Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
gilesdavies
Topic Author
Posts: 2331
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:01 pm

I am a couple of weeks behind, but was reading this evening about US Airways new routes MAN-CLT and EDI-PHL launching this summer, and just got me looking at how much more extensive the US Airways network is to Europe than that of American, who they are merging with...

American have very much focussed their routes to Europe via LHR and MAD, with a few additional routes to other major European cities, but to feed onward European traffic through BA or IB.

With US Airways now coming under the One World alliance, does their move place a threat to BA with transatlantic traffic moving away from LHR as a transit point to the likes of CLT and PHL?

My thinking, is that with US Airways obviously operating to far more destinations in the USA via their hubs, than BA operate from at LHR, passengers who would have flown from their European city to Heathrow, then to a city in the USA and then have a third connection to their final destination, can now cut this down to just two flights... Europe to Philly/Charlotte and then on to their final city, cutting out the hell hole of LHR and still earning FF miles as they have flown with a One World carrier.

BA have never hidden the secret, that many of their Long Haul destinations, including the USA are reliant upon European traffic feeding onto these flights.
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:23 pm

American Airlines serves the following European Cities directly from at least one of the following cities:

DFW, JFK and/or MIA

London
Dusseldorf
Berlin
Paris
Zurich
Milan
Rome
Madrid
Lisbon
Barcelona
Dublin
Manchester
Helsinki
Frankfurt
Brussels

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
with a few additional routes to other major European cities,

A few? Try 13, and that's just what I could name. Certainly I missed some.

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
With US Airways now coming under the One World alliance, does their move place a threat to BA with transatlantic traffic moving away from LHR as a transit point to the likes of CLT and PHL?

I don't understand. BA and AA have X clients, US has Y clients.

If you're traveling TATL your butt can only be in one seat. You're either an X or a Y, you physically cannot be an XY client.

My point is that they each already have their own cutomers they're bringing to the table. If you just brought over all the US planes and routes, then I could see the issues, as all the BA/AA PAX now have access to direct flights. But there are already PAX on those flights, so realistically, for every one pax who now opts for the direct flight that's one customer who now doesn't have a seat on the direct and will get a connecting flight.

What you are saying is that everyone is now going to take direct flights. how do you think that's possible. Even if CLT/PHL direct flights jumped to 100% LF, there are still a large majority of people who are left forced to conenct.
 
planeguy727
Posts: 1055
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:58 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Tue Jun 17, 2014 11:28 pm

Don't forget the AA/BA/IB joint venture. This actually makes US routes more valuable as additional pax paying fares that benefit all in the TA joint venture agreement.

It can also be spun into metal neutral marketing, bringing choice for non-UK based travelers that have been using BA flights with the LHR cx.
I want to live in an old and converted 727...
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:30 am

US has a pretty damned robust network out of PHL:

SNN, DUB, GLA, EDI, MAN, LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA MUC, ZRH, VCE, FCO, ATH, BCN, MAD, BRU, and LIS

Thats a lot of cities.

[Edited 2014-06-17 18:31:45]
 
MSYPI7185
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:44 am

US also flies to TLV from PHL
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 5831
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:44 am

Isn't the addition of the US TATL network to BA/AA a nice relief valve for BA at LHR? They now have more options to move traffic through while freeing up some connecting capacity through LHR and with the J/V in place, its still pounds-in-pocket for BA.
"My soul is in the sky". -Pyramus- A Midsummer's Night Dream
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:49 am

Quoting MSYPI7185 (Reply 4):
US also flies to TLV from PHL

Yah, I excluded that owing to its being more of a middle east destination.

I'm guessing that we'll see Berlin and Helsinki being added.....A lot of cities needing a lot of lift and a lot of gates.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:56 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 1):
Berlin

I don't think AA flies Berlin....

Quoting bchandl (Reply 1):
Brussels

Here neither...
 
