AA: 787s To Asia; No 330neo; 320neo Engine Soon

LAXintl · Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:30 pm

At yesterdays American Airlines hosted leadership council event, Derek Kerr CFO had a few things to say about the combined carriers fleeting.

He reconfirmed the carrier plans to receive its first 787s in November 2014. They will initially operate on domestic flights between Dallas and Chicago to build operational experience before being assigned to Asian routes.
The smaller capacity of the type combined with its expected operating cost should aid AA in producing improved margins across the Pacific

Also mentioned AA was not reviewing the A330NEO concept, and the carriers large order book of 787-8/9 and A350s should be sufficient to carry AA forward.

Lastly the decision on A32xNEO engine selection was due this summer. Both PW GTF and CFM LEAP have compelling cases and almost equal offerings, so any decision likely could come down to commercial terms.

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:33 pm

More information can be found here:

http://leehamnews.com/2014/06/19/ame...hubbing-returning-to-peak-banking/

AA767400 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:35 pm

Will be interesting to see what will be the first Pacific route. The rumor that CDG would be the first intercontinental route - was always odd to me.

Now is the first frame 788, or 789?

commavia · Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:36 pm

Doesn't seem like there's really any true "news" here, at least with respect to the 787. Anyone paying attention could have guessed - even before the merger - that Asia would figure prominently with AA's 787 utilization. That's where that plane's capabilities and economics are going to have the biggest positive impact, and it also happens to be where AA needs the help of that positive impact most.

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 2):
Now is the first frame 788, or 789?

787-8

Miami · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
More information can be found here:

http://leehamnews.com/2014/06/19/ame...hubbing-returning-to-peak-banking/

Thanks for the article..

I saw this quote "Re-hubbing will occur this year at Chicago, Miami and Dallas."

What does "re-hubbing" mean, exactly?

Thanks.

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:21 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 5):

Switching from rolling hub to peak hubs. Sacrificing efficiency to maximize connectivity.

727LOVER · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 5):
What does "re-hubbing" mean, exactly?

Going back to banked from rolling, I'm guessing.

Miami · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 6):
Switching from rolling hub to peak hubs. Sacrificing efficiency to maximize connectivity.

Great! Thanks, I appreciate your help.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):
Going back to banked from rolling, I'm guessing.

Thank you!

[Edited 2014-06-19 09:24:11]

deltaffindfw · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 5):
"Re-hubbing will occur this year at Chicago, Miami and Dallas."

I'm not thrilled about this. Guess we go back to the days of sitting around waiting for a gate and long lines to take off at DFW - and those are on good weather days...

SXDFC · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Any idea what C/N and registrations the 787s will wear?

yyz717 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 4):
Quoting AA767400 (Reply 2):
Now is the first frame 788, or 789?
787-8

atbd.org reports that the first 787 for AA will be a 789 to be delivered in November. The first 788 is not due until 2017.

bw50505 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:03 pm

According to nyc787.blogspot.com 's 787 production list, the first 3 for American will all be 787-8 and are to be registered:

N800AN
N801AC
N802AN

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AtfsHdXQ5rl9dFp4b1hETmNQNzN0b2dSUlRNWEFOOVE&single=true&gid=2&output=html

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 11):
atbd.org reports that the first 787 for AA will be a 789 to be delivered in November. The first 788 is not due until 2017.

That information has to be incorrect. AA converted a few -9s into -8s to accelerate the 787 deliveries.

LAXintl · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:15 pm

Considering they are looking at running DFW-ORD for familiarization flights, appears like the first 787 crew base will be either DFW or ORD. So the Asia flying they are looking at replacing would be from one of those cities.

ripcordd · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:19 pm

They will prob start with Chicago where they face the most competition and where the plane can make the biggest impact to the bottom line. NRT/PEK/PVG all 787 very nice to see that

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14):
Considering they are looking at running DFW-ORD for familiarization flights, appears like the first 787 crew base will be either DFW or ORD. So the Asia flying they are looking at replacing would be from one of those cities.

ORD-PEK and LAX-PVG should be top priority for Pacific 787. They can run ORD-LAX repositioning flights to facilitate the crews. Exciting to see new domestic widebodies.

ERJ170 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:30 pm

Ohhh.. so guess we won't see the 788 on RDU-LHR.. that's kinda sad.. but oh well..

dfwguy81 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Also mentioned AA was not reviewing the A330NEO concept, and the carriers large order book of 787-8/9 and A350s should be sufficient to carry AA forward.

What is the distinction in role that the 788/789 will fill in the AA network vs the A350?

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting DFWguy81 (Reply 18):
What is the distinction in role that the 788/789 will fill in the AA network vs the A350?

The A350 can hold more seats.

dfwguy81 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
The A350 can hold more seats.

