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aircanadaa330
Topic Author
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Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:01 am

After 9/11 I am surprised something like this can happen. Thankfully it was an honest mistake on behalf of the passenger.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...due-to-security-concerns-1.2680602

Story so far;

three hours into Air Canada flight 090 (GRU) the flight was ordered to turn back by Transport Canada. The pilots were given a flight plan that had them staying out of US airspace. This was caused when it was discovered that one of the passengers did not go through security at Cheers;
 
IPFreely
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:17 am

Quoting AirCanadaA330 (Thread starter):
The pilots were given a flight plan that had them staying out of US airspace.

They were very definitely in US airspace both on the way from, and back to, Toronto:

 
aircanadaa330
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 1):
They were very definitely in US airspace both on the way from, and back to, Toronto:

don't kill the messenger...it was reported tonight on the news that they didn't enter US airspace....clearly CBC was wrong
Cheers;
 
lpdal
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:38 am

A very strange routing they had, indeed: OAKVL V265 THORL JHW PSB J61 EMI HUBBS J61 EDDYS ECG AR8 TOMMZ AR8 OXANA L452 KANUX L452 LNHOM L452 JORGG L451 ELMUC G431 DDP G449 ANADA UG449 POS UA324 TIM UA312 STM UZ24 ELDOR UZ24 ISOPI UZ6 NIMKI UZ38 MOPNI MUMDI OPRUT MOXEP

Flightaware page: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20140619/0330Z/CYYZ/CYYZ

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 3):
A very strange routing they had, indeed:

Looks like they avoided the thunderstorms.

What a waste of people's time, energy and money... suspending int'l flights departing YYZ T1, turning the flight around etc. Once they knew the man was on the flight, why not just have crew report anything abnormal (there would be nothing, I bet the man on the flight who was the 'cause' was equally surprised to find out HE was the cause), and just have authorities question the man upon arrival in Sao Paulo?

Instead a big scene was made for a man leaving and re-entering security to smoke a cigarette (following the rules - no smoking inside the terminal). But in some way, security and the airline screwed up... First he somehow returned to the secure area, without being re-screened (apparently), and second, the airline did not prevent him from boarding.

This was a major screw-up at YYZ, and to save face they had to make it look like they were on top of it by bringing the plane back. If it was that much of a security risk, why allow it to fly over populated areas? Why not stay over the Atlantic Ocean, and land at YYT or YQX to have the RCMP meet the flight there?

So either there wasn't a threat, and the flight should have carried on to Sao Paulo, or there was, and it should not have flown over populated areas of the USA and Canada... something doesn't make sense here; it can't be both.



LD4

[Edited 2014-06-19 21:23:18]

[Edited 2014-06-19 21:27:16]
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flyingthe757
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:59 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 4):

Better safe then sorry! If an unattended bag travelled, and they realised after the plane had left, I'd want that plane back as well.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:12 am

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 5):
Better safe then sorry! If an unattended bag travelled, and they realised after the plane had left, I'd want that plane back as well.

"unattended bags" travel every day all the time as people miss-connections/get re-routed while their bags do not; and if the bags are screened properly, it does not matter anyway.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
blueflyer
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:13 am

I wonder what is the reasoning behind recalling the flight. If the passenger was such a threat to the safety of the aircraft, wouldn't a mid-air 180 make him suspect he might have been uncovered and take action?

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 5):
I'd want that plane back as well.

If the concern is over a suspicious piece of luggage, I'd want the plane on the ground as soon as possible. For all you know, the explosive device is on a timer and returning to origin might be all the time necessary for the timer to run its course.
 
flyingthe757
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:31 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 6):

If a bag goes unattended as it miss connected, it goes through a higher security check so is safe to do so.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 8):
If a bag goes unattended as it miss connected, it goes through a higher security check so is safe to do so.

No it actually does not, and bags are not always off loaded, at least not in North America and parts of Europe. My apologies if you were refering to a different part of the world. To be clear the bags get an initial scan, and that is the point, but there is no extra magic with the security theatre.