TWA85
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:06 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:03 am

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 2):

In addition, AA and BA share revenue on all Trans-Atlantic flights regardless of which airline operates the flight. So even if (pretty big if) more passengers are flying on the new AA; BA still collects revenue from them.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:26 am

I was doing a little surfing: AA appears to have at least 38 daily flights to Europe from North America: 12 from JFK, 1 from BOS, 1 from RDU, 1 from SJU, 6 from MIA, 10 from ORD, 6 from DFW, and 1 from LAX. About 1/3 are 777 with the rest being mostly 767 and some 757.

I've not had a chance to look at US, but I'm going to guess they have between 25 and 30 daily flights with everything from 757s, 767s, A330-200s and A-330-300s.

A lot of flights for one carrier.
 
razorbackfan
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:36 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:12 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 1):
American Airlines serves the following European Cities directly from at least one of the following cities:

DFW, JFK and/or MIA

London
Dusseldorf
Berlin
Paris
Zurich
Milan
Rome
Madrid
Lisbon
Barcelona
Dublin
Manchester
Helsinki
Frankfurt
Brussels

AA doesn't fly to Berlin, Lisbon, or Brussels.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3304
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:37 am

with BA moving to a 30 inch seat pitch in CE the US network may prove to be a good thing, there is zero chance of me sitting on a flight from LAS - LHR, connecting to an inferior product, when I can one stop it in PHL flying domestic first then US/AA business.

A side thought, who would have thought the day would come when a US airline would offer a better product than BA
.
 
user444555
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:47 am

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 8):

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 2):

In addition, AA and BA share revenue on all Trans-Atlantic flights regardless of which airline operates the flight. So even if (pretty big if) more passengers are flying on the new AA; BA still collects revenue from them.

Yes, but before the merger, BA got almost half of all TATL revenue because they had more flights and pax. I heard this was recently recalculated but I have not heard the outcome. If anyone on here knows, please share. One of the things I liked about the merger was the increase in European flights. US served more different cities than AA and UA and DL did also. This puts AA on equal ground with the other legacies. I hope the flights remain.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting user444555 (Reply 12):

Yes, but before the merger, BA got almost half of all TATL revenue because they had more flights and pax. I heard this was recently recalculated but I have not heard the outcome. If anyone on here knows, please share. One of the things I liked about the merger was the increase in European flights. US served more different cities than AA and UA and DL did also. This puts AA on equal ground with the other legacies. I hope the flights remain.

Despite the JV and revenue sharing, BA is going to see a net loss in passenger volume on their LHR-Europe flights as a result of the AA/US merger and the big boost in direct USA-Europe flights from PHL and to a smaller extent CLT.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 11):

with BA moving to a 30 inch seat pitch in CE the US network may prove to be a good thing, there is zero chance of me sitting on a flight from LAS - LHR, connecting to an inferior product, when I can one stop it in PHL flying domestic first then US/AA business.

Unless things change with AAdvantage down the road right now someone flying on a discounted coach ticket would also net more miles with AA/US.

In terms of which airport most people would rather connect, I think its a toss up. BA at LHR has the better lounges and the almost-new T5. Though most of PHL is more spartan the international terminal is really nice/newish and the less congestion probably makes it an easier option, especially in the summer when there are fewer weather delays in the Northeast USA.

[Edited 2014-06-17 22:39:43]
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:57 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
Isn't the addition of the US TATL network to BA/AA a nice relief valve for BA at LHR? They now have more options to move traffic through while freeing up some connecting capacity through LHR and with the J/V in place, its still pounds-in-pocket for BA.

That's very true and opens possibilities for BA to open up more towards the east.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 11):

with BA moving to a 30 inch seat pitch in CE the US network may prove to be a good thing, there is zero chance of me sitting on a flight from LAS - LHR, connecting to an inferior product, when I can one stop it in PHL flying domestic first then US/AA business.