So effectively use the 788 as a kind of 763 backfill on thinner routes (but potentially longer). Routes like DFW-PVG, RDU-LHR, etc. Then the A350 as more of a 772 replacement, leaving the 77W for the handful of high density 3-class routes?

LAXdude1023 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:20 pm

Based on the current Asia routes, I would predict the following:

DFW-NRT: 77W
LAX-NRT: High J 772
ORD-NRT: High J 772

DFW-ICN: High J 772

DFW-PVG: 787
LAX-PVG: 787
ORD-PVG: 787

ORD-PEK: 787

DFW-HKG: ? I dont know if the 77W will work for it or if a 787 will need to be called in. Im assuming a 789 will need to do it because the 788 doesnt have the legs I dont think.

Boeing778X · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 12):
According to nyc787.blogspot.com 's 787 production list, the first 3 for American will all be 787-8 and are to be registered:

N800AN
N801AC
N802AN

N8**A*
I like it! Appropriate to number them in the 800s

dfwguy81 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
Based on the current Asia routes, I would predict the following:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
DFW-ICN: High J 772

Interesting that you think DFW-ICN would rate a high J 772. Is that because the premium demand is there, or more a statement about the lack of sufficient 788 or low J 772 frames?

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting DFWguy81 (Reply 20):
So effectively use the 788 as a kind of 763 backfill on thinner routes (but potentially longer). Routes like DFW-PVG, RDU-LHR, etc. Then the A350 as more of a 772 replacement, leaving the 77W for the handful of high density 3-class routes?

Something like that indeed. The 787-8 can replace 763s and/or can be used to open new long-haul routes. In the longer term, the 787-8 can also replace the A330-200s from US Airways. The 787-9 can replace 9-abreast 777-200ER aircraft on a 1:1 basis while the A350-900 can be used for growth. The aircraft also fits nicely in between the 787-9 and 777-300ER.

There is a bit overlap but we must not forget that the A350 order is a "left over" from US Airways.

RandWkop · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:38 pm

Interesting comments about the 772ERs. I wonder how they will compare to the US 333s on similar missions.

dfwguy81 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 24):

Makes sense. Will be an exciting change for AA to have some options and diversity in its long-haul fleet

lightsaber · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Lastly the decision on A32xNEO engine selection was due this summer. Both PW GTF and CFM LEAP have compelling cases and almost equal offerings, so any decision likely could come down to commercial terms.

GE will have an easier time on commercial terms. So if it is that equal... I do not expect Pratt to win.

Quoting deltaffindfw (Reply 9):

Quoting Miami (Reply 5):
"Re-hubbing will occur this year at Chicago, Miami and Dallas."

I'm not thrilled about this. Guess we go back to the days of sitting around waiting for a gate and long lines to take off at DFW - and those are on good weather days...

I remember the waits/delays when thunderstorms went through DFW... I guess they'll be back.

Lightsaber

jcwr56 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:51 pm

I wouldn't be too shocked to see ORD be the primary base for the 787's for both Tatl and Tpac operations.

jetblue1965 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
ORD-NRT: High J 772

High J on a 5x weekly route? How about Low J but make it daily again ?

LAXdude1023 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting Jetblue1965 (Reply 29):
High J on a 5x weekly route? How about Low J but make it daily again ?

Thats a fair point.

Quoting DFWguy81 (Reply 23):
Interesting that you think DFW-ICN would rate a high J 772. Is that because the premium demand is there, or more a statement about the lack of sufficient 788 or low J 772 frames?

Its a little of both, but mainly the former. DFW-ICN has little F demand, but has had no problems filling the J cabin. Another important thing to remember is that DFW-ICN is actually a huge local market. Its larger than DFW-NRT/FRA/CDG. In fact only DFW-LHR/MEX/CUN are larger than DFW-ICN internationally. Its even larger than DFW-YYZ. A high J config is well within the reach of it.

dfwguy81 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 30):
Its a little of both, but mainly the former. DFW-ICN has little F demand, but has had no problems filling the J cabin. Another important thing to remember is that DFW-ICN is actually a huge local market. Its larger than DFW-NRT/FRA/CDG. In fact only DFW-LHR/MEX/CUN are larger than DFW-ICN internationally. Its even larger than DFW-YYZ. A high J config is well within the reach of it.

Good point. Off the top of my head, DFW-ICN is one of only two long-haul non-stop routes that AA competes with anyone on (the other being DFW-FRA). Once KE upgrades to a 77W later this year, I would guess DFW-ICN is second only to DFW-LHR in terms of daily seats.

BN727227Ultra · Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
They will initially operate on domestic flights between Dallas and Chicago to build operational experience

I'll save my AAdvantage miles for an OMA-DFW-ORD-OMA RT...