Cargo is not screened 100% either.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
opethfan
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:20 am

"Let's follow this incompetence with MORE incompetence!"
 
dc10bhx
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:05 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):
Cargo is not screened 100% either.

I can tell you now that cargo is screened (either by use of the Known Consignor procedures where an audit trail is in place verifying the security status of the shipment) or by the goods being screened by the Airline / Handling Agent.

There are very few instances where shipments are not screened (normally by exception due to the nature of the goods being either diplomatic or otherwise excluded from screening). I do not want to go into too many specifics here on an open forum regarding the exceptions. I can tell you however that if someone claims an exception from screening (at least here in the UK) they HAVE GOT to be able to back up their request with valid documentation.
I'm lucky my job is my hobby
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:03 pm

Quoting dc10bhx (Reply 11):
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):
Cargo is not screened 100% either.

I can tell you now that cargo is screened (either by use of the Known Consignor procedures where an audit trail is in place verifying the security status of the shipment) or by the goods being screened by the Airline / Handling Agent.

There are very few instances where shipments are not screened (normally by exception due to the nature of the goods being either diplomatic or otherwise excluded from screening). I do not want to go into too many specifics here on an open forum regarding the exceptions. I can tell you however that if someone claims an exception from screening (at least here in the UK) they HAVE GOT to be able to back up their request with valid documentation.

In the US, and Italy it is not. I will not speak for the other locations.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
RKSofACinUSA
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 4):
Instead a big scene was made for a man leaving and re-entering security to smoke a cigarette (following the rules - no smoking inside the terminal). But in some way, security and the airline screwed up... First he somehow returned to the secure area, without being re-screened (apparently), and second, the airline did not prevent him from boarding.

The airline has nothing to do with security, nor would it have any way to know that this man breached security unless someone told them.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 4):
Why not stay over the Atlantic Ocean, and land at YYT or YQX to have the RCMP meet the flight there?

The crew was definitely out of work hours by the time the flight returned. Even if YYT or YQX could handle an international security breach, there would be no extra crews there to fly them to GRU.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 4:30 pm

Quoting dc10bhx (Reply 11):
There are very few instances where shipments are not screened

Usually things like human organs, blood, emergency lifesaving drugs and human remains are exempt from the inspection process. Then again those shipments would come from legitimate accredited organizations and it would be very difficult to hide something there anyway.
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flyingthe757
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):

Are you telling me (other then reply 14) cargo is going into cargo and customer aircraft having not been screened?
 
cedarjet
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:20 pm

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Why turn the plane back I have no idea. Theatre of the absurd. And the media play along, the headline on the movie clip is "Security scare at YYZ" - really? Scare? The only thing scary about this is the establishment obsession with "security" and peoples' willingness to go along with it.
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:34 pm

What a farce security is in Canada. I suppose you get what you pay for.

On a side note, their track could have had 2 reasons, one is for the line of storms and the other to burn enough fuel off that they could land below their MLW or a combination of the two.
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INFINITI329
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:08 pm

I dont see the purpose of turning the flight around after it already hit international airspace, that just baffles me. Inform the pilot and continue on. This jsut confuses the crap out of me.

Under what authority does Transport Canada have to turn a flight back to city of origin? This the first time I am hearing of an event like this.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 15):
Are you telling me (other then reply 14) cargo is going into cargo and customer aircraft having not been screened?

In the US and Italy, yes, that is no secret. You seem somehow surprised. Even known shippers do not have every box inspected stateside. In fact congress was all up in arms about it for several years due to several GAO reports but the yahoos at the TSA are still worried about phanotom liquids and other non-sense.
“Without seeing Sicily it is impossible to understand Italy.Sicily is the key of everything.”-Goethe "Journey to Italy"
 
Skydrol
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting RKSofACinUSA (Reply 13):
The airline has nothing to do with security, nor would it have any way to know that this man breached security unless someone told them.
Quoting RKSofACinUSA (Reply 13):
The crew was definitely out of work hours by the time the flight returned. Even if YYT or YQX could handle an international security breach, there would be no extra crews there to fly them to GRU.