If you are really content to spend several hours in domestic F instead of a proper lie flat seat, just to avoid a short EU hop in a 30 inch seat, go ahead. I find that rather absurd. Especially since BA moving to 30 inch in CE was just a rumor and not official, there are plenty European airlines with that free middle seat concept in J, and many have more leg room in those rows than in the back.
 
vlad1971
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:48 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:13 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 14):
If you are really content to spend several hours in domestic F instead of a proper lie flat seat, just to avoid a short EU hop in a 30 inch seat, go ahead. I find that rather absurd. Especially since BA moving to 30 inch in CE was just a rumor and not official, there are plenty European airlines with that free middle seat concept in J, and many have more leg room in those rows than in the back.

It is confirmed already :
http://www.thebasource.com/british-a...shorthaul-airbus-reconfigurations/
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 3):
US has a pretty damned robust network out of PHL:

SNN, DUB, GLA, EDI, MAN, LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA MUC, ZRH, VCE, FCO, ATH, BCN, MAD, BRU, and LIS

Thats a lot of cities.

True, but we don't know how many of these are viable just with local O&D traffic at the European end. FRA, MUC, ZRH, ATH, BRU, and LIS are all hubs for the local *A carrier, and this feed will be lost. As against this maybe more of the traffic to the European cities might be routed through PHL instead of, say JFK and a connection at LHR or MAD. I suspect even the airlines won't be able to make a definite decision until the end of the summer, and ATH for example is seasonal anyway.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3304
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:16 am

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 14):
If you are really content to spend several hours in domestic F instead of a proper lie flat seat, just to avoid a short EU hop in a 30 inch seat, go ahead. I find that rather absurd. Especially since BA moving to 30 inch in CE was just a rumor and not official, there are plenty European airlines with that free middle seat concept in J, and many have more leg room in those rows than in the back.

As I tend not to sleep on west coast- Europe flights (my work schedule means I have strange sleep hours) I am more than happy to spend 4-5 hours sitting in a domestic 1st seat, then catch a nap on the trans Atlantic portion.

I will admit though, I am probably in the minority.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2918
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:45 am

I would say there are upsides and downsides. While the US capacity will dilute BA's share of the joint venture, if the US services generate enough profits they may stand to gain in £ terms. A rising tide lifts all boats.
From a network point of view, more direct flights to more destinations is a good thing and may make the BA network as a whole and oneworld alliance more marketable, especially to corporates. The larger network may also allow them to revenue manage more creatively. Pushing more or less connecting traffic through alternate connecting points to maximise O&D traffic.
 
iceman44
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:24 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:59 am

US's numbers on the CLT-MAN route are horrible. Operated by a 752 the only time the numbers are over 100 is on the weekends. Iv seen one flight as low as 31 POB
 
jfk777
Posts: 7454
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:09 pm

USairways CLT and PHL schedule will change from its heavy FRA schedule to something closer to IB and BA. US has not increased flights to LHR yet but that has to be coming. One flight from each CLT & PHL to LHR seems light.
 
boberito6589
Posts: 370
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:09 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting Iceman44 (Reply 19):
US's numbers on the CLT-MAN route are horrible. Operated by a 752 the only time the numbers are over 100 is on the weekends. Iv seen one flight as low as 31 POB

What? Todays flight is sold out and both tomorrow and Friday are almost sold out, perhaps you were watching the flights on a day of terrible thunderstorms and thus a ton of misconnects?
 
Sinlock
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:55 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:37 pm

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 13):
In terms of which airport most people would rather connect, I think its a toss up. BA at LHR has the better lounges and the almost-new T5. Though most of PHL is more spartan the international terminal is really nice/newish and the less congestion probably makes it an easier option, especially in the summer when there are fewer weather delays in the Northeast USA.

This is a very A.net centric view. With the exception of true frequent flyers most of the traveling public spend little time in the airport and likely have no way of accessing premium lounges. Many people can't even figure out how to even travel efficiently, I can't tell you how many people I've heard bragging about saving $42 dollars on their tickets but added a 4 1/2 hour layover to their family vacation.
Many of us here love exploring airports and so do I, but in a few weeks I'll get off a cramped US 757 in EDI and will not have a single regret about not queuing through LHR customs just to get on another flight.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 22):
This is a very A.net centric view. With the exception of true frequent flyers most of the traveling public spend little time in the airport and likely have no way of accessing premium lounges.

