19:55:04]

catiii · Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 41):

Richard Anderson also didn't have to deal with a militant AFA that consistently puts its own agenda ahead of the best interests of its membership. But you conveniently left that out...

[Edited 2014-06-13 20:02:23]

MaverickM11 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting catiii (Reply 43):
Shrinking to stay profitable? So I suppose when DL makes seasonal adjustments that's not a good thing? Or when US does it? Or AA? Or are you just taking cheap shots at UA?

DL's transatlantic network is the most seasonal by far--it's 75% bigger in the Summer peak than the winter trough in terms of seats, versus around 50% for AA and maybe a third for UA...

MAH4546 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 42):
Well there's also more secondary markets like MVD CNF BSB that they can explore but given Brazil's economic slow down I don't think the latter 2 are anywhere near the horizon

There's not much to explore other than maybe EWR-CNF, but that's from an airlines that won't bother with EWR-GIG.

Though even with Brazil's slowdown, demand between the U.S. and Brazil is anything but slowing down - TAM and AA just keep adding flights, and they keep going out full.

How is MVD or BSB going to work when 75%+ of the market is Florida?

jetblue1965 · Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 47):

you would've bet that MIA-NRT comes online earlier than IAH-SCL and would've lost the bet, so don't just look at raw demand figures as of today to judge a route's potential

jfkgig · Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:10 am

Very disappointing that they apparently will not be adding EWR-GIG this year. Fares on this route were sky high all throughout the Northern Winter -- and quite high even after peak season ended. I would be curious to understand the business rationale for not participating in what is a very profitable oligopoly route for AA and TAM, with the potential advantage of being the only carrier to GIG from EWR.

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