LAXdude1023 · Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting DFWguy81 (Reply 31):
Good point. Off the top of my head, DFW-ICN is one of only two long-haul non-stop routes that AA competes with anyone on (the other being DFW-FRA). Once KE upgrades to a 77W later this year, I would guess DFW-ICN is second only to DFW-LHR in terms of daily seats.

Thats very possible, but I was speaking of O&D. DFW-ICN has more O&D than even DFW-FRA or DFW-YYZ.

RickNRoll · Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:22 pm

Does he not believe that the GTF figures are as good as they are claimed to be?

KarelXWB · Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 34):
Does he not believe that the GTF figures are as good as they are claimed to be?

Performance is one thing, the overall package deal (maintenance, support, financing) can still be better.

delawareusa · Thu Jun 19, 2014 9:45 pm

787 would be ideal to start the long promised PHL-Asia service.

bchandl · Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Lastly the decision on A32xNEO engine selection was due this summer. Both PW GTF and CFM LEAP have compelling cases and almost equal offerings, so any decision likely could come down to commercial terms.

Smartest thing he said all day. Even if it's not true that they're all on equal footing, playing it off as if they are means they can go into negotiations with an engine supplier with all the leverage in the situation with the Engine Manu thinking they have to basically meet all their demands because it's a big order and someone else wants it.

TrijetsRMissed · Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
He reconfirmed the carrier plans to receive its first 787s in November 2014. They will initially operate on domestic flights between Dallas and Chicago to build operational experience before being assigned to Asian routes.

Any idea how long they will last on the DFW-ORD-DFW runs and how many frequencies? Six months or so? It would be nice to see a daily 787 become a staple, 'Ala the 77E up to about 5 years ago.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Both PW GTF and CFM LEAP have compelling cases and almost equal offerings, so any decision likely could come down to commercial terms.

Would like to see Pratt somehow pull this off and add another chapter to the AA/PW relationship.

nomorerjs · Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:44 am

Cool. I fly DFW-ORD every 3 weeks and it will be nice to see a widebody on the route again, even if it is short lived. I miss the repositioning T7 and MD11 that left DFW at 1 pm and the 6:30 pm from ORD to DFW.

JoePatroni707 · Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting bw50505 (Reply 12):
N800AN
N801AC
N802AN

AA's internal "nose number" which is what the company goes by will be 8AA, 8AB, 8AC,,,, etc

HKG212 · Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
Asia would figure prominently with AA's 787 utilization.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
Based on the current Asia routes, I would predict the following:

What about NEW Asian routes?

MIA-NRT?
JFK-PVG?
PHL-NRT?

Real shame they never resumed JFK-NRT after the HND debacle, and now have no Asian routes to the East Coast.

mel · Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:34 am

I'm curious to see where all the displaced 77Es are going to be sent, once the 787s start replacing them across the Pacific.

uberflieger · Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 15):
They will prob start with Chicago where they face the most competition and where the plane can make the biggest impact to the bottom line

The rumor on A.net was JFK be first in line for the 788, but it very much looks like ORD-ASIA now. Shouldn't American be able to operate ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG with just 3 frames?

ckfred · Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:40 am

When will AA load 787 flying into the ORD-DFW schedule? I'm scheduled to travel ORD-IAH via DFW in November. It would be nice to see a 787 at ORD or DFW, and better to fly one.

hkcanadaexpat · Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:24 am

Quoting ckfred (Reply 44):
When will AA load 787 flying into the ORD-DFW schedule? I'm scheduled to travel ORD-IAH via DFW in November. It would be nice to see a 787 at ORD or DFW, and better to fly one.

Unlikely. Delivery of the frame is due last week of November so won't start flying domestic runs until mid-December.
A

dank · Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 17):

Ohhh.. so guess we won't see the 788 on RDU-LHR.. that's kinda sad.. but oh well..

I'd expect RDU-LHR to be fairly late drop of the 763. First it will require another service to LHR to rotate with and because the demand no the route will probably not warrant the upgrade.

Miami · Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:56 am

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 41):
MIA-NRT?
JFK-PVG?
PHL-NRT?

All that you mentioned is very likely. I think PHL-NRT is a no brainier. Not 100% sure about MIA-NRT.

TWA772LR · Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:13 am

I'm going to guess they will go with the LEAP engine since they are also ordering the MAX and have experience with CFM engines with the 737 and their A319s.

oc2dc · Fri Jun 20, 2014 6:08 am

It sounds like ORD might be the first 787 base. ORD is the perfect candidate for the 787 considering the battle they have to Asia...Especially considering AA can't even do ORD-NRT daily...This will definitely help.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21):
DFW-NRT: 77W
LAX-NRT: High J 772
ORD-NRT: High J 772

Why is everybody using the phrase high and low J? We don't know the 100% official configuration(s) for the 77E yet....Unless someone has something official to present to us...

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