The very frequent fliers and the crowd that accesses the premium lounges are generally the most lucrative, hence why their importance is absolutely greater for network airlines despite their lower volume. That is not an a.net centric view, it is a tried and true airline management strategy.
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 1:38 pm

It just shows you Doug Parker vs Old AA thinking. OLD AA was dropping routes and just flying more to OW hubs and letting their OW partners do more of the flying. DP wants to keep the people on his metal as much as possible.
 
superjeff
Posts: 1408
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting andy33 (Reply 16):
True, but we don't know how many of these are viable just with local O&D traffic at the European end. FRA, MUC, ZRH, ATH, BRU, and LIS are all hubs for the local *A carrier, and this feed will be lost. As against this maybe more of the traffic to the European cities might be routed through PHL instead of, say JFK and a connection at LHR or MAD. I suspect even the airlines won't be able to make a definite decision until the end of the summer, and ATH for example is seasonal anyway.

Actually, US has been flying most of these routes for years. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't still be flying these routes. And the AA executive group is the old US leadership, so they know this.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:26 pm

Sort of. US flies a lot of those routes on a -very- highly seasonal basis. As in, some of them are lucky to be flow for five months out of the year.

While many of the European routes out of PHL are long-standing routes, many of the CLT routes are new routes and believed by many to be going the way of the dodo bird.
 
usairways85
Posts: 4218
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 25):
Actually, US has been flying most of these routes for years. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't still be flying these routes. And the AA executive group is the old US leadership, so they know this.

And US had been in *A for years, almost 10 years to be exact. There is no doubt that even though US was not part of the *A ATI they benefited from *A lift to these EU *A hubs. What remains to be seen is how much?
 
spud757
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:20 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:05 pm

So will BA have their code on US flights to MAN?

The direct A330 service to/from PHL may well appeal to OW flyers rather than a connection over LHR (as lovely as T5 is).
 
Sinlock
Posts: 1631
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:55 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 23):
The very frequent fliers and the crowd that accesses the premium lounges are generally the most lucrative, hence why their importance is absolutely greater for network airlines despite their lower volume. That is not an a.net centric view, it is a tried and true airline management strategy.

I'm not arguing the value of Premium Lounges,but they are not targeted of the once or twice a year flyer and much of their revenue never passes over to their host airport.
LHR processes close to 200k passengers a day I'd guess the number that make use of the premium lounges does not exceed 15% of those passengers.
With enplanement fees, gift shops, £12 sandwich's, ect. The typical passenger brings a lot of revenue to an airport that doesn't have to be shared with airlines and (FF) credit card company's.

Sorry for drifting from the topic.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 26):

Sort of. US flies a lot of those routes on a -very- highly seasonal basis. As in, some of them are lucky to be flow for five months out of the year.

While many of the European routes out of PHL are long-standing routes, many of the CLT routes are new routes and believed by many to be going the way of the dodo bird.

And because they are flown seasonally is why they are successful. The demand/yields to/from Europe in the summer vis-a-vis the winter (save for 2 weeks in Christmas) is like comparing day and night.

Time will tell about the CLT routes that were announced post-merger, whose main reason for existence is the substantial southern AA network feed from places like DFW and MIA that do not have their own service to those cities in Europe (all except BCN, which has very heavy cruise traffic and is also served from MIA).
 
oc2dc
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 4:38 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:47 pm

Quoting washingtonflyer (Reply 9):
1 from SJU

AA doesn't operate any flights from SJU to Europe...