If crew work hours was the primary concern, then there was no security threat whatsoever.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Why turn the plane back I have no idea. Theatre of the absurd. And the media play along, the headline on the movie clip is "Security scare at YYZ" - really? Scare? The only thing scary about this is the establishment obsession with "security" and peoples' willingness to go along with it.

Isn't that the sad truth!

CATSA lets someone get past security (failure 1), and none of the apparent 'thousands' of security cameras in the Taj Mahal were able to determine where the guy went (failure 2), and he wasn't even trying to hide - he walked to the gate and boarded his flight. He should have been in clear view of surveillance cameras the entire way!
What is the theater for?




LD4
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sat Jun 21, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 18):
Under what authority does Transport Canada have to turn a flight back to city of origin? This the first time I am hearing of an event like this.

They are the Canadian Aviation Regulator. They can easily pull the captains license and the airline AOC for not complying. It's the same authority they have to close Canadian Airspace (like after 9/11).
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keagkid101
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:02 am

Would it have been possible for the flight to have diverted to a closer airport other than YYZ? Like stopping in an allied country? US? Bahamas?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:16 am

Transport Canada, as noted above, is the regulating body of the airline and its crew. Also ... in this case ... they are the messenger.

I understand it was the Brasilian government, or its regulating body, that did not want such a "security risk" landing at their airport. Transport Canada only relayed the message. That is why the decision to return was made so long after departure, when the security breach was known less than 30 minutes after take-off.

Crew duty times would not have been a factor at all during this operation. With the crew compliment they carried and with the facilities on board, a maximum of 17 hours would have been legal.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 4):
and the airline screwed up
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 4):
airline did not prevent him from boarding

Really?

And how do you suppose Air Canada would have been aware of this? (For the record, they were not informed until after departure). It is estimated that CATSA's error cost Air Canada somewhere north of $250,000. Air Canada will not be re-imbursed for this ... and for our foreign friends, CATSA is the Canadian version of TSA ... and about as competent.
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longhauler
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 22):
Would it have been possible for the flight to have diverted to a closer airport other than YYZ? Like stopping in an allied country? US? Bahamas?

It was decided that it would be easiest for the passengers to return to AC's largest hub. Alternate arrangements can be made quicker, with more options.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ChinaClipper40
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 16):
Scare? The only thing scary about this is the establishment obsession with "security" and peoples' willingness to go along with it.

Spot on. President Eisenhower's farewell address warning about the damaging effects of a burgeoning military-industrial complex on American society must now be expanded to include the damaging effects on society of a bloated and farcical military-industrial-security complex. There is now a solidly-entrenched private sector of the U.S. economy that is making billions of dollars per year by deliberately scaring the American people about terrorist threats to the "homeland." To say nothing about self-serving politicians and government officials who do the same thing simply to get elected or to stay in office. Sadly - having lived in Canada for some years - I am getting the impression that the situation is not one whit more sane north of the border. I say all these things as a former active duty U.S. Air Force officer who took the National Security course at the U.S. Army War College. We have become a nation of sheep. While REAL security threats go completely unaddressed by those in power.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 25):
Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 22):
Would it have been possible for the flight to have diverted to a closer airport other than YYZ? Like stopping in an allied country? US? Bahamas?

It was decided that it would be easiest for the passengers to return to AC's largest hub. Alternate arrangements can be made quicker, with more options.

On a slightly related subject, I noticed AC's YYZ-IST flight on June 19 diverted to YHZ due to a medical emergency. But according to Flightaware it was east of Newfoundland and almost flew over YYT on the way back to YHZ. Wonder why they didn't divert to YYT which is a common medical diversion point?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...0/history/20140619/2025Z/CYYZ/LTBA

Also noted that the flight overnighted at YHZ and operated the next day YHZ-IST as AC2110 with about an 18 hour delay. I'm guessing that may be due to the crew running out of time with the diversion? Since YYT was about 500 miles closer than YHZ that probably would have saved about 3 hours and may have avoided the very long overnight delay and resulting hotel expenses. Expect they also had hotel expenses for the return flight which was also about 18 hours late, leaving about 0430 instead of 1045 the previous day.

Following from Tansport Canada daily occurrence reports:

At 2354Z, in the vicinity of 4715N4152W, an Air Canada Boeing 767 375 (C-GLCA/ ACA810) from Toronto, ON (CYYZ) to Istanbul (LTBA) declared medical emergency and requested to return to Halifax, NS (CYHZ). Pilot executed contingency procedures and descended from FL330 to FL280. There was no traffic and clearance was issued direct to CYHZ. Estimated time of arrival (ETA) CYHZ 0210Z.
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 17):
What a farce security is in Canada. I suppose you get what you pay for.

- Just a few months ago, the Malaysian Gov't lost a 777...
- Just a few months before that, Ethiopian officials had a hijacked aircraft situation by which a crew member hijacked a plane.
- The US had the largest security lapse in modern history in September of 2001.
- How many stow-aways have we had in the past few years in various countries around the world?

Security is effective in MOST civilized countries. However, you cannot prevent incidents from happening 100% of the time. It's not possible. Humans are NOT perfect.

This event was handled the best way I believe in my opinion. Brazil had asked that the plane be turned around, and the Transport Canada complied.

1011yyz
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lpdal
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting lnglive1011yyz (Reply 28):
- Just a few months before that, Ethiopian officials had a hijacked aircraft situation by which a crew member hijacked a plane.

But Ethiopa is in Africa and most of the countries in Africa are either third or fourth world nations, where modern facilities and adequate security is nonexistent. There's a reason DL cut many African routes, because of complete lack of standardized security. Canada is located in North America and is a highly civilized, modern, high-GDP country.

Making a comparison with Canada and a random nation in Africa is comparing apples to oranges.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:36 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 27):
On a slightly related subject, I noticed AC's YYZ-IST flight on June 19 diverted to YHZ due to a medical emergency. But according to Flightaware it was east of Newfoundland and almost flew over YYT on the way back to YHZ. Wonder why they didn't divert to YYT which is a common medical diversion point?

Medical diversions are a little different.

The condition of the patient (as best they know) is put onto a form and that form is passed up to the pilots. The pilots then start a phone patch jointly with Flight Dispatch and a medical service, and the information on the form is relayed to them. Flight Dispatch and the medical service then decide the best diversion point.

Flight Dispatch's input would be operationally related, (airport capabilities, weather, crew constraints) and the medical service's input would be related to the patient, (urgency and the medical equipment at the diversion point). Between the two, a decision is made and suggested to the Captain. The Captain usually diverts to the suggested point.

If they overflew YYT for YHZ, then there must have been a reason, because, as you suggest, YYT would have made more sense. The two most likely possibilities would be weather problems at YYT (common) or that the needs of the patient could not be satisfied in YYT, (unlikely, but possible). My guess would be weather.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Security Breach At Toronto Pearson

Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 28):
But Ethiopa is in Africa and most of the countries in Africa are either third or fourth world nations, where modern facilities and adequate security is nonexistent. There's a reason DL cut many African routes, because of complete lack of standardized security. Canada is located in North America and is a highly civilized, modern, high-GDP country.

Making a comparison with Canada and a random nation in Africa is comparing apples to oranges.

Well, I do agree with you at face value - but I counter with the fact that clearly Ethiopian flies world-wide into highly civilized, modern, high GDP countries daily, whereby those countries appear to be satisfied with the security protocols in place where the Ethiopian flights originate from.

We've seen before where countries have denied entry to airlines due to lax security, so clearly the nations who accept Ethiopian flights have deemed their security protocols as being sufficient. Perhaps we should call into question the decision making abilities of those countries too...?

I get your point though.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!

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