Quoting bchandl (Reply 1):
American Airlines serves the following European Cities directly from at least one of the following cities:

DFW, JFK and/or MIA

London
Dusseldorf
Berlin
Paris
Zurich
Milan
Rome
Madrid
Lisbon
Barcelona
Dublin
Manchester
Helsinki
Frankfurt
Brussels

AA doesn't operate to Berlin, Lisbon or Brussels... Additionally, Helsinki and Dusseldorf are connected through ORD, not the other hubs you listed here.
I'm not complaining, I'm critiquing...
 
migair54
Posts: 2464
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 4:50 pm

The only problem for BA at LHR is the same LHR and the endless issues with the slots and lack of possibilities to expand. I´m sure if BA could they would expand out of LHR a lot so BA network could do more non stop flying to places where now they have to rely on connecting airlines. So I think US network is complementing BA.

Quoting spud757 (Reply 28):
The direct A330 service to/from PHL may well appeal to OW flyers rather than a connection over LHR (as lovely as T5 is).

It is, of course and also open the possibility to connect to any place in AA/US network via PHL and avoid going to LHR then another hub then final destination.

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 23):
The very frequent fliers and the crowd that accesses the premium lounges are generally the most lucrative, hence why their importance is absolutely greater for network airlines despite their lower volume. That is not an a.net centric view, it is a tried and true airline management strategy.

True, lucrative for airlines. but big volume of pax is more lucrative for airports, indirectly, using the services, coffee shop, restaurants, shops, services, all these services pay rent to airports for the spaces they use and with high demand prices go up and more spaces are rented.
 
washingtonflyer
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:50 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 31):
AA doesn't operate any flights from SJU to Europe...

You;re right. I didn't notice that SJU-BCN was a one-stopper through JFK. Shows up on the map, but the details show the flight as stopping en route.
 
user444555
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 18):
I would say there are upsides and downsides. While the US capacity will dilute BA's share of the joint venture, if the US services generate enough profits they may stand to gain in £ terms. A rising tide lifts all boats.
From a network point of view, more direct flights to more destinations is a good thing and may make the BA network as a whole and oneworld alliance more marketable, especially to corporates. The larger network may also allow them to revenue manage more creatively. Pushing more or less connecting traffic through alternate connecting points to maximise O&D traffic.

I agree and have long felt that AA's lag behind UA DL and even US in Europe was inappropriate for an airline of its size, pre-or-post merger. IMO these additions are long overdue for this very reason. I would think many of the corporate frequent flyers don't want to almost always connect in LHR to get to cities in Europe other than LHR, CDG, or MAD, which is there the bulk of PMAA's flights went. I would think BA might not be too happy about this but I agree this is better for the alliance as a whole.

Now if OW could just do something about getting pax to JNB that avoids a 2 day trip through LHR for most US travelers.
 
user444555
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 25):
Actually, US has been flying most of these routes for years. If they weren't profitable, they wouldn't still be flying these routes. And the AA executive group is the old US leadership, so they know this.

An employee who went to one of Parker's town halls told me he asked Parker about the routes because of PMAA's history of letting BA provide the lift, and Parker said the European flights do well. I also read somewhere that PHL TLV is one of their most profitable. Has anyone heard if any progress has been made in resolving PMAA's dispute with the government in Israel?
 
gilesdavies
Topic Author
Posts: 2331
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting spud757 (Reply 28):
So will BA have their code on US flights to MAN?

The direct A330 service to/from PHL may well appeal to OW flyers rather than a connection over LHR (as lovely as T5 is).

That is a very good question, I would imagine so and BA would be eager to have some sort of revenue sharing on that route. Do BA get revenue and codeshare on AA's existing routes to ORD and JFK from MAN?

I think the MAN-PHL route will attract a number of OneWorld frequent flyers, who would usually fly through LHR and on to BA metal to the USA. From what I understand this route has always been one of US Airways strongest performing routes to Europe from Philly and wouldn't even be surprised if a second rotation with a 757 is added in a few years during the summer months.

BA and LHR have been suffering for a number of years, from passengers from other regions of the UK now not flying through London and choosing to connect through other worldwide hubs to complete their journeys. This has until now primarily been to Asia and Australia with the likes of the Middle Eastern carriers, flying from five UK airports outside of the London area, for example with Manchester supporting 2x A380s and a 777W daily with Emirates, 12x 777W with Etihad a week and Qatar flying 10x weekly with A330's.

With Qatar now been a member of OneWorld and launching services from Edinburgh too, they are likely to chip away at BA's LHR hub even more, attracting the loyal BA frequent flyers, while still earning points.

So makes me think if something similar could work on a smaller scale at PHL with US/AA tunnelling traffic through the hub? But cynic in me thinks that with AA and BA been so loyal at LHR, they will not allow this to happen and restrict capacity out of MAN with their aircraft and funnel all excess traffic through LHR.
 
ORDTLV2414
Posts: 451
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:02 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:51 pm

I think it will benefit BA in freeing up some seats at JFK for O&D and routing people through PHL.

I think what will be most interesting to see is if the new AA keeps FRA.

I travel alot between ORD-TLV, and when i fly (I'm an AA FF) I was always routed ORD-LHR-TLV (AA/BA), ORD-MAD-TLV (AA/IB) or when the codeshare still existed with LY ORD-JFK/EWR-TLV (AA/LY). I wonder if AA.com will now offer me ORD-PHL-TLV (AA) as the cheapest option.
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:52 pm

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20140618/2055Z/KDFW/EDDF

Quoting spud757 (Reply 28):
So will BA have their code on US flights to MAN?

AA and BA have a TATL JV, and US to MAN will be an actual "aa" flight soon.

It's not like anything AA is absorbing from UA is somehow excluded from the JV.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 27):

I agree that their Europe system has been basically a Star reliant system. Heavily dependent on LH. But BA can be an ok substitute. This does shake US' Europe network to the very core. The real profits will come at LHR now rather than Germany. I expect FRA and MUC to be reduced to A332 perhaps one each from PHL and CLT daily. And LHR grown. The rest is mainly unaffected.

I think old AA (for lack of a better word) will be more adventurous in Europe as US has been. There is money in summer flows especially. Huge gobs of money that p2p flights can unlock.
 
user444555
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:45 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
I think old AA (for lack of a better word) will be more adventurous in Europe as US has been. There is money in summer flows especially. Huge gobs of money that p2p flights can unlock.



I agree and I do not know why they did not start before the merger. The only recent additions are HEL and a return to DUS, but in the same time period they stopped flying to BRU the administrative capital of Europe.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:58 pm

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 29):
With enplanement fees, gift shops, £12 sandwich's, ect. The typical passenger brings a lot of revenue to an airport that doesn't have to be shared with airlines and (FF) credit card company's.
Quoting migair54 (Reply 32):
True, lucrative for airlines. but big volume of pax is more lucrative for airports, indirectly, using the services, coffee shop, restaurants, shops, services, all these services pay rent to airports for the spaces they use and with high demand prices go up and more spaces are rented.

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought we were discussing the impact on BA (and AA) of the US network, and not the airports' revenues.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
I agree that their Europe system has been basically a Star reliant system. Heavily dependent on LH. But BA can be an ok substitute. This does shake US' Europe network to the very core. The real profits will come at LHR now rather than Germany.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't think that the US network to Europe was "Star-reliant" to most of these airports:

SNN, DUB, GLA, EDI, MAN, LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA MUC, ZRH, VCE, FCO, ATH, BCN, MAD, BRU, and LIS

Out of the 18 destinations, only 5 are *A hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, LIS, BRU). And not many people are predicting a withdraw from more than 2 of those.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:41 am

You have to look at it as seats per year, not just the city names. LIS and FRA are not equal. I think you will find they had a Star backbone and the rest (capacity wise) is frosting. And MAN a solid station on its own there. Maybe to be expanded now that BA is a friend?
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:40 am

Most people do not seem to understand the most important fact to answering this question.

BA is in a Oneworld JVA with AA (which now includes US officially), IB, and FY. This is a revenue sharing JV covering all of the EU/ Switzerland / Norway between the USA and its territories. Each airline gets revenue from any airline in the JVA operating a flight between Europe and America. No one on here will know the specifics of the revenue arrangement between the airlines, but we do know it is a revenue sharing one.

So to answer your question, of course this is to the benefit of BA. As BA looks at it, as a result of metal neutrality, a US pax flying FRA-PHL is a BA pax, therefore it is to the actual (financial)benefit of BA for a pax to choose to fly US rather than UA for example, as BA gets revenue from that decision.

To answer some other questions:
Yes, BA flight numbers are on UK-USA US operated services
US shall soon become AA officially, when this happens, AA codeshare (and not US) will appear on all JVA flights
Therefore, after AA/US officially merge, AA, BA, IB, and FY flight numbers will be on all services operated by any of these airlines operating within the JVA range.

[Edited 2014-06-18 19:45:43]
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
You have to look at it as seats per year, not just the city names. LIS and FRA are not equal. I think you will find they had a Star backbone and the rest (capacity wise) is frosting. And MAN a solid station on its own there. Maybe to be expanded now that BA is a friend?

You really think that LHR, CDG, MAD, BCN, and AMS are just frosting capacity-wise? As far as FRA you also have to keep in mind that LH operates (and has for years) their own FRA-PHL-FRA flight year round, so it is not like they were feeding most of their traffic to US.

[Edited 2014-06-18 20:24:30]
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:57 am

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 41):
SNN, DUB, GLA, EDI, MAN, LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA MUC, ZRH, VCE, FCO, ATH, BCN, MAD, BRU, and LIS

Out of the 18 destinations, only 5 are *A hubs (FRA, MUC, ZRH, LIS, BRU). And not many people are predicting a withdraw from more than 2 of those.

You forgot ATH, which is most definitely a *A hub, just not a long-haul one. A3 and its subsidiary OA has a network that doesn't just cover Greek domestic flights but cities throughout the surrounding region too.
 
user444555
Posts: 383
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:32 am

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 43):
Most people do not seem to understand the most important fact to answering this question.

Yes but BA will be getting a lower percentage of revenue from each ticket sold and AA will be getting more with more ASM's across the Atlantic. Maybe it won't change the total amount of revenue much as there will be revenue from more total flights. That is also an important part of the equation.
 
OP3000
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:45 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:55 am

Quoting andy33 (Reply 45):

I forgot ATH, though that does not change the earlier point about the US Europe network not being mostly Star dependent.
 
jumpjets
Posts: 1505
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:17 pm

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:09 am

Quoting user444555 (Reply 12):

Yes, but before the merger, BA got almost half of all TATL revenue because they had more flights and pax. I heard this was recently recalculated but I have not heard the outcome

With the inclusion of the US TATL flights in the JV the 'revenue cake' for the JV will have grown and the proportion of flights actually flown by AA/US metal within the JV has increased. All other things being equal therefore you would expect BAs proportion of that cake to decrease - but as the cake is now that much bigger it is likely that the absolute revenues that BA [and IB and FY (and am I right in thinking RJ?)] earn won't be reduced.

As to whether the inclusion of US is bad for BA I imagine there will be some routes on which they will benefit and some on which they will lose - so for example if I am a US customer flying LHR-AUS I may chose to fly direct with BA rather than change in CLT; if on the other hand I am a BA FF flying from say FCO or CDG to PHL I may now chose the US direct option rather than transit through LHR.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Is US Airways Network To Europe Bad For BA At LHR?

Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:43 am

Quoting Iceman44 (Reply 19):
US's numbers on the CLT-MAN route are horrible. Operated by a 752 the only time the numbers are over 100 is on the weekends. Iv seen one flight as low as 31 POB

     

Quoting Boberito6589 (Reply 21):
What? Todays flight is sold out and both tomorrow and Friday are almost sold out, perhaps you were watching the flights on a day of terrible thunderstorms and thus a ton of misconnects?


  

Considering the route has been only going for a matter of weeks, loads are better than I personally would have expected. There have been already 2 days on which it has been up gauged to a B762 to accommodate an overbooking situation.

Horrible..? Yeah, right...  

Rgds
Flying around India

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos